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[tmp7704]

bleetman wrote...

It seems pretty reasonable to assume that he might not be able to see the valley where Cailan's forces were fighting, but can still easily see the constant trail of Darkspawn pouring out of the wilds going back miles.

It's not exactly hard to see.

Unless that darkspawn moves at supersonic speed, the trail of this length must've been visible building up and approaching their positions for hours. It's not exactly a new development that could reasonably make one out of sudden throw their hands up in theh air and go "welp, i've only now realized there's more darkspawn than we anticipated, the battle surely is lost".

[Monica21]

Filament wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

wow! looks like topic went from "King Alistair" to "who's the real "villain" at the Battle at Ostagar"

And another reason why Loghain, love him or hate him, is an interesting character and why I'm boggled at the attempts in DA2 to shove him into "one-note villain" status.

Edited to add: the real villain at Ostagar are the darkspawn. Duh.

...Attempts in DA2? He's barely even mentioned in DA2. Are you basing this all on the fact that they used the word 'betrayal' once as part of a description for that DLC item pack?

In addition to the "he became reviled as much as he had once been revered." And then there's the opening cinemetic that says Cailan was betrayed by his most trusted general. So, yeah. That's not even how the developers described it after Origins was released.

[K_Tabris]

My PT are luckily similar to what the writers intended to be as their canon. Unfortunately, all of these arbitrary choices are starting to indicate a movement towards what the Mass Effect writers did. It's still too early to say, " Not cool." but I'm not liking where this is going, regardless,

[SeptimusMagistos]

Monica21 wrote...

Filament wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

wow! looks like topic went from "King Alistair" to "who's the real "villain" at the Battle at Ostagar"

And another reason why Loghain, love him or hate him, is an interesting character and why I'm boggled at the attempts in DA2 to shove him into "one-note villain" status.

Edited to add: the real villain at Ostagar are the darkspawn. Duh.

...Attempts in DA2? He's barely even mentioned in DA2. Are you basing this all on the fact that they used the word 'betrayal' once as part of a description for that DLC item pack?

In addition to the "he became reviled as much as he had once been revered." And then there's the opening cinemetic that says Cailan was betrayed by his most trusted general. So, yeah. That's not even how the developers described it after Origins was released.

You forget that Varric is the one telling the story. Stories tend to work better with heroes and villains. He's taking the way Loghain is now viewed by people (as well he should be after being defeated and having his opponent save the world) and boiling it down to basic essence.

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

In addition to the "he became reviled as much as he had once been revered." And then there's the opening cinemetic that says Cailan was betrayed by his most trusted general. So, yeah. That's not even how the developers described it after Origins was released. 

Which is strange, since Warden Loghain is tasked with recruiting new members into the Grey Warden order (as he reveals to the Hero of Ferelden at the royal ceremony). I doubt Loghain would be tasked with getting new members from Ferelden that if he was "reviled" by everyone. 

And it's noted that Loghain is seen as a hero if the former Teyrn makes the final sacrifice, given what's mentioned in the Epilogue (where Queen Anora builds a statue to commemorate her father). I think Loghain is only reviled if he was killed by The Warden at the Landsmeet.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

According to Word Of Gaider, no. And besides, the plan was to flank them. There were still spawn pouring into the valley when the beacon went up. Not all of the darkspawn were committed. (I rewatched the scene on Youtube to be sure.)

Really? I don't remember Gaider saying anything about what would have happened if Loghain charged, only about his reasons for not charging.

Sorry, misremembered. Meanwhile, take a look at the post involving the inanely huge stream of darkspawn pouring out of the Wilds. That makes this point better than Gaider possibly could even if he chose.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
My original point however was that there's nobody else better suited. You can't get a perfect anyone in Dragon Age. A lot of the point of Dragon Age is doing the best you can with what you have. There's no karma meter, there's no black and white morality, and in some cases it's not even clear what the right move is. So go ahead, weigh what you have, and make a personal judgement call on Loghain to the best of your abilities. My point is that Loghain did the same, and I think he did right.

