673 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

hhh89 wrote...

Did Loghain make an alliance with Howe before Ostagar?

I dispute the whole "before Ostagar poisoning" thing personally, because the timeline doesn't mesh well with that -- due to two origins stating that Loghain has been at Ostagar and has been the reason why the battles have gone so well and because Duncan says he met Eamon, which means Eamon must've been fine.

My personal headcanon for Eamon's illness brought by the poison is that he fell ill with a normal sickness -- cold, pneumonia, whatever -- and the poison in his system was able to work a lot faster because Eamon's body was already weakened.

That said, to address your question, Loghain was not involved in Howe's murder of the Couslands. I believe David Gaider did say that in the past. Indeed, Loghain only asked for Howe's political savvy to aid him -- and I find Howe to not be a politically capable person -- after Ostagar.

So no, Loghain was innocent regarding the Cousland's deaths. He only let Howe live because he wanted his aid -- both politically and militarily -- and couldn't afford to antagonize him. If he had, Howe more then likely would've launched an attack on Loghain, leading to Loghain fighting a war on three fronts: the Darkspawn, the Bannorn opposed to Loghain, and Howe's men.

That said, Howe is not the sort of man who is ever content with how much power he has. He more then likely would've betrayed Loghain eventually for more power, or sold Ferelden out to Orlais for more power.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 octobre 2012 - 10:39 .

[Scott Sion]

Alright, he may not have gone into the battle ready to betray Cailan though another post by David said he was considering it before the battle. Logain may have pulled out convincing himself it was to save his men from a losing battle, when really he did it for other reasons. It wouldn't be the first time Logain convinced himself of something to justify his actions.

[The Elder King]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...




1) Huh, you're probably right about that one,
2) Why would Anora kill the Warden? I see no purpose.
3) Harden Alistair is better than normal Alistair but still way less useful than Anora. Anora already knows the ropes and Loghain even says she has the potential to be a bard. Why waste time on a rookie when you can have an already strong ruler to boot?

2) It's stated in the epilogue that they might kill each other, if they not find a compromise in defining each other's borders in their powers. I'm not saying that it'd happen, but it's stated in the same part when the golden age part is present. Both are possible outcomes.
3)I'm never saying that Alistair would be a better ruler than Anora. I'm saying that having them ruling alone would cause some problems, in my opinion. Having them ruling together is better, again in my opinion.

[Mims]

After seeing the **** that goes down during joining rituals [IE; straight up killing a guy who decided to opt out], Alistair has some gall to suddenly take the moral high ground.

[Zjarcal]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Ignoring the wishes of the only other Grey Warden in the room, a man who is supposedly not only your friend and equal but also a man who loves you and trusts you... and assumed you trusted him. 

Eh, what about wardens who never bothered befriending him and had him at -100 approval? Or are you talking exclusively about wardens who romanced him or befriended him?

Because talking about "betrayal" in a in a playthrough where you take him to -100 approval and he hates your guts is quite frankly ridiculous.

Then your warden probably shouldn't feel betrayed by Alistair either, which was the complaint that sparked off this whole conversation.

Actually she doesn't feel betrayed, I never said that, she doesn't really care one way or the other about what Alistair does there.

It just feels like everything Mr. Gaider is posting is written on the assumption that we're talking about a warden that romanced him, not just any other warden. If that's the case then I don't really care about some of the comments he's made since they don't really include me, but otherwise it's a bit... well, unsettling.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 27 octobre 2012 - 10:49 .

[The Elder King]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Did Loghain make an alliance with Howe before Ostagar?

I dispute the whole "before Ostagar poisoning" thing personally, because the timeline doesn't mesh well with that -- due to two origins stating that Loghain has been at Ostagar and has been the reason why the battles have gone so well and because Duncan says he met Eamon, which means Eamon must've been fine.

Well, I don't find great problems for the timeline (between the Magi Origin and a dialogue with Wynne it passed one year, and it's likely than one-two months passed between the Magi Origin and Ostagar, and Jowan was caught soon after his escape), but since Gaider said that this is what happened, we'll have to believe it. Otherwise there would be no reason for me to believe that Howe and Loghain weren't allied before Ostagar, since I thought it'd be perfect sense, and killing both Bryce and Eamon will leave the Landsmeet without the two men able to really oppose Loghain at the Landsmeet. After knowing Gaider's thought, I believe that one is true, and the other is false.

