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[Scott Sion]

Persephone wrote...

plnero wrote...

Persephone wrote...

plnero wrote...

Persephone wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

plnero wrote...

Logain never intended to help in that battle.

Wrong. He intended to charge into the battle if it looked like the plan would work. But Darkspawn kept pouring out of the Wilds, the Tower's beacon was lit late as Alistair tells us, and Cailan's group was cracking under pressure.

Had Loghain charged, the army of Ferelden would've been sandwiched between the Darkspawn.

Cailan's idiocy at the start of the battle is what doomed it to oblivion. It may not have succeeded had he not been giving idiotic orders, but he didn't help things by ruining Loghain's battle plan.

Loghain wanted Cailan to stay in the valley with the walls of Ostagar protecting Cailan's group's left and right flanks, yet Cailan ordered his men to charge out into the open. Thus their front and side flanks were exposed.

Precisely.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong there. The game makes it look like Logains were at the tower before the battle to dig that giant hole, you know the one that in no way is natural? Also, right after the meeting about the beacon Logain Says something like "Yes, it will be a great victory for us all" the way he says it you can tell he was up to no good.

Logain wanted Cailan dead because he didn't think he had what it took to be a king. Logain is clearly the type of person who is willing to sacrifice anything to keep Ferelden safe.

So you think Loghain had his men HELP THE DARKSPAWN? He, who wants TO SAVE FERELDEN, no matter the cost? No, really, NO.

He never wanted him dead. Had he wanted him dead, he'd have supported his idiotic desire to fight on the front lines.

No, he wanted the wardens dead so the beacon wouldn't be lit and he would have a good reason to pull out his men. It's because of those idiotic decision that Logain wanted him dead. He who wants to save Ferelden was willing to let someone he thought of a son die because he thought Cailan was acting like a child instead of a King.

He didn't want him dead; however ever under the circumstances he saw it as necessary. Please go play through that whole part again and tell me if you think Logain intended to swoop in. If you do then you're ignoring the obvious.

Logain knew how the battle was going to go. He didn't leave because the battle didn't go as planned; he pulled out because it was his intention from the start.

Again: No

It's already been explained why your assumptions are wrong.

No it hasn't. You people are ignoring facts to justify his betrayal.

Modifié par plnero, 27 octobre 2012 - 09:40 .

[Persephone]

plnero wrote...

Persephone wrote...

plnero wrote...

Persephone wrote...

plnero wrote...

Persephone wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

plnero wrote...

Logain never intended to help in that battle.

Wrong. He intended to charge into the battle if it looked like the plan would work. But Darkspawn kept pouring out of the Wilds, the Tower's beacon was lit late as Alistair tells us, and Cailan's group was cracking under pressure.

Had Loghain charged, the army of Ferelden would've been sandwiched between the Darkspawn.

Cailan's idiocy at the start of the battle is what doomed it to oblivion. It may not have succeeded had he not been giving idiotic orders, but he didn't help things by ruining Loghain's battle plan.

Loghain wanted Cailan to stay in the valley with the walls of Ostagar protecting Cailan's group's left and right flanks, yet Cailan ordered his men to charge out into the open. Thus their front and side flanks were exposed.

Precisely.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong there. The game makes it look like Logains were at the tower before the battle to dig that giant hole, you know the one that in no way is natural? Also, right after the meeting about the beacon Logain Says something like "Yes, it will be a great victory for us all" the way he says it you can tell he was up to no good.

Logain wanted Cailan dead because he didn't think he had what it took to be a king. Logain is clearly the type of person who is willing to sacrifice anything to keep Ferelden safe.

So you think Loghain had his men HELP THE DARKSPAWN? He, who wants TO SAVE FERELDEN, no matter the cost? No, really, NO.

He never wanted him dead. Had he wanted him dead, he'd have supported his idiotic desire to fight on the front lines.

No, he wanted the wardens dead so the beacon wouldn't be lit and he would have a good reason to pull out his men. It's because of those idiotic decision that Logain wanted him dead. He who wants to save Ferelden was willing to let someone he thought of a son die because he thought Cailan was acting like a child instead of a King.

He didn't want him dead; however ever under the circumstances he saw it as necessary. Please go play through that whole part again and tell me if you think Logain intended to swoop in. If you do then you're ignoring the obvious.

Logain knew how the battle was going to go. He didn't leave because the battle didn't go as planned; he pulled out because it was his intention from the start.

Again: No

It's already been explained why your assumptions are wrong.

