673 réponses à ce sujet

[Chaia]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Woah, I went out for a few hours and now suddenly this thread has 19 pages?!

Anyway... for all his "morality", I don't think Alister's insistence on killing Loghain was really rational. After all, the man had his reasons. Orlais/England is evil and was raping and abusing the crap out of Feraldan/Scotland for hundreds of years and the Wardens just wanted to be all buddy buddy with them again after he fought so hard to free his home...

It wasn't about the Wardens specifically, it was the evilness of the Orlaisans/English.

And killing him doesn't change the past.

Since pretty much every Orlesian we meet have varying degrees of French accents and the Feraldans English accents (and a Prince of Starkhaven a Scottish accent) I'm not sure where that came from, nor why its relavent (I believe the devs have meantioned a few times that Feraldan is based on Anglo-Saxon England after it been conqured by the Norman French in 1066; but unlike its real life counter part, Fereldan became independant again, were as England did/has not)

Anyway, back to topic...

Apart from that, agreed that Alister's insistence on killing Loghain is still a bit of grey area, Loghain (whilst, perhaps slightly overzealous and misguided) was just thinking of Feraldan as a whole and trying to do what he thought was best to stop it becoming under the rule of Orlais again, and in some areas hes not far off the mark after all for those of us thats got the RtO DLC we find out that his fears of Cailan blindly allowing Orlais rule Feraldan again were not unfounded.
Also, hhh89 was right, Eamon wasn't aware of Cailan's agreement if his letter is anything to go by, I'm guessing he was thinking of changing to anther Feraldan noble, or perhaps from one of the Free Marches city states etc, probably not the Empress of Orlais.

[nightscrawl]

Loki_344 wrote...

Sten, Sebastion, Anders, and the Virmire Survivor all get war criminal hate for the actions they've taken that were beyond the players control.

"War criminal" is a bit extreme, and seems a bit too modern for the setting, but I think what Anders did is a little more severe than what Sten did or what Sebastian wants to do (do note that he only threatens this in the game, we don't even have an epilogue to tell us what happened with that -- a good result to show us with a DA3 import, eh Bioware?!)

With Anders specifically, it's not the handful of people that may have been in the Chantry building, but what the act leads to: the potential deaths of hundreds of people, maybe more. Anders himself knows what his act will lead to, he freely admits it, but he feels the end justifies the means. A rival Anders even says that he would see the death of every person in Kirkwall if it got mages their freedom.

I don't get, isn't the PC empowered enough in these games that they don't have to control every aspect of the world around them? Should'nt living in the real world make them accustomed to the people they know and trust sometimes acting unilaterally, as any intelligent human being would tend to do?

I agree with you there, but with a few exceptions, most games cater to every whim of the PC. Is it really so hard to believe that players might not react well when that pattern of behavior is changed, and changed in a big way, as was the case with Alistair and the Landsmeet?

I feel that this expectation of the player's can be reduced by offering more such situations, and not just at a pivotal moment near the end. By the time the Landsmeet rolls around, you've played a good 40+ hours of DAO. That is a significant time investment, and most of that was spent with your set of followers and other various NPCs nodding their heads and going along with whatever you want, despite the occasional disapproval points.

To digress slightly, this is one reason I would like more followers that are NOT able to be romanced, like Aveline. More specifically, you attempt to start one and they just aren't interested, nor will they ever be.

[nightscrawl]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Anyway... for all his "morality", I don't think Alister's insistence on killing Loghain was really rational.

David never claimed it was. Neither does Alistair, for that matter. Everything that is said by him is an emotional response that comes from grief, rage, a desire for revenge, and (as was pointed out by DG) a sense of betrayal by your PC.

It is however, understandable. Even if you disagree with it, or despise him for leaving your Warden if you make Loghain a Warden, think that he was just being selfish and whiny, or just not looking at the big picture, I'd hope that most of the people here can at least understand the basis for Alistair's reaction.

[robertthebard]

Villiamus wrote...

I don't understand the hatred here for Alistair, or the support for Loghain or Anora say what you will about him But I always felt I could trust Alistair whilst I would trust loghain... I would not trust loghain at all the guy spent most of the game trying to kill me he deserved to die for all he did, the slavery, assasinations and so forth. yet people are siding with him over the guy whose been with fighting the blight by your side the whole damn time!

my mind it is boggled!

