673 réponses à ce sujet

[Solmanian]

Guns wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Loghain is an interesting character, and he's still alive for some people. Warden Loghain is in Orlais, and the protagonist of Inquisition is supposed to visit Orlais. Perhaps the protagonist might run into Loghain. King Alistair mentions he's still alive in Act III, so he hasn't succumbed to the Calling. If a faction in Orlais is serious trying to reclaim Ferelden (as Tegan mentions), I doubt Loghain would do nothing about it.
 

That all depends on how good of a warden Loghain is. Grey wardens are suppose to abandon their old lives and be politically neutral. Something Alistair didn't really do, which is why my Warden rarely took his contributions/opinions into consideration. 

Hmmm... somehow I don't see Loghain behaving too differently though so you're probably right.

It's impossible to remain politicaly neutral when the current administration wiped out your friends and is actively hunting you...

Wardens are like spectres. They're suppose to be neutral, but at the same time expected to do whatever it takes to echieve their objective: ending the blight. If a the king of the land where the blight is centered refuses to acknowledge the darkspawn threat, refusing to allow allied forces to enter his country, and actively impeding the wardens efforts to fight the blight, than it's not only reasonable, but also expected of them to remove him from office. The wardens are an international organization, and although they rely on the local soveriegn for support, when it comes to the darkspawn threat, their authority supercedes all others as indicated by the right of conscription.

[Zeleen]

ooops sorry - thought this was about Alistair as King in DA3

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Zeleen wrote...

ooops sorry - thought this was about Alistair as King in DA3

I think that was the poster's intention, but on this forum the OP's intention means very little.

[Orian Tabris]

BioWare has clearly stated that there is no canon story in Dragon Age. It's not like killing Alistair will ever make no sense in a later situation.

Saying that Alistair becoming king is canon, is like saying Sten being saved, from the darkspawn in Lothering, by the Warden is canon. There is nothing to suggest that Alistair must become king.

F.Y.I., Anders turning bi, is an even worse change than his getting a different voice actor. You know what I suggest? Don't romance Anders with a ManHawke, ignore the fact that Karl "was his first" time with a man, and romance Fenris with a ManHawke, instead. Fenris wasn't straight or bi or gay prior to DA2, and he wasn't a character before DA2.

[Wereparrot]

Exceptions notwithstanding, real-world crown law tends to punish the bastard for the reigning monarch's infedelity, so that's what I do too. Unfair maybe, but you can't have any randomer claiming the throne by virtue of being the illegitimate son of the king by an even more random peasant who can't even be traced. That and Alistair does not live up to my idea of a good king. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if King Alistair was canon or at least given preferential treatment given the liberal slant of the DA universe. It's clear that this is the game's preferred outcome for the Landsmeet anyway.

[Fiacre]

Orian Tabris wrote...

F.Y.I., Anders turning bi, is an even worse change than his getting a different voice actor. You know what I suggest? Don't romance Anders with a ManHawke, ignore the fact that Karl "was his first" time with a man, and romance Fenris with a ManHawke, instead. Fenris wasn't straight or bi or gay prior to DA2, and he wasn't a character before DA2.

I've never understood that argument. there are plenty of bisexuals who have a preference for one sex over the other -- maybe Anders is more attracted to women, but has no problem with being with a man if the right one comes along. Or maybe he doesn't want to tell just everyone about it -- it took me... five years maybe to tell my mother, despite knowing that she wouldn't have a problem with it, and I only ever told my closest friend.

[Melima]

David Gaider wrote...

I know I contributed to this discussion, but it seems to have veered wildly away from having anything to do with DA3. Unless that happens quickly, the thread will be closed.

King Alistair in DA 3: I hope he is there, and I hope it is optional, at the very least, to have more than a cameo appearance for Alistair. I am one of those players who is hoping for a happier ending than I got with Alistair. Any female who has a romance with Alistair may be (depending on you, of course) disappointed at how the ending with Alistair turns out in Origins. If you are a dwarf, elf, or a mage, Alistair will not marry you. You'll have to be careful in your conversation with Alistair not to be entirely dumped in front of all of your companions. Yes, you can be a mistress to him, you can be a Chancellor, but he tells you that he must find another woman to make an heir with out of duty -- even if you become Queen (as a Cousland) -- so you get a heads up that he'll be cheating on you 'out of duty'. I'm not fine with that. (Yes, I know it's because supposedly the folks will barely accept him as a bastard, so it's sure they won't accept a dwarf, elf or mage Queen.) I hope Alistair's family secrets -- on his mother's side -- come out, and along with all of the uproar in Thedas, Ferelden learns to mature into an even less prejudice country.

