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[HTTP 404]

Anora's a B. Alistair reminds me of OP, all whine.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 29 octobre 2012 - 09:03 .

[Mello]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Except ther's nothing stopping Loghain from just killing you when your back is turned.*same with Zevran and Shale actually*

Except Loghain has no reason to and only wants to stop the Blight without Orlais help.

Petty vengeance, maybe. From a metagame perspective, we know that's not Loghain. But how does our Warden?

I just trust people too easily. :innocent:

That and because Riordan recommends him and I'm not going to disagree with a senior warden, even if the game allows me.

You mean the guy you barely know and has been locked up in a cell for who knows how long so his judgement might be a little off that Riordan?

And isnt Riordan from Orlais? 

[Teddie Sage]

All this debate reminds me of the Cowboys vs Native Americans game that kids used to play. "My gun is stronger than your bow because I said so!" There will always be counter-arguments to anything you say about this franchise, so let's all agree to disagree.

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 29 octobre 2012 - 09:08 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...


If he's as smart as you say he is then how did he not see it coming why not let his dauther try to smooth things over rather then basically telling her to stay in the kitchen?Jowan and the Templar he bribed and gee he couldn't bother to tell Howe *"make sure this can't be connected to me okay?" regarding the torture and slavery?

Well, I don't think I've ever heard anybody claim he's good at politics. 

[Nerevar-as]

iPoohCupCakes wrote...

And isnt Riordan from Orlais? 

I think he was Fereldan but raised in Orlais.

[Monica21]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
You mean the guy you barely know and has been locked up in a cell for who knows how long so his judgement might be a little off that Riordan?

If anything, that gives Riordan reason to want Loghain dead too, given his alliance with Howe.

And for what it's worth, I always give Alistair a strength and dex build too, and I have no problems with Loghain staying alive longer.

[Shadow Fox]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...


If he's as smart as you say he is then how did he not see it coming why not let his dauther try to smooth things over rather then basically telling her to stay in the kitchen?Jowan and the Templar he bribed and gee he couldn't bother to tell Howe *"make sure this can't be connected to me okay?" regarding the torture and slavery?

Well, I don't think I've ever heard anybody claim he's good at politics. 

Didn't he act as Maric's advisor though?

[JamieCOTC]

David Gaider wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Sorry. Then I'll just say... it was "dumb". That's all.

Fair enough. Opinions are precious butterflies, to be certain. My opinion is that, from Alistair's perspective, it's his "beloved" who betrays him at the Landsmeet. The woman he loved, who he thought understood him and knew that Loghain's murder of all his comrades (as well as his mentor) deserved justice, has decided that Loghain should instead be given a place in an order which, to him, represents all good things. That Loghain will be given a chance at redemption rather than the ignoble execution he deserves.

There is a point where players expect to be able to influence their companions, but I argue there should also be a point at which those companions should not bend to your every whim no matter how much they like you. They expect that you like them too, and that this means you should be as willing to do what they want as much as they're willing to do what you want. To not do so turns the character into a sock-puppet for your will, which while very gratifying to the ego wouldn't make for a very human characterization of Alistair.

Is it maddening that he disagrees with you, after having been willing to follow your lead up until that point? Absolutely. I seldom see people actually analyze the situation, however, to determine the level of their betrayal of Alistair as much as his betrayal of them. In my mind, the only thing Alistair does which is unequivocably wrong is when he up and leaves the Wardens once the decision is made. Surely the fate of the world is more important than that? Being human, however, he simply doesn't want to be in the same order that accepts Loghain... and, far more importantly, doesn't want to be near you.

Does finding Alistair drunk in Kirkwall mean he pines for power he never even wanted? Not at all. If that's what you think, I'd venture you're not reading the dialogue. He despairs at what happened, and regrets his decision to leave. He despairs the man he has become compared to what he was, or could have been. Which is pathetic, since he walked away from it, but such is the way of drunks (and forum posters) that self-awareness isn't high on their list of concerns when they're complaining about something.

That is, however, simply my opinion. Regardless of what I intended when I wrote him, people will add their own interpretations to it, and more power to them. I just simply will never respect the person who doesn't own up to the fact that there was an element of selfishness on their own part in betraying Alistair as well.

