673 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

If they will, how do you expect them to deal with Tevinter and Orlais?

By being honest with their enemies, loyal to their allies, and beloved by their country?

Tell me another fairy tale. Honestly, you think being honest and sweet and kind with EMPRESS CELENE will not have dire political consequences? Esp. given Ferelden's political isolation?

[Foolsfolly]

Persephone wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

And you picked him over the man you said you loved, and who trusted you. And that doesn't constitute a betrayal on your part whatsoever. Yes, got it.

It may be seen as such but, David, no friend or lover of mine could ever guilt me into killing someone. Doesn't that make a modicum of sense?

That made me curious enough to question -- does it mean you cannot picture yourself ever in a situation in which you'd allow your very good friend and/or lover to take revenge on a person who'd in cold blood murdered their entire family? .

First, I do not share the view that Loghain murdered the people Alistair considered his family. In cold blood or otherwise.

No, I could not picture that. I do not believe in murder/revenge. Revenge twists and taints your very core like a plague.

“Revenge is barren of itself: it is the dreadful food it feeds on; its delight is murder, and its end is despair.”
Friedrich von Schiller

That answers your question, I guess.

His actions directly led to their deaths.

Although you've now made me want BioWare to add a character you can spare that comes back and bites you hard in the ass. Like that person ends up killing another known NPC.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

If they will, how do you expect them to deal with Tevinter and Orlais?

By being honest with their enemies, loyal to their allies, and beloved by their country?

With the Tevinters and the Orlesians? People who make lying and backstabbing a game? Can you at least understand why I might think that not being an experienced politician is a problem?

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

It's not pointless. You pointed her out, so she needed a distraction, and you did something she interpreted as trying to get her killed.

Right. She chose to do whatever was convenient to her personally instead of sticking by my plan to get us all out. I was determined to get her to Eamon's estate safely come hell or high water. Apparently she didn't reciprocate.

Yeah, but the game doesn't let you explain that to her. Besides, according to Persephone she might have honestly believed she was in danger from your choice. (I'm taking her word, I don't remember that dialogue option.)

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Is that what you think the point of putting him on the throne is? Or what Eamon thinks the point of putting him on the throne is? My original point being that despite your efforts, you haven't managed to remove political manuvering from the game. Also, you seem to have missed my edit regarding needing an experienced politician to deal with Orlais and Tevinter. (Sorry, I didn't think of it until after I posted. I tend to do that.)

I trust Alistair to do what's right. That's why I put him on the throne. Why other people did it isn't really relevant to me and won't be unless I get to pick who gets their jobs.

I guess. (But make sure you harden him first or Eamon probably wins.)

[Persephone]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Persephone wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

And you picked him over the man you said you loved, and who trusted you. And that doesn't constitute a betrayal on your part whatsoever. Yes, got it.

It may be seen as such but, David, no friend or lover of mine could ever guilt me into killing someone. Doesn't that make a modicum of sense?

That made me curious enough to question -- does it mean you cannot picture yourself ever in a situation in which you'd allow your very good friend and/or lover to take revenge on a person who'd in cold blood murdered their entire family? .

First, I do not share the view that Loghain murdered the people Alistair considered his family. In cold blood or otherwise.

No, I could not picture that. I do not believe in murder/revenge. Revenge twists and taints your very core like a plague.

“Revenge is barren of itself: it is the dreadful food it feeds on; its delight is murder, and its end is despair.”
Friedrich von Schiller

That answers your question, I guess.

His actions directly led to their deaths.

I also disagree with that. Casualities of war aren't victims of murder. A tactical retreat is not murder.

[Emzamination]

Icesong wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Hmm?

He's not using the word canon the way you and I would normally use it, he's using it to refer to the whole of DA -- the lore.

Hmmmm I... understand

[Foolsfolly]

Persephone wrote...

I also disagree with that. Casualities of war aren't victims of murder. A tactical retreat is not murder.

