673 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

doozerpindan wrote...

Wow, so much Alistair hate going on right here... I, personally, think Alistair is awesome, but that's just my opinion, and I'd love the option to stab Anora in the throat (she's just so petty and childish).

I like to think that the reason Alistair goes from desperately trying to get away from his heritage to finally embracing it is that he finally decides to man up and accept that, like it or not, Fereldan NEEDS a ruler, and that Anora is simply not fit for leadership. She happily throws the Warden to the wolves after the Warden rescues her, then betrays the Warden at the landsmeet, how can such a manipulitive self-serving cow be allowed to retain power that, whether she likes it or not, she is NOT - and never was - entitled to.

There's a line she comes out with during the convo where the Warden chooses between Alistair and Anora in regards to who is gonna lead fereldan, she says it after Alistair still says he doesn't want to be the king, and Anora instantly jumps in with this line (can't remember her words exactly, but it made me wanna headbutt her), showing just how petty childish and self-serving she really is, and it just makes me hate her so much more that I've never let her rule.

You've gotta remember that Alistair has been treated as unwanted and unwelcome most of his life, because Ysolde is just as retarded and self-serving as Anora (I mean, she gets about half of Redcliffe wiped out through her own selfishness and arrogance), and all Alistair has ever wanted is to be recognised as equal to everyone else. He's never known his real father, or his real mother, and because of that he's unbearably lonely, and hides it all behind a cleverly crafted mask of foolishness and constant jokes. At least, that's how I see it.

Anora is petty and childish? She is a lot of things but not that. She simply won't roll over happily and accept the loss of her position and/or her father's murder. Yeah, that is SO unreasonable. <_<

Anora not fit for leadership WHAT? As for throwing you to the wolves, she only betrays you if YOU BETRAY HER FIRST. 

But an untrained, unwilling young man who is not only illegitimate but also unfit to rule on his own is entitled to it HOW? Anora has reigned and kept Ferelden afloat since Maric died.

Please tell me you did NOT just liken Anora to Isolde.....URGH, the humanity! 

And you call Anora childish and petty......

<_<

[Fiacre]

Persephone wrote...

And you call Anora childish and petty......

<_<

I'd almost appreciate the dlicious irony, if I weren't too busy being annoyed...

[TEWR]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Alistair and Anora balance each other out, especially if the former is hardened where he begins to study governing. Anora knows how to deal with the nobles, while Alistair knows how to deal with the common man.

Aside from a Human Noble marrying Anora with a long-term plan in mind for Ferelden to truly prosper, Alistair and Anora are the best fit for Ferelden.

Ah, but can you trust Anora not to immediately sell out Alistair and pretty much everyone else if it becomes personally convenient for her?

I can't.

After the Landsmeet approved of their marriage? I doubt that'd go over well, as that'd earn her the wrath of a nation. And after Ferelden rejoices at their joint marriage? I doubt she'd do it then either, because the commoners and nobility might become upset if she were to toss aside the last known Theirin heir -- which as she knows, is more important to the nobles at times then actually being fit for the role.

She knows that the Theirin bloodline is important to the nobles and she's not stupid enough to cast aside Alistair. She agrees to the marriage if Alistair would let her rule. When Alistair starts to earnestly want to know how to be a good King -- and learns from Anora -- she's surprised.

In a good way, I imagine. 

And as of DAII, we see that seven years later Alistair and Anora are still ruling together and helping Ferelden prosper, weakened as it is.

[Icesong]

Emzamination wrote...

Hmm?

He's not using the word canon the way you and I would normally use it, he's using it to refer to the whole of DA -- the lore.

[SeptimusMagistos]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

After the Landsmeet approved of their marriage? I doubt that'd go over well, as that'd earn her the wrath of a nation. And after Ferelden rejoices at their joint marriage? I doubt she'd do it then either, because the commoners and nobility might become upset if she were to toss aside the last known Theirin heir -- which as she knows, is more important to the nobles at times then actually being fit for the role.

She knows that the Theirin bloodline is important to the nobles and she's not stupid enough to cast aside Alistair. She agrees to the marriage if Alistair would let her rule. When Alistair starts to earnestly want to know how to be a good King -- and learns from Anora -- she's surprised.

In a good way, I imagine. 

And as of DAII, we see that seven years later Alistair and Anora are still ruling together and helping Ferelden prosper, weakened as it is.

All that means is that it hasn't become personally convenient for her to double-cross him yet.

