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[DreGregoire]

Isn't this in the wrong forum?!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DreGregoire wrote...

Isn't this in the wrong forum?!

The original post was TheButterflyEffect complaining because she believed that Alistair being king is the official Dragon Age canon and will appear in Dragon Age 3. That belongs here. The rest of this? Okay, probably not.

[DreGregoire]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Isn't this in the wrong forum?!

The original post was TheButterflyEffect complaining because she believed that Alistair being king is the official Dragon Age canon and will appear in Dragon Age 3. That belongs here. The rest of this? Okay, probably not.

Really? I saw no mention of DAIII in the first post.

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

...Why the hell did they make the worst ending decision in DAO canon.

...I want that whining, childish, s**t for brains little twit to stay dead. Anora is a bajillion times better.

If he was exiled and shows up drunk at the Hanged Man in Kirkwall, he whinges about his losing his "princely status". The hell? I thought he just wanted to be normal, wanted absolutely nothing to do with the fact that his Dad was a king. He even dumps his so-called "beloved" over it.

[**Offensive word removed by mod. Also, mod was kind enough to correct the spelling of the "Alitair" in the title**]

It must have been deleted. So since it isn't there I assumed it was about the comics and novels of dragon age and not about DAIII. I don't have any reason to believe that PC decisions in the previous games won't carry into DAIII.

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

...he also blames the Wardens for killing Cailan instead of saying they were simply overrun by the darkspawn and then crowned himself regent instead of falling in line behind the rightful queen....

He believes the Wardens were actually responsible for leading Cailan into a hopeless battle, thinking they're serving Orlesian interests. See my wall of text on page 11 for why he believes the Wardens are responsible.

He knows the Darkspawn overtook Cailan. But he truly believes the Wardens deliberately led Cailan out into the open, without convincing him to actually strategize, all to die so Orlais could go to Ferelden and "aid" them -- their aid consisting of helping beat the Blight, but then never leaving the nation they helped.

[Costin_Razvan]

 Selfish in that you believe your opinion is more important than Alistair's. You may believe what you're doing is for the greater good, but from Alistair's perspective you're allowing Loghain a chance at redemption which Alistair doesn't think he deserves. Alistair believes that sacrificing your life to save Ferelden is a noble deed, and that the Wardens don't need Loghain-- the very man who killed all the other Wardens and put you in this position--to do that.

Since when is the belief that you are right in a situation make you selfish? 

And no, as a player I do not have to believe in the greater good or in Loghain's so called redemption to spare him. Mercy, it exists, perhaps you should learn the concept of it.

Mary Kirby wrote...

How many people did you kill just getting to the Landsmeet?

So because YOU the game designers forced us to kill people regardless of what we do up until that point those of us that choose not kill Loghain are hypocrites?

For the record in my cannon run I've made a point that whenever the game asked me to spare someone I spared them. That goes from Jowan, to Wynne, the mages, the blood mages in the tower, Zevran, Sten, saving the Werewolves and the Dalish.

Seriously this mentality that somehow a person's death is EVER justifified on moral ground is nothing more the hypocrisy. Yes there are people who die because of my actions but there is really nothing I can do to prevent in the events of the game now can I? People like Howe, Kolgrim/Wynne, Harrowmont/Bhelen, Caridin/Branka but whenever I am given the choice I have spared people, but to answer a question you posed to someone else.

 Did you spare Caladrius, then?

Yes and Vaughn as well. 

Anyway, this should apply here:

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 octobre 2012 - 05:03 .

[AlexanderCousland]

I dont understande people who actually think it's Lohgain's fault that Cailin died. Gaider Himself even defused that arguement.


Point is, The Warden & Alistair were delayed, I assume having the Tower of Ishal unexpectedly raided by darkspawn had something to do with the Beacon not being lit in a timely manner. Furthermore, the Warden & Alistair themselve's would have died if Flemeth wouldn't have saved us, and It certainly isn't Lohgain's fault that we ran into an unexpected horde of darkspawn. I'd Wager the Darkspawn pushed deep into the frontline's considering the circumstances. Id also assume the reason Lohgain blamed Cailin's death on the Warden's is because the Beacon was lit so late. If i was a general i wouldnt sacrifice troops to fight a lost battle, that's just common sense, You dont sacrifice many to save one.