No it hasn't. You people are ignoring facts to justify his betrayal.

Yeah, you keep believing that.

[Persephone]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Posting my defense of Loghain now.
*Snips*
As such, the blame falls on Bioware.
 

FANTASTIC post from start to finish. Well said!

[TEWR]

[quote]plnero wrote...

Of course he wasn't helping the Darkspawn, he was helping himself by giving himself a good reason to pull out. Where does it say a Darkspawn made that hole?[/quote]

An Ogre is a living siege engine for the Darkspawn. Why would you think an Ogre isn't possible of doing that?

Also, this:

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

But, no, they (Loghain and Uldred) had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.
[/quote]

[quote]Let me see Dialogue and toolset that proves I'm wrong. I doubt it exists, but you're welcome to try and make it appear.  [/quote]

Okay, here's what the toolset actually says.

[quote]Oh, and if you want a definite Word of God, here's a clincher:

Open the Toolset -> Open the Conversation File "den600_landsmeet.dlg"-> Look at the dialogue where you confront Loghain -> Open the Localization tab and look at comments.

PC: "You were the one who fled the battle and left him to die!"
[Coerlic mocks the PC depending on origin/race]
Loghain: "You goaded him into making the charge! He believed the tales, Warden! He thought that your handful of men would turn the tide for him, strategy and consequences be hanged!

(Comments): Genuinely angry, and grieving just a little for his friend's son. He's rather believe that it was the Warden's fault that Cailan was an idiot than Cailan's fault.

(first PC's line must be about Howe)
PC: "What do you know about justice? You left Cailan to die!
Loghain: "Warden, Cailan was Maric's son. Had there been any chance of reaching him at Ostagar, I would have fought to my last breath to save him."

(Comments): He believes this.

[Scott Sion]

1) He knows little about why the Order is necessary.


2) Cailan believed that the presence of the Wardens was enough to win the battle. In truth, it wasn't, and Ostagar using Loghain's strategy -- or even what forces they did have there -- was unwinnable. This isn't to say Ostagar couldn't have been won had more forces been present and the place better fortified. I'm certain Ostagar could've been won, had things been different.

"Cailan for all his bravado knew their was to be no victory at Ostagar"

3) The Wardens did not speak up on anything that could help fight the Darkspawn.

In what way does that mean Logain didn't intend for Cailan to die

4) Cailan ruined the battle plan.

Have to read what you said about this first. I'll edit in a second.

5) The signal fire was delayed to the point of being too late -- and not accurate, as Darkspawn were still pouring out of the Wilds. For what reason, Loghain didn't know. But based on history, he had strong inclinations as to why it was so. He was wrong, but he didn't know the real reason.

Logain Knew it was going to be delayed because he had intended it to be delayed to the point where Cailans forces would have already been destroyed. He may also have not expected it to come at all.

6) Orlais has a history of using the Wardens and the Blights as grounds to further their expansionist policies, something Loghain brings up at the first Landsmeet.

Yes, and since Logain refuses Orlais help due to what they might due, he had to take Cailan out of the picture. Again, he didn't want to; he felt he needed to.

[Solmanian]

Looks to the OP is getting over a bad breakup... seriously Anora? she's the Odina of the DAverse. She'd stab her own father in the back... Why would you want to put her on the throne? She doesn't even have a legitimate claim: her father killed the king...

[Wulfram]

If we're quoting the toolset, from the prologue

Loghain: "Yes, Cailan. A glorious moment for us all"
Comment: Said a bit ominously. Loghain knows that the coming battle is going to mean Cailan's death when he betrays the king

[Scott Sion]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]plnero wrote...

Of course he wasn't helping the Darkspawn, he was helping himself by giving himself a good reason to pull out. Where does it say a Darkspawn made that hole?[/quote]

An Ogre is a living siege engine for the Darkspawn. Why would you think an Ogre isn't possible of doing that?

Also, this:

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

But, no, they (Loghain and Uldred) had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.
[/quote]



[quote]Let me see Dialogue and toolset that proves I'm wrong. I doubt it exists, but you're welcome to try and make it appear.  [/quote]

Okay, here's what the toolset actually says.

[quote]Oh, and if you want a definite Word of God, here's a clincher:

Open the Toolset -> Open the Conversation File "den600_landsmeet.dlg"-> Look at the dialogue where you confront Loghain -> Open the Localization tab and look at comments.