All I'm saying is that I feel like Alistair can be trusted to keep his bargains and stand by his allies. Anora, on the other hand, spent the brief time she had with my Warden misrepresenting her positions, lying about her intentions, and constantly switching sides to whichever faction looked likely to grant her most of what she wanted. I'm not willing to let anyone like that anywhere near politics.

[TheJediSaint]

You know, I count forcing Alistair to become king one of the most emotionally difficult decisions I made in the game.   My Warden basically decided that Ferelden was more important that Alistair's happiness.
After reading David's posts, I have a better undstanding of what it must've been for Alistair to have his best friend coerce him into marrying a woman he didn't know and wear a crown he didn't want.  

Forcing Alistair to be king, to this day, makes me feel guilty, David's statements actually made me feel worse. 

Well played, sir.  Well played. 

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 28 octobre 2012 - 01:18 .

[Persephone]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

All I'm saying is that I feel like Alistair can be trusted to keep his bargains and stand by his allies. Anora, on the other hand, spent the brief time she had with my Warden misrepresenting her positions, lying about her intentions, and constantly switching sides to whichever faction looked likely to grant her most of what she wanted. I'm not willing to let anyone like that anywhere near politics.

She doesn't lie to you/betray you/switch sides unless you betray her first. She is a queen. She will defend her crown.

Erm....it TAKES SOMEONE LIKE THAT to succeed at politics. Especially as a woman. In Medieval times. In a time of crisis. Just ask Elizabeth I. Or Catherine the Great. Or never mind, according to you a brilliant ruler like that should be kept away from politics.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

After the Landsmeet approved of their marriage? I doubt that'd go over well, as that'd earn her the wrath of a nation. And after Ferelden rejoices at their joint marriage? I doubt she'd do it then either, because the commoners and nobility might become upset if she were to toss aside the last known Theirin heir -- which as she knows, is more important to the nobles at times then actually being fit for the role.

She knows that the Theirin bloodline is important to the nobles and she's not stupid enough to cast aside Alistair. She agrees to the marriage if Alistair would let her rule. When Alistair starts to earnestly want to know how to be a good King -- and learns from Anora -- she's surprised.

In a good way, I imagine. 

And as of DAII, we see that seven years later Alistair and Anora are still ruling together and helping Ferelden prosper, weakened as it is.

All that means is that it hasn't become personally convenient for her to double-cross him yet.

At what point does it become personally convenient to double-cross her publically approved husband, who if memory serves basically does what she tells him? (According to the epilogue, anyway.)

[SeptimusMagistos]

Persephone wrote...

She doesn't lie to you/betray you/switch sides unless you betray her first.

Untrue. The terms of our agreement were that I rescue her and in exchange she helps us stop Loghain, who she claims to agree is a threat. This is an agreement she apparently refuses to honor unless I agree to make her queen and spare Loghain the Traitor.

Also, revealing that Arl Howe kidnapped Anora in no way constitutes a betrayal. It was an attempt to bring my Master Coercion into play that got badly derailed by Anora's meddling. What does she even have to gain? If Loghain's lieutenant believes we're just some random murderers she'll attack anyway, in which case Anora either gets captured or killed because the archers assumed she's one of us. Revealing her identity apparently does nothing to stop her from sneaking away, so all she manages to do is ruin whatever chance there was of ending the situation peacefully.

Persephone wrote...

She is a queen. She will defend her crown.

By lying and double-crossing, yes. Which is why I'm taking her crown away.

Persephone wrote...

Erm....it TAKES SOMEONE LIKE THAT to succeed at politics. Especially as a woman. In Medieval times. In a time of crisis. Just ask Elizabeth I. Or Catherine the Great. Or never mind, according to you a brilliant ruler like that should be kept away from politics.

Yeah, no. In my Thedas all politicians are honest, straightforward with their intentions and loyal to their allies. Those who fail that test tend to end up on the wrong end of a fight.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Persephone wrote...

She doesn't lie to you/betray you/switch sides unless you betray her first.

Untrue. The terms of our agreement were that I rescue her and in exchange she helps us stop Loghain, who she claims to agree is a threat. This is an agreement she apparently refuses to honor unless I agree to make her queen and spare Loghain the Traitor.

You are trying to fire her and kill her father. Can you really blame her?

Also, revealing that Arl Howe kidnapped Anora in no way constitutes a betrayal. It was an attempt to bring my Master Coercion into play that got badly derailed by Anora's meddling. What does she even have to gain? If Loghain's lieutenant believes we're just some random murderers she'll attack anyway, in which case Anora either gets captured or killed because the archers assumed she's one of us. Revealing her identity apparently does nothing to stop her from sneaking away, so all she manages to do is ruin whatever chance there was of ending the situation peacefully.

