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[tmp7704]

Persephone wrote...

Cailan DECIDED to be on the FRONT LINES against Loghain's advice. His death is his own responsibility.

Cailan has given Loghain option to hold off and take the battle at latter date, with the help of troops from Orlais. Loghain has refused that, essentially forcing the battle there and then.

Responsibility for Cailan's death is pretty much shared between them. They're both stubborn and unwilling to compromise.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

Responsibility for Cailan's death is pretty much shared between them. They're both stubborn and unwilling to compromise.

I suppose that's fair, but if you look at Orlais' history of using the Blights and Wardens as pretenses to "aid" a nation and never leave -- seen in Kirkwall, Nevarra, other parts of the Free Marches IIRC, and IIRC the Anderfels as well -- Loghain's refusal of Orlesian aid during Ostagar and after is extremely understandable.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Loghain's refusal of Orlesian aid during Ostagar and after is extremely understandable.

Sure, but he could've easily just used that as excuse to postpone the battle until later if he was truly concerned with the king's well-being and feared/predicted the battle was too dangerous to take. There's a thousand excuses he could've come up with to not accept the help from Orlais afterwards.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 octobre 2012 - 02:49 .

[Gallimatia]

Persephone wrote...

Gallimatia wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Gallimatia wrote...

She lies about Loghain. She lets the Warden think he could be a threat to her life and may have signed off on Howe's plan when she knows full well that's not the case.

No, she does not. If you have Loghain on Friendly, he confirms that Howe urged him to have her killed but that he would never have considered that at any point. He also points out that Anora had no way of knowing that at the time.

No you got this backwards. Loghain pretty much tells the Warden that he told Anora about Howe's plan not that she had no way of knowing about it. Even if he had not it would not be reasonble for Anora to think of him as a possible cause of her death simply on account of their relationship.

Warden: Were you really going to kill Anora?
Loghain: ...Howe suggested the possibility; I rejected it, of course. Undoubtedly, that discussion was the inspiration for her story.

How could it be the inspiration for her story if she did not know about it? How would Loghain know she knew about it if not because he told her?

Warden: Why would she make up such a story?
Loghain: I didn't say that. Etc.

Yes she didn't make it up because Howe and Loghain discussed it. This discussion inspired Anora's story where Loghain potentially goes through with it by virtue of Loghain telling Anora about Howe's idiocy. Presumably because he wanted Anora to be on her guard around Howe. Anora knew Loghain would not help Howe kill her or any some such and lied about it. The alternative is that she's a terrible judge of character which would be much worse for a Queen.

[TEWR]

I doubt he could've postponed the battle without suffering the Darkspawn invading. It was probably going to be a now or never thing there no matter what. Even had he said "Sure... we'll wait a while", the Darkspawn probably would've invaded the fortress and overrun it.

Unless Loghain ordered the Mages to destroy the lower levels of the Tower of Ishal and prepped his men to withstand a siege. But still... I'm not sure if that would've worked very well. Given how it seems the Army doesn't seem capable of withstanding a siege and appearing ill-prepared, the battle would've probably failed just as much.

Nevertheless, Cailan shot down Duncan's reminder of Eamon being less then a week away, and I'm supposed to believe he'll wait for Orlesian reinforcements, who are going to take a longer amount of time to get to Ostagar?

Eh... doesn't really fly that well.

Yes she didn't make it up because Howe and Loghain discussed it. This discussion inspired Anora's story where Loghain potentially goes through with it by virtue of Loghain telling Anora about Howe's idiocy. Presumably because he wanted Anora to be on her guard around Howe. Anora knew Loghain would not help Howe kill her or any some such and lied about it. The alternative is that she's a terrible judge of character which would be much worse for a Queen.

Reposting my last post on the previous page:

IIRC, Erlina says that Howe was talking about killing Anora and blaming it on Eamon. It's not a stretch for Anora to think that because Howe is talking about doing such a thing, that Loghain must've approved it.

As we know, Erlina and Anora are more then just a servant and Queen. Erlina is Anora's confidant.