PC: "You were the one who fled the battle and left him to die!"
[Coerlic mocks the PC depending on origin/race]
Loghain: "You goaded him into making the charge! He believed the tales, Warden! He thought that your handful of men would turn the tide for him, strategy and consequences be hanged!

(Comments): Genuinely angry, and grieving just a little for his friend's son. He's rather believe that it was the Warden's fault that Cailan was an idiot than Cailan's fault.

(first PC's line must be about Howe)
PC: "What do you know about justice? You left Cailan to die!
Loghain: "Warden, Cailan was Maric's son. Had there been any chance of reaching him at Ostagar, I would have fought to my last breath to save him."

(Comments): He believes this.
[/quote]

I don't know why, but it's putting my message inside you bubble

Just because they had no way of ensuring it that doesn't mean they weren't going to try. It may have been unexpected, but that may be because they didn't expect there plan to work.

(PC: "You were the one who fled the battle and left him to die!"
[Coerlic mocks the PC depending on origin/race]
Loghain: "You goaded him into making the charge! He believed the tales, Warden! He thought that your handful of men would turn the tide for him, strategy and consequences be hanged!)

Right, and that would have been the first time during the lands meet that Logain attempted to lie to get the crowd on his side.

(first PC's line must be about Howe)
PC: "What do you know about justice? You left Cailan to die!
Loghain: "Warden, Cailan was Maric's son. Had there been any chance of reaching him at Ostagar, I would have fought to my last breath to save him."

(Comments): He believes this.

He also convinces himself that the Wardens "Poisned" his daughters mind to get her help, that doesn't make it true.

Modifié par plnero, 27 octobre 2012 - 10:02 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Persephone wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Honestly, I find it easiest to let Alistair duel Loghain. That way the entire mess is bypassed and Loghain dies as he lived: a total failure.

Wow.

Just WOW.

Read The Stolen Throne.

Yes yes, he saved Ferelden and got to be a hero for a while.

Then he nearly doomed Ferelden, died, and will be forevermore remembered as the worst thing to ever happen to the country. Whatever accomplishments he once had are eclipsed by his monumental failure.

Honestly, I'd have had him executed for any one of the things he did even if I believed he was trying to do the right thing rather than use cognitive dissonance to justify things to himself. A Blight is no time to lose your sense of morality.

Also, for the people defending him: does anyone know why he specifically waits until after the signal is lit to retreat? If he couldn't see the field then there is no way he could have known whether or not retreat made tactical sense. And if he could then why did he need a signal in the first place?

[Fiacre]

Solmanian wrote...

Looks to the OP is getting over a bad breakup... seriously Anora? she's the Odina of the DAverse. She'd stab her own father in the back... Why would you want to put her on the throne? She doesn't even have a legitimate claim: her father killed the king...

No. She'll sacrifice anything if the alternative means marrying the man who murdered her father. She'll turn on the warden if they say that there's no way to spare Loghian. She'll erect a statue for Loghain if he dies, even if everyone else hates him and she'll be the only one to visit it.

And her claim is about as legitimate as that of the guy who is supposedly -- not actually proven to be -- Maric's unrecognized bastard son. And unlike Alistair, the noble's actually want her to rule. Anora is supported by default. to gain support for Alistair, you have to convince pople, and even then it's more about convincing them to support the Warden and trust his judgement rather than Alistair's ability to rule.

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

If we're quoting the toolset, from the prologue

Loghain: "Yes, Cailan. A glorious moment for us all"
Comment: Said a bit ominously. Loghain knows that the coming battle is going to mean Cailan's death when he betrays the king

That doesn't really conflict with what David Gaider's said on the subject though, where he said Loghain planned for the eventuality that he would have to leave Cailan, but didn't actually want to abandon Cailan.

[Scott Sion]

Persephone wrote...

plnero wrote...

Persephone wrote...

plnero wrote...

Persephone wrote...

plnero wrote...

Persephone wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

plnero wrote...

Logain never intended to help in that battle.

Wrong. He intended to charge into the battle if it looked like the plan would work. But Darkspawn kept pouring out of the Wilds, the Tower's beacon was lit late as Alistair tells us, and Cailan's group was cracking under pressure.

Had Loghain charged, the army of Ferelden would've been sandwiched between the Darkspawn.

Cailan's idiocy at the start of the battle is what doomed it to oblivion. It may not have succeeded had he not been giving idiotic orders, but he didn't help things by ruining Loghain's battle plan.