It was treason.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I also disagree with that. Casualities of war aren't victims of murder. A tactical retreat is not murder.

It was treason.

It was avoiding the Sunk-Cost Fallacy.

[Persephone]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

If they will, how do you expect them to deal with Tevinter and Orlais?

By being honest with their enemies, loyal to their allies, and beloved by their country?

With the Tevinters and the Orlesians? People who make lying and backstabbing a game? Can you at least understand why I might think that not being an experienced politician is a problem?

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

It's not pointless. You pointed her out, so she needed a distraction, and you did something she interpreted as trying to get her killed.

Right. She chose to do whatever was convenient to her personally instead of sticking by my plan to get us all out. I was determined to get her to Eamon's estate safely come hell or high water. Apparently she didn't reciprocate.

Yeah, but the game doesn't let you explain that to her. Besides, according to Persephone she might have honestly believed she was in danger from your choice. (I'm taking her word, I don't remember that dialogue option.)

The dialogue can be seen here:

www.youtube.com/watch

[tmp7704]

Persephone wrote...

First, I do not share the view that Loghain murdered the people Alistair considered his family. In cold blood or otherwise.

No, I could not picture that. I do not believe in murder/revenge. Revenge twists and taints your very core like a plague.

“Revenge is barren of itself: it is the dreadful food it feeds on; its delight is murder, and its end is despair.”
Friedrich von Schiller

That answers your question, I guess.

I see. Wouldn't you then agree that's basically forcing your own viewpoint/ethics on your supposed friend/lover, in a matter much more important to them than it is to you? And so they could be perhaps justified to be very upset by your stance?

[Persephone]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I also disagree with that. Casualities of war aren't victims of murder. A tactical retreat is not murder.

It was treason.

A tactical retreat isn't treason either.

[Mr.House]

Foolsfolly wrote...

His actions directly led to their deaths.

Although you've now made me want BioWare to add a character you can spare that comes back and bites you hard in the ass. Like that person ends up killing another known NPC.

If Cailan had listended to Loghain and didn't act dumb, he would have survived. That battle was unwinnable, too many darkspawn, Loghain made the right call to retreat and make sure majority of the army survived. It was Cailans own fault he was on the front line despite being told not to.

[Persephone]

tmp7704 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

First, I do not share the view that Loghain murdered the people Alistair considered his family. In cold blood or otherwise.

No, I could not picture that. I do not believe in murder/revenge. Revenge twists and taints your very core like a plague.

“Revenge is barren of itself: it is the dreadful food it feeds on; its delight is murder, and its end is despair.”
Friedrich von Schiller

That answers your question, I guess.

I see. Wouldn't you then agree that's basically forcing your own viewpoint/ethics on your supposed friend/lover, in a matter much more important to them than it is to you? And so they could be perhaps justified to be very upset by your stance?

I'd rather not stand by and watch anyone I care about be poisoned by vengeance and bloodlust. It's just as important to me. Sure they can be upset and I do not fault them for it. It will not lessen my resolve however.

[Mr.House]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I also disagree with that. Casualities of war aren't victims of murder. A tactical retreat is not murder.

It was treason.

No, what Cailan and Eamon where doing in secret was treason. Retreating the bulk of the army because the battle was unwinnable and to prepare is not treason. More so when the king down there decided to be down there and refuse to listen to a smarter man then him.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Although you've now made me want BioWare to add a character you can spare that comes back and bites you hard in the ass. Like that person ends up killing another known NPC.

Too late, Rockstar beat them to it.

(In all seriousness, I think the Architect will probably qualify.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2012 - 02:26 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

With the Tevinters and the Orlesians? People who make lying and backstabbing a game? Can you at least understand why I might think that not being an experienced politician is a problem?