She's wrong, of course to believe Loghain would do such a thing. But Howe is hardly the sort to keep his thoughts hidden to himself after he's gotten control of the better portion of the Coastlands.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 octobre 2012 - 03:01 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Gallimatia wrote...

Yes she didn't make it up because Howe and Loghain discussed it. This discussion inspired Anora's story where Loghain potentially goes through with it by virtue of Loghain telling Anora about Howe's idiocy. Presumably because he wanted Anora to be on her guard around Howe. Anora knew Loghain would not help Howe kill her or any some such and lied about it. The alternative is that she's a terrible judge of character which would be much worse for a Queen.

But how did she know Howe wouldn't just kill her anyway?

[Gallimatia]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Gallimatia wrote...

Yes she didn't make it up because Howe and Loghain discussed it. This discussion inspired Anora's story where Loghain potentially goes through with it by virtue of Loghain telling Anora about Howe's idiocy. Presumably because he wanted Anora to be on her guard around Howe. Anora knew Loghain would not help Howe kill her or any some such and lied about it. The alternative is that she's a terrible judge of character which would be much worse for a Queen.

But how did she know Howe wouldn't just kill her anyway?

She did not which is why she had Eamon's men kill Howe. Well it's one more reason to have him killed anyway.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 28 octobre 2012 - 03:07 .

[Foolsfolly]

Persephone wrote...

Cailan DECIDED to be on the FRONT LINES against Loghain's advice. His death is his own responsibility.

It was neither of those things. It was practical as well as necessary. Even Cailan knew Ostagar to be a lost cause.

My last stab at reason. He stopped Templars from taking a known blood mage then hired that blood mage to poison an arl. This delayed the Redcliffe forces from arriving. This is Loghain setting the field. He also made promises to Uldred although at this time I cannot for the life of me remember what they were but he promised the Circle some measure of freedom for helping Loghain.

These things happened BEFORE Ostagar. Emon had not shown and although the Warden is alseep for a day or two and whatever the trip to Lothering that was still enough time for the knights of Redcliffe to all be gone and reach at least Lothering in search for the Urn as a cure to the poison. The poisoning happens prior to Ostagar.

There's also the bit about Howe in Highever which got at least some of the Highever forces delayed. Not the advanced party that left with Bryce's oldest child but the rest were still in the castle when Howe's forces started flashing their daggers.

All of these things prove that Loghain had taken active steps against his King before the Warden even arrived in Ostagar. And even in dialogue Loghain tells the Warden he's hoping Cailan can listen to reason. Which in Loghain's mind means "This isn't a blight and you cannot allow the Orlasians into this country."

Cailan continues to correctly assume this is a Blight. He also incorrectly continues to listen to the advice of the war hero Loghain who's plan puts a smaller porition of the forces at the Ostagar while the others turn and quit the field.

He also saves lives by taking out Eamon and the Couslands that means the forces of Highever, Howe's forces from Amaranthine, and Eamon's forces from Redcliffe are not sacrificed. In Loghain's mind this is an acceptable cost to keep the Orliasans out of his country.

And it all comes down to the Orliasians. All the way to the Landsmeet he's still raving about them even accusing the Warden of being a mouth-piece of the Emperess (which is absurd for every origin).

His actions were treason. He killed all those at Ostagar. And that's even without the notes from the Empress that Return to Ostagar added which hint heavily that Anora could not bring Cailan an heir and perhaps he would leave Loghain's daughter for the Orlisan Empress... which would be completely unacceptable for Loghain.

[Persephone]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Cailan DECIDED to be on the FRONT LINES against Loghain's advice. His death is his own responsibility.

It was neither of those things. It was practical as well as necessary. Even Cailan knew Ostagar to be a lost cause.

My last stab at reason. He stopped Templars from taking a known blood mage then hired that blood mage to poison an arl. This delayed the Redcliffe forces from arriving. This is Loghain setting the field. He also made promises to Uldred although at this time I cannot for the life of me remember what they were but he promised the Circle some measure of freedom for helping Loghain.

