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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Zeleen wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plausible. Word Of Gaider aside, I'd probably agree.

But when did Anora ever romanticize the Blight?

she didn't...  she romanticized her father... AND she ignored the fact that her father left her huband to die on the battlefield...  (IMO)

No, she had questions about it.

"Did you kill Cailan?"
"Cailan's death was his own doing."
She then lets it slide until basically the end of the game. But would you have instantly believed that your father had purposefully killed your husband?

As Queen she should have at least prisoned Loghain for his "treason" - which it was- as a daughter she let it slide (might as well ignore)...  so she wasn't exactly acting as a queen or ruler - she was acting as a daughter..  (IMO)

Treason? Please tell me I'm not expected to have this argument twice at once on the same thread.

[Zeleen]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

As Queen she should have at least prisoned Loghain for his "treason" - which it was- as a daughter she let it slide (might as well ignore)...  so she wasn't exactly acting as a queen or ruler - she was acting as a daughter..  (IMO)

Treason? Please tell me I'm not expected to have this argument twice at once on the same thread.

Holy crapolo...  why argument - I clearly state it's only my opinion - I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with me...  and certainly this doesn't deserve pages AND pages of arguments..  I am only stating where I come from and not insisting you agree with me... 

Modifié par Zeleen, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:16 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Zeleen wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

As Queen she should have at least prisoned Loghain for his "treason" - which it was- as a daughter she let it slide (might as well ignore)...  so she wasn't exactly acting as a queen or ruler - she was acting as a daughter..  (IMO)

Treason? Please tell me I'm not expected to have this argument twice at once on the same thread.

Holy crapolo...  why argument - I clearly state it's only my opinion - I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with me...  and certainly this doesn't deserve pages AND pages of arguments..  I am only stating where I come from and not insisting you agree with me... 

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how that happened either.

Edit: Maybe Gaider put a curse on the BSN servers just for the evulz?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:19 .

[Zeleen]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

As Queen she should have at least prisoned Loghain for his "treason" - which it was- as a daughter she let it slide (might as well ignore)...  so she wasn't exactly acting as a queen or ruler - she was acting as a daughter..  (IMO)

Treason? Please tell me I'm not expected to have this argument twice at once on the same thread.

Holy crapolo...  why argument - I clearly state it's only my opinion - I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with me...  and certainly this doesn't deserve pages AND pages of arguments..  I am only stating where I come from and not insisting you agree with me... 

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how that happened either.

Edit: Maybe Gaider put a curse on the BSN servers just for the evulz?

heh heh - distraction from "flaming" DA3

[Shadow Fox]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zeleen wrote...

As Queen she should have at least prisoned Loghain for his "treason" - which it was- as a daughter she let it slide (might as well ignore)...  so she wasn't exactly acting as a queen or ruler - she was acting as a daughter..  (IMO)

Treason? Please tell me I'm not expected to have this argument twice at once on the same thread.

Holy crapolo...  why argument - I clearly state it's only my opinion - I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with me...  and certainly this doesn't deserve pages AND pages of arguments..  I am only stating where I come from and not insisting you agree with me... 

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how that happened either.

Edit: Maybe Gaider put a curse on the BSN servers just for the evulz?

Gaider's a maleficar!?

[mousestalker]

BSN was made to serve man, never to rule over him.

[Zeleen]

mousestalker wrote...

BSN was made to serve man, never to rule over him.

**snickers and snorts**  this is good

[Costin_Razvan]

I think it's pretty clear that they have sought to vilify Loghain. DA3 will tell us for certain.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 octobre 2012 - 10:33 .

[KingRoxas]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I think it's pretty clear that they have sought to vilify Loghain. DA3 will tell us for certain.

Well if Loghain isnt (Hailed as a patriotic figure with a Mabari at his side for defending his country from those Orlesians!!/ and Darkspawn) im going to be pissed Bioware >! (If Loghain killed the Archdemon with Anora / Anora and Cousland ruling.)

Modifié par Kingroxas, 28 octobre 2012 - 10:54 .

[Terrorize69]

How can no one like Alistair xD

[Wulfram]

Loghain is liable to go down in Thedosian history as the bad guy even if he wasn't. That's reasonable enough. He lost, after all.

Though maybe Bioware could put in an exception for the Redeemer ending. Though that would really annoy my Canon warden.

[AlexanderCousland]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
I would rather have any of the others doing it. Loghain's judment throughout the game has just been horrible.

