351 réponses à ce sujet

[ZoM_Head]

EvanKester wrote...

ZoM_Head wrote...

Eg, the M-8 and GPR need a nice buff in damage, yet so little requests for those.

Man, I see at least one request for a GPR buff daily (or.. almost daily). I try to bump every one of those. Some people seem to hate the idea of buffing it for some reason. 
I'm also seriously trying to argue for an M-8 Avenger buff, but people keep saying "it's meant to be bad". 

I just want a better baseline for Assault Rifle power level..

BS, BW will do what the community scream for. Since harriers are the kings of the castle, yet small ammo capacity makes it balanced.


GPR, M8 and Phaston need a buff.

[DullahansXMark]

I'm typing on my phone right now. Everything I say on this thing makes me sound like a soulless zealot.

[Rudest]

Great post DullahansXMark. It really does come down to build/character/power/weapon diversity.

If everything isn't on equal footing, or some comparable grounds, it takes away incentive to play anything but the top tier classes. Which would make for a dull and boring environment to play in.

[DHKany]

+10000

I think people complain so much because they are so used to the OP version, that they cant adapt.

[Fierydragon30]

I'll agree when they stop buffing the ENEMIES and NERFING the weapons and characters...
They are just changing values in small things like hp and movement speed.
They are not changing tactics which would compensate for 99% of things.(Like bumrushing,running cover from cover and etc)

[DHKany]

Fierydragon30 wrote...

I'll agree when they stop buffing the ENEMIES and NERFING the weapons and characters...
They are just changing values in small things like hp and movement speed.
They are not changing tactics which would compensate for 99% of things.(Like bumrushing,running cover from cover and etc)

the last  enemy buff I saw was months ago. And the Destroyer and the Demolisher.... still live up to their names. 
The new added units dont count. 

Modifié par DHKany, 26 octobre 2012 - 07:12 .

[DullahansXMark]

The Brute got more HP yesterday. But... Ooh, it'll now take another half a second to kill. Big deal.

[VladImpalerIII]

Simply stated:

A is B
C is not A
Therefore, C is not B

A fun game is enjoyable
Nerfing can take the fun out of the game
Therefore, nerfing can make a game not enjoyable.

The argument is deductive so the conclusion is necessary. The key premise is the second one and this is subjective to the individual. You're not going to convince someone what is enjoyable to them nor can subjective enjoyment be classified as "wrong". Who determines what is right and wrong other than the individual?

[Zjarcal]

+1

Btw I loved the way you used smileys. 

A very well thought out post that sums up the issues with balancing a game perfectly. People need to remember, balance goes in two directions, not just one.

Fierydragon30 wrote...

I'll agree when they stop buffing the ENEMIES and NERFING the weapons and characters...
They are just changing values in small things like hp and movement speed.
They are not changing tactics which would compensate for 99% of things.(Like bumrushing,running cover from cover and etc)

Yeah because they haven't also buffed plenty of weapons and characters in the balance changes... oh wait, they buffed 4 characters yesterday and most of the sniper rifles last week.

[CrutchCricket]

Yeah... no.

There's a little thing called "preference".

Believe it or not, "preference" can be a powerful factor when deciding what class/powers to play.

I play a Fury with an Arc Pistol. Is that "the best" combination? Probably not. There are arguably "easier" classes to play and more "effective" weapons to choose from.

But I still play the Fury with an Arc Pistol. Why? Because I "prefer" it.

Can I win with it (i.e. get through Silver/Gold etc)? Yes, I can. Did I need someone to nerf the GI or the Carnifex to convince me to play my Arc Pistol Fury? No.

Hmm. So I guess I don't need to be "forced" into picking something else in the name of "balance".

But wait! I can play my Arc Pistol Fury but I'm getting outscored by the GI. I don't like that. Therefore:

nerfallthethings.jpg.

Don't kid yourselves. You nerf because score. Or possibly because you percieve playing a certain build "takes no skill". Except why should you care? If it's beneath you, don't play that exact build.

[BleedingUranium]

I'm saving this thread forever, very well written!

[Arppis]

I for one, am for nerfs when they are needed...

...just don't put them on Harrier. XD

My most used guns have been nerfed in "good way" (Piranha and Harrier).

Modifié par Arppis, 26 octobre 2012 - 07:39 .

[BleedingUranium]

Arppis wrote...

I for one, am for nerfs when they are needed...

...just don't put them on Harrier. XD

My most used guns have been nerfed in "good way" (Piranha and Harrier).

But the fact that you have most used guns, and that those are most people's most used guns, says something, doesn't it?

[Dark Tlaloc]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Yeah... no.

There's a little thing called "preference".

Believe it or not, "preference" can be a powerful factor when deciding what class/powers to play.

I play a Fury with an Arc Pistol. Is that "the best" combination? Probably not. There are arguably "easier" classes to play and more "effective" weapons to choose from.

But I still play the Fury with an Arc Pistol. Why? Because I "prefer" it.