These things happened BEFORE Ostagar. Emon had not shown and although the Warden is alseep for a day or two and whatever the trip to Lothering that was still enough time for the knights of Redcliffe to all be gone and reach at least Lothering in search for the Urn as a cure to the poison. The poisoning happens prior to Ostagar.

There's also the bit about Howe in Highever which got at least some of the Highever forces delayed. Not the advanced party that left with Bryce's oldest child but the rest were still in the castle when Howe's forces started flashing their daggers.

All of these things prove that Loghain had taken active steps against his King before the Warden even arrived in Ostagar. And even in dialogue Loghain tells the Warden he's hoping Cailan can listen to reason. Which in Loghain's mind means "This isn't a blight and you cannot allow the Orlasians into this country."

Cailan continues to correctly assume this is a Blight. He also incorrectly continues to listen to the advice of the war hero Loghain who's plan puts a smaller porition of the forces at the Ostagar while the others turn and quit the field.

He also saves lives by taking out Eamon and the Couslands that means the forces of Highever, Howe's forces from Amaranthine, and Eamon's forces from Redcliffe are not sacrificed. In Loghain's mind this is an acceptable cost to keep the Orliasans out of his country.

And it all comes down to the Orliasians. All the way to the Landsmeet he's still raving about them even accusing the Warden of being a mouth-piece of the Emperess (which is absurd for every origin).

His actions were treason. He killed all those at Ostagar. And that's even without the notes from the Empress that Return to Ostagar added which hint heavily that Anora could not bring Cailan an heir and perhaps he would leave Loghain's daughter for the Orlisan Empress... which would be completely unacceptable for Loghain.

The poisoning of Eamon is a leftover from a cut plot that had nothing to do with Ostagar. And its timing is still debated, because the timeline is completeley botched.

Promises to Ulrdred? Loghain himself clarifies that what Uldred did was not supported by him whatsoever when Wynne blames him for it. And it makes sense.

He had nothing to do with what happened at Highever. Nada. Zip. Zero.

Loghain hoping that Cailan (Whom he defends if the Warden calls him a fool) will hear reason means that he wants him to stay away from the front lines. And yeah, not bargaining with Ferelden's enemy is also pretty wise.

Cailan doesn't listen to Loghain. Why else is he insisting on staying on the front lines against his general's insistent advice?

He accuses the Wardens of being Orlesian puppets. And after reading "The Calling", I can see why.

His actions were prudent, given what he knows and is not told by Duncan.

He did not kill anyone at Ostagar. That falls on Cailan's shoulders. As well as the secrecy of the Wardens.

And he did not know of the dealings with the Empress. And yes, it would be unacceptable. Those dealings actually ARE treason. Never mind my disgust at Cailan pulling a Henry VIII there.

Modifié par Persephone, 28 octobre 2012 - 03:32 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Cailan DECIDED to be on the FRONT LINES against Loghain's advice. His death is his own responsibility.

It was neither of those things. It was practical as well as necessary. Even Cailan knew Ostagar to be a lost cause.

My last stab at reason. He stopped Templars from taking a known blood mage then hired that blood mage to poison an arl. This delayed the Redcliffe forces from arriving. This is Loghain setting the field. He also made promises to Uldred although at this time I cannot for the life of me remember what they were but he promised the Circle some measure of freedom for helping Loghain.

Freedom from the Chantry.

As for Uldred, the deal according to Gaider (who wrote this bit, if I remember correctly) was that Uldred would be in charge of lighting the beacon, and if Loghain determined the battle was already lost he'd send a message to Uldred not to light it so he couldn't be blamed. That's not treason, it's the Sunk-Cost Fallacy. You don't sacrifice living soldiers to save dead ones.

These things happened BEFORE Ostagar. Emon had not shown and although the Warden is alseep for a day or two and whatever the trip to Lothering that was still enough time for the knights of Redcliffe to all be gone and reach at least Lothering in search for the Urn as a cure to the poison. The poisoning happens prior to Ostagar.