[TEWR]

Alright, he may not have gone into the battle ready to betray Cailan though another post by David said he was considering it before the battle.

Of course. But he's a general. He needs to plan these things.

He never wanted to leave Cailan to die -- in fact, he wanted Cailan to see reason -- but he wasn't oblivious to the fact that through their rocky interactions and Cailan's "strategy" of relying on the Wardens for everything Cailan was more then likely going to ruin the battle and force Loghain to make a tactical withdrawal.

[Emzamination]

David Gaider wrote...

The events of the Dragon Age novels and comics are "part of Dragon Age canon", meaning they contribute to the overall lore. They do not, however, override your game choices. Those events hay have happened very differently in your particular game continuuity... meaning that, if Alistair was dead, then the events of the Silent Grove simply never occurred. If Alistair isnn't king, the Silent Grove could have still happened... but would have occurred somewhat differently.

Does this mean the comics and novels could be referenced in your game? Possibly, but only if the context is correct... and, even then, we'd need to introduce characters and events on the assumption that you've never read the material. The Architect was introduced in Awakening assuming that the player never read the Calling, and needed to work as a new character. If you read the Calling, then great-- you would have more insight into the game. It's not designed to do more than that.

If someone really wants to assert that ancillary media cannot exist if it contradicts their personal playthrough in any fashion, then so be it. You're not required to read it. You can play Dragon Age without ever picking up the novels or comics or whatever else. It will, however, still exist. If the knowledge that there is story material out there which explores aspects of the story you didn't choose in your game (all of which are equally valid) bothers you, then you'll simply have to take a breath and either pick it up or live with it.

And please stop with the crude language. You can dislike Alistair or Anora just fine without coming across as an inbred chimp. They are characters with very human flaws, and one can imagine many reasons to dislike them both... but your many feels do not make the rules of these forums irrelevant. Thanks.

Finally a direct acknowledgement, instead of vague perhaps and maybe.

Edit: Links fixed

Modifié par Emzamination, 27 octobre 2012 - 11:02 .

[Fiacre]

hhh89 wrote...

2) It's stated in the epilogue that they might kill each other, if they not find a compromise in defining each other's borders in their powers. I'm not saying that it'd happen, but it's stated in the same part when the golden age part is present. Both are possible outcomes.
3)I'm never saying that Alistair would be a better ruler than Anora. I'm saying that having them ruling alone would cause some problems, in my opinion. Having them ruling together is better, again in my opinion.

But if your Warden wouldn't get along with Anora, you wouldn't have him marry her for the Golden Age, would you?

And there are a lot of reasons to make her Queen -- she has experience ruling, the nobles love her, she's less likely to be manipulated, while the nobles support you regardless, her argument that supporting her despite deposing her father will make you look better and not as if you just have GW interests at mind makes sense, if you're an HNM, you might want to be consort... For my canon Warden it was a mix of all of the above and the fact that he was in love with her. (Which is one of the reasons I think they'll get / got along fine -- she'd be a fool to discard someone as loyal and skilled as him.)

[RaenImrahl]

@plnero (and others), please avoid the quote pyramids. Thanks!

[Monica21]

This is tangential, but this is the strangest thread I've ever posted in. I've been in plenty of "Defense of Loghain" threads, but none where I have my decisions questioned by the people who brought me the game. I'm honestly confused. Alistair and Loghain are, in my opinion, two of the best characters I've ever encountered in a video game. I may not like Alistair's naivete all that much but at least he comes by it honestly.

Now, as for Loghain, we have two books and a game where he plays a major role. The first book introduces him as someone with incredible tactical brilliance who is told by Maric that no man is more important than Ferelden, not even his king. The second book gives us insight into Loghain's entirely reasonable distrust of the Wardens. The game shows us a man who's caught in the mix of his love of country and distrust of the people who are trying to save it. For all the Wardens' knowledge, they never tell anyone why they know it's a Blight. You don't even know yourself until your dream after Ostagar. Why should Loghain trust Duncan's "feelings" especially when Duncan was part of the very same group Maric left with in The Calling?