"but but but The Orlesian's could of helped!" No you twit's...they want to take ove fereldan, by marriage or by war. Ostagar DLC will tell you that.

"but but but What's so wrong with Orlais"... OH nothing....except they want to rule ALL OF THEDAS! Empress Celene I has expansionist dreams. How many wars do those kind of dreams start?

and Back on Subject...Alistair is a sweet, sincere, formidable warrior, who also happens to lack Leadership Qualities and is Quite the Fool. In the words of Flemeth :

" You are required to do nothing! least of all believe. Shut ones eyes tight, Open ones eye's wide, either way, one's a Fool!" - Flemeth to Alistair.

(have a strange feeling, after reading Gaider and Kirby's comments, I think our game is gonna be hindered if you did not choose to make him King, because they seem to think he was betrayed by the player if you didnt choose him over lohgain, As if everybody liked Alistair smh.)

[Costin_Razvan]

"but but but What's so wrong with Orlais"... OH nothing....except they want to rule ALL OF THEDAS! Empress Celene I has expansionist dreams. How many wars do those kind of dreams start?

Nothing wrong with supporting an Empire take over your country in itself....except you know treason.

I support Empires personally and I believe a World Gov would be good for Thedas ( and our own world as well ) but treason IS treason and Cailan did commit it the moment he made that agreement with Celene.

As for the Wardens, who is to say that they did not make an agreement with Celene as well? Duncan IS Orlesian after all.

 (have a strange feeling, after reading Gaider and Kirby's comments, I think our game is gonna be hindered if you did not choose to make him King, because they seem to think he was betrayed by the player if you didnt choose him over lohgain, As if everybody liked Alistair smh.)

They are just trying to justify making Alistair king cannon for the books with every possible argument they can think of.  Thing is I don't need to spare Loghain to ensure Alistair doesn't get the throne. Hell I think any real Alistair fan would keep him the **** away from it!

He doesn't want it, doesn't need it and certainly as hell is not qualified for it even if he is hardened.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 octobre 2012 - 05:09 .

[Chromie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
 Duncan IS Orlesian after all.

But was Duncan more loyal to the Orlesians or to the Wardens? I so can't rememebr anything about Duncan right now.

[LobselVith8]

DreGregoire wrote...

Isn't this in the wrong forum?!

Warden Loghain seems to be alive, according to what Hawke is told in "King Alistair." Since the protagonist is supposed to visit Orlais at some point, perhaps we might see Warden Loghain?

[Costin_Razvan]

Oh I believe he's loyal to the Wardens, but wouldn't it be in the best interests of the Wardens if they could gain much stronger political support from their main backer: Orlais?

Either that or he and the Wardens are dumbasses for nor realizing Celene was going to use the Blight as an excuse to take over.

[Villiamus]

I don't understand the hatred here for Alistair, or the support for Loghain or Anora say what you will about him But I always felt I could trust Alistair whilst I would trust loghain... I would not trust loghain at all the guy spent most of the game trying to kill me he deserved to die for all he did, the slavery, assasinations and so forth. yet people are siding with him over the guy whose been with fighting the blight by your side the whole damn time!

my mind it is boggled!

Modifié par Villiamus, 28 octobre 2012 - 05:13 .

[NedPepper]

All I have to say on this without reading the thread: I hope Alistar IS made the canon King of Ferelden. He's too a good a character to just throw away.

[Costin_Razvan]

Villiamus wrote...

I don't understand the hatred here for Alistair, or the support for Loghain or Anora say what you will about him But I always felt I could trust Alistair whilst I would trust loghain... I would not trust loghain at all the guy spent most of the game trying to kill me he deserved to die for all he did, the slavery, assasinations and so forth. yet people are siding with him over the guy whose been with fighting the blight by your side the whole damn time!

my mind it is boggled!

People are not sidding with Loghain, people are sparing his life.

There is a huge ****ing difference between the two.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 octobre 2012 - 05:14 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

FreshIstay wrote...

