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[TheButterflyEffect]

Stupid Christianity inspired horsecrap.

[Harle Cerulean]

What are you even complaining about at this point?

[TheButterflyEffect]

The fact that in the first game they were all namby-pamby anti sex prudes, and in the second game suddenly they're having wives and hookers? The hell?

[Dhiro]

It was never said that they couldn't marry, and I'm pretty sure that the game makes clear that Templars visiting brothels is Not Okay ™.

[TheButterflyEffect]

Then why did Pathetic Little Templar Altair say he "should have been struck by lightning" for banging the PC?

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:47 .

[Battlebloodmage]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Then why did Pathetic Little Templar Altair say he "should have been struck by lightning" for banging the PC?

It could be because he had sex outside of marriage.

[TheButterflyEffect]

Why is OK for everyone but Templars to bone non-spouses?

[Harle Cerulean]

The Templars in the first game didn't have very easy access to hookers, if you might recall - at least, not the ones we saw the most of, at the Tower. Templars having sex with mages would be an abuse of power, due to their position of authority over the mages, which is why it's supposed to be forbidden. Additionally, mages generally aren't permitted to marry, which would make it rather difficult for such relations to be chaste.

Meanwhile, there will always be people who break the rules. There have been plenty of real-life priests sworn to celibacy who have been caught with their pants down - that's basically what the Templars who are visiting the brothel are doing. It's not a Chantry-endorsed activity. And marriage, as has already been explained, is within the bounds of chastity.

I'm really not seeing what your problem is, here. There was no point, or opportunity, to showing Templars in sexual contexts in DA:O. There was in DA2. Are Bioware supposed to throw in Templars having sex just for your entertainment? It's not a Japanese erotic game, I hate to tell you.

[Harle Cerulean]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Why is OK for everyone but Templars to bone non-spouses?

Because they haven't taken vows that they wouldn't?  Seriously, you must be trolling at this point.  I'm done here.

[Wulfram]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Yeah, I think this is a case of our real-life understanding of (one) religious history creeping into our perception of the game. Those "final vows" didn't necessarily have anything to do with celibacy, though they would for a Catholic monk, nun, or priest in real life.

Except clerical celibacy still is the rule in the Chantry outside the Templars.

[brushyourteeth]

Wulfram wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Yeah, I think this is a case of our real-life understanding of (one) religious history creeping into our perception of the game. Those "final vows" didn't necessarily have anything to do with celibacy, though they would for a Catholic monk, nun, or priest in real life.

Except clerical celibacy still is the rule in the Chantry outside the Templars.

True, but you have to admit, it takes a certain amount of assumption on our part to reach the conclusion that rules for the Templars are the same thing.

There are some things that the devs/writers do that are straight-up retcon.

There are other things that always made sense to be a certain way in their minds and they never thought twice about explaining it to us until they found out we assumed something different. This could be one of those cases.

they're an order of warriors that work for the church. They aren't necessarily the church. Knowwhatimean?

[thats1evildude]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

What are you even complaining about at this point?

Do you want a list?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Why can't they do the tango with the mages? Gregoire is a real turd...

1: As previously mentioned, such a thing is inherently coersive. Not that that stopped all such arrangements, and some of them actually enjoyed each others company rather than the mage doing it because they were told to. This leads to 2: A conflict of interest. The templars are supposed to watch the mages to make sure they don't turn to forbidden magic, and kill or report them if they do. Being in a loving relationship with them really doesn't help with that.

[Emzamination]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

I'm confused here. Are Templars supposed to be chaste? Or not.

The first game made it seem like Templars were all celibate and stuff. You've got one who turns down your advances, and another who is a total virgin and says he was taught that sexuality is all "wrong" and stuff, and makes it sound like Templar vows forbid being sexual in any way.

Then in the second game, we meet Templars who've got wives and kids and stuff, and go to prostitutes. So obviously, they're familiar with the horizontal boogie.

So... I'm confused here.

He wasn't taught sexuality was wrong, just something that's not to be taken lightly or rushed into.Templars are supposed to be chaste because they are brothers in the chantry and brothers are forbidden from taking anyone but Andraste as their brides.Tho templars who were married before taking vows or entered into a chaste marriage seem to be the exception.

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...