To David Gaider and Mary Kirby, if you did not intend to make Loghain an interesting antagonist with complex motivations, then fine, but you did. Much of the reasoning behind defending Loghain relies somewhat on in-game narrative, but also on both of your statements after the game's release. Mary, I believe you were the one who specifically stated that the horde was much larger than anticipated and that Loghain did not have a full view of the valley from his position.

I won't speak for everyone, but I don't see sparing Loghain as a betrayal of Alistair, but rather Alistair's actions as a betrayal of the Grey Wardens. Alistair tells you when you first meet him that the Wardens do whatever it takes to defeat the darkspawn, but when the rubber meets the road he's not willing to go that far. That is why I spare Loghain. Because I need him and Alistair, but I can't force Alistair to stay. His choice to leave is his alone and he's the one who has to live with it.

[Monica21]

plnero wrote...

Alright, he may not have gone into the battle ready to betray Cailan though another post by David said he was considering it before the battle. Logain may have pulled out convincing himself it was to save his men from a losing battle, when really he did it for other reasons. It wouldn't be the first time Logain convinced himself of something to justify his actions.

There's a difference between being "ready to betray" Cailan and being prepared for retreat. Any commander who goes into battle without a plan for retreat is an idiot. Loghain retreated. The signal was late, the horde was much too large, and he could not intervene without losing the rest of Ferelden's army.

[Scott Sion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Alright, he may not have gone into the battle ready to betray Cailan though another post by David said he was considering it before the battle.

Of course. But he's a general. He needs to plan these things.

He never wanted to leave Cailan to die -- in fact, he wanted Cailan to see reason -- but he wasn't oblivious to the fact that through their rocky interactions and Cailan's "strategy" of relying on the Wardens for everything Cailan was more then likely going to ruin the battle and force Loghain to make a tactical withdrawal.

I still feel like he went about it wrong. He knew that the battle was likely to fail yet he still agreed to the plan.  If thought there was a possibility he was going to have to pull out his men he should have told Cailan something along the lines of "If by the time the beacon is lit it looks like a losing battle then I'm going to call off my men".   It still feels like a betrayal to me.

[The Elder King]

Fiacre wrote...



But if your Warden wouldn't get along with Anora, you wouldn't have him marry her for the Golden Age, would you?

And there are a lot of reasons to make her Queen -- she has experience ruling, the nobles love her, she's less likely to be manipulated, while the nobles support you regardless, her argument that supporting her despite deposing her father will make you look better and not as if you just have GW interests at mind makes sense, if you're an HNM, you might want to be consort... For my canon Warden it was a mix of all of the above and the fact that he was in love with her. (Which is one of the reasons I think they'll get / got along fine -- she'd be a fool to discard someone as loyal and skilled as him.)

A Warden might want to become King, and couldn't care less about Anora. If it work with her, good, If not, as assasinattion attempt will fix the issue. Or the contrary (since I'm pretty sure Anora doesn't have any feeling for the Warden, in DAO).
Another might want to become King, as he's willing to see if there's chance to find a compromise with Anora, but Anora isn't willling to share power an tries to kill the Warden. Either she succeeds or the Warden manages to survive and publicy accuse Anora.
The point is that the Warden and Anora don't know each other. You could RP that the Warden has feelings for her, but there's no hint that Anora has feeling for the Warden. There are plenty of options possible, depending on how you RP that part of the game. So the options of golden age, double murder and one survivor are all  possible.
About the quality of Anora as a rule, I'm not saying she's not good. And I'm not saying that the option of having Anora ruling alone is objectively terrible (the same for Alistair). I'm saying that in my opinion both "ruling alone" options would presents problems for the type of personality the two have, and that with the ruling together option the situation would be better. But that's only my opinion. I'm not stating this as an objective fact.

[Wulfram]

Monica21 wrote...

There's a difference between being "ready to betray" Cailan and being prepared for retreat. Any commander who goes into battle without a plan for retreat is an idiot. Loghain retreated. The signal was late, the horde was much too large, and he could not intervene without losing the rest of Ferelden's army.