I dont understande people who actually think it's Lohgain's fault that Cailin died. Gaider Himself even defused that arguement.

Easy. We all agreed to a plan which involved him charging at the Darkspawn.

Yes, yes, I know the common objections. But you know what? When the Warden and Alistair saw that the entire tower was overrun by the Darkspawn they could have said this changed the plan. They could have refused to do their part of the plan because they were now doing their job in the face of many more enemies than previously believed. But they didn't. The two of them fought their way through the damn tower and got the signal lit. It was late, true. But it was still lit, despite the Darkspawn in their way. Faced with an unexpected challenge the Grey Wardens charged in, fought, and completed their assigned task.

Loghain ran.

He showed up to that field planning to betray the king. He wasn't sure if he could go through with it and if the situation had been easier he might not have. But he did it and then proceded to do all sorts of other evil things and justify them to himself until finally he managed to absolve himself of all guilt for the situation in his own mind.

[LobselVith8]

Skelter192 wrote...

But was Duncan more loyal to the Orlesians or to the Wardens? I so can't rememebr anything about Duncan right now.

Duncan was a Warden like Riordian. Gaider said he wouldn't have made Alistair King (over a year ago) because he didn't think the Wardens should get involved in politics, and wouldn't have stayed in Ferelden after the disaster at Ostagar (if he survived), instead retreating to Orlais to join the other Wardens to deal with the Blight.

[Dave of Canada]

Make Alistair spare Howe and make him part of your party if you're a Human Noble and suddenly every player in the world would be outraged and feel betrayed by Alistair, instantly demanding his head and how BioWare was stupid at making him do so.

It's practically what you do to him if you spare Loghain.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 octobre 2012 - 05:22 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

"but but but What's so wrong with Orlais"... OH nothing....except they want to rule ALL OF THEDAS! Empress Celene I has expansionist dreams. How many wars do those kind of dreams start?

Nothing wrong with supporting an Empire take over your country in itself....except you know treason.

I support Empires personally and I believe a World Gov would be good for Thedas ( and our own world as well ) but treason IS treason and Cailan did commit it the moment he made that agreement with Celene.

As for the Wardens, who is to say that they did not make an agreement with Celene as well? Duncan IS Orlesian after all.

 (have a strange feeling, after reading Gaider and Kirby's comments, I think our game is gonna be hindered if you did not choose to make him King, because they seem to think he was betrayed by the player if you didnt choose him over lohgain, As if everybody liked Alistair smh.)

They are just trying to justify making Alistair king cannon for the books with every possible argument they can think of.  Thing is I don't need to spare Loghain to ensure Alistair doesn't get the throne. Hell I think any real Alistair fan would keep him the **** away from it!

He doesn't want it, doesn't need it and certainly as hell is not qualified for it even if he is hardened.

Duncan is Rivaini, he lived in orlais for a time as peasent theif,  he stole (and took) something (or someone) from his eventual Warden Commander, who conscripted him after his crime. Which gives you an insight to what warden's are really about, and a deeper insight into the possible recruitments pf Nathaniel or Lohgain. I recommend reading The Stolen Throne and The Calling for insight in Fereldan Politic's and the Grey Warden's, otherwise your pretty much clueless, honestly.


But I will admit....The First Warden, from what we know of him, does seem to have a Interest in expanding the Order's Influence in the politic's of Thedas.

[Monica21]

Villiamus wrote...

I don't understand the hatred here for Alistair, or the support for Loghain or Anora say what you will about him But I always felt I could trust Alistair whilst I would trust loghain... I would not trust loghain at all the guy spent most of the game trying to kill me he deserved to die for all he did, the slavery, assasinations and so forth. yet people are siding with him over the guy whose been with fighting the blight by your side the whole damn time!

my mind it is boggled!

I don't hate Alistair, I just think he's wrong for leaving the Wardens. I don't "support" Loghain, or whatever that's supposed to mean, I just think it's a good idea to have another Warden. Given the circumstances of his surrender and that, unlike Caladrius, he's not surrendering just to bargain for his life but instead accepts that he will likely die, I'm more than willing to agree with Riordan and put him through the Joining.