Can I win with it (i.e. get through Silver/Gold etc)? Yes, I can. Did I need someone to nerf the GI or the Carnifex to convince me to play my Arc Pistol Fury? No.

Hmm. So I guess I don't need to be "forced" into picking something else in the name of "balance".

But wait! I can play my Arc Pistol Fury but I'm getting outscored by the GI. I don't like that. Therefore:

nerfallthethings.jpg.

Don't kid yourselves. You nerf because score. Or possibly because you percieve playing a certain build "takes no skill". Except why should you care? If it's beneath you, don't play that exact build.

Agreed.

 I didn’t want to say this for fear of sounding too combative
(which it isn’t meant to be), but I’ve always assumed that a lot of the nerfing
cries were out of jealousy. Honestly, I sometimes hate playing with PUG Human
Vanguards; on bronze and silver, they just mindlessly fly around the map,
spamming NOVA and generally ignoring any semblance of team play. They ignore
hack objectives, escort objectives, etc. It’s obnoxious. But do I want them to
be nerfed? No. And do you know why? Because as annoying as it sometimes is, I’m
not forced to always play with them, and the class can be put to good use. Do I care if I’m outscored? A little; I
like to top the scoreboard. But if I don’t, I’m not upset about it, because in
the end I’d rather worry about working well with my team than scoring insanely
high.



 The other group who I’ve assumed wants nerfs is the
elitists. They play the worst class with the worst possible setup, and can
still solo Platinum, and they want to make sure that their achievements aren’t equaled
by anyone with lesser skill. Again, I’m not trying to come off as being overly
critical, but I can’t help but wonder if people get a little too proud of their
accomplishments in this game, and thus are highly protective of whatever that
may be—Whether it be a banner, YouTube video, or whatever else. If these people
don’t exist, fine, but I’m afraid that they do, and that they’re trying to make
sure the game caters specifically to them, by nerfing characters and weapons
that they don’t like, or think are too easy to use (because apparently ease of
use is a bad thing).

[Eckswhyzed]

@Crutch Cricket

I guess there's no need to buff anything, because we can all choose whatever we want to play right?

What's that you say? Buffing certain classes makes things more enjoyable and opens up more gameplay options? Sure, let's buff some things. Oh look, now we're back at the power creep issue.

[Mookiemook85]

the idea that the few people that post on these forums is actually dictating the way that a video game company is changing their game is hilarious....the scheme here has been to release a ridiculously powerful character or gun that everyone will want....forcing tryhards to spend actual money on the their lackluster store, then later nerfing it to normal or worse and everyone will move on the next big thing.

[IndigoVitare]

Dark Tlaloc wrote...
Agreed.

 I didn’t want to say this for fear of sounding too combative
(which it isn’t meant to be), but I’ve always assumed that a lot of the nerfing
cries were out of jealousy. Honestly, I sometimes hate playing with PUG Human
Vanguards; on bronze and silver, they just mindlessly fly around the map,
spamming NOVA and generally ignoring any semblance of team play. They ignore
hack objectives, escort objectives, etc. It’s obnoxious. But do I want them to
be nerfed? No. And do you know why? Because as annoying as it sometimes is, I’m
not forced to always play with them, and the class can be put to good use. Do I care if I’m outscored? A little; I
like to top the scoreboard. But if I don’t, I’m not upset about it, because in
the end I’d rather worry about working well with my team than scoring insanely
high.



 The other group who I’ve assumed wants nerfs is the
elitists. They play the worst class with the worst possible setup, and can
still solo Platinum, and they want to make sure that their achievements aren’t equaled
by anyone with lesser skill. Again, I’m not trying to come off as being overly
critical, but I can’t help but wonder if people get a little too proud of their
accomplishments in this game, and thus are highly protective of whatever that
may be—Whether it be a banner, YouTube video, or whatever else. If these people
don’t exist, fine, but I’m afraid that they do, and that they’re trying to make
sure the game caters specifically to them, by nerfing characters and weapons
that they don’t like, or think are too easy to use (because apparently ease of
use is a bad thing).

I like the balance changes. I approve of them. The only one I've ever had a problem with is the latest buff to brute health. I think it was completely unnecessary, though in practise it hasn't changed much.

I am a good player. I won't say I'm amazing, but I usually play Gold PUGs, and I usually come in the top slot, sometimes second. I'm not jealous.

I'm also not an elitist. I'm not an AMAZING player. I've never soloed Gold. I've never even played a Platinum game. It's possible I can, but I don't know, I've never tried. Nor am I interested in trying. I don't want to game to be harder, it's already hard. I think some things buffing just as much as I think some things need nerfing.

The greatest injustice you can do to a "nerfer" is call them a "nerfer". It's purely innaccurate. In about 90% of all serious, non-troll, intelligent cases the one accused of being a "nerfer" also wants things to be buffed.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT NERFING EVERYTHING. It's about BALANCE. Find out what that is. Your enjoyment is NOT hampered by the majority of nerfs. If you think it is then you are a fool. If Bioware didn't post the changes you probably wouldn't even know they happened! The Destroyer still destroys. The Piranha still chews through bosses. Tactical Cloak is still the best ability in the game. Nerfs changed none of these things.