I would rather have any of the others doing it. Loghain's judment throughout the game has just been horrible.

You can't just throw out someone's decision just because they've made bad ones. That's not how logic works. You have to evaluate the decision based on its own merits.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That wasn't his plan A, if you recall.

Well, his plan A involved a horde of demons, abominations, and undead pouring out of Redcliffe and Circle Tower while Denerim fell because it had no support from the dwarves or the elves and no Grey Wardens. There comes a point at which a man has to admit he's failed and step down. Loghain was well past that point.

Yes, you've caught him. It was entirely his plan that the country's best weapon would destroy itself over Uldred to no military benefit.

And how the hell was Connor his fault? Connor was under more strain than he should have been, but this is a little beyond what a reasonable person would see coming.

Also, he did send envoys to the dwarves. He could have picked a better one, but then I'm not defending his political savvy. (People have said, and I agree, that Anora should have been in charge of PR.)

The elves... that was never going to happen. Only the treaty gets them involved. If anything, Loghain had the right idea there.

Besides, the vast majority of the soldiers seen at Denerim in the cutscenes? Human. The treaties seem to have mostly provided the Warden with support for the party personally.

And the point where he's supposed to admit he's failed and stand down? Yes, that was the Landsmeet. And eventually he comes around, and becomes docile. If the Warden doesn't believe it, then Loghain can die for roleplaying reasons.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Roleplaying is entirely different. One can decide that a Warden would kill him for cultural reasons, (my DE warrior, for instance), because he's a massive ****** (my EM), or because the Warden doesn't know any of this. That's not the same as Loghain not being justified.

While I'm not sure if he was justified or not, I'd still kill him for any one of the things he did after Ostragar.

That's a separate argument, and harder to make. Still, he's justified in believeing that the Wardens are Orlesian agents given past history and past experience, and that justifies assassination. (If you'd read the lore, you'd know that refusing to get your hands dirty will get your back stabbed in this setting.) The slavery? He needed money to fight the war, which had a front added he should have seen coming but didn't. Part of this, again, was that Loghain handled the PR himself, which wasn't bright. The circle? Uldred flipping out wasn't his plan. The Redcliffe thing? He thought he and Cailan would have a fight over something (he wasn't sure what, if he had known he might have poisoned Cailan) and gave Eamon was essentially a sedative to make sure he stayed out of the way. (He had Berwick around to give warning in case Eamon looked like he might die, so Loghain could send the antidote.) Connor was an instrument of the plan, but Loghain did not intend for what happened to happen.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Yeah, but I actually remembered Alistair's "We've surely missed the signal" line, then promptly forgot it thanks to that manipulative hag.

Be that as it may, it doesn't change Loghain's apparently villainous appearence in his scene.

No, but I managed to ignore it until Flemeth (who gave the whole "cryptic wise woman" vibe) screwed him over.

My point is that regardless of all this motivation they give Loghain on the boards, they do their best in-game to make him look like a cackling, black-and-white villain.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2012 - 07:03 .

[bleetman]

tmp7704 wrote...

Unless that darkspawn moves at supersonic speed, the trail of this length must've been visible building up and approaching their positions for hours. It's not exactly a new development that could reasonably make one out of sudden throw their hands up in theh air and go "welp, i've only now realized there's more darkspawn than we anticipated, the battle surely is lost".

If the entire horde was attacking at once, sure. But it wasn't. That they're still pouring over a hill whilst Cailan's forces are fighting demonstrates that pretty clearly.

Modifié par bleetman, 28 octobre 2012 - 07:18 .

[Zeleen]

well, since we are on the subject of Loghain's betrayal or non-betryal...
I vote - betrayal/treason.. I think (again my opinion based on the assumption Loghain knows of Cailin's plans to divorce his daughter)
Loghain planned to retreat from battle before it even began - in hopes that King Cailan would indeed die in the battle and leave his (Loghain's) daughter on the throne where he (Loghain) would be able to gain power over the political course of Fereldan...

