10 réponses à ce sujet

[TheButterflyEffect]

...Why the hell did they make the worst ending decision in DAO canon.

...I want that whining, childish, crap for brains little twit to stay dead. Anora is a bajillion times better.

If he was exiled and shows up drunk at the Hanged Man in Kirkwall, he whinges about his losing his "princely status". The hell? I thought he just wanted to be normal, wanted absolutely nothing to do with the fact that his Dad was a king. He even dumps his so-called "beloved" over it.

[**Offensive word removed by mod.  Also, mod was kind enough to correct the spelling of the "Alitair" in the title**]

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 28 octobre 2012 - 06:33 .

[David Gaider]

The events of the Dragon Age novels and comics are "part of Dragon Age canon", meaning they contribute to the overall lore. They do not, however, override your game choices. Those events hay have happened very differently in your particular game continuuity... meaning that, if Alistair was dead, then the events of the Silent Grove simply never occurred. If Alistair isnn't king, the Silent Grove could have still happened... but would have occurred somewhat differently.

Does this mean the comics and novels could be referenced in your game? Possibly, but only if the context is correct... and, even then, we'd need to introduce characters and events on the assumption that you've never read the material. The Architect was introduced in Awakening assuming that the player never read the Calling, and needed to work as a new character. If you read the Calling, then great-- you would have more insight into the game. It's not designed to do more than that.

If someone really wants to assert that ancillary media cannot exist if it contradicts their personal playthrough in any fashion, then so be it. You're not required to read it. You can play Dragon Age without ever picking up the novels or comics or whatever else. It will, however, still exist. If the knowledge that there is story material out there which explores aspects of the story you didn't choose in your game (all of which are equally valid) bothers you, then you'll simply have to take a breath and either pick it up or live with it.

And please stop with the crude language. You can dislike Alistair or Anora just fine without coming across as an inbred chimp. They are characters with very human flaws, and one can imagine many reasons to dislike them both... but your many feels do not make the rules of these forums irrelevant. Thanks.

[David Gaider]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Thanks for clarifying.

Though, it's still retarded that he's acting like he wants something, that he apparently DIDN"T want so much that he kicked his "beloved" to the curb over it.

That was retarded. Anders is great because he doesn't trash a perfectly good relationship over something so completely and totally stupid.

If you expect to have a conversation with me or anyone on these forums, please modify your language accordingly. That goes for everyone here. Thanks.

[David Gaider]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Sorry. Then I'll just say... it was "dumb". That's all.

Fair enough. Opinions are precious butterflies, to be certain. My opinion is that, from Alistair's perspective, it's his "beloved" who betrays him at the Landsmeet. The woman he loved, who he thought understood him and knew that Loghain's murder of all his comrades (as well as his mentor) deserved justice, has decided that Loghain should instead be given a place in an order which, to him, represents all good things. That Loghain will be given a chance at redemption rather than the ignoble execution he deserves.

There is a point where players expect to be able to influence their companions, but I argue there should also be a point at which those companions should not bend to your every whim no matter how much they like you. They expect that you like them too, and that this means you should be as willing to do what they want as much as they're willing to do what you want. To not do so turns the character into a sock-puppet for your will, which while very gratifying to the ego wouldn't make for a very human characterization of Alistair.

Is it maddening that he disagrees with you, after having been willing to follow your lead up until that point? Absolutely. I seldom see people actually analyze the situation, however, to determine the level of their betrayal of Alistair as much as his betrayal of them. In my mind, the only thing Alistair does which is unequivocably wrong is when he up and leaves the Wardens once the decision is made. Surely the fate of the world is more important than that? Being human, however, he simply doesn't want to be in the same order that accepts Loghain... and, far more importantly, doesn't want to be near you.

Does finding Alistair drunk in Kirkwall mean he pines for power he never even wanted? Not at all. If that's what you think, I'd venture you're not reading the dialogue. He despairs at what happened, and regrets his decision to leave. He despairs the man he has become compared to what he was, or could have been. Which is pathetic, since he walked away from it, but such is the way of drunks (and forum posters) that self-awareness isn't high on their list of concerns when they're complaining about something.