While I understand why Alistair would view it as a personal betrayal in allowing Loghain to join the Wardens, there is a much larger issue at hand. When Riordan brought the matter up and Alistair balked I was surprised that there was not an option to ask Alistair what would Duncan do?  I would imagine Alistair would become even more irate at his friend or beloved for throwing Duncan in his face, but he would have to see the logic in the request if presented in that manner. As far as the Warden knew, especially a mage, Duncan would do just about anything to end the blight. Allowing Loghain to become a Warden might drive a personal wedge between Alistair and the Warden, but a Warden’s life is all about sacrifice and there is a greater threat than a lost friend.
 
That said, I typically side w/ Alistair in the matter w/ my femWarden RPing it that she made the decision for personal reasons knowing full well it was most likely the wrong choice. So in the end I do get a good play out of it, but still find it a curious standoff. 

[Persephone]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

How many people does Alistair try to guilt me into killing? How many people do I kill out of self-preservation? Nobody's saying the Warden is a pacifist, but there is a distinct difference between killing people because they are trying to kill you, and killing a man who's on his knees and has just surrendered.

Did you spare Caladrius, then?

While I get the point of bringing Caladrius up, the situation is different.  A Loghain in the Grey wardens will have no power, he will be told what to do by the more senior grey wardens, and he has a good chance of dying at the end of it.  Caladrius isn't just walking out with his own life, but the life of his slaves as well.  If he were willing to exchange the slaves for money, and leave them behind, then maybe I could let him walk.  But the fact that he is bringing elven slaves with him when he leaves, that is a lot less palatable of a choice.  

I realize that to Allistair's perspective, these things are similar.  Allistair probably feels that a Loghain who is allowed to lived is walking away with the lives he has already taken, or maybe he is afraid Loghain will do it again in the future if he is alive.  But the two situations are different because Caladrius has the lives on others in his hand at the moment of the choice, whereas Loghain is a beaten and vulnerable man with his power stripped from him already.

Except ther's nothing stopping Loghain from just killing you when your back is turned.*same with Zevran and Shale actually*

Nothing? Common sense? Survival? Killing your only ally in a sea of hostiles is bloody stupid. He is actually the only companion whose loyalty to you is unshakable, no matter how you treat him. (Except puppy)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Persephone wrote...


Nothing? Common sense? Survival? Killing your only ally in a sea of hostiles is bloody stupid. He is actually the only companion whose loyalty to you is unshakable, no matter how you treat him. (Except puppy)

It's only once you recruit him that you know for sure he won't, though. We know all this out of character, but the only information the Warden gets is Riordan's attempt at calm pragmatism that kind of skates over whether or not he'll try to take revenge if you ask, or even just disobey orders.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 29 octobre 2012 - 10:52 .

[Persephone]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Persephone wrote...


Nothing? Common sense? Survival? Killing your only ally in a sea of hostiles is bloody stupid. He is actually the only companion whose loyalty to you is unshakable, no matter how you treat him. (Except puppy)

It's only once you recruit him that you know for sure he won't, though.

It's goddam logic. Where would he go? He makes it clear what his intentions are in your very first conversation, VOWING to follow you. A vow he never breaks.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Persephone wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Persephone wrote...


Nothing? Common sense? Survival? Killing your only ally in a sea of hostiles is bloody stupid. He is actually the only companion whose loyalty to you is unshakable, no matter how you treat him. (Except puppy)

It's only once you recruit him that you know for sure he won't, though.

It's goddam logic. Where would he go? He makes it clear what his intentions are in your very first conversation, VOWING to follow you. A vow he never breaks.

If you're talking about the one in camp, it's that conversation that cements him as thinking logically with regards to you, and you only get that vow once you recruit him. I'm not arguing it's wrong to do so, I personally believe that looking at all the facts its the right move. The problem is the Warden doesn't yet have all the facts. (Riordan has more of them, but again, I don't know how sure he is that Loghain won't just backstab them.)

(Edit: Was there another one I'm forgetting? I don't think so but it's possible.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 29 octobre 2012 - 10:58 .

[Shadow Fox]

Persephone wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Persephone wrote...