It's my opinion that the books lead to Fiona as being Alistair's mother. I've heard the arguments, but that's still the conclusion I've reached. She's an ELF (strike one, you might say, as Alistair's/Eamon's/whomever's argument against you vs. Alistair being accepted if you're not a Cousland), she's from ORLAIS (strike two), and she's a MAGE (strike three), plus she's also a GREY WARDEN. Still alive, and untainted, due to a brooch, or her pregnancy with Alistair at the time by Maric -- or even Maric's blood, if you see information from the Silent Grove -- or some combination. So, I hope that there is a huge dealing with this whole facet of Alistair and the prejudice, and the Warden. Perhaps Alistair is consequently not tainted unto death by 'the Calling'? (In my imagination of fan fiction in my own head,... *ahem*  my Warden was secretly pregnant, discovered it after Alistair dumped her as she was going away and leaving the King of Ferelden alone for a time, became ill in her travels, discovered her condition, and has kept the child hidden with a secret hired staff of people -- but I digress -- *cough* and will also not be tainted to an early death.)

I have imagined some scene -- and would like to see it -- where, for instance, Alistair shows the amulet to Goldanna, asking her some mundane question about their mother in regards to the amulet. Goldanna would then reply in her harpy tones something like, "What?! Me mother would never wear that!" She spits at the amulet. "It's got some elvish writing, and look at that flower engraving! That looks Orlesian to me! Me mother wouldn't wear trash from a knife-ear or one o' them painted-faced pigs!" Eamon's and Teegan's faces might go ghostly pale at that moment and they'd have to start stammering around while Alistair, in some shock, went after the truth from them, becoming more angry as he realized how many lies he's been told all of his life. Alistair gets relief at not being related to Goldanna, but he's going to go on a quest to find his mother, as well as continue his search he began for Maric in Silent Grove. I hope he wants the Warden's help -- his trusted love (or friend, depending on your story, or antagonist).

Duncan's body was never found. I'm wondering if Duncan's alive and tainted, and we might come across him in DA III -- and I hope we do, and I hope we are able to help him find a cure! I also hope we learn of Morrigan's Old God baby. I want to find out if Flemeth really is a dragon who only shapeshifts into a human form, not the other way around, and if Flemeth is one of the original old gods -- perhaps before they discovered the Grey Warden joining ritual, when the archdemon's soul would still go into the nearest darkspawn -- or perhaps she was an old god baby herself. I want to know more of Hawke, of course, as well as Anders, Fenris, and all the others to a lesser extent -- including Sten (what is his actual name, anyway, and did he ever get his cake? )

So,...there is lots to find out, and I hope we don't get left hanging, whatever our individual curiousities are!

*Note to the Loghain/Anora/Alistair as Ruler of Ferelden arguments: I look at the Alienage under Anora's rule, Loghain's slavery of elves, (plus numerous unsavory things -- to me -- of those two personnas) and I don't want them in power. As a Warden in a romance with Alistair, I didn't want Anora married to him either, but I did make that alternate ending, which was good for Ferelden, as Alistair learned plenty of empathy in general for others, even if he wasn't able to make that next step toward a Warden-Queen who wasn't a noble, free of magic. (I say noble, free of magic because we learn that the Amells were once pretty important in Kirkwall, but the mage thing, you know, in Thedas, keeps messing things up. ) It is my opinion that Alistair is a good king, (hardened) and I'd much rather have him ruling alone than Anora ruling alone, though obviously I'd rather have Alistair and my Warden together for the good of Ferelden (without the infidelity crap).

King Cailan was spoiled, careless, well-spoken but not too intelligent, and yes, messed things up for himself at Ostagar. On the other hand, it hurt me to see him fall, and it hurt me to see him stuck up like he was by the darkspawn. In new game plays ever after, it struck me to see him alive and smiling, knowing what was to come for Cailan.

Modifié par Melima, 04 novembre 2012 - 03:45 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

We've got a definite "no" on Duncan returning in any future work.

[Melima]

Yes, I saw someone say that Mr. David Gaider stated that about Duncan. Well, I hope we can bury him decently or something, that he was not totally consumed by darkspawn and turned into black-blooded excrement on some rocky cavern floor. *sigh*

Modifié par Melima, 05 novembre 2012 - 03:41 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Persephone wrote...

Alikain wrote...

I don't get people who choose to let loghain join the warden. Here is a man who killed his best friend son, for his own selfish reason.

Cailan's death was his own doing. If you fight on the front lines, give incompetent commands and ignore everyone's advice, your fate is sealed.

Loghain urged Cailan to stay away from the front lines. Cailan refused. Then he must bear the risks/consequences. War is merciless that way.

