46 réponses à ce sujet

[masterdark30]

 Hello all, 

The main reasoning behind this thread is to discover which kind of game opening people would prefer for Dragon Age 3. I loved the varied and deep openings that Dragon Age: Origins had, they really helped to engage you in the world Bioware had built. For example, the downtrodden City Elf to the rich nobleman. They eased the player into the game world, even allowing us to explore and converse with a variety of different npcs. Later when it came time to partake in combat it felt like a natural progression rather than 'heres a sword go chop stuff'' which DA:2 forced you to do. I'd like to return to the Origins style of game opening.

To some extent i'm sure i enjoyed DA:2, i finished it twice to the end and then uninstalled it so thats something:D. The thing that got me (apart from the railroad ending) was how it all started. Before release when the devs said Hawke and his family are in a mad dash to escape Lothering i thought that would be a great way to start the game. They'd re-imagine Lothering from DA:O and have the player start the game before the darkspawn destroyed it. They'd show the capture of Sten perhaps or have villagers whisper about the arrival or departure of the Grey Warden/ the fight in the tavern. Though ultimately they would show the actual destruction of Lothering, make us form connections with its people, the surroundings and highten the desperation brought on by the approaching Darkspawn horde.
When the demo arrived i naively thought nothing of it (my mindset went alittle like this 'ok so they've obviously skipped part of the intro because they dont want to ruin it for people, thats fine) how wrong was I. Instead of the natural progression of Origins my first action was to kill darkspawn? For an action game like God of War that'd be fine but for a Dragon Age RPG? No, i dont think so anyway.       

Mass Effect 3 also took this action game approach to start an RPG. A few conversations and then you get a gun shoved in your hand and have to figure out the controls all the while explosions going off all over the place. If you dont see how broken a start to a game like this is i suggest you get a friend who hasnt played any mass effect game before and let them loose on the beginning. They could care less that the reapers are falling out of the sky and the Alliance is falling apart.  This vid helps to explain what i mean www.youtube.com/watch


The Mass Effect team had a chance to do something special. For two games they'd been teasing the players about this futuristic Earth (I cant be the only person who flew to Earth in ME1&2 to read the planet descriptions) and they completely side stepped it in the start of the game. There was no real attempt to invest the player in it politically, socially or emotionally (No no boy in air duct I didnt care about you and for those that would say 'but we live on Earth' we dont live on that Earth or at least not last i looked out the window, its a completely different world than the one we live on today).  

Same goes for DA:2, when family members/ companions explained that I should return to Lothering i'd always chuckle and say to myself 'What Lothering? The brown field in the start of the game?'. I had no reason to answer them with anything but 'No' because i didnt care about Lothering, it existed only as a memory from DA:O.

I understand Bioware may want to attract people to their games early on by having these flashy beginnings but in all honesty they just come off as cheap or budgetted. Like a movie with obvious deleted scenes.
Combat is a big part of an RPG i understand that so why is there such a rush to get to the one activity that we'll be doing the most of. ME 1&2, DA:O all have natural openings, mass effect 1 on the normandy free to explore and chat, mass effect 2 again the normandy with only movement and conversations being available and Dragon Age: Origins with conversations, movement and the inventory being available, combat came much later.   

So to Sum up:
I'm 100% not in favour of the recent Pew Pew Explosion openinings that seem to be happening in Bioware games, especially as later in the game they require you to somehow care about these tutorial areas you spent all of 5 minutes blazing through. I implore Bioware to design a starter area where the player can explore and converse safely without the need to rush into combat. Where they can fully immerse themselves in the gaming experience while learning how to play the game. Its perfectly ok to restrict the player to only a few mechanics for the intro and unlock them as they go. This is how new players learn the game and old players refamiliarize themseleves. If the story requires there be a big battle to start the game have the PC in the army camp, free to talk amongst the men about the upcoming battle. Do not put a weapon in their hands in the first few minutes *Borderlands 2 doesnt even do this and that game is all about the guns and shooting things in the face*.

P.S. Stop killing characters off at the very beginning of the game. It doesnt work. No one cares about these charcaters. People arn't that shocked when characters die in games, it happens alot. However, people are shocked when relatable well built up (through dialogue) characters die. In DA:2 it was a game requirement that failed emotionally because we didnt really know any of the characters at that point. It also didnt work in ME3 with the boy. 

[upsettingshorts]

masterdark30 wrote...

P.S. Stop killing characters off at the very beginning of the game. It doesnt work. No one cares about these charcaters. People arn't that shocked when characters die in games, it happens alot. However, people are shocked when relatable well built up (through dialogue) characters die. In DA:2 it was a game requirement that failed emotionally because we didnt really know any of the characters at that point. It also didnt work in ME3 with the boy. 

In Dragon Age 2 - less so Mass Effect 3, Shepard's reaction is pretty much locked in - the death of your sibling as well as the Templar provided you with opportunities to roleplay.  You could decide how Hawke felt about, and reacted to, these events.  If you feel that Hawke should have not cared about his sister or the Templar, you are free to choose that option.  The other characters react appropriately.  