Modifié par Zeleen, 28 octobre 2012 - 07:12 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Zeleen wrote...

Loghain planned to retreat from battle before it even began - in hopes that King Cailan would indeed die in the battle and leave his (Loghain's) daughter on the throne where he (Loghain) would be able to gain power over the political course of Fereldan...

Number of times... then why did he try to talk Cailan out of fighting on the front lines instead of, say, telling him real men fight naked?

[Zeleen]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Loghain planned to retreat from battle before it even began - in hopes that King Cailan would indeed die in the battle and leave his (Loghain's) daughter on the throne where he (Loghain) would be able to gain power over the political course of Fereldan...

Number of times... then why did he try to talk Cailan out of fighting on the front lines instead of, say, telling him real men fight naked?

a ploy to "look innocent" in the eyes of witnesses( IMO)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Zeleen wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Loghain planned to retreat from battle before it even began - in hopes that King Cailan would indeed die in the battle and leave his (Loghain's) daughter on the throne where he (Loghain) would be able to gain power over the political course of Fereldan...

Number of times... then why did he try to talk Cailan out of fighting on the front lines instead of, say, telling him real men fight naked?

a ploy to "look innocent" in the eyes of witnesses( IMO)

In my not so humble opinion, Loghain would have brought this up casually, as a sort of "Are you sure you want to do this, it might be dangerous?" in front of as many witnesses as he expected to survive. Assuming that the plan was meant to go south, basically everyone who Loghain seems to have said it in front of was meant to die. (Apart from Uldred, who Word Of Gaider states was already working with Loghain.) Also, Loghain would not have gotten annoyingly repetitive about it, (he seems to have done so from Cailan's tone of voice rejecting the idea) because then Cailan might have honestly considered it. He would have done so several times, and had as many witnesses as possible, but he would not have been constantly at it.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2012 - 07:24 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Sorry, misremembered. Meanwhile, take a look at the post involving the inanely huge stream of darkspawn pouring out of the Wilds. That makes this point better than Gaider possibly could even if he chose.

Well, that's different.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You can't just throw out someone's decision just because they've made bad ones. That's not how logic works. You have to evaluate the decision based on its own merits.

No, but what I can do is extrapolate the way they make their decisions. Loghain is a man who resorts to extreme measures with frightening ease and then backs them as his only option. It isn't difficult for me to conjecture that his decision at Ostragar might have followed the same pattern.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Yes, you've caught him. It was entirely his plan that the country's best weapon would destroy itself over Uldred to no military benefit.

No, but it was his plan to back Uldred in the first place.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
And how the hell was Connor his fault? Connor was under more strain than he should have been, but this is a little beyond what a reasonable person would see coming.

It's his fault because he's the one who resorted to poisoning Connor's father. He has at best one degree of separation from Connor's freakout.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Also, he did send envoys to the dwarves. He could have picked a better one, but then I'm not defending his political savvy. (People have said, and I agree, that Anora should have been in charge of PR.)

The elves... that was never going to happen. Only the treaty gets them involved. If anything, Loghain had the right idea there.

RIght. And when someone shows up having succeeded where Loghain failed his first instinct is to kill them.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
And the point where he's supposed to admit he's failed and stand down? Yes, that was the Landsmeet.

Really the point where he should have done that was right around the time he realized that in order to succeed he has to ally himself to Howe. If these are the kinds of alliances you have to make to get power you should seriously ask yourself if it's even woth it.

And I didn't see much standing down at the Landsmeet either. This is well after the point where all his plans have unraveled and the people he's opposing have had to personally fix the consequences of his mistakes. And he still won't admit he's unsiuted for the throne unless he's physically beaten down.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That's a separate argument, and harder to make. Still, he's justified in believeing that the Wardens are Orlesian agents given past history and past experience, and that justifies assassination. (If you'd read the lore, you'd know that refusing to get your hands dirty will get your back stabbed in this setting.) The slavery? He needed money to fight the war, which had a front added he should have seen coming but didn't. Part of this, again, was that Loghain handled the PR himself, which wasn't bright. The circle? Uldred flipping out wasn't his plan. The Redcliffe thing? He thought he and Cailan would have a fight over something (he wasn't sure what, if he had known he might have poisoned Cailan) and gave Eamon was essentially a sedative to make sure he stayed out of the way. (He had Berwick around to give warning in case Eamon looked like he might die, so Loghain could send the antidote.) Connor was an instrument of the plan, but Loghain did not intend for what happened to happen.