How was Cailan wrong?  It was decided at the war council (which Loghain agrees too) the flanking of the darkspawn, with his troops.  Cailan had already defeated the darkspawn on several occassions before The Warden and Duncan even arrive at Ostagar.  So he must have been doing something right.  At least Cailan didn't run and he died with honor as any King should do when fighting for his people.  Cailan made all the right decisions in my opinion.  He also sent his half-brother to the tower to keep him relatively safe, his half-brother who is a Warden and one other Warden to get word to the Orleasian Wardens that Ostagar was a massacre.  Cailan did have a plan B.  This is a wise king.  Cailan saw to it there was a plan B for the people of Ferelden.  Cailan even over rules Loghain with sending Alistair and The Warden to the Tower of Ishal.  The survivors of Ostagar know that the tower signal was lit so I don' have a problem with Loghain being demonized in DA2.

I don't know about you; but, I'd rather be fighting next to my King and see his example that my life is just as important as his and his family.  He is on the front lines with me.  In the opening battle scene one man does want to cut and run and if one runs, then everyone will and I'm sure Cailan knew this.   Cailan wasn't just sitting on a horse miles away with the opportunity to save his own skin when the time came that the battle was lost.  At least Cailan died doing what an honorable King would do, sacrifice his own life for his country and his people.  He was more honorable than Loghain that day.   Loghain swore fealty to King Maric and King Cailan, and he went against his word with is oath of featly to those kings and not defend the king's life on the battlefield, which was his sworn duty as a Teyrn.  If Loghain had any concern for his daughter he would have given his life for Cailan's.  Which he didn't do.  It was a power grab pure and simple, with the excuse that the Cailan was ignorant of battle tactics.

Even if you don't play the Human Noble Origin, Howe kills all of the Cousland's.  So we don't know if Fergus and the rest of Highever's troops even made it to the battle.  I don't recall, it's been so long since I've played Origins.  Howe was Loghain's right hand man even if Loghain lies about it at the Landsmeet which he does.  So with Teyrn Cousland being murdered, Loghain planned to allow Cailan to die at Ostagar before it even happened.  Loghain and Bryce Cousland are both Teyrns who train/house most of the King's troops.  Bryce had one battalion and Loghain had the other.  As far as I'm concerned Loghain planned all along for Cailan to die at Ostagar.  He meant for it happen so I have to agree with Alistair.  A man like Loghain is not a man I want at my back within the Wardens fighting an Arch Demon, The Architect, or The Mother.  

If you read the book "The Stolen Throne,"  Flemeth flat out tells Prince Maric that Loghain will one day betray him.  Loghain in the book is in love with Queen Rowan, so what happened to Loghain to make him turn his back on his beloved's son at Ostagar?  We still don't have a clear cut answer for this.  For all we know, Loghain could have sold Maric off into slavery as well.  Just because we are told that he looked for Maric doesn't mean that he did.  We do know with the  darkhorse comics that Maric had a chore for Flemeth to do.  So who really knows?  Maybe Yvanna, (Flemeth's other daughter), acutally was trying to rescue Maric from sold slavery or imprisonment by the crows on Loghain's order.  Maybe this is why Zevran was actually sent to Ferelden to kill Maric or Cailan.  Or find out more on why Maric had to disappear?  We just don't know.  There are so many ways this could go. 

I wouldn't trust Loghain in the Order of Wardens either.  I feel Alistair is right about that.  I think the best solution to make in that situation is for Alistair to marry Anora and tell Loghain he has to kill the Arch demon.  Thus, no ritual with Morrigan.  You keep your own life and fullfill your duty as a Warden.  I still haven't taken Loghain into the order.  I just can't bring myself to do it.  One day maybe. 

I agree also that Riordan's words of wisdom need to be taken into consideration.  Since he was the Senior Warden, why didn't Riordan overrule Alistair and the Warden both at the Landsmeet and accept Loghain?  It would have been nice to see this option, in hind sight.  Then let the landsmeet decide on their own who should be Queen or King, keeping the warden out of it.  It sure was an interesting game and the decisions we had to make.   I love DAO because of the undercurrents going on.  I hope we see this in DA3.

[Persephone]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alikain wrote...

I don't get people who choose to let loghain join the warden. Here is a man who killed his best friend son, for his own selfish reason.

Cailan's death was his own doing. If you fight on the front lines, give incompetent commands and ignore everyone's advice, your fate is sealed.

Loghain urged Cailan to stay away from the front lines. Cailan refused. Then he must bear the risks/consequences. War is merciless that way.