In DA:O gave the very strong impression that they were an order of celibate (and male) warrior monks. For example, a bit of dialogue between Leliana and Alistair

Alistair: So... let me get this straight. You were a cloistered sister?
Leliana: You must have been a brother before you became a templar, no?
Alistair: I never actually became a templar. I was recruited into the Grey Wardens before I took my final vows

But then in DAA we got female Templars and in DA2 we got a married one. I think they decided to tweak the order a bit, but I can't call it a retcon since it was never explicitly established

Agreed, and backed up by the Desire Demon scene in the Tower. She bewitches the Templar precisely because he wants to have a wife and family and can't. The letter on his body (if you don't let them go) support this:"Templar Drass, your remarks in front of the recruits are only the latest in a series of troubling events. I am beginning to suspect that you may not be suited to the devotional requirements of training. Perhaps it is time for a personal evaluation of your career path within the templars. I will schedule some time after the current deployment to discuss options elsewhere in the organization."

The conversation combined with the letter is highly indicative of something more along the lines of a monastic order rather than just guardians.

[Patchwork]

Monica21 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

In DA:O gave the very strong impression that they were an order of celibate (and male) warrior monks. For example, a bit of dialogue between Leliana and Alistair

Alistair: So... let me get this straight. You were a cloistered sister?
Leliana: You must have been a brother before you became a templar, no?
Alistair: I never actually became a templar. I was recruited into the Grey Wardens before I took my final vows

But then in DAA we got female Templars and in DA2 we got a married one. I think they decided to tweak the order a bit, but I can't call it a retcon since it was never explicitly established

Agreed, and backed up by the Desire Demon scene in the Tower. She bewitches the Templar precisely because he wants to have a wife and family and can't. The letter on his body (if you don't let them go) support this:"Templar Drass, your remarks in front of the recruits are only the latest in a series of troubling events. I am beginning to suspect that you may not be suited to the devotional requirements of training. Perhaps it is time for a personal evaluation of your career path within the templars. I will schedule some time after the current deployment to discuss options elsewhere in the organization."

The conversation combined with the letter is highly indicative of something more along the lines of a monastic order rather than just guardians.

Could be that templars who want to be assigned to a Circle have to take stricter vows more in line with the ones Chantry priests swear to.

[Monica21]

Ser Bard wrote...
Could be that templars who want to be assigned to a Circle have to take stricter vows more in line with the ones Chantry priests swear to.

Maybe, but we've been given no indication that Templars have different vows based on where they serve. I didn't include this, but the Templar scribbled a note saying something about how he'll have to hunt hedge mages now, and nothing about how this will mean he may or may not have more personal freedom within the Templar order. If being reassigned meant he could have a family, then it should be enough to just ask for reassignment, right?

[TheButterflyEffect]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Why is OK for everyone but Templars to bone non-spouses?

Because they haven't taken vows that they wouldn't?  Seriously, you must be trolling at this point.  I'm done here.

Vows of what exactly? Apparently not absolute celibacy...

[TheButterflyEffect]

Monica21 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

In DA:O gave the very strong impression that they were an order of celibate (and male) warrior monks. For example, a bit of dialogue between Leliana and Alistair

Alistair: So... let me get this straight. You were a cloistered sister?
Leliana: You must have been a brother before you became a templar, no?
Alistair: I never actually became a templar. I was recruited into the Grey Wardens before I took my final vows

But then in DAA we got female Templars and in DA2 we got a married one. I think they decided to tweak the order a bit, but I can't call it a retcon since it was never explicitly established

Agreed, and backed up by the Desire Demon scene in the Tower. She bewitches the Templar precisely because he wants to have a wife and family and can't. The letter on his body (if you don't let them go) support this:"Templar Drass, your remarks in front of the recruits are only the latest in a series of troubling events. I am beginning to suspect that you may not be suited to the devotional requirements of training. Perhaps it is time for a personal evaluation of your career path within the templars. I will schedule some time after the current deployment to discuss options elsewhere in the organization."

The conversation combined with the letter is highly indicative of something more along the lines of a monastic order rather than just guardians.

This.

In the first game they were celibate, then in the second game suddenly they can get married and have sex all they want... what.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 26 octobre 2012 - 06:48 .

[Monica21]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Stupid Christianity inspired horsecrap.