I really don't care what he intended. He resorted to assassination, poisoning, slavery, and not stabbing Howe the second he saw him. Any one of these would have been enough for my Warden to end him, pretty much regardless of the circumstances.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No, but I managed to ignore it until Flemeth (who gave the whole "cryptic wise woman" vibe) screwed him over.

My point is that regardless of all this motivation they give Loghain on the boards, they do their best in-game to make him look like a cackling, black-and-white villain.

Now this I can agree with.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He believes the Wardens were actually responsible for leading Cailan into a hopeless battle, thinking they're serving Orlesian interests. See my wall of text on page 11 for why he believes the Wardens are responsible.

He knows the Darkspawn overtook Cailan. But he truly believes the Wardens deliberately led Cailan out into the open, without convincing him to actually strategize, all to die so Orlais could go to Ferelden and "aid" them -- their aid consisting of helping beat the Blight, but then never leaving the nation they helped.

Since the battle plan for Ostagar was his own making and not the Wardens', if he truly believes that itd' be the level of self-delusion and denial that borders on mental illness. If not straight crosses into it.

I mean that he believes the Wardens goaded Cailan into going out there in the fray, without informing Cailan that yes he could die and that it will not be so easy to defeat the Darkspawn because they have an order of warriors who were glorified throughout history -- which led to Cailan thinking the Wardens could beat the Blight by themselves, with minimal support from an army.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

wow! looks like topic went from "King Alistair" to "who's the real "villain" at the Battle at Ostagar"

And another reason why Loghain, love him or hate him, is an interesting character and why I'm boggled at the attempts in DA2 to shove him into "one-note villain" status.

Edited to add: the real villain at Ostagar are the darkspawn. Duh.

...Attempts in DA2? He's barely even mentioned in DA2. Are you basing this all on the fact that they used the word 'betrayal' once as part of a description for that DLC item pack?

In DAII, it's understandable as the people who call Loghain a traitor are people like Aveline and Alistair. Varric also calls Loghain a traitor, but no doubt he's just calling him that because Aveline viewed him as such.

But the calling of Loghain a definite traitor continues in the comics, prior to the actual story. There's a narration that's just there to fill in the void of events for new readers -- and isn't actually being said by a character -- and it calls him a traitor.

[Zeleen]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Loghain planned to retreat from battle before it even began - in hopes that King Cailan would indeed die in the battle and leave his (Loghain's) daughter on the throne where he (Loghain) would be able to gain power over the political course of Fereldan...

Number of times... then why did he try to talk Cailan out of fighting on the front lines instead of, say, telling him real men fight naked?

a ploy to "look innocent" in the eyes of witnesses( IMO)

In my not so humble opinion, Loghain would have brought this up casually, as a sort of "Are you sure you want to do this, it might be dangerous?" in front of as many witnesses as he expected to survive. Assuming that the plan was meant to go south, basically everyone who Loghain seems to have said it in front of was meant to die. (Apart from Uldred, who Word Of Gaider states was already working with Loghain.) Also, Loghain would not have gotten annoyingly repetitive about it, (he seems to have done so from Cailan's tone of voice rejecting the idea) because then Cailan might have honestly considered it. He would have done so several times, and had as many witnesses as possible, but he would not have been constantly at it.

(IMO)
Loghain knew Cailin quite well, well enough to know Cailin would not heed his councel, Cailin was "foolhearty" and he romantized "riding into battle with the Grey Wardens and defeating the blight",  Loghain KNEW Cailin would not heed any warnings, nor wait for reinforcements....  which fit his plans exceedingly well. 