How was Cailan wrong?  It was decided at the war council (which Loghain agrees too) the flanking of the darkspawn, with his troops.  Cailan had already defeated the darkspawn on several occassions before The Warden and Duncan even arrive at Ostagar.  So he must have been doing something right.  At least Cailan didn't run and he died with honor as any King should do when fighting for his people.  Cailan made all the right decisions in my opinion.  He also sent his half-brother to the tower to keep him relatively safe, his half-brother who is a Warden and one other Warden to get word to the Orleasian Wardens that Ostagar was a massacre.  Cailan did have a plan B.  This is a wise king.  Cailan saw to it there was a plan B for the people of Ferelden.  Cailan even over rules Loghain with sending Alistair and The Warden to the Tower of Ishal.  The survivors of Ostagar know that the tower signal was lit so I don' have a problem with Loghain being demonized in DA2.

I don't know about you; but, I'd rather be fighting next to my King and see his example that my life is just as important as his and his family.  He is on the front lines with me.  In the opening battle scene one man does want to cut and run and if one runs, then everyone will and I'm sure Cailan knew this.   Cailan wasn't just sitting on a horse miles away with the opportunity to save his own skin when the time came that the battle was lost.  At least Cailan died doing what an honorable King would do, sacrifice his own life for his country and his people.  He was more honorable than Loghain that day.   Loghain swore fealty to King Maric and King Cailan, and he went against his word with is oath of featly to those kings and not defend the king's life on the battlefield, which was his sworn duty as a Teyrn.  If Loghain had any concern for his daughter he would have given his life for Cailan's.  Which he didn't do.  It was a power grab pure and simple, with the excuse that the Cailan was ignorant of battle tactics.

Even if you don't play the Human Noble Origin, Howe kills all of the Cousland's.  So we don't know if Fergus and the rest of Highever's troops even made it to the battle.  I don't recall, it's been so long since I've played Origins.  Howe was Loghain's right hand man even if Loghain lies about it at the Landsmeet which he does.  So with Teyrn Cousland being murdered, Loghain planned to allow Cailan to die at Ostagar before it even happened.  Loghain and Bryce Cousland are both Teyrns who train/house most of the King's troops.  Bryce had one battalion and Loghain had the other.  As far as I'm concerned Loghain planned all along for Cailan to die at Ostagar.  He meant for it happen so I have to agree with Alistair.  A man like Loghain is not a man I want at my back within the Wardens fighting an Arch Demon, The Architect, or The Mother.  

If you read the book "The Stolen Throne,"  Flemeth flat out tells Prince Maric that Loghain will one day betray him.  Loghain in the book is in love with Queen Rowan, so what happened to Loghain to make him turn his back on his beloved's son at Ostagar?  We still don't have a clear cut answer for this.  For all we know, Loghain could have sold Maric off into slavery as well.  Just because we are told that he looked for Maric doesn't mean that he did.  We do know with the  darkhorse comics that Maric had a chore for Flemeth to do.  So who really knows?  Maybe Yvanna, (Flemeth's other daughter), acutally was trying to rescue Maric from sold slavery or imprisonment by the crows on Loghain's order.  Maybe this is why Zevran was actually sent to Ferelden to kill Maric or Cailan.  Or find out more on why Maric had to disappear?  We just don't know.  There are so many ways this could go. 

I wouldn't trust Loghain in the Order of Wardens either.  I feel Alistair is right about that.  I think the best solution to make in that situation is for Alistair to marry Anora and tell Loghain he has to kill the Arch demon.  Thus, no ritual with Morrigan.  You keep your own life and fullfill your duty as a Warden.  I still haven't taken Loghain into the order.  I just can't bring myself to do it.  One day maybe. 

How was he wrong? Oooooh, where to begin? 

He whines about the lack of Archdemon sightings. What WISE king WISHES that on his kingdom? 

He is a glory hound who is "bored by strategies".

He is a ROTTEN commander. His incompetent commands doomed his army.

He is a king without an heir insisting to fight on the front lines. Dumb.

He betrayed his own wife.

He was about to sell out his country and his father's legacy to Orlais.

There is more, but this should suffice.

Cailan defeated nobody, it was Loghain who won those battles. As confirmed in game.

A tactical retreat is not running. It is the only right decision. Died with honor? How romantic & rose tinted. There is no "honorable death" in war.

Loghain never objected to Alistair going to the Tower.

Good for you that you don't give a damn about b/w demonizations of complex characters. I am not surprised.

No. An "honorable" king protects his country by living wisely rather than glory hunting or pulling a Henry VIII. By learning about strategies, tactics etc. Cailan was a man-child, a bloody fool.

So dying in battle erases whatever responsibility Cailan had? That his incompetence killed thousands of his troops? I am sure the dead are happy to have shed their blood for such honor.

Maric himself made Loghain SWEAR to never again put the life of one man above the safety of Ferelden, including the king, at the battle of West Hill. Cailan was beyond saving, like it or not.