What does Christianity have to do with being a Templar? There are many religious monastic orders that require celibacy, many Buddhist monks and nuns, for example. The purpose of celibacy doesn't have anything to do with Christ, but rather to focus your mind on your earthly purpose rather than being concerned about who you'll be "boning" next.

[Patchwork]

Monica21 wrote...

Ser Bard wrote...
Could be that templars who want to be assigned to a Circle have to take stricter vows more in line with the ones Chantry priests swear to.

Maybe, but we've been given no indication that Templars have different vows based on where they serve. I didn't include this, but the Templar scribbled a note saying something about how he'll have to hunt hedge mages now, and nothing about how this will mean he may or may not have more personal freedom within the Templar order. If being reassigned meant he could have a family, then it should be enough to just ask for reassignment, right?

Honest answer I think Bioware changed their mind about the templars being a celibate order after DAO came out. Trying to find a justification that works 100% is difficult because of the contradictions.

[marshalleck]

I thought the Templars in Kirkwall were known to have a rather extreme, unsavory, and atypical interpretation of their rights and role as 'guardians' of the Circle magi? That could explain the discrepancy between what we saw in Ferelden vs. Kirkwall.

[Monica21]

marshalleck wrote...

I thought the Templars in Kirkwall were known to have a rather extreme, unsavory, and atypical interpretation of their rights and role as 'guardians' of the Circle magi? That could explain the discrepancy between what we saw in Ferelden vs. Kirkwall.

Possibly, but that doesn't explain why it's "acceptable" to see prostitutes or Aveline's husband.

[Eumerin]

Monica21 wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Stupid Christianity inspired horsecrap.

What does Christianity have to do with being a Templar? There are many religious monastic orders that require celibacy, many Buddhist monks and nuns, for example. The purpose of celibacy doesn't have anything to do with Christ, but rather to focus your mind on your earthly purpose rather than being concerned about who you'll be "boning" next.

Because every religion in a fantasy setting that has cathedrals and churchs is *obviously* a straight lift of Christianity, dropped into the setting with minimal window-dressing changes just to make it look different.

/sarcasm off


On a more serious note, and away from the "it's lifted Christianity" idea, chastity within a guard organization is just flat out a good idea.  Encouraging those who guard to "keep it in their pants" in general helps to avoid situations where either a conflict of interest turns up, or situations like the one with the blood mage in the brothel.  In the real world, the US Embassy in Moscow had a problem back in the mid-'80s when a couple of the guards (US Marines) allowed some local women (who were KGB agents) access to certain areas of the embassy that weren't open to the public.

That's not to say that members of the guard organization shouldn't ever have sex.  But staying faithful to a partner will cut down tremendously on the number of potential problems.

[Scott Sion]

Monica21 wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Stupid Christianity inspired horsecrap.

What does Christianity have to do with being a Templar? There are many religious monastic orders that require celibacy, many Buddhist monks and nuns, for example. The purpose of celibacy doesn't have anything to do with Christ, but rather to focus your mind on your earthly purpose rather than being concerned about who you'll be "boning" next.

Templars are part of the Chantry and it does resemble Christianity in a lot of ways. I pulled this from the Dragon Age Wiki, it's from the page on Andraste. The whole Holy Grail/Urn of Scared ashes should have been obvious, but you would need to have read a few bible stories to the know the other ones.



[*]The story of her life in many ways mirrors that of Joan of Arc, including the manner of her death. Her role within the Chantry religion is that of a messianic Christ-figure and the vessel her ashes are contained in is presented much like the Holy Grail of Christian lore, right down to knights dying in its pursuit as they did in the Arthurian cycle. It is also guarded in a similar manner to the Grail as seen in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

[*]Similar to the Christ story, it is said that Andraste was terribly abused by the Archon's Guard before her execution, mirroring the Flagellation of Christ[7].

[*]The book called "The Search for the True Prophet" also alludes to elements of Christian lore; it is an allegory to various texts that mention the possibility of Jesus (Andraste) being just an extraordinary prophet (mage), not the Son of God (Maker's Chosen).

[*]Andraste, according to Dio Cassius, was an Icenic war goddess invoked by Boudica while fighting against the Roman occupation of Britain in AD 61. This ties in with parallels of the fictional Andraste being a tribal queen, like Boudica, and leading a military campaign against an empire (the Roman Empire/Tevinter Imperium)

Modifié par plnero, 26 octobre 2012 - 07:21 .