Let's put this into perspective, Lohgain, The Hero of River Dane, The General who implemented the strategies
that were responsible for securing Fereldan's Independance after centriues of Orleasian occupation, Lohgain, the man who risked life and limb for Maric and Rowan battle after battle. The man who deafeted a Leigion of Chevalier's. If you wouldn't hire somebody with credentials like that, I wouldnt want to work for you. Last time I checked, Cailin was King, and He decided that He wanted to fight on the Frontline's (like a idiot, with no heir) and He also decided he wanted to be a Orlesian Emperor, not a Fereldan King.

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Well, his plan A involved a horde of demons, abominations, and undead pouring out of Redcliffe and Circle Tower while Denerim fell because it had no support from the dwarves or the elves and no Grey Wardens. There comes a point at which a man has to admit he's failed and step down. Loghain was well past that point..

Oh, really?  I must have missed the part where Lohgain encouraged Uldred and Connor to allow themselves to be posessed by Demon's, where's that cut scene at?  We dont know what would have happend if Lohgain carried out his plan because our Warden's joined up with Arl Eamon and started a Civil War with the Dude in the middle of a Blight. I remember him sending troop's to Orzammar to try to get help. What we know is he wouldnt have been able to kill the Archdemon, but  we didnt even know that until the final battle.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Terrorize69 wrote...

How can no one like Alistair xD

Very easily.

[Persephone]

FreshIstay wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
I would rather have any of the others doing it. Loghain's judment throughout the game has just been horrible.

Let's put this into perspective, Lohgain, The Hero of River Dane, The General who implemented the strategies
that were responsible for securing Fereldan's Independance after centriues of Orleasian occupation, Lohgain, the man who risked life and limb for Maric and Rowan battle after battle. The man who deafeted a Leigion of Chevalier's. If you wouldn't hire somebody with credentials like that, I wouldnt want to work for you. Last time I checked, Cailin was King, and He decided that He wanted to fight on the Frontline's (like a idiot, with no heir) and He also decided he wanted to be a Orlesian Emperor, not a Fereldan King.

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Well, his plan A involved a horde of demons, abominations, and undead pouring out of Redcliffe and Circle Tower while Denerim fell because it had no support from the dwarves or the elves and no Grey Wardens. There comes a point at which a man has to admit he's failed and step down. Loghain was well past that point..

Oh, really?  I must have missed the part where Lohgain encouraged Uldred and Connor to allow themselves to be posessed by Demon's, where's that cut scene at?  We dont know what would have happend if Lohgain carried out his plan because our Warden's joined up with Arl Eamon and started a Civil War with the Dude in the middle of a Blight. I remember him sending troop's to Orzammar to try to get help. What we know is he wouldnt have been able to kill the Archdemon, but  we didnt even know that until the final battle.

Yup. A lot of factors added to the debacle at Ostagar. Factors that can be blamed on Cailan as much as Loghain. Loghain himself points out that it's easy to blame him despite the fact that Cailan leading the charge against the horde caused his death. As someone who has recruited him many times however, I will say that he blames himself more than all of his haters combined. He bloody WANTS TO DIE once you've beaten him and has some lovely lines about it. "I failed. Lives were in my hands and I failed. Nothing excuses that." or "Glory? No....but forgiveness...perhaps." (If accused at making a last grab for glory when he suggests to kill the AD in your stead) Or "I have no reason to save my own life. But if this could save yours.... You need not pay any more for my mistakes than you already have." Or "I want to ride back to Denerim and sit in the war room with no empty chairs at the table. I want to lose nothing else. I want a line, clearly drawn, that I can defend." Or "Please, I have done so much wrong. Allow me to do one last thing right."

There is so much heartfelt emotion here. This is a character who will cross the line separating heroism from the sublime if given the chance.

And that is why I will defend him when he is called evil, a traitor who sought power or whatever slurs are usually tossed around.

Alistair hasn't got half as much depth.

*Puts on flame shield*

I regret nothing. Except that the hateful attitude towards him has robbed the DA universe of its most polarizing, deep, fascinating, multi-faceted, tragic character it ever had.

[Monica21]

Persephone wrote...
Yup. A lot of factors added to the debacle at Ostagar. Factors that can be blamed on Cailan as much as Loghain. Loghain himself points out that it's easy to blame him despite the fact that Cailan leading the charge against the horde caused his death. As someone who has recruited him many times however, I will say that he blames himself more than all of his haters combined. He bloody WANTS TO DIE once you've beaten him and has some lovely lines about it. "I failed. Lives were in my hands and I failed. Nothing excuses that." or "Glory? No....but forgiveness...perhaps." (If accused at making a last grab for glory when he suggests to kill the AD in your stead) Or "I have no reason to save my own life. But if this could save yours.... You need not pay any more for my mistakes than you already have." Or "I want to ride back to Denerim and sit in the war room with no empty chairs at the table. I want to lose nothing else. I want a line, clearly drawn, that I can defend." Or "Please, I have done so much wrong. Allow me to do one last thing right."