"If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed. And my people will insist on escorting me to the palace, where my father may also have me killed."

Whether or not Loghain actually intended to do so, and whether or not she thought he did, you are still lucky she's willing to work with you after you do the one thing she told you could get her ended.

Persephone wrote...

She is a queen. She will defend her crown.

By lying and double-crossing, yes. Which is why I'm taking her crown away.

Persephone wrote...

Erm....it TAKES SOMEONE LIKE THAT to succeed at politics. Especially as a woman. In Medieval times. In a time of crisis. Just ask Elizabeth I. Or Catherine the Great. Or never mind, according to you a brilliant ruler like that should be kept away from politics.

Yeah, no. In my Thedas all politicians are honest, straightforward with their intentions and loyal to their allies. Those who fail that test tend to end up on the wrong end of a fight.

You are aware there's fan questions about Eamon's intentions in putting Alistair forward? And that there's plenty of other backstabbers you need a politician capable of dealing with? The ones in Tevinter and Orlais? The ones you never get a chance to gank? (At least not yet?)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2012 - 01:49 .

[Persephone]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Persephone wrote...

She doesn't lie to you/betray you/switch sides unless you betray her first.

Untrue. The terms of our agreement were that I rescue her and in exchange she helps us stop Loghain, who she claims to agree is a threat. This is an agreement she apparently refuses to honor unless I agree to make her queen and spare Loghain the Traitor.

Persephone wrote...

She is a queen. She will defend her crown.

By lying and double-crossing, yes. Which is why I'm taking her crown away.

Persephone wrote...

Erm....it TAKES SOMEONE LIKE THAT to succeed at politics. Especially as a woman. In Medieval times. In a time of crisis. Just ask Elizabeth I. Or Catherine the Great. Or never mind, according to you a brilliant ruler like that should be kept away from politics.

Yeah, no. In my Thedas all politicians are honest, straightforward with their intentions and loyal to their allies. Those who fail that test tend to end up on the wrong end of a fight.

Imagine it....... A queen who won't roll over and let you dethrone her with a demure smile..... And even more UNNATURAL, a daughter who will not support her father's would-be-murderer. Oh, people can be SO unreasonable.

Ahahahaha. Good luck against Empress Celene. (Among other rulers) :lol::lol:

[SeptimusMagistos]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You are trying to fire her and kill her father. Isn't it amazing the difference a little connotation can make?

I kept my end of the bargain we made and let her present her case for why I should go with her proposal. She proceeded to lie about what she considers to be necessary conditions for her support and once again switch sides at the trial.

If someone won't be upfront with me about their intentions, how can I trust them to be a good ruler?

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

"If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed. And my people will insist on escorting me to the palace, where my father may also have me killed."

Whether or not Loghain actually intended to do so, and whether or not she thought he did, you are still lucky she's willing to work with you after you do the one thing she told you could get her ended.

If she hadn't snuck away and we lost that fight then Loghain's men would have found out who she was anyway.

SInce she did sneak away sabotaging my negotiations just seems like a pointless gesture of malevolence.

Persephone wrote...

You are aware there's fan questions about Eamon's intentions in putting Alistair forward?

Oh, I fully expect him to dictate policy.

I also expect that if he asks Alistair to do something that goes against Alistair's morals Alistair will put his foot down and remind Eamon who's king around here.

The whole point of putting Alistair on the throne is that I trust him to do what's right instead of what's convenient.

[Persephone]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Oh, I fully expect him to dictate policy.

I also expect that if he asks Alistair to do something that goes against Alistair's morals Alistair will put his foot down and remind Eamon who's king around here.

The whole point of putting Alistair on the throne is that I trust him to do what's right instead of what's convenient.

Yeah no.

And that's a rather naive view of how politics work. Romantic and idealistic to be sure.

But again, you consider rulers like Elizabeth I. to be unfit to rule because she knew how to play the game. So that effectively ends my interest in your opinion on anything political.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]SeptimusMagistos wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You are trying to fire her and kill her father. Isn't it amazing the difference a little connotation can make?[/quote]

I kept my end of the bargain we made and let her present her case for why I should go with her proposal. She proceeded to lie about what she considers to be necessary conditions for her support and once again switch sides at the trial.

If someone won't be upfront with me about their intentions, how can I trust them to be a good ruler?[/quote]

If they will, how do you expect them to deal with Tevinter and Orlais?