...and Alistair spent most of the game, depending on when you do Redcliffe, lying to you.  If you do it first, or, as I tend to do, I do the Circle, the Urn, and then Redcliffe, he spends the rest of the game crying.  Either about Duncan, or about his lineage.  The only time that he expresses a desire to be King is when you spare Loghain, and Anora's outburst at that point is exactly right, he only wants to be King so he can kill Loghain, that's it.  I said before, and I'll repeat it; I love the way he's written, it takes really good writing to polarize a group towards one character, but I despise who he's written to be.  I equate his outburst at the Landsmeet with my grandson when he was 5 or 6, trying to get his way at WalMart.  The same can be said if you exhibit surprise at his lineage in Party Camp; it's suddenly your fault that he was born who he is, and I'm not buying it.

[nightscrawl]

robertthebard wrote...

...and Alistair spent most of the game, depending on when you do Redcliffe, lying to you.

I've seen other people express this same feeling. I never looked at it that way to be honest. He withholds the information because he is hoping it won't be an issue, but he does tell you when he feels there's no way getting around it. To me, it doesn't play out as if there is an active deception on his part. And the fact that you find out from him, and not Arl Eamon later on, should give him a couple of points at least =/.

That said, I'll note that I always do Redcliffe first. So if there is other dialogue when you do the others first, I've never seen it.

[Fiacre]

Calob wrote...

Anora's a power-hungry bunch and she can suck my Warden's d***. Also, Alistair is great friend and a GREY WARDEN!

Ahaha, so very funny. How dare the woman have a mind of your own. Yes, she should debase herself before your male might, absolutely. ...You do realize how utterly disgusting what you said is, right?

And Alistair is not everyone's friend and being a Grey Warden doesn't necessarily help him either. I don't tend to be friends with people who call another one of my friends a ****.

Modifié par Fiacre, 28 octobre 2012 - 01:01 .

[Fiacre]

nightscrawl wrote...

I've seen other people express this same feeling. I never looked at it that way to be honest. He withholds the information because he is hoping it won't be an issue, but he does tell you when he feels there's no way getting around it. To me, it doesn't play out as if there is an active deception on his part. And the fact that you find out from him, and not Arl Eamon later on, should give him a couple of points at least =/.

That said, I'll note that I always do Redcliffe first. So if there is other dialogue when you do the others first, I've never seen it.

I'm pretty sure that if you don't take him to Redcliffe, you do find out from Eamon when you cure him.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Calob wrote...

Anora's a power-hungry bunch and she can suck my Warden's d***. Also, Alistair is great friend and a GREY WARDEN!

A terrible grey warden, I might add

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fiacre wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

I've seen other people express this same feeling. I never looked at it that way to be honest. He withholds the information because he is hoping it won't be an issue, but he does tell you when he feels there's no way getting around it. To me, it doesn't play out as if there is an active deception on his part. And the fact that you find out from him, and not Arl Eamon later on, should give him a couple of points at least =/.

That said, I'll note that I always do Redcliffe first. So if there is other dialogue when you do the others first, I've never seen it.

I'm pretty sure that if you don't take him to Redcliffe, you do find out from Eamon when you cure him.

You do. Seen it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Well, I'm certainly not a military strategist, but I do think superior numbers are an excellent reason to retreat. There's a lot in KoP's blog post about what you see when you're crossing the bridge and that every scouting report inflates the number of darkspawn, and even then the number is greater than anticipated. So I think that, in addition to the signal being late, they were simply outnumbered.

I'll admit my thinking might be colored because my country's history contains a battle which involved a king fighting on the front lines and a stunningly successful flanking maneouver against superior numbers. I'm just saying that given Loghain's decision-making pattern I'm not sure I want him to be the one making the call.

Okay, then who? Cailan's a moron who refused to listen when Loghain tried to give him advice that would have saved his life. Duncan doesn't seem to be making any decisions for fear of offending the people in charge. A PC might have seen it going to hell but nobody's listening to them yet!

Monica21 wrote...