And what good would it do Queen Anora to lose both her husband and father for "honor"'s sake? She'd have no one to lead her armies and....really, did you really just say that? Knowing that Cailan planned to cast Anora aside? Cailan himself betrayed Anora. So no, not buying this.

No, it was not a power grab.

Yes, we do know they made it. We meet the troops from Highever at Ostagar and Cailan confirms that Fergus is scouting in the Wilds.

He never lies about that, actually.

Given that word of god confirms that Loghain knew nothing of Howe's plans re: the Couslands, yeah, what about no?

Evidence for a planned murder please. Why would he not support Cailan's notions to play the hero on the front lines? Would have been the easiest way to get rid of him.

Well, the game proves both you and Alistair wrong. Completely wrong.

WHAT? I can't even..... Maric.....slavery? Canon itself, never mind Loghain's entire personality prove that to be utter nonsense. He loved Maric, much against his will, yet he did. The DC comics suggest nothing of the kind. This is beyond ludicrous.

Believe me, people would know if he did not. Your overblown hatred for the man does not change that.

I can't even.....did you REALLY just suggest this? I have no words to do justice to the digust I am feeling.

Neither of you are right about that. The game says otherwise. Utterly and completely.

You haven't recruited him yet, yet assume you know his character fully? Yeah, ok. That explains everything. I could have just saved myself a wall of text.

Modifié par Persephone, 05 novembre 2012 - 11:56 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Loghain did object to the Warden and Alistair going to the tower to light the beacon. Loghain already had men stationed at the tower and he mentions it's not necessary for Alistair and the Warden to light the beacon, so King Cailan did over rule him. The guard at the Tower of Ishal tells you this if you talk with him before the battle while you're running around the camp. Loghains' own guard tells you this. He is the guard who is standing at the entrance to the Tower of Ishal and he tells you this tower is closed on Loghain's orders. If you talk with Cailan's guard at his tent, he says King Cailan is holding his own in fighting the darkspawn, and yes during that conversation we are told that Loghain is fighting with Cailan. We are also told it had something to do with what the Queen did (Anora). So to say Cailan was unfaithful to Anora is a matter of how each player chooses to roleplay this if you take Loghain into the dlc RTO.

Are you forgetting the cut scene where Howe introduces Zevran to Loghain to kill the Wardens? Canon wise from the comics...King Maric is/was alive, even though it was unknown until the comics came out, which others in this thread have already mentioned. King Maric's fate was always unknown and that the only thing known was that he might have died at sea. Nobody knew for sure. Zevran does say he was already in Ferelden to kill someone. Who exactly, Zevran doesn't actually say who his target was. It wasn't the Cousland's - that was Howe's job. That cut scene comes up when you leave Lothering or when you finish the first main quest when the deal with Zevran pops up. Someone like Loghain would have known what a man like Howe was doing. If he wasn't in agreement with Howe, why make him Arl of Denerim? It is not confirmed in every Origin that the Cousland's made it to Ostagar. This is only if you play the Human Noble Origin. There is/was a codex entry saying the fate of the Couslands is unknown if you play a dwarf or an elf, or there used to be before all of these patches. It used to be you picked this up in the Arl of Denermin estate before you head off into the dungeons and find Riordan.

We don't really know if Cailan was unfaithful to Anora. That could go either way. If you talk with Anora before the landsmeet she tells you that Cailan loved her and Arl Eamons also tells you the same thing if you question him about Anora. Anora also tells you that Cailan did know about Alistair. Wouldn't opening up trade with Orlais have been good for Ferelden regardless of feelings after a blight? People are going to be starving with the land blighted. So how is this also not a wise decision by a King to do something for his people who will starve after a blight? King Cailan puts Loghain in his place when he reminds him who is actually King. It's one thing to advice and another to order a King around. Do you understand the concept of fealty? If not look it up and what the duties of a Teyrn actually were which Bryce Cousland and Loghain both were. If Anora is truly barren (which we don't know for sure), then Cailan would have had to set her aside to beget an heir for the Kingdom, the same situation that Alistair will face as King. If so then one of the new Teyrens will become King according the laws of the land, since they are second to the King/Queen. Anora is nothing but a widow and not a true royal. Loghain was raised to Teyrn where the Couslands were born to their title. Thus they had to be removed.

Did you read the book The Stolen Throne before playing Origins? I already stated this information. Loghain is a totally different character in that book and also the book "The Calling." He completely changes in game. Why did he change? We don't have the answers for the 'Why', only speculation. Anora says herself that Cailan loved her. Was this foolish thinking on her part?