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

"If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed. And my people will insist on escorting me to the palace, where my father may also have me killed."

Whether or not Loghain actually intended to do so, and whether or not she thought he did, you are still lucky she's willing to work with you after you do the one thing she told you could get her ended.[/quote]

If she hadn't snuck away and we lost that fight then Loghain's men would have found out who she was anyway.

SInce she did sneak away sabotaging my negotiations just seems like a pointless gesture of malevolence. [/quote]

It's not pointless. You pointed her out, so she needed a distraction, and you did something she interpreted as trying to get her killed.
[quote]
[quote]

You are aware there's fan questions about Eamon's intentions in putting Alistair forward?[/quote]

Oh, I fully expect him to dictate policy.

I also expect that if he asks Alistair to do something that goes against Alistair's morals Alistair will put his foot down and remind Eamon who's king around here.

The whole point of putting Alistair on the throne is that I trust him to do what's right instead of what's convenient.
[/quote] [/quote]


Is that what you think the point of putting him on the throne is? Or what Eamon thinks the point of putting him on the throne is? My original point being that despite your efforts, you haven't managed to remove political manuvering from the game. Also, you seem to have missed my edit regarding needing an experienced politician to deal with Orlais and Tevinter. (Sorry, I didn't think of it until after I posted. I tend to do that.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2012 - 02:03 .

[zambingo]

Alistair is rad and I love that he's king. While I get that Hand Waving Canon can be annoying, I don't really care too much. More Alistair everyday of the week, pls. sans the "I ate all the cheese in the world" appearance from DA2 of course. Alistair looks like Jamie Bamber not a fat pig nose cheese face.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Persephone wrote...
Yeah no.

And that's a rather naive view of how politics work. Romantic and idealistic to be sure.

But again, you consider rulers like Elizabeth I. to be unfit to rule because she knew how to play the game. So that effectively ends my interest in your opinion on anything political.

Hey, is it so werid that given the choice between a skilled liar and a bumbling hero I pick the latter every time? In the long run his honesty and loyalty are worth way more than whatever administrative competence Anora claims to bring to the table.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Yeah no.

And that's a rather naive view of how politics work. Romantic and idealistic to be sure.

But again, you consider rulers like Elizabeth I. to be unfit to rule because she knew how to play the game. So that effectively ends my interest in your opinion on anything political.

Hey, is it so werid that given the choice between a skilled liar and a bumbling hero I pick the latter every time? In the long run his honesty and loyalty are worth way more than whatever administrative competence Anora claims to bring to the table.

I'm sorry Persephone, he's right. Honest kings are much better than competent ones.

(Problem?)

[Gallimatia]

Persephone wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

All I'm saying is that I feel like Alistair can be trusted to keep his bargains and stand by his allies. Anora, on the other hand, spent the brief time she had with my Warden misrepresenting her positions, lying about her intentions, and constantly switching sides to whichever faction looked likely to grant her most of what she wanted. I'm not willing to let anyone like that anywhere near politics.

She doesn't lie to you/betray you/switch sides unless you betray her first. She is a queen. She will defend her crown.

Erm....it TAKES SOMEONE LIKE THAT to succeed at politics. Especially as a woman. In Medieval times. In a time of crisis. Just ask Elizabeth I. Or Catherine the Great. Or never mind, according to you a brilliant ruler like that should be kept away from politics.

She lies about Loghain. She lets the Warden think he could be a threat to her life and may have signed off on Howe's plan when she knows full well that's not the case.

[Persephone]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Yeah no.

And that's a rather naive view of how politics work. Romantic and idealistic to be sure.

But again, you consider rulers like Elizabeth I. to be unfit to rule because she knew how to play the game. So that effectively ends my interest in your opinion on anything political.

Hey, is it so werid that given the choice between a skilled liar and a bumbling hero I pick the latter every time?

Yeah. Because bumbling heroes tend to be lousy politicians/rulers. Empress Celene would have him for breakfast. Anora has kept Ferelden afloat, free, prosperous and stable for years after King Maric was lost at sea. She has proven her competence. And for a country in turmoil, competence, experience, ability and wits matter more than romantic, naive idealism.

I usually get them to marry. Best solution for everyone involved. Esp. Ferelden.

[tmp7704]

Persephone wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

And you picked him over the man you said you loved, and who trusted you. And that doesn't constitute a betrayal on your part whatsoever. Yes, got it.

It may be seen as such but, David, no friend or lover of mine could ever guilt me into killing someone. Doesn't that make a modicum of sense?