No, I think you're right and I agree. I wouldn't call it a king betrayal plan, necessarily, but he did have his ducks in a row if he did have to retreat. I don't think he expected Cailan to follow the advice either, but Cailan had the unfortunate problem of trying to live up to Maric who always fought on the front lines despite Loghain trying to prevent him from doing so and somehow always lucking into staying alive. Cailan perhaps thought the luck would pass to him, in addition to feeling like he needed to live up to his father's example. And, another thing which I think points to Loghain's mindset is Maric telling him after West Hill that no one person is more important than Ferelden. Loghain risked his life to save Maric in that battle, and Maric was kind of angry about it. In Loghain's mind, if Cailan is intent on sacrificing himself then there's nothing he (Loghain) can do to stop him. So, yes, Loghain does have a plan that is very specific in keeping the Orlesians out of Ferelden, and Loghain also believes (perhaps rightfully so) that he's the only person who can do this. Given his previous experience with the Orlesians, the Wardens, and his lack of knowledge about the Blight, it's really hard for me to blame him. As I said earlier, of course he made mistakes during this time, but given what he knew, I simply can't fault him.

I guess I can agree with parts of this, except that I certainly do fault him. He's got reasons for what he does, but as to whether they're good enough...I find it easiest to slap Cailan's armor on Alistair, hand him either Maric's or Duncan's sword, and let them settle it amongst themselves.

Which will not answer the question. And leaving out the part where what you suggest Loghain had a duty to do would get him killed to save a man who was probably going to die anyway, what about all the useful soldiers that Loghain would have had to take with him when he went to die?

mauro2222 wrote...

LOL it would have helped if his facial
expression looked like "this is necessary, I'm sorry" instead of
"MUAHAHA I'M EVIL!"

Also this. He didn't need to look quite so gleeful about his retreat.

Agreed. And Flemeth didn't need to say "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature."

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2012 - 02:37 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

thats1evildude wrote...

In fairness to Alistair, he's not fully informed as to why Grey Wardens are needed to end a Blight. He had no idea that a Warden must die to slay the Archdemon. If he knew he was looking at a death sentence, then he might have been amicable to the notion of letting Loghain take the final blow.

If you make Alistair the king, and Loghain lives, his parting words at the ceremony are that he'll try to forgive you. If Loghain dies, he basically says, "I'm not angry anymore. That was justice."

[cJohnOne]

They had to fight at Ostagar or else they would have to fight at Denerim.

[Vilegrim]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

How many people does Alistair try to guilt me into killing? How many people do I kill out of self-preservation? Nobody's saying the Warden is a pacifist, but there is a distinct difference between killing people because they are trying to kill you, and killing a man who's on his knees and has just surrendered.

Did you spare Caladrius, then?

I can't recall if he offered an alternative, iirc it was: He enacts a blaood magic ritual to buff you, or you kill him, was their a third option?

[Lennard Testarossa]

Vilegrim wrote...
I can't recall if he offered an alternative, iirc it was: He enacts a blaood magic ritual to buff you, or you kill him, was their a third option?

The third option was to refuse his offer and let him go.

[TheButterflyEffect]

Bah... dark and dirty and badass men are a bajillion times hotter than light, "pious", "proper" men...

[AlexanderCousland]

Why does Alistair assume your Warden is his friend?
No matter his approval rating, He (and gaider) seem(s) to think everybody liked him, and if you dont choose him youre betraying him. Dragon Age lore was better without a cannon Fereldan King, but they made one, that shows you how much they value Alistair, they had to know some people were gonna be pissed, but as usual "oh well, cant please everybody". You cant please everybody, but you can make a comic that doesnt create a offiicial version of the most important choice in the first game. "oh well, get over it, It doesnt mess your playthrough up!" except....We dont know that! I think now that they have created the comic, they should make the future of Fereldan the same no matter who you choose, because if they dont then they will have created right vs. wrong way to play origins, and as of now there isnt one.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Vilegrim wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

How many people does Alistair try to guilt me into killing? How many people do I kill out of self-preservation? Nobody's saying the Warden is a pacifist, but there is a distinct difference between killing people because they are trying to kill you, and killing a man who's on his knees and has just surrendered.

Did you spare Caladrius, then?

I can't recall if he offered an alternative, iirc it was: He enacts a blaood magic ritual to buff you, or you kill him, was their a third option?

Blood magic, kill him or just let him go.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 28 octobre 2012 - 04:14 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Foopydoopydoo: Excuse me, but I don't care one bit for that argument. Emotional arguments are and have always been pathetic.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 octobre 2012 - 04:17 .