Cailan was running around with Duncan and the other Wardens so I'd guess he picked up conversations of Wardens discussing the blight can only be ended with killing an Arch Demon, (Daveth also picks up this information before the joining). Cailan wanted to defeat the blight and prove he was as good a king as his father and the only way to end the blight was to defeat the Arch Demon, helping the Wardens in their task, why is this wrong? How did Anora know that the joining could be fatal?  She gave herself away at the landsmeet that she knew this.  This was information that only Duncan had so one could conclude that Anora, Howe, and Loghain had spies at Ostagar or Howe knew because of his own father which we learn about in Awakenings.

Even Loghain doesn't have the knowledge until you make him a Warden that it takes a Warden to kill an Arch Demon. So even as Regent Loghain refuses the help of other wardens (Orlesian Wardens which Loghain stops at the borders, which Riordan tells you he did), because he is ignorant or arrogant. He never realizes this until you make him a Warden. Loghain goes on and on at the Landsmeet he can defeat the blight just as he defeated Orlais. Loghain wasn't the only one to defeat Orlais, King Maric did his part by killing his countrymen who killed his Mother.

I do know how to use youtube and look up videos on how other decisions pan out in the game, before jumping down someone's throat even if I haven't played it that way and I also have the walkthrough for my own game, plus, the books and comic, so I'm well versed in all outcomes, even if I haven't played them.

Yes you're right I haven't recruited him, geez, I was honest at least; but I have watched the videos and read the discussion about Loghain here on the message boards and also read the books before I ever played Origins. I've followed Origins and it's development when BioWare first announced they were making Origins and when the old BSN boards used to be used, when I played NWN.  I also have characters not uploaded to the boards and I have removed some of my characters from my profile.  Can you say the same thing before being nasty to another players views? Loghain is a very complex character. Loghain also tells the warden if you recruit him, that he would never have killed his own daughter, so who is the real liar and manipulator, geez, that would be Anora. I don't hold to much with a daughter who says her father would kill her. We are only told this by Anora herself. Howe I do believe would have killed her but not on Loghain's order.

Why is it so hard to think Maric could have been kidnapped?  Howe coud have also done this.  I guess you're a player who doesn't think of the what if possibilities. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 06 novembre 2012 - 02:03 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think I remember reading somewhere that yes, we got confirmation Cailan was planning to ditch her.

[StarcloudSWG]

Alistair may be king; but at least in my playthrough, Anora was queen.
Alistair does not rule alone in the playthroughs I've done. That's why he can afford to take a trip away from Ferelden without dragging his entire court along.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 06 novembre 2012 - 04:02 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Yes Hanz, exactly, Loghain saw what he wanted to see over Calian's private documents. Loghain could never get past what the Orlesians did to his family in the Stolen Throne. The Orlesians violated his mother in front of him and his father. Then Loghain's father gives his life for Prince Maric to escape in the book. Loghain also causes Maric angst when he forced Maric to kill his love Katerial. Loghain, also stops his relationship with Queen Rowan because it was best for Ferelden. Personally, I think Loghain was manipulated by Howe and Anora both. When the Warden kills Howe then Anora's whole attitude totally changes and she realizes that she will need the Warden's influence to keep her throne. When the going got ruff she threw her own father under a bus if you cut a deal with her. You also have the choice at this time to tell her Loghain has to pay for his crimes. You as the Warden do have to kill Loghain and not allow Alistair to do it. For me the real power grab was between Howe and Anora. Howe because he felt it was owed to him for his service to King Maric during the war with Orlai and Anora because her husband was dead. One could include Arl Eamon in this as well. I always felt that Arl Eamon and Riordan had a hand in Alistair trying to dump the female human noble warden, or Alistair flat out uses the female noble to gain the throne. The First Warden could have also had something to do with this as well. We don't know much about the First Warden. It's a matter of how a player roleplays the game for each of their characters.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@Riverdalewhiteflash, if you read the codex entries for Cailan's papers all they say is that Cailan was going to open up trade with Empress Celene and she was to visit Ferelden. All Cailan had to do was have Anora examined to fully determine if she was actually barren. For all we know he could have done this. I'm sure a healing mage would have been able to conclude this. If Anora was barren before she married Cailan then that was treason. It was Arl Eamon that was trying to get Cailan to put Anora aside. Arl Eamon also says before the Rescue the Queen quest if you question him, that Anora had Cailan wrapped around her little finger.

[Persephone]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Loghain did object to the Warden and Alistair going to the tower to light the beacon. Loghain already had men stationed at the tower and he mentions it's not necessary for Alistair and the Warden to light the beacon, so King Cailan did over rule him. The guard at the Tower of Ishal tells you this if you talk with him before the battle while you're running around the camp. Loghains' own guard tells you this. He is the guard who is standing at the entrance to the Tower of Ishal and he tells you this tower is closed on Loghain's orders. If you talk with Cailan's guard at his tent, he says King Cailan is holding his own in fighting the darkspawn, and yes during that conversation we are told that Loghain is fighting with Cailan. We are also told it had something to do with what the Queen did (Anora). So to say Cailan was unfaithful to Anora is a matter of how each player chooses to roleplay this if you take Loghain into the dlc RTO.