That made me curious enough to question -- does it mean you cannot picture yourself ever in a situation in which you'd allow your very good friend and/or lover to take revenge on a person who'd in cold blood murdered their entire family or caused them similar level of grief?

I don't see it as "guilting you" into anything. To me it's more them demanding to let them take what could be viewed 'rightfully' theirs, after what the murderer  had done. With your objection being more of a third party butting in what's a very personal matter between these two.

The situation with Garrus/Sidonis in ME2 would be probably an analogy here.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 octobre 2012 - 02:15 .

[Persephone]

Gallimatia wrote...

Persephone wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

All I'm saying is that I feel like Alistair can be trusted to keep his bargains and stand by his allies. Anora, on the other hand, spent the brief time she had with my Warden misrepresenting her positions, lying about her intentions, and constantly switching sides to whichever faction looked likely to grant her most of what she wanted. I'm not willing to let anyone like that anywhere near politics.

She doesn't lie to you/betray you/switch sides unless you betray her first. She is a queen. She will defend her crown.

Erm....it TAKES SOMEONE LIKE THAT to succeed at politics. Especially as a woman. In Medieval times. In a time of crisis. Just ask Elizabeth I. Or Catherine the Great. Or never mind, according to you a brilliant ruler like that should be kept away from politics.

She lies about Loghain. She lets the Warden think he could be a threat to her life and may have signed off on Howe's plan when she knows full well that's not the case.

No, she does not. If you have Loghain on Friendly, he confirms that Howe urged him to have her killed but that he would never have considered that at any point. He also points out that Anora had no way of knowing that at the time.

[Mr.House]

Putting only Alistair on the throne is pretty much giving Eamon the throne. He's also a traitor. The only smart action is putting Harden Alistair and Anora on the throne(Or Alistair and Human Noble/Anora and Human noble)). That way Eamon won't be able to have any sway in court and Alistair will be able to resist his help and listen to Anora, who is a great leader and has alot of evidence to back her claim up, more so when Eamon, the one who wants the throne and is using Alistair admits she really ruling the land, not Cailan.

Alistair also lies but hey it's ok if it's him I guess?

[mousestalker]

Persephone wrote...

Yeah. Because bumbling heroes tend to be lousy politicians/rulers. Empress Celene would have him for breakfast. Anora has kept Ferelden afloat, free, prosperous and stable for years after King Maric was lost at sea. She has proven her competence. And for a country in turmoil, competence, experience, ability and wits matter more than romantic, naive idealism.

I usually get them to marry. Best solution for everyone involved. Esp. Ferelden.

I do that too. But it's mostly because Alistair dumped my very first Warden for being an elf. It's payback. Yes it's petty. Don't care.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

If they will, how do you expect them to deal with Tevinter and Orlais?

By being honest with their enemies, loyal to their allies, and beloved by their country?

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

It's not pointless. You pointed her out, so she needed a distraction, and you did something she interpreted as trying to get her killed.

Right. She chose to do whatever was convenient to her personally instead of sticking by my plan to get us all out. I was determined to get her to Eamon's estate safely come hell or high water. Apparently she didn't reciprocate.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Is that what you think the point of putting him on the throne is? Or what Eamon thinks the point of putting him on the throne is? My original point being that despite your efforts, you haven't managed to remove political manuvering from the game. Also, you seem to have missed my edit regarding needing an experienced politician to deal with Orlais and Tevinter. (Sorry, I didn't think of it until after I posted. I tend to do that.)

I trust Alistair to do what's right. That's why I put him on the throne. Why other people did it isn't really relevant to me and won't be unless I get to pick who gets their jobs.

[Persephone]

tmp7704 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

And you picked him over the man you said you loved, and who trusted you. And that doesn't constitute a betrayal on your part whatsoever. Yes, got it.

It may be seen as such but, David, no friend or lover of mine could ever guilt me into killing someone. Doesn't that make a modicum of sense?

That made me curious enough to question -- does it mean you cannot picture yourself ever in a situation in which you'd allow your very good friend and/or lover to take revenge on a person who'd in cold blood murdered their entire family? .

First, I do not share the view that Loghain murdered the people Alistair considered his family. In cold blood or otherwise.

No, I could not picture that. I do not believe in murder/revenge. Revenge twists and taints your very core like a plague.

“Revenge is barren of itself: it is the dreadful food it feeds on; its delight is murder, and its end is despair.”
Friedrich von Schiller

That answers your question, I guess.