Nothing? Common sense? Survival? Killing your only ally in a sea of hostiles is bloody stupid. He is actually the only companion whose loyalty to you is unshakable, no matter how you treat him. (Except puppy)

It's only once you recruit him that you know for sure he won't, though.

It's goddam logic. Where would he go? He makes it clear what his intentions are in your very first conversation, VOWING to follow you. A vow he never breaks.

So it's logic to assume the guy who left his army to die and who spent most of the game trying to kill you won't finish the job himself when he gets the chance?

[Monica21]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
So it's logic to assume the guy who left his army to die and who spent most of the game trying to kill you won't finish the job himself when he gets the chance?

Well, if you completely ignore everything he says to you when he surrenders I guess you can absolutely choose to believe he'll kill you. But "there's a strength in you I haven't seen since Maric died" is a pretty strong endorsement of you.

[Persephone]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Persephone wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

And you picked him over the man you said you loved, and who trusted you. And that doesn't constitute a betrayal on your part whatsoever. Yes, got it.

It may be seen as such but, David, no friend or lover of mine could ever guilt me into killing someone. Doesn't that make a modicum of sense?

That made me curious enough to question -- does it mean you cannot picture yourself ever in a situation in which you'd allow your very good friend and/or lover to take revenge on a person who'd in cold blood murdered their entire family? .

First, I do not share the view that Loghain murdered the people Alistair considered his family. In cold blood or otherwise.

No, I could not picture that. I do not believe in murder/revenge. Revenge twists and taints your very core like a plague.

“Revenge is barren of itself: it is the dreadful food it feeds on; its delight is murder, and its end is despair.”
Friedrich von Schiller

That answers your question, I guess.

I see you played a HN so let me ask you would you have been okay with Alistair making Howe a warden?

Yes. (Even though Alistair would never have suggested it)

What the Warden does in the whole Arl of Denerim estate plot is:

Breaking in

Murder

Vigilantism

My Canon Warden would never have done this if the plot had not railroaded her into it.

[Persephone]

Monica21 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
So it's logic to assume the guy who left his army to die and who spent most of the game trying to kill you won't finish the job himself when he gets the chance?

Well, if you completely ignore everything he says to you when he surrenders I guess you can absolutely choose to believe he'll kill you. But "there's a strength in you I haven't seen since Maric died" is a pretty strong endorsement of you.

There is this. And I never took his actions personally. My Cousland knew how the game of politics goes. And again, he did not leave his army to die. From my Cousland's perspective: If Teyrn Loghain withdraws from a battle, there must be a damn good reason for it. Never mind that she actually SAW the much larger horde and REMEMBERED being late in lighting the beacon.

Loghain has nothing to gain from killing you once you recruit him. All he wants is to save Ferelden and end the Blight. Neither will happen if he goes for petty revenge ala Alistair. That's just not him.

Modifié par Persephone, 29 octobre 2012 - 11:22 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Persephone wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
So it's logic to assume the guy who left his army to die and who spent most of the game trying to kill you won't finish the job himself when he gets the chance?

Well, if you completely ignore everything he says to you when he surrenders I guess you can absolutely choose to believe he'll kill you. But "there's a strength in you I haven't seen since Maric died" is a pretty strong endorsement of you.

There is this. And I never took his actions personally. My Cousland knew how the game of politics goes. And again, he did not leave his army to die. From my Cousland's perspective: If Teyrn Loghain withdraws from a battle, there must be a damn good reason for it. Never mind that she actually SAW the much larger horde and REMEMBERED being late in lighting the beacon.

Loghain has nothing to gain from killing you once you recruit him. All he wants is to save Ferelden and end the Blight. Neither will happen if he goes for petty revenge ala Alistair. That's just not him.

Whether or not the Warden thinks of all this is up to the player, the same as whether or not that player's Warden trusts Loghain. All I'm saying is that I don't think the Warden can be sure that giving him a chance is the right move until (s)he tries it. Edit: Well, that and that Loghain could probably kill the Warden in his/her sleep before anyone could do anything if the Warden did turn out to be wrong. Purely hypothetical of course, but something the Warden would probably consider.