Are you forgetting the cut scene where Howe introduces Zevran to Loghain to kill the Wardens? Canon wise from the comics...King Maric is/was alive, even though it was unknown until the comics came out, which others in this thread have already mentioned. King Maric's fate was always unknown and that the only thing known was that he might have died at sea. Nobody knew for sure. Zevran does say he was already in Ferelden to kill someone. Who exactly, Zevran doesn't actually say who his target was. It wasn't the Cousland's - that was Howe's job. That cut scene comes up when you leave Lothering or when you finish the first main quest when the deal with Zevran pops up. Someone like Loghain would have known what a man like Howe was doing. If he wasn't in agreement with Howe, why make him Arl of Denerim? It is not confirmed in every Origin that the Cousland's made it to Ostagar. This is only if you play the Human Noble Origin. There is/was a codex entry saying the fate of the Couslands is unknown if you play a dwarf or an elf, or there used to be before all of these patches. It used to be you picked this up in the Arl of Denermin estate before you head off into the dungeons and find Riordan.

We don't really know if Cailan was unfaithful to Anora. That could go either way. If you talk with Anora before the landsmeet she tells you that Cailan loved her and Arl Eamons also tells you the same thing if you question him about Anora. Anora also tells you that Cailan did know about Alistair. Wouldn't opening up trade with Orlais have been good for Ferelden regardless of feelings after a blight? People are going to be starving with the land blighted. So how is this also not a wise decision by a King to do something for his people who will starve after a blight? King Cailan puts Loghain in his place when he reminds him who is actually King. It's one thing to advice and another to order a King around. Do you understand the concept of fealty? If not look it up and what the duties of a Teyrn actually were which Bryce Cousland and Loghain both were. If Anora is truly barren (which we don't know for sure), then Cailan would have had to set her aside to beget an heir for the Kingdom, the same situation that Alistair will face as King. If so then one of the new Teyrens will become King according the laws of the land, since they are second to the King/Queen. Anora is nothing but a widow and not a true royal. Loghain was raised to Teyrn where the Couslands were born to their title. Thus they had to be removed.

Did you read the book The Stolen Throne before playing Origins? I already stated this information. Loghain is a totally different character in that book and also the book "The Calling." He completely changes in game. Why did he change? We don't have the answers for the 'Why', only speculation. Anora says herself that Cailan loved her. Was this foolish thinking on her part?

Cailan was running around with Duncan and the other Wardens so I'd guess he picked up conversations of Wardens discussing the blight can only be ended with killing an Arch Demon, (Daveth also picks up this information before the joining). Cailan wanted to defeat the blight and prove he was as good a king as his father and the only way to end the blight was to defeat the Arch Demon, helping the Wardens in their task, why is this wrong? How did Anora know that the joining could be fatal?  She gave herself away at the landsmeet that she knew this.  This was information that only Duncan had so one could conclude that Anora, Howe, and Loghain had spies at Ostagar or Howe knew because of his own father which we learn about in Awakenings.

Even Loghain doesn't have the knowledge until you make him a Warden that it takes a Warden to kill an Arch Demon. So even as Regent Loghain refuses the help of other wardens (Orlesian Wardens which Loghain stops at the borders, which Riordan tells you he did), because he is ignorant or arrogant. He never realizes this until you make him a Warden. Loghain goes on and on at the Landsmeet he can defeat the blight just as he defeated Orlais. Loghain wasn't the only one to defeat Orlais, King Maric did his part by killing his countrymen who killed his Mother.

I do know how to use youtube and look up videos on how other decisions pan out in the game, before jumping down someone's throat even if I haven't played it that way and I also have the walkthrough for my own game, plus, the books and comic, so I'm well versed in all outcomes, even if I haven't played them.

Yes you're right I haven't recruited him, geez, I was honest at least; but I have watched the videos and read the discussion about Loghain here on the message boards and also read the books before I ever played Origins. I've followed Origins and it's development when BioWare first announced they were making Origins and when the old BSN boards used to be used, when I played NWN.  I also have characters not uploaded to the boards and I have removed some of my characters from my profile.  Can you say the same thing before being nasty to another players views? Loghain is a very complex character. Loghain also tells the warden if you recruit him, that he would never have killed his own daughter, so who is the real liar and manipulator, geez, that would be Anora. I don't hold to much with a daughter who says her father would kill her. We are only told this by Anora herself. Howe I do believe would have killed her but not on Loghain's order.