That is, however, simply my opinion. Regardless of what I intended when I wrote him, people will add their own interpretations to it, and more power to them. I just simply will never respect the person who doesn't own up to the fact that there was an element of selfishness on their own part in betraying Alistair as well.

Modifié par David Gaider, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:17 .

[David Gaider]

Monica21 wrote...
Well, your first paragraph was about Alistair's perspective of Loghain (which is fine and one that I and nearly every character I RP disagree with) and your last presumes selfishness on the part of the Warden and player. Selfish how?

Selfish in that you believe your opinion is more important than Alistair's. You may believe what you're doing is for the greater good, but from Alistair's perspective you're allowing Loghain a chance at redemption which Alistair doesn't think he deserves. Alistair believes that sacrificing your life to save Ferelden is a noble deed, and that the Wardens don't need Loghain-- the very man who killed all the other Wardens and put you in this position--to do that.

So, you disagree. Alistair refuses to let it end with that, and you override him-- it's going to be what you think and his feelings are irrelevant. Is his response selfish? Even childish? That can be argued, sure, but if you believe your own actions aren't also selfish then I think you're deluding yourself. You made that determination all on your own-- you. Ignoring the wishes of the only other Grey Warden in the room, a man who is supposedly not only your friend and equal but also a man who loves you and trusts you... and assumed you trusted him. Who assumed you felt as he did, and that you agreed with him back when he said "Loghain has to die for what he's done". You may still believe you were right-- the story is written to allow you to think that, and has no clear-cut way out where everybody is made happy-- but believing you were the only arbiter to decide that is indeed selfish of you.

Don't like the word 'selfish'? How about 'arrogant'? How about 'self-righteous'? These are not mutually exclusive of people who are heroes or who might also have noble goals. If anything, Loghain is a prime example of someone who can go to their grave thinking they did the right thing even though others readily disagree. Someone can respond to that and go "nope, nope, my Warden was in the right and Alistair was a jerk to disagree with me!" ...and okay! Good for you. I'll still write in my journal about how Alistair clearly wasn't the only jerk in the room.

Modifié par David Gaider, 27 octobre 2012 - 07:58 .

[David Gaider]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Alistair's not the only other Warden in the room. There's also Riordan, and he argues that Loghain can be of use. He's also the most experienced Warden in the room: in fact a Warden who was inclined to side with Alistair might decide that he trumps both of them.

Ah, yes. I forgot about Riordan. So ignore that part, then-- it doesn't change my point.

I imagine there are few people who like to think that their hero is ever selfish... or, indeed, consider that they as a player might have selfish desires to just want the story to go their way (cue the people who translate Anora not being pliable into her also being a heinous cow). That's not "bad" per se, but it is indeed selfish.

But whatever. There's certainly no shortage of selfish players who try to place blame for hardships everywhere but themselves. I'm okay with that, personally speaking. More delicious angst that way.

[David Gaider]

Monica21 wrote...
That completely changes your point. If your original assumption is that you are making all these decisions with no input from anyone with any knowledge, then you can't disregard that Riordan is that knowledge. Therefore, your decision is not selfish, regardless of how you feel about Alistair. Your decision is based on what a senior Warden is telling you is the best course of action.

And you picked him over the man you said you loved, and who trusted you. And that doesn't constitute a betrayal on your part whatsoever. Yes, got it.

[Mary Kirby]

Persephone wrote...

It may be seen as such but, David, no friend or lover of mine could ever guilt me into killing someone. Doesn't that make a modicum of sense?

How many people did you kill just getting to the Landsmeet?

[Mary Kirby]

Monica21 wrote...

How many people does Alistair try to guilt me into killing? How many people do I kill out of self-preservation? Nobody's saying the Warden is a pacifist, but there is a distinct difference between killing people because they are trying to kill you, and killing a man who's on his knees and has just surrendered.

Did you spare Caladrius, then?

[David Gaider]

I know I contributed to this discussion, but it seems to have veered wildly away from having anything to do with DA3. Unless that happens quickly, the thread will be closed.

[David Gaider]

And we're once again no longer talking about DA3. Shutting this down.