Your personal enjoyment =/= The enjoyment of other players.

Your personal enjoyment also does not factor in to how long you're going to play the game. You may think it is, but you're still here. Lots of people are still here. Without the balance changes would this game still be as popular? I don't think so. I think most players would have quit months ago when they got bored with the Infiltrator, tried some other classes, found them impossible and given up. Balance has a demonstratably beneficial effect on a game's lifespan. You can be damn sure Bioware have the figures to prove that, or they wouldn't keep doing it.

[Eriseley]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Hmm. So I guess I don't need to be "forced" into picking something else in the name of "balance".

Conversely, you're not forced out of playing it when it's adjusted down. One would think if one were playing for preference, and gameplay remains essentially the same, one would not be particularly affected. I mean supposely you don't mind if your preference is weaker, much less simply balanced, so what's the problem?

Yet every week we see a flood of "no longer viable"/"ruined my fun"/"now I have to learn something else". I wonder why that is? I wonder why in so many of these discussions about balance, so many people say everything else in the entire game sucks and is useless except this one gun that's just "okay" and makes the game only "playable". That doesn't sound much like exploration of the game and development of preferences to me, it sounds like flocking to the flavor of the week and dismissing everything else as novelty, exactly as explained in the original post. That sounds like people hitting a difficulty level where preference takes a back seat to effectiveness.

If you want a good game that's going to last, you want players to hit that difficulty and still explore the game and use what they prefer in that difficulty. That requires balance, because most people clearly do feel swayed in what they use by what they think is effective, evidenced on these forums every single day.

Modifié par Eriseley, 26 octobre 2012 - 11:51 .

[megabeast37215]

Nice job bro... I hope the "U NERFED MY DESTROYER HERP DERP!" crowd reads this.

[Asebstos]

GTFO with your reasonable arguments and sense.

[Grunt_Platform]

Eriseley wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

Hmm. So I guess I don't need to be "forced" into picking something else in the name of "balance".

Conversely, you're not forced out of playing it when it's adjusted down. One would think if one were playing for preference, and gameplay remains essentially the same, one would not be particularly affected. I mean supposely you don't mind if your preference is weaker, much less simply balanced, so what's the problem?

Yet every week we see a flood of "no longer viable"/"ruined my fun"/"now I have to learn something else". I wonder why that is? I wonder why in so many of these discussions about balance, so many people say everything else in the entire game sucks and is useless except this one gun that's just "okay" and makes the game only "playable". That doesn't sound much like exploration of the game and development of preferences to me, it sounds like flocking to the flavor of the week and dismissing everything else as novelty, exactly as explained in the original post. That sounds like people hitting a difficulty level where preference takes a back seat to effectiveness.

If you want a good game that's going to last, you want players to hit that difficulty and still explore the game and use what they prefer in that difficulty. That requires balance.

QFT.

There are so many fun and crazy awesome kits out there with such diverse playstyles, I'm always a little skeptical when people say they can only have fun with classes like the Destroyer and the Demolisher, or weapons like the old "win button" Krysae.

[Gamemako]

Cyonan wrote...

No matter how balanced a team thinks their character is, no matter how much testing they did on it the community will almost always find something that the team just didn't think of. It's less "being incompetent" and more just a fact of making video games. It happens to the developers that are considered the best at balancing their games.

The hive mind knoweth all.

To DullahansXMark, I like your creative use of smileys. However, I do wish you'd used the Wizard in there.

VladImpalerIII wrote...

A fun game is enjoyable
Nerfing can take the fun out of the game
Therefore, nerfing can make a game not enjoyable.

The third statement is a restatement of the second because the first statement is a tautology. You could also restate the second as such: "There are areas of exclusivity between nerfed game and fun." This is easily imagined: make all enemies invincible and the game will cease to be fun for most players. That is obviously far beyond the area of concern. It does not follow from your statement, however, that all nerfs have any effect on fun.

Modifié par Gamemako, 26 octobre 2012 - 11:52 .

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

megabeast37215 wrote...

Nice job bro... I hope the "U NERFED MY DESTROYER HERP DERP!" crowd reads this.

Y U NERFED IT! 


Ok, so I overreacted. So what? It happens . I blame the smokes :innocent:

[cuzIMgood]

CrutchCricket wrote...
There's a little thing called "preference".

Believe it or not, "preference" can be a powerful factor when deciding what class/powers to play.

Balancing the game only makes your preferences even more desirable.

[DullahansXMark]

Gamemako wrote...
To DullahansXMark, I like your creative use of smileys. However, I do wish you'd used the Wizard in there.

I actually was going to. For some reason, Ninja, Bandit and Copper just sounded funnier to me.