Kind of. According to game theory the 'tough but honest' strategy tends to win over outright backstabbing in the long run. For instance, Anora lost any chance to be queen by backstabbing me. Once she did it once I knew I could never trust her again and made all my plans with the assumption she would screw me over. But I remained honest with everyone, including her. It worked out for me and not for Anora.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Yeah, but the game doesn't let you explain that to her. Besides, according to Persephone she might have honestly believed she was in danger from your choice. (I'm taking her word, I don't remember that dialogue option.)

Again, I understand why she did what she did. It just means I can't trust her anymore.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I guess. (But make sure you harden him first or Eamon probably wins.)

Hardening him would erode his motivation to do the right thing, so never!

[Foolsfolly]

Persephone wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I also disagree with that. Casualities of war aren't victims of murder. A tactical retreat is not murder.

It was treason.

A tactical retreat isn't treason either.

It's not a tactical retreat. He came up with a strategy with his liege lord and then quit the field when his lord was boxed in with no ability to retreat.

He didn't make a tactical retreat. He made a "I can now usurp this Orlisian apologist and secure Ferelden against the Blight and beyond."

It was treason. It was regicide.

[Foolsfolly]

Mr.House wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I also disagree with that. Casualities of war aren't victims of murder. A tactical retreat is not murder.

It was treason.

No, what Cailan and Eamon where doing in secret was treason. Retreating the bulk of the army because the battle was unwinnable and to prepare is not treason. More so when the king down there decided to be down there and refuse to listen to a smarter man then him.

Ok, I forgot I'm on topsy-turvey world. **** reason on the BSN.

[Persephone]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I also disagree with that. Casualities of war aren't victims of murder. A tactical retreat is not murder.

It was treason.

A tactical retreat isn't treason either.

It's not a tactical retreat. He came up with a strategy with his liege lord and then quit the field when his lord was boxed in with no ability to retreat.

He didn't make a tactical retreat. He made a "I can now usurp this Orlisian apologist and secure Ferelden against the Blight and beyond."

It was treason. It was regicide.

Cailan DECIDED to be on the FRONT LINES against Loghain's advice. His death is his own responsibility.

It was neither of those things. It was practical as well as necessary. Even Cailan knew Ostagar to be a lost cause.

[Gallimatia]

Persephone wrote...

Gallimatia wrote...

She lies about Loghain. She lets the Warden think he could be a threat to her life and may have signed off on Howe's plan when she knows full well that's not the case.

No, she does not. If you have Loghain on Friendly, he confirms that Howe urged him to have her killed but that he would never have considered that at any point. He also points out that Anora had no way of knowing that at the time.

No you got this backwards. Loghain pretty much tells the Warden that he told Anora about Howe's plan not that she had no way of knowing about it. Even if he had not it would not be reasonble for Anora to think of him as a possible cause of her death simply on account of their relationship.

Warden: Were you really going to kill Anora?
Loghain: ...Howe suggested the possibility; I rejected it, of course. Undoubtedly, that discussion was the inspiration for her story.

How could it be the inspiration for her story if she did not know about it? How would Loghain know she knew about it if not because he told her?

[TEWR]

Persephone wrote...

Honestly, you think being honest and sweet and kind with EMPRESS CELENE will not have dire political consequences? Esp. given Ferelden's political isolation?

Depends. In DAO, she was described as an expansionist like Drakon. In DAII, it seems she actually wants to aid Ferelden and is on their side.

But total honesty with her would be a bad move, as it would with other rulers. You can never know just what your allies are planning.

Howe is a case in point. Ally and friend to the Couslands, but they were unaware that he would betray them.

And that's a rather naive view of how politics work

Especially in a land where the throne has limited power. And that limited power is given to it by the Bannorn.

Because bumbling heroes tend to be lousy politicians/rulers

Or they're good politicians, but are outclassed.

I'd say Ned Stark was a good politician -- though I haven't read the first SoIaF book, and only have a vague recollection of the GoT Ned Stark -- who was outclassed by so many people.

Due in large part to his "Honor before Reason" mentality.

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

By being honest with their enemies, loyal to their allies, and beloved by their country?