Which by the way is another reason why Alistair is the right choice as King - he never romanticized fighting the blight  (IMO)

Modifié par Zeleen, 28 octobre 2012 - 07:35 .

[TEWR]

No, but it was his plan to back Uldred in the first place.

Technically, Uldred was backing Loghain in return for Loghain backing Uldred in the future.

Loghain went to Uldred and said that if he could convince the Circle to aid him in fighting the Darkspawn, afterwards he'd work on getting the Circle more autonomy. Uldred then went to the Senior Enchanters and nearly convinced them to help Loghain, until Wynne opened up her big fat mouth.

Once she did that, Uldred was pushed into a corner and thought that he needed to use his plan B -- a rebellion launched by his cabal of blood mages -- to make sure the Circle would fight alongside Loghain.

Not exactly bright, but had Wynne kept her yap shut nothing bad would've happened. She was speaking on matters she was completely ignorant of, and even when Loghain tells her why he had to leave the field she still insists that he's a traitor.

Wynne herself notes that she now regrets having spoken up at the Circle's meeting.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]SeptimusMagistos wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Sorry, misremembered. Meanwhile, take a look at the post involving the inanely huge stream of darkspawn pouring out of the Wilds. That makes this point better than Gaider possibly could even if he chose.[/quote]

Well, that's different. [/quote]

And compelling, I'd argue.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You can't just throw out someone's decision just because they've made bad ones. That's not how logic works. You have to evaluate the decision based on its own merits.[/quote]

No, but what I can do is extrapolate the way they make their decisions. Loghain is a man who resorts to extreme measures with frightening ease and then backs them as his only option. It isn't difficult for me to conjecture that his decision at Ostragar might have followed the same pattern. [/quote]

When you see him at Denerim, it's clear enough he's hurting over this. He does this because he doesn't see any other way. It's extreme, yes, but justified if you look at what he knew and what he had reason to suspect. (If, for instance, he knew or actually believed that Wardens were neccesary he'd have put out "Wanted for Questioning" notices instead of "Wanted Dead Or Alive.")

Still, this does provide a frightening pattern. Though it could have worked... if it weren't for the whole "Wardens are neccesary" thing. In fact, the winning side at the Landsmeet probably uses the resources Loghain gained through slavery to defend Denerim. (Unless you think they throw them out as fruit of the poisonous tree, despite the darkspawn.) Loghain's decision, though reprehensible, might have saved lives.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Yes, you've caught him. It was entirely his plan that the country's best weapon would destroy itself over Uldred to no military benefit.[/quote]

No, but it was his plan to back Uldred in the first place. [/quote]

Basically exactly whe TEWR said about it in the last post.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
And how the hell was Connor his fault? Connor was under more strain than he should have been, but this is a little beyond what a reasonable person would see coming.[/quote]

It's his fault because he's the one who resorted to poisoning Connor's father. He has at best one degree of separation from Connor's freakout. [/quote]

Did he have any reason to see this freakout coming? He had to expect a reaction, but something like this?

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Also, he did send envoys to the dwarves. He could have picked a better one, but then I'm not defending his political savvy. (People have said, and I agree, that Anora should have been in charge of PR.)

The elves... that was never going to happen. Only the treaty gets them involved. If anything, Loghain had the right idea there.[/quote]

RIght. And when someone shows up having succeeded where Loghain failed his first instinct is to kill them. [/quote]

Interestingly put. I'd have put it "He sees somebody whose motives he does not know, who he suspects of being an enemy, gathering an army in his country."

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
And the point where he's supposed to admit he's failed and stand down? Yes, that was the Landsmeet. [/quote]

Really the point where he should have done that was right around the time he realized that in order to succeed he has to ally himself to Howe. If these are the kinds of alliances you have to make to get power you should seriously ask yourself if it's even woth it. [/quote]

Again, you really don't seem to get this setting. The Warden can be (for the most part) a paragon of virtue, and it works out. For basically everyone else, how much power and success you have is a matter of how far you can go without feeling bad about it.