Loghain wanted Cailan to stay in the valley with the walls of Ostagar protecting Cailan's group's left and right flanks, yet Cailan ordered his men to charge out into the open. Thus their front and side flanks were exposed.

Precisely.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong there. The game makes it look like Logains were at the tower before the battle to dig that giant hole, you know the one that in no way is natural? Also, right after the meeting about the beacon Logain Says something like "Yes, it will be a great victory for us all" the way he says it you can tell he was up to no good.

Logain wanted Cailan dead because he didn't think he had what it took to be a king. Logain is clearly the type of person who is willing to sacrifice anything to keep Ferelden safe.

So you think Loghain had his men HELP THE DARKSPAWN? He, who wants TO SAVE FERELDEN, no matter the cost? No, really, NO.

He never wanted him dead. Had he wanted him dead, he'd have supported his idiotic desire to fight on the front lines.

No, he wanted the wardens dead so the beacon wouldn't be lit and he would have a good reason to pull out his men. It's because of those idiotic decision that Logain wanted him dead. He who wants to save Ferelden was willing to let someone he thought of a son die because he thought Cailan was acting like a child instead of a King.

He didn't want him dead; however ever under the circumstances he saw it as necessary. Please go play through that whole part again and tell me if you think Logain intended to swoop in. If you do then you're ignoring the obvious.

Logain knew how the battle was going to go. He didn't leave because the battle didn't go as planned; he pulled out because it was his intention from the start.

Again: No

It's already been explained why your assumptions are wrong.

No it hasn't. You people are ignoring facts to justify his betrayal.

Yeah, you keep believing that.

I will keep believeing that. You keep ignoring Logains obvious intent.

[TEWR]

He also convinces himself that the Wardens "Poisned" his daughters mind to get her help, that doesn't make it true.

Actually, here's what David Gaider -- the man behind Loghain -- said about the idea of him charging.

In my mind, he still wasn't certain he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so.

[Scott Sion]

An excerpt from the Dragon Age Wiki....

While on the run from Orlesian sympathizers, Maric and Loghain are captured by the Dalish, who deliver them to Flemeth. In exchange for leading them out of the Wilds, she requests that Maric make a promise to her that he may not share that knowledge with anyone. She also tells Maric that a Blight will occur one day in Ferelden, and gives Maric a cryptic warning that Loghain will betray Maric if the prince keeps him close, "each time worse than the last."

[Scott Sion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Actually, here's what David Gaider -- the man behind Loghain -- said about the idea of him charging.

In my mind, he still wasn't certain he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so.

Alright, give me the link. I'd like to see it before I admit I'm wrong.

[TEWR]

Here's the link

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Solmanian wrote...

Looks to the OP is getting over a bad breakup... seriously Anora? she's the Odina of the DAverse. She'd stab her own father in the back... Why would you want to put her on the throne? She doesn't even have a legitimate claim: her father killed the king...

Uh, no she wouldn't. She loves her father, even more than Cailan. And why should we put her on the throne? Because she's been the ruler for 5 years straight, she can't be manpulated by Eamon (A glory hunter like his nephew, Cailan) and, if you marry her to the Warden, then you start a golden age. Alistair starts nothing. His just another Cailan on the throne with nothing really effective but love from the commoners.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 27 octobre 2012 - 10:29 .

[The Elder King]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Here's the link

It's not said in this link, but do you know if Gaider ever said something about Loghain's possible involvment in Cousland's death? After all, in the link you posted Gaider said that Loghain decided to poison Eamon before Ostagar. So it's possible that the alliance with Howe was made before Ostagar.

[Monica21]

hhh89 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Here's the link

It's not said in this link, but do you know if Gaider ever said something about Loghain's possible involvment in Cousland's death? After all, in the link you posted Gaider said that Loghain decided to poison Eamon before Ostagar. So it's possible that the alliance with Howe was made before Ostagar.

I don't have the quote, but Gaider stated that Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands and his alliance with Howe was made after Ostagar.

[Zjarcal]

David Gaider wrote...

Ignoring the wishes of the only other Grey Warden in the room, a man who is supposedly not only your friend and equal but also a man who loves you and trusts you... and assumed you trusted him. 

Eh, what about wardens who never bothered befriending him and had him at -100 approval? Or are you talking exclusively about wardens who romanced him or befriended him?

Because talking about "betrayal" in a in a playthrough where you take him to -100 approval and he hates your guts is quite frankly ridiculous.