The explanation Gaider gave was that he got the impression Cailan was going to do something stupid (he does not yet know what) and incapacitates Eamon so he can't act as a sort of party whip for Cailan's faction. He was not planning to stage an open rebellion, because he didn't realize just how bad it would be. (My understanding is that smaller, weaker countries merging with larger ones ends with the stronger country in control, this is bad news for Ferelden what with the chevaliers and nobility who do not feel responsible to their subjects.)

There's also the bit about Howe in Highever which got at least some of the Highever forces delayed. Not the advanced party that left with Bryce's oldest child but the rest were still in the castle when Howe's forces started flashing their daggers.

That was Howe, not Loghain. Already covered in previous posts.

All of these things prove that Loghain had taken active steps against his King before the Warden even arrived in Ostagar. And even in dialogue Loghain tells the Warden he's hoping Cailan can listen to reason. Which in Loghain's mind means "This isn't a blight and you cannot allow the Orlasians into this country."

Cailan continues to correctly assume this is a Blight. He also incorrectly continues to listen to the advice of the war hero Loghain who's plan puts a smaller porition of the forces at the Ostagar while the others turn and quit the field.

Ditching was plan B: but that's already covered too.

He also saves lives by taking out Eamon and the Couslands that means the forces of Highever, Howe's forces from Amaranthine, and Eamon's forces from Redcliffe are not sacrificed. In Loghain's mind this is an acceptable cost to keep the Orliasans out of his country.

You mean Cailan keeps them out, or Loghain keeps them out? Because a second ago you were blaming Loghain for not them not being here, though I've already covered that.

And it all comes down to the Orliasians. All the way to the Landsmeet he's still raving about them even accusing the Warden of being a mouth-piece of the Emperess (which is absurd for every origin).

His actions were treason. He killed all those at Ostagar. And that's even without the notes from the Empress that Return to Ostagar added which hint heavily that Anora could not bring Cailan an heir and perhaps he would leave Loghain's daughter for the Orlisan Empress... which would be completely unacceptable for Loghain.

I don't think you've offered any evidence that hasn't been previously covered on this thread, apart from Uldred which wasn't all that convincing, and Jowan, who Gaider had gotten to.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2012 - 03:37 .

[legbamel]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Cailan DECIDED to be on the FRONT LINES against Loghain's advice. His death is his own responsibility.

It was neither of those things. It was practical as well as necessary. Even Cailan knew Ostagar to be a lost cause.

My last stab at reason. He stopped Templars from taking a known blood mage then hired that blood mage to poison an arl. This delayed the Redcliffe forces from arriving. This is Loghain setting the field. He also made promises to Uldred although at this time I cannot for the life of me remember what they were but he promised the Circle some measure of freedom for helping Loghain.

These things happened BEFORE Ostagar. Emon had not shown and although the Warden is alseep for a day or two and whatever the trip to Lothering that was still enough time for the knights of Redcliffe to all be gone and reach at least Lothering in search for the Urn as a cure to the poison. The poisoning happens prior to Ostagar.

There's also the bit about Howe in Highever which got at least some of the Highever forces delayed. Not the advanced party that left with Bryce's oldest child but the rest were still in the castle when Howe's forces started flashing their daggers.

All of these things prove that Loghain had taken active steps against his King before the Warden even arrived in Ostagar. And even in dialogue Loghain tells the Warden he's hoping Cailan can listen to reason. Which in Loghain's mind means "This isn't a blight and you cannot allow the Orlasians into this country."

Cailan continues to correctly assume this is a Blight. He also incorrectly continues to listen to the advice of the war hero Loghain who's plan puts a smaller porition of the forces at the Ostagar while the others turn and quit the field.

He also saves lives by taking out Eamon and the Couslands that means the forces of Highever, Howe's forces from Amaranthine, and Eamon's forces from Redcliffe are not sacrificed. In Loghain's mind this is an acceptable cost to keep the Orliasans out of his country.