[quote]
And I didn't see much standing down at the Landsmeet either. This is well after the point where all his plans have unraveled and the people he's opposing have had to personally fix the consequences of his mistakes. And he still won't admit he's unsiuted for the throne unless he's physically beaten down. [/quote]

At which point it is appropriate to surrender.

I'll take that a step farther and admit that he arguably should have surrendered upon losing the vote. (If he lost the vote.) But this really isn't central to my point anyway.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That's a separate argument, and harder to make. Still, he's justified in believeing that the Wardens are Orlesian agents given past history and past experience, and that justifies assassination. (If you'd read the lore, you'd know that refusing to get your hands dirty will get your back stabbed in this setting.) The slavery? He needed money to fight the war, which had a front added he should have seen coming but didn't. Part of this, again, was that Loghain handled the PR himself, which wasn't bright. The circle? Uldred flipping out wasn't his plan. The Redcliffe thing? He thought he and Cailan would have a fight over something (he wasn't sure what, if he had known he might have poisoned Cailan) and gave Eamon was essentially a sedative to make sure he stayed out of the way. (He had Berwick around to give warning in case Eamon looked like he might die, so Loghain could send the antidote.) Connor was an instrument of the plan, but Loghain did not intend for what happened to happen.[/quote]

I really don't care what he intended. He resorted to assassination, poisoning, slavery, and not stabbing Howe the second he saw him. Any one of these would have been enough for my Warden to end him, pretty much regardless of the circumstances. [/quote]

Again, that's Thedas in a nutshell.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No, but I managed to ignore it until Flemeth (who gave the whole "cryptic wise woman" vibe) screwed him over.

My point is that regardless of all this motivation they give Loghain on the boards, they do their best in-game to make him look like a cackling, black-and-white villain.
[/quote]

Now this I can agree with.

[/quote]

Common ground. That helps.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:06 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No, but it was his plan to back Uldred in the first place.

Technically, Uldred was backing Loghain in return for Loghain backing Uldred in the future.

Loghain went to Uldred and said that if he could convince the Circle to aid him in fighting the Darkspawn, afterwards he'd work on getting the Circle more autonomy. Uldred then went to the Senior Enchanters and nearly convinced them to help Loghain, until Wynne opened up her big fat mouth.

Once she did that, Uldred was pushed into a corner and thought that he needed to use his plan B -- a rebellion launched by his cabal of blood mages -- to make sure the Circle would fight alongside Loghain.

Not exactly bright, but had Wynne kept her yap shut nothing bad would've happened. She was speaking on matters she was completely ignorant of, and even when Loghain tells her why he had to leave the field she still insists that he's a traitor.

Wynne herself notes that she now regrets having spoken up at the Circle's meeting.

No question, it's the part of his Loghain's plans I actually have the least problem with. It's also the one with the worst consequence and most instructive of why allying yourself to shady individuals and then letting those individuals out of your sight often fails to work out.

[dragonflight288]

I haven't read much, just a couple of pages in this thread. Here's my honest opinion.

A hardened Alistair will make the best king. After all his character development is said and done, he starts planning ahead. Instead of outright opposing Anora's execution as a unhardened king and fumbling through a decision (with help from Eamon) he outright orders Anora to be placed in the tower, and says that she'll take the throne in the event he dies in battle, and that he'd see what would become of her after the battle if he lived.

Alistair is a man of honor and a code of principles that he won't compromise for anything. His opinion of the Wardens is a little shy of reality, but he is a good and honest man, with a strong sense of justice.

Anora is smart and cunning. There is no doubt about it, as it's made very clear she's been the one running the country for five years. She has experience and grew up in politics since she was young, so she knows the ebb and flow of things.

BUT, she has every plan of using the Warden for her own benefit. She agrees, before being freed, that she would support the Warden at the landsmeet. As soon as she's freed, she starts making plans to have the Warden support her instead, and if we don't follow through, she will not support us. She thinks nothing of betraying the Warden if the Warden doesn't agree with her terms so long as it secures her the throne.