[The Elder King]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

Looks to the OP is getting over a bad breakup... seriously Anora? she's the Odina of the DAverse. She'd stab her own father in the back... Why would you want to put her on the throne? She doesn't even have a legitimate claim: her father killed the king...

Uh, no she wouldn't. She loves her father, even more than Cailan. And why should we put her on the throne? Because she's been the ruler for 5 years straight, she can't be manpulated by Eamon (A glory hunter like his nephew, Cailan) and, if you marry her to the Warden, then you start a golden age. Alistair starts nothing. His just another Cailan on the throne with nothing really effective but love from the commoners to add.

1)Eamon is maybe power-hungry, but not a glory hunter.
2)The golden age wasn't that long, since the Warden decided to travel in Thedas (and it's said that a golden age would start if they don't kill each other)
3)Alistair isn't anything like Cailan, and even less if he's hardened. That doesn't mean he'll be a good ruler (though there are better chances if hardened), but not being a good ruler=/= Cailan 2.0
I think that having Anora and an hardened Alistair ruling together is the best option for Ferelden.

[LobselVith8]

Alikain wrote...

I don't get people who choose to let loghain join the warden. Here is a man who killed his best friend son, for his own selfish reason. It's not like the son wasn't anybody but his king. For man to go that far doesn't Deserve any Honour in or death. In all my play through I killed him not because he killed the wardens but because he killed his king and kept speaking how awful the king was. Same can be said for Anora. To me they are both ungrateful.

Loghain watched Orlesians rape and murder his mother, and he was a leader in a rebellion that emancipated Ferelden from over a century of Orlesian rule. It's what lead to him becoming the Hero of River Dane. Orlais conquered Nevarra after "helping" them during the Third Blight, so it was rational for him to be concerned with Ferelden's safety in bringing Orlesian troops into Ferelden, and Cailan was going to discard his wife for Empress Celene. I spared Loghain, and he admitted his mistakes. He isn't a remorseless mobster like Howe or Caladrius.

As for Anora, she has revolutionary plans for a university and successfully refills the royal coffers; with a personality hardened Alistair who can help the elves get representation, I think they make good leaders for Ferelden.

[The Elder King]

Monica21 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Here's the link

It's not said in this link, but do you know if Gaider ever said something about Loghain's possible involvment in Cousland's death? After all, in the link you posted Gaider said that Loghain decided to poison Eamon before Ostagar. So it's possible that the alliance with Howe was made before Ostagar.

I don't have the quote, but Gaider stated that Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands and his alliance with Howe was made after Ostagar.

Thank you for the info.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Zjarcal wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Ignoring the wishes of the only other Grey Warden in the room, a man who is supposedly not only your friend and equal but also a man who loves you and trusts you... and assumed you trusted him. 

Eh, what about wardens who never bothered befriending him and had him at -100 approval? Or are you talking exclusively about wardens who romanced him or befriended him?

Because talking about "betrayal" in a in a playthrough where you take him to -100 approval and he hates your guts is quite frankly ridiculous.

Then your warden probably shouldn't feel betrayed by Alistair either, which was the complaint that sparked off this whole conversation.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

hhh89 wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

Looks to the OP is getting over a bad breakup... seriously Anora? she's the Odina of the DAverse. She'd stab her own father in the back... Why would you want to put her on the throne? She doesn't even have a legitimate claim: her father killed the king...

Uh, no she wouldn't. She loves her father, even more than Cailan. And why should we put her on the throne? Because she's been the ruler for 5 years straight, she can't be manpulated by Eamon (A glory hunter like his nephew, Cailan) and, if you marry her to the Warden, then you start a golden age. Alistair starts nothing. His just another Cailan on the throne with nothing really effective but love from the commoners to add.

1)Eamon is maybe power-hungry, but not a glory hunter.
2)The golden age wasn't that long, since the Warden decided to travel in Thedas (and it's said that a golden age would start if they don't kill each other)
3)Alistair isn't anything like Cailan, and even less if he's hardened. That doesn't mean he'll be a good ruler (though there are better chances if hardened), but not being a good ruler=/= Cailan 2.0
I think that having Anora and an hardened Alistair ruling together is the best option for Ferelden.

1) Huh, you're probably right about that one,
2) Why would Anora kill the Warden? I see no purpose.
3) Harden Alistair is better than normal Alistair but still way less useful than Anora. Anora already knows the ropes and Loghain even says she has the potential to be a bard. Why waste time on a rookie when you can have an already strong ruler to boot?