And it all comes down to the Orliasians. All the way to the Landsmeet he's still raving about them even accusing the Warden of being a mouth-piece of the Emperess (which is absurd for every origin).

His actions were treason. He killed all those at Ostagar. And that's even without the notes from the Empress that Return to Ostagar added which hint heavily that Anora could not bring Cailan an heir and perhaps he would leave Loghain's daughter for the Orlisan Empress... which would be completely unacceptable for Loghain.

Yes, yes, and yes.  Loghain set the stage by preventing a large part of the army needed from arriving.  It's a distinct possibility that, knowing about the tunnels under the Tower of Ishal, he counted on the Darkspawn cutting off any retreat.

Did he mean to kill Cailan or just wipe out the Wardens (and any of the troops that happened to be fighting with them)?  Maybe.  In that scenario his admonition that the king should stay off the front lines makes sense.  But regardless of his intentions, it was his direct actions that brought about the deaths of a large number of Wardens and Fereldens, including their king.  To my eyes, he never intended to take the field and it's just as likely he was surpised the beacon got lit at all.

[mauro2222]

They guy had a grudge against Orlais, he was capable of burning Ferelden to the ground before seeing an orliasian in HIS land.

Modifié par mauro2222, 28 octobre 2012 - 03:39 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

mauro2222 wrote...

They guy had a grudge against Orlais, he was capable of burning Ferelden to the ground before seeing an orliasian in HIS land.

Very likely, but that's not why he didn't charge.

Well, it's part of it, but the rest of his reason (it would have basically destroyed Ferelden's army to no gain) would have been more than sufficient.

[AlexanderCousland]

David Gaider wrote...

I just simply will never respect the person who doesn't own up to the fact that there was an element of selfishness on their own part in betraying Alistair as well.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.

Mr. Gaider  youre Assuming that  most players considered Alistair a Friend, let alone worthy of a Crown. If I had considered Alistair a friend to my warden, then I suppose I would feel like i betrayed him. However, I saw him as a spineless lackey with corny jokes. In order to betray Alistair, In my opinion, I would have had to felt a sense of loyalty to him. I judged Lohgain with the kind of mindset Genevieve judged Duncan with, Alistair did not agree with my descision so he had to go.  

[Monica21]

legbamel wrote...
Yes, yes, and yes.  Loghain set the stage by preventing a large part of the army needed from arriving.

Which "large part of the army"? Eamon's? That same army that Cailan refused because "Eamon just wants in on the glory"? If Cailan had called Eamon's troops sooner then he wouldn't have been in Redcliffe to poison.

[Dragoonlordz]

Loghain tried to kill my warden that is enough on it's own for me to kill him off and in every playthrough that is what I did.

[legbamel]

Monica21 wrote...

legbamel wrote...
Yes, yes, and yes.  Loghain set the stage by preventing a large part of the army needed from arriving.

Which "large part of the army"? Eamon's? That same army that Cailan refused because "Eamon just wants in on the glory"? If Cailan had called Eamon's troops sooner then he wouldn't have been in Redcliffe to poison.

Unless you're saying he had no idea what Howe was up to, he was losing out on both Eamon's and Teryn Couseland's troops.  I don't believe the timing is made clear on just how long before the big battle Eamon was poisoned but I certainly believe Loghain would have found a way for it to happen on their long march south to Ostagar if he couldn't manage it at Redcliffe.  Seems to me it would be easier to have it happen in camp than at home, though he might have had to find a different willing dupe to do it.

[Persephone]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Loghain tried to kill my warden that is enough on it's own for me to kill him off and in every playthrough that is what I did.

I'm guessing you killed Zevran too?

*Snerks*

Whatever.

Loghain sure keeps the debates alive. Most controversial character Bioware ever created.

[Persephone]

legbamel wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

legbamel wrote...
Yes, yes, and yes.  Loghain set the stage by preventing a large part of the army needed from arriving.

Which "large part of the army"? Eamon's? That same army that Cailan refused because "Eamon just wants in on the glory"? If Cailan had called Eamon's troops sooner then he wouldn't have been in Redcliffe to poison.