If you don't know how Hawke would react to that event, then... how would you define roleplaying?

[Maria Caliban]

I don't care how Hawke reacts to his sibling's death as much as I care about how *I* react to that event. And yes, the death of the sibling wasn't that good for me.

Alternatively, when Bethany was taken away by the Templars, I had a rather strong reaction.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 octobre 2012 - 07:31 .

[Fredward]

At first I was all like "PEW PEW EXPLOSIONS!!!!1" but you make a good point so; slow ending. And then RIP IT AWAY FROM US IN ORGY OF BLOOD AND FIRE! XD

[MisterJB]

Quick answer: I much prefer a gradual introduction into the world of the game.
For instance, if DA3 begins with a conclave between the Chantry and the mages, I'd prefer we start either on Val Royeaux or Andoral's Reach where we are able to get to know both sides that will be involved in the meeting rather than beginning right at Conclave and suddenly, BOOM! Demons everywhere!

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't care how Hawke reacts to his sibling's death as much as I care about how *I* react to that event. And yes, the death of the sibling wasn't that good for me.

Alternatively, when Bethany was taken away by the Templars, I had a rather strong reaction.

That's fine, I suppose.  As long as we can all agree that there is a difference between the early death in DA2 you can decide your protagonist's reaction to versus the early death in ME3 which the game decides Shepard's reaction for us. 

[Terrorize69]

All depending on how the Backgrounds word... I'd love a pew pew opening..

This is war! I want to be trust into a world engulfed in conflict lol, for example..

PC is a apostate mage, shes hiding out in a small village with her family. One morning wakes up to screams and the smell of smoke, Templars are are dragging out apostate mages and killing them in the streets, burning down the houses of those that hid them.

The PCs family try's to push the PC out of a back door so she can escape while they delay the Templars, after arguing the PC is persuaded to leave. She only makes it a few feet before she hears screaming and her house goes up in flames.

She runs back to the burning house and finds her family murdered, after a moment grieving she hears the screams of other familys. She makes the choice to fight and stand up for those that can't and engages the Templars, she buys time for the rest of the villagers to escape but is wounded in the fray.

Before Templars finish her off, a group arrives and engages the Templars. After dispatching the Templars one approaches and kneels next to the PC, she checks the PCs wounds and introduces herself as Cassandra.

Modifié par Terrorize69, 26 octobre 2012 - 07:37 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Bioware loves their red shirts. Can't have a game without them.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 26 octobre 2012 - 07:39 .

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

Quick answer: I much prefer a gradual introduction into the world of the game.
For instance, if DA3 begins with a conclave between the Chantry and the mages, I'd prefer we start either on Val Royeaux or Andoral's Reach where we are able to get to know both sides that will be involved in the meeting rather than beginning right at Conclave and suddenly, BOOM! Demons everywhere!

Agreed.
But anyway, didn't ME2 started with pew pew explosions? I'd say having a Collector ship cutting the Normandy as it was butter with his beam would've put ME2's openining in the pew pew explosions openings.

[Henioo]

The endings has to be banging, but I prefer it if slides in slowly (that's what she said ) and lead to the boom, rather than just start with the boom with nowhere to go.

I.e. ME1, DA:O, GTA games, Gothic games, TES: Morrowind.

[marktcameron]

pew pew explosions openings are for retards with 2 minute attention span.

[upsettingshorts]

Professor Mark T. Cameron wrote...

pew pew explosions openings are for retards with 2 minute attention span.

Yes, the Action Prologue is a literary technique invented solely to appeal to the key mentally disadvantaged demographic and serves no other purpose.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 octobre 2012 - 07:48 .

[BrookerT]

hhh89 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Quick answer: I much prefer a gradual introduction into the world of the game.
For instance, if DA3 begins with a conclave between the Chantry and the mages, I'd prefer we start either on Val Royeaux or Andoral's Reach where we are able to get to know both sides that will be involved in the meeting rather than beginning right at Conclave and suddenly, BOOM! Demons everywhere!

Agreed.
But anyway, didn't ME2 started with pew pew explosions? I'd say having a Collector ship cutting the Normandy as it was butter with his beam would've put ME2's openining in the pew pew explosions openings.

ME1 started with the invasion of a planet, with masses of pew pew and humgonous ships. ME series is different from DA series in that way I guess

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
Agreed.
But anyway, didn't ME2 started with pew pew explosions? I'd say having a Collector ship cutting the Normandy as it was butter with his beam would've put ME2's openining in the pew pew explosions openings.

ME2 is an example of a quick and shocking opening done right.
We start up at, relatively, the same place we ended in ME1 with some dialogue to inform what has been happening. There is the old Normandy, the LI, it's a setting you identify with and it's why you are appaled when it's destroyed.
ME3 took what ME2 did right and did it spectacularly wrong. We begin the game in a place we've never been, talking to a guy we've never met before; our ship, LI and team are God knows where and we have no idea what happened between the end of ME2 and the beginning of ME3.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 octobre 2012 - 08:05 .