She actively seeks power while Alistair is pushed into it.

A hardened Alistair has a good line. "She's like her father. They believe that only they can do the job. Whatever it takes." Alistair is all for letting her keep the throne if unhardened, but if hardened, he is more than willing to take the job, and won't complain about it, even if it isn't what he wants.

He doesn't want the throne, has a strong sense of justice, doesn't have the political knowledge or experience Anora has, but if hardened, is more than willing to make an effort, to a point that surprises everyone around him, and he isn't a puppet like everyone at the landsmeet thought he would be.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Zeleen wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Loghain planned to retreat from battle before it even began - in hopes that King Cailan would indeed die in the battle and leave his (Loghain's) daughter on the throne where he (Loghain) would be able to gain power over the political course of Fereldan...

Number of times... then why did he try to talk Cailan out of fighting on the front lines instead of, say, telling him real men fight naked?

a ploy to "look innocent" in the eyes of witnesses( IMO)

In my not so humble opinion, Loghain would have brought this up casually, as a sort of "Are you sure you want to do this, it might be dangerous?" in front of as many witnesses as he expected to survive. Assuming that the plan was meant to go south, basically everyone who Loghain seems to have said it in front of was meant to die. (Apart from Uldred, who Word Of Gaider states was already working with Loghain.) Also, Loghain would not have gotten annoyingly repetitive about it, (he seems to have done so from Cailan's tone of voice rejecting the idea) because then Cailan might have honestly considered it. He would have done so several times, and had as many witnesses as possible, but he would not have been constantly at it.

(IMO)
Loghain knew Cailin quite well, well enough to know Cailin would not heed his councel, Cailin was "foolhearty" and he romantized "riding into battle with the Grey Wardens and defeating the blight",  Loghain KNEW Cailin would not heed any warnings, nor wait for reinforcements....  which fit his plans exceedingly well. 

Which by the way is another reason why Alistair is the right choice as King - he never romanticized fighting the blight  (IMO)

Plausible. Word Of Gaider aside, I'd probably agree.

But when did Anora ever romanticize the Blight?

[Zeleen]

@ dragonflight288 - I agree -- and by the way - great signature...

[Zeleen]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plausible. Word Of Gaider aside, I'd probably agree.

But when did Anora ever romanticize the Blight?

she didn't...  she romanticized her father... AND she ignored the fact that her father left her huband to die on the battlefield...  (IMO)

Modifié par Zeleen, 28 octobre 2012 - 07:56 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Zeleen wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plausible. Word Of Gaider aside, I'd probably agree.

But when did Anora ever romanticize the Blight?

she didn't...  she romanticized her father... AND she ignored the fact that her father left her huband to die on the battlefield...  (IMO)

No, she had questions about it.

"Did you kill Cailan?"
"Cailan's death was his own doing."
She then lets it slide until basically the end of the game. But would you have instantly believed that your father had purposefully killed your husband?

[Merilsell]

You know you have done an awesome job as a writer, when even almost three years after the initial game's release, people are still talking about the character(s) you have created.

Just leaving this here for you all. And for David Gaider

[Zeleen]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plausible. Word Of Gaider aside, I'd probably agree.

But when did Anora ever romanticize the Blight?

she didn't...  she romanticized her father... AND she ignored the fact that her father left her huband to die on the battlefield...  (IMO)

No, she had questions about it.

"Did you kill Cailan?"
"Cailan's death was his own doing."
She then lets it slide until basically the end of the game. But would you have instantly believed that your father had purposefully killed your husband?

As Queen she should have at least prisoned Loghain for his "treason" - which it was- as a daughter she let it slide (might as well ignore)  and she actually never acted on the fact that Loghain betrayed the King and the King's army...  so she wasn't exactly acting as a queen or ruler - she was acting as a daughter..   in answer to your question.  (IMO)  which again in my opinon makes Alistair the better choice as ruler of Ferelden

Modifié par Zeleen, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:08 .