If he was planning for a possible retreat,  he should have come up with a way to tell the other segment of the army that he wasn't coming.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Wulfram wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

There's a difference between being "ready to betray" Cailan and being prepared for retreat. Any commander who goes into battle without a plan for retreat is an idiot. Loghain retreated. The signal was late, the horde was much too large, and he could not intervene without losing the rest of Ferelden's army.

If he was planning for a possible retreat,  he should have come up with a way to tell the other segment of the army that he wasn't coming.

How would that have worked, and would it have saved Cailan?

[Wulfram]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

How would that have worked, and would it have saved Cailan?

I dunno.  Use Mages?  Signal arrows?  Pick a totally different plan that doesn't require the coordination of two forces that can't communicate with each other?  Launch a diversionary attack on the Darkspawn flank?  He's the supposedly brilliant General, he should be able to come up with something.

As to whether it would save Cailan, that's difficult to really know.  Probably depends if he'd have the sense to fall back soon enough.  But it at least

Modifié par Wulfram, 27 octobre 2012 - 11:22 .

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

He should have come up with a way to tell the other segment of the army that he wasn't coming.

I dunno how well that would've worked without also giving away his position to the Darkspawn, and thus having them pursue him.

And then where would he be? Up Taint creek without a paddle.

[Amirit]

David Gaider wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
That completely changes your point. If your original assumption is that you are making all these decisions with no input from anyone with any knowledge, then you can't disregard that Riordan is that knowledge. Therefore, your decision is not selfish, regardless of how you feel about Alistair. Your decision is based on what a senior Warden is telling you is the best course of action.

And you picked him over the man you said you loved, and who trusted you. And that doesn't constitute a betrayal on your part whatsoever. Yes, got it.

Sorry to interfere, but Monica21 - your Warden is not some new recruit to bend to the will of any superior. He ALONE (well, with AListair's help) just got an army. And all by himself managed not only to survive against all possible threats in the world but successfully come to the point of restoring the order in the kingdom.

And you expect that hero to suddenly forget everything he has being thorough, loose the habit to think for himself, ability to analyse situations, ignore the memory about thousands people killed by Loghain, and obey request (not even an order - even if Riordan would be allowed to give the orders here) of some Grey Warden he just saved? It looks very realistic to you? Really?

Modifié par Amirit, 27 octobre 2012 - 11:25 .

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

There's a difference between being "ready to betray" Cailan and being prepared for retreat. Any commander who goes into battle without a plan for retreat is an idiot. Loghain retreated. The signal was late, the horde was much too large, and he could not intervene without losing the rest of Ferelden's army.

If he was planning for a possible retreat,  he should have come up with a way to tell the other segment of the army that he wasn't coming.

I'm guessing no one at BioWare went to military school. Also, the sequence made for a nice cinematic, but a terrible battle plan. Who unleashes just one round of arrows? What was the signal and how does Alistair know you've missed it? Was it a timing thing or was their something specific he was supposed to look for?

Yes, you're technically right, but if the signal still hasn't been lit and you're getting crushed on the battlefield, you should probably have your own plan for retreat.

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

How would that have worked, and would it have saved Cailan?

I dunno.  Use Mages?  Signal arrows?  Pick a totally different plan that doesn't require the coordination of two forces that can't communicate with each other?  Launch a diversionary attack on the Darkspawn flank?  He's the supposedly brilliant General, he should be able to come up with something.

As to whether it would save Cailan, that's difficult to really know.  Probably depends if he'd have the sense to fall back soon enough.  But it at least

Loghain's force was the flanking attack and you were in the war council so you heard, "We'll have none of your spells, mage" from the Mother. There's a post upthread that Ethereal Writer copied from KnightofPhoenix's blog about the battle itself.

[Foolsfolly]

David Gaider wrote...

There is a point where players expect to be able to influence their companions, but I argue there should also be a point at which those companions should not bend to your every whim no matter how much they like you. They expect that you like them too, and that this means you should be as willing to do what they want as much as they're willing to do what you want. To not do so turns the character into a sock-puppet for your will, which while very gratifying to the ego wouldn't make for a very human characterization of Alistair.

I agree, sir.

Player agency is nice. But so is having characters in the game with their own opinions and goals. And relationships should be a bit give and take for both parties... or not. But then don't expect to be friends with them if you bully them around and dismiss their opinions.