Unless you're saying he had no idea what Howe was up to, he was losing out on both Eamon's and Teryn Couseland's troops. 

He had no idea of Howe's little scheme to eradicate the Couslands.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Loghain tried to kill my warden that is enough on it's own for me to kill him off and in every playthrough that is what I did.

It could be, yes. It's perfectly rational to kill people you think are a threat to you. This is just a discussion of whether or not Loghain is pure evil, which seems to have stemmed from whether his daughter is a backstabbing b****, which seems to have stemmed from whether Alistair can properly run a country. (If memory serves.)

Edit: Or were you talking about killing a non-threat for petty reasons? That I don't approve of. I do it just for laughs when I'm playing as an evil character, but I don't try to paint it as justified in-universe. What I meant is that a Warden who thinks Zevran or Loghain might try to kill them has every right to get pre-emptive.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2012 - 04:01 .

[Foolsfolly]

...he also blames the Wardens for killing Cailan instead of saying they were simply overrun by the darkspawn and then crowned himself regent instead of falling in line behind the rightful queen....

[Dragoonlordz]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Loghain tried to kill my warden that is enough on it's own for me to kill him off and in every playthrough that is what I did.

It could be, yes. It's perfectly rational to kill people you think are a threat to you. This is just a discussion of whether or not Loghain is pure evil, which seems to have stemmed from whether his daughter is a backstabbing b****, which seems to have stemmed from whether Alistair can properly run a country. (If memory serves.)

Most of my playthroughs I make Alistair king and married to Anora. I always kill Loghain in every single playthrough and I always let Zevran live. Make of that what you will. I am a fair person though, I always kill him while naked and using fisticuffs while he has his armour and sword, so I did give him a chance not that he deserves one since he is a big stinky poo poo head.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Foolsfolly wrote...

...he also blames the Wardens for killing Cailan instead of saying they were simply overrun by the darkspawn and then crowned himself regent instead of falling in line behind the rightful queen....

He deluded himself into thinking the Wardens were responsible for Cailan being an idiot, because it's easier to wrap his head around than his best friend's son being an idiot on his own. Also, apparently the Wardens have been known to work with Orlais in the past. Besides, Anora fell in line behind him, since he's the general, not her. A general is what the country needs at the moment.

[Monica21]

legbamel wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

legbamel wrote...
Yes, yes, and yes.  Loghain set the stage by preventing a large part of the army needed from arriving.

Which "large part of the army"? Eamon's? That same army that Cailan refused because "Eamon just wants in on the glory"? If Cailan had called Eamon's troops sooner then he wouldn't have been in Redcliffe to poison.

Unless you're saying he had no idea what Howe was up to, he was losing out on both Eamon's and Teryn Couseland's troops.  I don't believe the timing is made clear on just how long before the big battle Eamon was poisoned but I certainly believe Loghain would have found a way for it to happen on their long march south to Ostagar if he couldn't manage it at Redcliffe.  Seems to me it would be easier to have it happen in camp than at home, though he might have had to find a different willing dupe to do it.

I'm not sure how many times it's been brought up in this thread, but it's been clearly stated that Loghain did not know about Howe's attack on the Couslands and only allied himself with Howe after Ostagar. And don't forget that Fergus had already left with Highever's soldiers. That's the reason Howe can attack. They'd already arrived in Ostagar by the time you get there, so no, he didn't lose out on Highever.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I am a fair person though, I always kill him while naked and using fisticuffs while he has his armour and sword, so I did give him a chance not that he deserves one since he is a big stinky poo poo head.

... yeah, see my second playthrough my basic strategy was "You can't hit what's constantly keeping you immobilized using Blood Wound and Cone Of Cold." (Aforementioned evil character playthrough, or one of them at least.) My fourth had my champion's weapons coated in a cocktail of toxins. (It was Zevran, and I was trying to roleplay. Plus I wanted a screenshot of all those poisons on my display bar for the lulz.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2012 - 04:10 .