[upsettingshorts]

MisterJB wrote...

ME2 is an example of a quick and shocking opening done right.

That would have been a minority opinion on the Mass Effect boards prior to the release of Mass Effect 3.

...so are a lot of things said about Mass Effect 2 these days...

MisterJB wrote...

We begin the game in a place we've never been, talking to a guy we've never met before; our ship, LI and team are God knows where and we have no idea what happened between the end of ME2 and the beginning of ME3.

ME2's Arrival DLC is what happened.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 octobre 2012 - 08:07 .

[Nashimura]

Gradual Progression all the way, i dont understand the need for a big opening - when they have bought the game i dont think people will just quit after say half an hour at most because its no explosive enough for them. You dont even have to show it in advertising, if thats what they think would scare people off.

A little time in lothering talking to your family, maybe throw in a sten cameo maybe in preparation for war. Then have the cutscene where Varric explains the events in the first game (the cutscene that is already in DA2) and skip to you running from the darkspawn...

This way you get to know hawke, get to choose his dominant personality from his reactions in a stable environmental (instead of in the middle of a fight in Varrics lies) and you get to know and care about the sibling who dies.

Mass effect 3, i didnt mind it....its the 3rd game of a series and we all knew the invasion was coming - but even there, a little bit in court explaining your past actions would of been pretty cool. Its kind of weird to just find out that you are suddenly locked up.

Maria Caliban wrote....

Alternatively, when Bethany was taken away by the Templars, I had a rather strong reaction.

I cant stand that part, i grey warden her on most playthroughs now. Its not that i hate that she goes to the circle, i hate that she is taken and hawke becomes suddenly spineless after years of keeping her safe. If she had choosen to go to the circle (Something she appeared to be thinking about) I would bt more accepting, as i was with Carver joing the templars.

Modifié par Nashimura, 26 octobre 2012 - 08:12 .

[MisterJB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
ME2's Arrival DLC is what happened.

Had they showed a scene of the Normandy being aprhended and Shepard arrested, let us actually meet James Vega rather than have it be done off screen, etc, the opening to ME3 would have been better in my humble opinion.

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's fine, I suppose.  As long as we can all agree that there is a difference between the early death in DA2 you can decide your protagonist's reaction to versus the early death in ME3 which the game decides Shepard's reaction for us. 

Who dies early in ME 3?

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Who dies early in ME 3?

The kid.  He gets exploded on an evac shuttle.  Cue many, many forum threads talking about how BioWare didn't make fans feel anything.  This started back during the demo, before kid's impact on the rest of the narrative was known to anyone.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 octobre 2012 - 08:12 .

[esper]

I agree. There should have been an flee from Ostagar with Carver (Rouge/Warrior) or and daily life with Bethany in Lothering (for Mage) before the introductiton. I always felt those scenes missed and would have greatly preferred it if that had been our tutorial chapter instead of 'legend' Hawke.

You can have a 'flashy' opening, (in da:o we open with Duncan slaugthering darkspawn), but I prefer a small sense of normality, so we can get into the characther before we start the combat.

Modifié par esper, 26 octobre 2012 - 08:14 .

[fchopin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Who dies early in ME 3?

The kid.  He gets exploded on an evac shuttle.  Cue many, many forum threads talking about how BioWare didn't make fans feel anything.  This started back during the demo, before kid's impact on the rest of the narrative was known to anyone.

We don't even know if the kid is real.

[upsettingshorts]

fchopin wrote...

We don't even know if the kid is real.

Kid's realness was not in dispute before the game was released.  There were threads expressing the same feelings as this one after the demo dropped, which ended with kid getting exploded in an evac shuttle.

[Maria Caliban]

Oh right. I forgot.

I'll put it out there that while they used 'sad music' when the kid died, Shepard herself had no change in facial expression. She later dreams about the kid, but it's questionable whether she's reacting to his death or the stress of the whole 'everyone is going to die unless you save us' thing is getting to her.

To me, at least, the reaction to the sibling's death from Hawke and the kid's death from Shepard were very much the same.

[fchopin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Kid's realness was not in dispute before the game was released.  There were threads expressing the same feelings as this one after the demo dropped, which ended with kid getting exploded in an evac shuttle.

Then how come no person other than Shepard notices the kid in the game?

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

To me, at least, the reaction to the sibling's death from Hawke and the kid's death from Shepard were very much the same.

Your position makes no sense.

When Shepard sees the kid get exploded, the dialogue wheel does not pop up and give you the opportunity to decide the reaction.  Hawke gets one, and after Leandra responds if memory serves, another one. 

Shepard just puts on a grimaced expression and climbs up the Normandy's ramp and the scene ends. 

That's an objective difference.  Whether or not the player had any emotional response to either is subjective.

fchopin wrote...

Then how come no person other than Shepard notices the kid in the game?

I am not getting into a "was the kid real" argument in this thread, because it's both off topic and irrelevant. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 octobre 2012 - 08:21 .