Well said, sir. Well said.

... (I often marry Alistair off to the daughter of the man who killed his surrogate father figure and who happens to be his estranged brother's wife. I have no illusions that this not something either party wants and it's totally on me alone. And thanks for that option, by the way. It's deliciously absurd and quite morally grey... selling a friend into marriage and all.)

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 27 octobre 2012 - 11:34 .

[Monica21]

Amirit wrote...
Sorry to interfere, but Monica21 - your Warden is not some new recruit to bend to the will of any superior. He ALONE (well, with AListair's help) just got an army. And all by himself managed not only to survive against all possible threats in the world but successfully come to the point of restoring the order in the kingdom.

And you expect that hero to suddenly forget everything he has being thorough, loose the habit to think for himself, ability to analyse situations, ignore the memory about thousands people killed by Loghain, and obey request (not even an order - even if Riordan would be allowed to give the orders here) of some Grey Warden he just saved? It looks very realistic to you? Really?

First, I'll say that I don't believe that Loghain killed thousands of people and nor was he responsible for the deaths at Ostagar. That's all on Cailan. As for the Landsmeet, Riordan has been held prisoner by Howe, an ally of Loghain's, so he has no reason to want to spare him except out of necessity. So, yes, my Warden is thinking for herself. So is Alistair. The only person who doesn't have a choice is Loghain.

Edited for clarity.

Modifié par Monica21, 27 octobre 2012 - 11:33 .

[Fiacre]

hhh89 wrote...

A Warden might want to become King, and couldn't care less about Anora. If it work with her, good, If not, as assasinattion attempt will fix the issue. Or the contrary (since I'm pretty sure Anora doesn't have any feeling for the Warden, in DAO).
Another might want to become King, as he's willing to see if there's chance to find a compromise with Anora, but Anora isn't willling to share power an tries to kill the Warden. Either she succeeds or the Warden manages to survive and publicy accuse Anora.
The point is that the Warden and Anora don't know each other. You could RP that the Warden has feelings for her, but there's no hint that Anora has feeling for the Warden. There are plenty of options possible, depending on how you RP that part of the game. So the options of golden age, double murder and one survivor are all  possible.
About the quality of Anora as a rule, I'm not saying she's not good. And I'm not saying that the option of having Anora ruling alone is objectively terrible (the same for Alistair). I'm saying that in my opinion both "ruling alone" options would presents problems for the type of personality the two have, and that with the ruling together option the situation would be better. But that's only my opinion. I'm not stating this as an objective fact.

I was assuming that since the Epilogue slides were referenced, the Golden Age argument was founded on metagaming, inwhich case it makes no sense to put a Warden with a low likelyhood to get along with anora on the throne to get that ending. From a purely IC perspective, sure, what you said is true. I'd say though that the Warden's personaility can make one outcome far more likely than the other -- a Warden who wants more power than Anora is willing to give would have trouble with her, true, while a Warden who is willing to take what Anora gives is very likely to not have any.

To use my canon warden as an example again -- sure, he would have liked to be King, and he has no desire to stand around and play the pretty face. But he's also immensely loyal to her and perfectly content to act as an advisor rather than being given formal power (and the slide for Anora with a Warden Chancellor shows she's perfectly willing to have the Warden as her advisor). Anora would be foolish to try and kill him for... pretty much no reason at all, since he's no threat but instead a rather useful asset. And Anora isn't a fool. A Warden who wants to take her power though... Will probabl have to look out.

There's also the fact that the little bit of interaction and the consoort epilogue in awakening suggests that Anora is at least somewhat fond of the Warden, but since that is regardless of how you play your Warden it's not necessarily indicative of her relationship with all Warden consorts. (I would argue, though that it can be indicative of her relationship with a consort that she gets along with.)

And while I certainly see your reasoning for not making either of them the sole ruler, I've a preference to solve that problem via a prince-consort or a Chancellor. I'm not too fond of the Alistair and Anora match, but I'll admit, my dislike for alistair probably has to do with that. And the majority of my Wardens don't want Alistair anywhere near the throne, so they never get to test of AnoraxAlistair works.