As for the endorsement, as far as the Warden knows he's faking. In particular, any Dwarf Noble who does not understand the concept of being nice to people he/she doesn't actually like should be ground up and fed to nugs. Especially when they're considering whether or not to kill you. That's not what Loghain is doing, but a Dwarf Noble may or may not be capable of realizing that depending on the Noble in question.* I'd imagine said noble has also had to deal with a lot of non-pragmatic, Malice Before Reason B.S. from his city, so he can't neccesarily trust that Loghain's thinking straight either. As for the "Teyrn Loghain would not retreat without reason" thing, the non-Ferelden wardens wouldn't think of that, nor does it answer the question of whether or not Loghain will try to kill the Warden the second said Warden turns his/her back. There are roleplaying reasons to kill Loghain that don't involve kissing up to Alistair or revenge for his perceived betrayal. (Though to be frank, whenever I do it it's for one of those two reasons. With my first DE I imagined him as being aware that it wasn't Loghain's fault and taking revenge anyway. I don't always play a nice person.)

*A DC would have the same problem, having kissed up to Beraht for no other reason than because (s)he's probably going to die painfully if (s)he doesn't.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 octobre 2012 - 12:02 .

[Shadow Fox]

Hanz54321 wrote...

It's nice to see that Modified Godwin's Law still applies on the BSN. All discussions eventually lead to Loghain.

I read something about Loghain's vow and how we really don't know he won't betray us until we talk in camp and yada yada.

I thought it was pretty clear after he is defeated in the one on one duel that he believes the Warden is the better person to lead Fereldan. He says so, and he accepts his fate. I think it's pretty obvious he's not going to betray the Warden as soon as he concedes the Warden is the man to lead Fereldan against The Blight.

On topic: if someone does not want Alistair as King in DA: Inquisition, then write some fan fic of your own and read it back to yourself. We can't always get what we want.

Right it's not that he could just be lying right?

[Costin_Razvan]

Riverdaleswhiteflash: I have to argue a bit on the DN part. Playing a DN as my cannon at that point I had made Bhelen king despite what he did since I considered him better for the job and cared more for my people then petty power or revenge.

[David Gaider]

I know I contributed to this discussion, but it seems to have veered wildly away from having anything to do with DA3. Unless that happens quickly, the thread will be closed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Actually, I think you solved the question this thread was meant to address on page 5. Maybe it's time?

@Costin: I actually spared Loghain and crowned Bhelen as my DN. All I'm saying is that a Dwarf Noble ought to realize it's possible Loghain's faking.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 octobre 2012 - 01:22 .

[dragonflight288]

Zeleen wrote...

@ dragonflight288 - I agree -- and by the way - great signature...

Thanks. I like my sig as well.

Now how it may apply to DA3. (not the sig)

A hardened Alistair, but not married to Anora, has a lot of nobles trying to be opportunistic. But he's willing to do what it takes to keep power and to punish those who are trying to commit treason.

An unhardened Alistair who didn't marry Anora has Eamon pulling his hair out.

A hardened Alistair who married (either Anora or Female Cousland) is a popular king and he gets things done. He's no puppet and takes active steps to deal with the situation in Orlais without fear of what the Ferelden nobility is plotting.

An unhardened but married Alistair lets Eamon or Anora run everything and he's like Cailan, off playing hero on the front lines. BUT he doesn't make the same foolish mistakes Cailan made like trusting more in glory and legends than reality and isn't a glory seeker.

[Merilsell]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

That still doesn't mean, no ruling man in history didn't have a bajillion mistresses....

Which Alistair is willing to do, and my impression is that he gets away with it.

...Only if he's "hardened" and even then you have to persuade him pretty fiercely.

Pursuade him fiercely?

Toolset says no. 

If you take the "Nobody can force the king to do anything he doesn't want to" option he is exactly asking you ONCE to ensure he had heard it right. Then goes "You know what, you are right." right away.

And 'Screw it...I do what I want' is the toolset note here, btw.

That is all BUT the definition of fierce persuading...but whatever. 

[EpicBoot2daFace]

David Gaider wrote...

I know I contributed to this discussion, but it seems to have veered wildly away from having anything to do with DA3. Unless that happens quickly, the thread will be closed.

****, umm... will Alistair be a grandpa in Dragon Age 3?