[Shadow Fox]

Persephone wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

And you picked him over the man you said you loved, and who trusted you. And that doesn't constitute a betrayal on your part whatsoever. Yes, got it.

It may be seen as such but, David, no friend or lover of mine could ever guilt me into killing someone. Doesn't that make a modicum of sense?

That made me curious enough to question -- does it mean you cannot picture yourself ever in a situation in which you'd allow your very good friend and/or lover to take revenge on a person who'd in cold blood murdered their entire family? .

First, I do not share the view that Loghain murdered the people Alistair considered his family. In cold blood or otherwise.

No, I could not picture that. I do not believe in murder/revenge. Revenge twists and taints your very core like a plague.

“Revenge is barren of itself: it is the dreadful food it feeds on; its delight is murder, and its end is despair.”
Friedrich von Schiller

That answers your question, I guess.

I see you played a HN so let me ask you would you have been okay with Alistair making Howe a warden?

[Monica21]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

I dont understande people who actually think it's Lohgain's fault that Cailin died. Gaider Himself even defused that arguement.

Easy. We all agreed to a plan which involved him charging at the Darkspawn.

Yes, yes, I know the common objections. But you know what? When the Warden and Alistair saw that the entire tower was overrun by the Darkspawn they could have said this changed the plan. They could have refused to do their part of the plan because they were now doing their job in the face of many more enemies than previously believed. But they didn't. The two of them fought their way through the damn tower and got the signal lit. It was late, true. But it was still lit, despite the Darkspawn in their way. Faced with an unexpected challenge the Grey Wardens charged in, fought, and completed their assigned task.

Loghain ran.

I disagree on this comparison. There's a difference between two junior Wardens risking their lives and risking the rest of the Ferelden army under Loghain's command. Two lives versus thousands. I can cut Loghain quite a bit of slack for being unwilling to risk those thousands, but I also know that you and I don't see Ostagar the same way.

He showed up to that field planning to betray the king. He wasn't sure if he could go through with it and if the situation had been easier he might not have. But he did it and then proceded to do all sorts of other evil things and justify them to himself until finally he managed to absolve himself of all guilt for the situation in his own mind.

He showed up at that field with a plan if it was required. Turns out it was. If Cailan had listened to Loghain and stayed away from the front lines then there wouldn't have been a need for Loghain to put his plan in play.

[mauro2222]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Villiamus wrote...

I don't understand the hatred here for Alistair, or the support for Loghain or Anora say what you will about him But I always felt I could trust Alistair whilst I would trust loghain... I would not trust loghain at all the guy spent most of the game trying to kill me he deserved to die for all he did, the slavery, assasinations and so forth. yet people are siding with him over the guy whose been with fighting the blight by your side the whole damn time!

my mind it is boggled!

People are not sidding with Loghain, people are sparing his life.

There is a huge ****ing difference between the two.

I would like to have that option, my main problem with him is his lack of reason. I don't need to butcher him like a barbarian just because Alistair wants him dead, both of them are pretty touchy at that moment.

He seems to recover some brain cells after you beat him, and I'm not going to lie, I want to use him, the **** may be an **** but he's a good strategist ****.

Modifié par mauro2222, 28 octobre 2012 - 05:50 .

[AlexanderCousland]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

I dont understande people who actually think it's Lohgain's fault that Cailin died. Gaider Himself even defused that arguement.

Easy. We all agreed to a plan which involved him charging at the Darkspawn.

Yes, yes, I know the common objections. But you know what? When the Warden and Alistair saw that the entire tower was overrun by the Darkspawn they could have said this changed the plan. They could have refused to do their part of the plan because they were now doing their job in the face of many more enemies than previously believed. But they didn't. The two of them fought their way through the damn tower and got the signal lit. It was late, true. But it was still lit, despite the Darkspawn in their way. Faced with an unexpected challenge the Grey Wardens charged in, fought, and completed their assigned task.

Loghain ran.

He showed up to that field planning to betray the king. He wasn't sure if he could go through with it and if the situation had been easier he might not have. But he did it and then proceded to do all sorts of other evil things and justify them to himself until finally he managed to absolve himself of all guilt for the situation in his own mind.