There is so much heartfelt emotion here. This is a character who will cross the line separating heroism from the sublime if given the chance.

And that is why I will defend him when he is called evil, a traitor who sought power or whatever slurs are usually tossed around.

Alistair hasn't got half as much depth.

*Puts on flame shield*

I regret nothing. Except that the hateful attitude towards him has robbed the DA universe of its most polarizing, deep, fascinating, multi-faceted, tragic character it ever had.

I'll put on my flame shield and stand next to you. It's not that I dislike Alistair, it's that don't find him half as interesting as Loghain. When given the chance, why wouldn't I recruit him? My canon Warden's father fought with him to free Ferelden. She's probably grown up hearing stories about him. Why would I pass over the chance to fight next to someone I likely grew up idolizing? He's a living legend and everything he says and does after you recruit him doesn't disappoint.

And this is why BioWare's portrayal of him in DA2 is depressing. I get that the victors write history, but the history presented isn't the history my Warden lived. He's a cartoon villain and he deserves better.

[goofyomnivore]

As Queen she should have at least prisoned Loghain

Anora really can't rule until the Landsmeet acknowledges her as the ruler. At least that is how I understood it. Her only connection to the throne was her husband. And well he is dead. Loghain has actually a greater claim than her being the general of the armies and only living Teyrn.

I was also sad to see how DA ][ painted Loghain. I don't have a save where he killed the Archdemon.. I wonder if he gets more praise in that ending.

Modifié par strive, 29 octobre 2012 - 01:33 .

[Spankoman]

I always kill Loghain. I'd rather not, but the choice as presented is Loghain or Alistair. Alistair is the more honorable man, and I'd rather keep him around. And I reason, whether or not Loghain is as gross as he seems, someone has to pay for epic failure, and it may as well be the dude who presided over it.

[AlexanderCousland]

What does Honor have to do with being a Grey Warden or King?
Maric had a thing for elven women and serving maids, Honor...bah the only honor exists for kings is the battles they win, an the lands they takover, what honor is there in war? There is no time for emotions within they Warden Ranks and Alistair carries plenty of them, he's off on an adventure now looking for daddy, who knows whats brewing in Fereldan while civil war is inevitable.

Im not sayin Alistair is a bad dude, in my opinion, he should be slaying darkspawn for a living or drinking in the hanged man until his liver Taint's over.

[ledod]

Sorry for the total non sequitur contribution to this thread, but didn't Loghain commit regicide during a time of blight? Super irresponsible, yes?

[Spankoman]

FreshIstay wrote...

What does Honor have to do with being a Grey Warden or King?
Maric had a thing for elven women and serving maids, Honor...bah the only honor exists for kings is the battles they win, an the lands they takover, what honor is there in war? There is no time for emotions within they Warden Ranks and Alistair carries plenty of them, he's off on an adventure now looking for daddy, who knows whats brewing in Fereldan while civil war is inevitable.

Im not sayin Alistair is a bad dude, in my opinion, he should be slaying darkspawn for a living or drinking in the hanged man until his liver Taint's over.

I don't agree. Hooray for being able to RP however we want!

[Monica21]

ledod wrote...

Sorry for the total non sequitur contribution to this thread, but didn't Loghain commit regicide during a time of blight? Super irresponsible, yes?

Since we've been disagreeing on that for the last 15 pages or so, I don't see how it's a non sequitor.

[goofyomnivore]

but didn't Loghain commit regicide during a time of blight? Super irresponsible, yes?

Technically by retreating yes, but he would of probably lost the whole army (and Ferelden) had he not retreated. Kind of a conflict of interests; save the king or the country? Duncan and Loghain both tried to save Cailan, but sometimes you can't save stupid.

[ledod]

Monica21 wrote...

ledod wrote...

Sorry for the total non sequitur contribution to this thread, but didn't Loghain commit regicide during a time of blight? Super irresponsible, yes?

Since we've been disagreeing on that for the last 15 pages or so, I don't see how it's a non sequitor.

thought this was about Alistair... flipped through a couple posts, saw Loghain, then asked about him. I refered to it as a tangent, because I wasn't sure if the last most-recent posts were about Loghain. (Didn't read the most recent posts before I made my contribution )