[Fredward]

Costin_Razvin: Excuse me, but I don't care one bit for that argument. Melodramatic, generalising statements are and have always been pathetic.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He believes the Wardens were actually responsible for leading Cailan into a hopeless battle, thinking they're serving Orlesian interests. See my wall of text on page 11 for why he believes the Wardens are responsible.

He knows the Darkspawn overtook Cailan. But he truly believes the Wardens deliberately led Cailan out into the open, without convincing him to actually strategize, all to die so Orlais could go to Ferelden and "aid" them -- their aid consisting of helping beat the Blight, but then never leaving the nation they helped.

Since the battle plan for Ostagar was his own making and not the Wardens', if he truly believes that itd' be the level of self-delusion and denial that borders on mental illness. If not straight crosses into it.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 octobre 2012 - 04:49 .

[tmp7704]

cJohnOne wrote...

They had to fight at Ostagar or else they would have to fight at Denerim.

Still considerably better prospect than losing at Ostagar and then being unable to fight at Denerim at all, as result of the country tearing itself apart after the king's death.

Loghain demonstrates pretty clearly that he does understand the concept of "sacrificing some for the greater good". Ironically, at the very Ostagar.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 octobre 2012 - 04:55 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He believes the Wardens were actually responsible for leading Cailan into a hopeless battle, thinking they're serving Orlesian interests. See my wall of text on page 11 for why he believes the Wardens are responsible.

He knows the Darkspawn overtook Cailan. But he truly believes the Wardens deliberately led Cailan out into the open, without convincing him to actually strategize, all to die so Orlais could go to Ferelden and "aid" them -- their aid consisting of helping beat the Blight, but then never leaving the nation they helped.

Since the battle plan for Ostagar was his own making and not the Wardens', if he truly believes that itd' be the level of self-delusion and denial that borders on mental illness. If not straight crosses into it.

Uh, Cailan was the one who brought them all to Ostagar. Loghain just makes the plan and it was Cailans idea to send the Warden to the beacon not Loghain.

[tmp7704]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Uh, Cailan was the one who brought them all to Ostagar. Loghain just makes the plan and it was Cailans idea to send the Warden to the beacon not Loghain.

Again, it was Loghain's stubborness that led to battle actually happening at Ostagar at all -- Cailan did offer him to hold off. And yes, Loghain does "just" make the battle plan -- that plan includes the whole questionable beacon/charge thing in the first place. It wasn't the Wardens that came up with it, but him.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

tmp7704 wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Uh, Cailan was the one who brought them all to Ostagar. Loghain just makes the plan and it was Cailans idea to send the Warden to the beacon not Loghain.

Again, it was Loghain's stubborness that led to battle actually happening at Ostagar at all -- Cailan did offer him to hold off. And yes, Loghain does "just" make the battle plan -- that plan includes the whole questionable beacon/charge thing in the first place. It wasn't the Wardens that came up with it, but him.

Ah, no. Loghain didn't want them to fight at ostagar at all. Cailan was the one who wanted to fight the darkspawn horde for the sake of "glory". And, yeah, Cailan did offer to hold off.... for the sake of some orlesian boot licking not because it was the right thing to do. And that beacon plan was to send a signal and Loghain didn't ask the Wardens to do it. Cailan is the one who purposely sends them the PC and Alistair. Loghain wouldn't have minded who went as long as it wasn't something tied to Orlesians. And lastly, the wardens took their sweet time with the beacon, in Loghains shoe I would be just as suspicious of anyone who took that long. Loghain doesn't know the tower was overrun by darkspawn, all he knew was that an organisation that came from Orlais went up and took forever to light the beacon.

[FenrirBlackDragon]

I think the choice of Ruler is personal preference. Alistair has always been my Warden's friend at the very least, even if there are disagreements.

I personally pick either having Alistair and Anora ruling together or Alistair ruling alone. I could see picking Anora if I get to keep Alistair as a warden, which is one of the choices. I feel a bit uneasy about setting up Alistair with Anora, but who knows? The seem to balance each other, based on what the epilogue says.

I just hope if King Alistair returns he makes a reference to the Warden based on their origin and mentions if there was a romance or not. I don't really want more than that, but if they decide to add more I'm game. Or if Anora is queen and she mentions being married to Cousland.