Yea...We lit the Beacon, but we were very late, This gave Darkspawn forces a considerable amount of time to advance on the frontlines, a flank attack cant work if the flank is late!  Our Warden's & Alistair would have perished along with Cailin if it wasnt for FLEMETH...period.

He did not show up planning to betray the King, If  he had then he would have willingly encouraged Cailin to join the Frontline's when they were planning the battle, However, He encouraged Cailin not to.

Lohgain Retreated, and was smart to do so.

I assume, You yourself, would throw half of the  remaining army into a Losing battle? Therefore, weakining your own forces, whom by the way, STILL WOULD HAVE HAD TO FIGHT THE DARKSPAWN AGAIN, and. the second time with half of what was already half of the army,  It's called, military strategy.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Monica21 wrote...

I disagree on this comparison. There's a difference between two junior Wardens risking their lives and risking the rest of the Ferelden army under Loghain's command. Two lives versus thousands. I can cut Loghain quite a bit of slack for being unwilling to risk those thousands, but I also know that you and I don't see Ostagar the same way.

I'm not 100% on the merits of running vs. not running in that situation, but I don know two things: one, people are too quick to point to the presence of additional Darkspawn as the reason for Loghain to withdraw. And two, Loghain is not the person I want making that call. I believe that the tactical considerations played some part in his decision. I also believe it wasn't a big enough part.

Monica21 wrote...
He showed up at that field with a plan if it was required. Turns out it was. If Cailan had listened to Loghain and stayed away from the front lines then there wouldn't have been a need for Loghain to put his plan in play.

Again, not 100% on this one, but the phrasing suggested he had a specific king betrayal plan rather than a general strategic withdrawal plan. More importantly, I don't believe for one second that he expected Cailan to follow that particular advice. I'd known Cailan for five minutes and I knew he wouldn't.

[mauro2222]

LOL it would have helped if his facial expression looked like "this is necessary, I'm sorry" instead of "MUAHAHA I'M EVIL!"

Modifié par mauro2222, 28 octobre 2012 - 05:58 .

[Monica21]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
I'm not 100% on the merits of running vs. not running in that situation, but I don know two things: one, people are too quick to point to the presence of additional Darkspawn as the reason for Loghain to withdraw. And two, Loghain is not the person I want making that call. I believe that the tactical considerations played some part in his decision. I also believe it wasn't a big enough part.

Well, I'm certainly not a military strategist, but I do think superior numbers are an excellent reason to retreat. There's a lot in KoP's blog post about what you see when you're crossing the bridge and that every scouting report inflates the number of darkspawn, and even then the number is greater than anticipated. So I think that, in addition to the signal being late, they were simply outnumbered.

Again, not 100% on this one, but the phrasing suggested he had a specific king betrayal plan rather than a general strategic withdrawal plan. More importantly, I don't believe for one second that he expected Cailan to follow that particular advice. I'd known Cailan for five minutes and I knew he wouldn't.

No, I think you're right and I agree. I wouldn't call it a king betrayal plan, necessarily, but he did have his ducks in a row if he did have to retreat. I don't think he expected Cailan to follow the advice either, but Cailan had the unfortunate problem of trying to live up to Maric who always fought on the front lines despite Loghain trying to prevent him from doing so and somehow always lucking into staying alive. Cailan perhaps thought the luck would pass to him, in addition to feeling like he needed to live up to his father's example. And, another thing which I think points to Loghain's mindset is Maric telling him after West Hill that no one person is more important than Ferelden. Loghain risked his life to save Maric in that battle, and Maric was kind of angry about it. In Loghain's mind, if Cailan is intent on sacrificing himself then there's nothing he (Loghain) can do to stop him. So, yes, Loghain does have a plan that is very specific in keeping the Orlesians out of Ferelden, and Loghain also believes (perhaps rightfully so) that he's the only person who can do this. Given his previous experience with the Orlesians, the Wardens, and his lack of knowledge about the Blight, it's really hard for me to blame him. As I said earlier, of course he made mistakes during this time, but given what he knew, I simply can't fault him.