That would not work at all in Orlais or Tevinter.

[Persephone]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I guess. (But make sure you harden him first or Eamon probably wins.)

Hardening him would erode his motivation to do the right thing, so never!

Egads. That means he is entirely Eamon's puppet and the likes of Empress Celene will outmaneuvre him as easily as taking candy from a baby.

[Persephone]

Gallimatia wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Gallimatia wrote...

She lies about Loghain. She lets the Warden think he could be a threat to her life and may have signed off on Howe's plan when she knows full well that's not the case.

No, she does not. If you have Loghain on Friendly, he confirms that Howe urged him to have her killed but that he would never have considered that at any point. He also points out that Anora had no way of knowing that at the time.

No you got this backwards. Loghain pretty much tells the Warden that he told Anora about Howe's plan not that she had no way of knowing about it. Even if he had not it would not be reasonble for Anora to think of him as a possible cause of her death simply on account of their relationship.

Warden: Were you really going to kill Anora?
Loghain: ...Howe suggested the possibility; I rejected it, of course. Undoubtedly, that discussion was the inspiration for her story.

How could it be the inspiration for her story if she did not know about it? How would Loghain know she knew about it if not because he told her?

Warden: Why would she make up such a story?
Loghain: I didn't say that. Etc.

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Ok, I forgot I'm on topsy-turvey world. **** reason on the BSN.

Normally, I'd agree and say the BSN is where logic comes to die.

But not on this. Cailan fought in a battle of his own volition, apparently knowing full well it wouldn't work and was thus banking purely on luck to win the day.

You fight on the front lines, chances are you may pay the price for that. War is not selective in who she kills. War is hell on earth.

And I can certainly see the Eamon-Cailan talks of Cailan abandoning Anora and going to Celene as being high treason. It's a naive notion to think that this'd go over smoothly when at this time there is an incredibly tumultuous history between the two nations.

And as we see in DAII, had Cailan actually done that, many Orlesian nobles would be happy. Loghain's paranoia was correct -- regarding people other then Celene I anyway.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

With the Tevinters and the Orlesians? People who make lying and backstabbing a game? Can you at least understand why I might think that not being an experienced politician is a problem?

Kind of. According to game theory the 'tough but honest' strategy tends to win over outright backstabbing in the long run. For instance, Anora lost any chance to be queen by backstabbing me. Once she did it once I knew I could never trust her again and made all my plans with the assumption she would screw me over. But I remained honest with everyone, including her. It worked out for me and not for Anora.

She isn't just a backstabber. She's a politician. She knows better than to backstab unless she doesn't have any other option. And as I previously mentioned, she didn't percieve one when you told Cauthrien who she was, or when you threatened to off her father.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Yeah, but the game doesn't let you explain that to her. Besides, according to Persephone she might have honestly believed she was in danger from your choice. (I'm taking her word, I don't remember that dialogue option.)

Again, I understand why she did what she did. It just means I can't trust her anymore.

Because she tries to play two people she had good reason to believe were trying to kill her against each other.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I guess. (But make sure you harden him first or Eamon probably wins.)

Hardening him would erode his motivation to do the right thing, so never!

The alternative is that he just lets Eamon make all the decisions, whether or not those decisions are the right thing. You seem to think that black-and-white morality can work in Thedas. Before you even get to Lothering you should be aware that it doesn't.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2012 - 02:44 .

[TEWR]

How could it be the inspiration for her story if she did not know about it? How would Loghain know she knew about it if not because he told her?

IIRC, Erlina says that Howe was talking about killing Anora and blaming it on Eamon. It's not a stretch for Anora to think that because Howe is talking about doing such a thing, that Loghain must've approved it.

As we know, Erlina and Anora are more then just a servant and Queen. Erlina is Anora's confidant.

She's wrong, of course to believe Loghain would do such a thing. But Howe is hardly the sort to keep his thoughts hidden to himself after he's gotten control of the better portion of the Coastlands.