Why is it so hard to think Maric could have been kidnapped?  Howe coud have also done this.  I guess you're a player who doesn't think of the what if possibilities. 

He doesn't object to it. He merely questions relying on the Grey Wardens so implicitly.

Cailan's guard never says anything about Cailan holding his own against the horde. That is plainly false. Most at camp, including Duncan, "hope for Loghain to make the difference." (Lotsa quotes like that from all over Ostagar. Including one from Alistair!) 


No. It's fact. Anora himself confirmed Cailan to have had adulterous affairs and his plan with Celene is revealed through his correspondence and confirmed by David Gaider. Stop trying to make excuses for him.

Zevran's suicide mission is not attached to King Maric whatsoever.

He did not know.

Why did Howe become Arl of Denerim? By sheer power of arms. He was already Arl of Amaranthine and Teyrn of Highever at the time. Loghain could not afford to fight three wars at the same time, though he clearly despises Howe. Politics are like that. Esp. medieval politics.

We know he betrayed her. Anora says nothing of the kind. Cailan "loved" her the way Henry VIII loved Katharine of Aragon. Eamon speaks of an infatuation, never of actual love.

Trade Agreements weren't what this was about. And ask the Gauls if "opening agreements with the Romans" wouldn't be nice after Caesar killed/enslaved them by the hundreds of thousands. Yes, it's that stupid. Empires swallow up smaller "allies" , turning them into vassals.

No, king Cailan petulantly stomped his foot like the foolish brat he was at that moment. Playing the "I AM THE KING!" card requires zero intelligence, statecraft, wisdom or maturity.

Do you know the concept of cowtowing to incompetent rulers leading to disaster? Nero. Caligula. Henry VIII.

If, if, IF....Lots of maybes and NO proof.

Oh yes, Queen Anora, not even 30 yet, hasn't been a proper baby machine yet. Gee, the lazy good for nothing was just doing her husband's job. Hah, Henry VIII waited until Katharine of Aragon was well into her forties and menopausal before he ditched her for a younger model.

*Groans* The "Birth makes you royal", competence, ability and training be hanged! argument.

Removed:? According to whom? Really, conspiracy theories are fun and all that but GEEZ!

He isn't different whatsoever.

Anora never says Cailan loved her. She mentioned an arranged marriage "becoming something more." And yes, her trusting him, if she ever did, would be royally foolish.

The Joining often being fatal and dangerous is no secret. Many people never being seen again after being recruited by the Wardens makes that a no-brainer. But if you prefer a huge conspiracy to logic, go on ahead.

Except if Loghain had not saved Maric time & time again, he never would have made it that far.

Yes, I can say the same thing. Honestly, even.

I objected to the notion of Loghain selling his best friend and the man he gave up the love of his life to into effin' SLAVERY. Shocker, I'm sure.

I love discussing what ifs to a reasonable extent. The above is neither reasonable nor even slightly in character.

Modifié par Persephone, 06 novembre 2012 - 08:01 .

[The Elder King]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@Riverdalewhiteflash, if you read the codex entries for Cailan's papers all they say is that Cailan was going to open up trade with Empress Celene and she was to visit Ferelden. All Cailan had to do was have Anora examined to fully determine if she was actually barren. For all we know he could have done this. I'm sure a healing mage would have been able to conclude this. If Anora was barren before she married Cailan then that was treason. It was Arl Eamon that was trying to get Cailan to put Anora aside. Arl Eamon also says before the Rescue the Queen quest if you question him, that Anora had Cailan wrapped around her little finger.

What? You're assuming that Anora would know before the marriage that she can't have kids. Which you couldn't know with a magical exam.
About Anora having Cailan wrapped around her little finger, I remember that dialogue was about when both were kids, or young. And Cailan didn't care about the economical situation of the kingdom, and was more than happy to leave it to Anora.

[Persephone]

[quote]ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@Riverdalewhiteflash, if you read the codex entries for Cailan's papers all they say is that Cailan was going to open up trade with Empress Celene and she was to visit Ferelden. All Cailan had to do was have Anora examined to fully determine if she was actually barren. For all we know he could have done this. I'm sure a healing mage would have been able to conclude this. If Anora was barren before she married Cailan then that was treason. It was Arl Eamon that was trying to get Cailan to put Anora aside. Arl Eamon also says before the Rescue the Queen quest if you question him, that Anora had Cailan wrapped around her little finger. [/quote]
[/quote]

Read between the lines? Royal correspondence does not work that way.

WHAT? 

According to WHAT law? Ever considered that Cailan might have been shooting blanks rather than making up laws that REEK of misogyny? 

Yes, Eamon wants Anora gone because he could not manipulate her. His "But her blood isn't blue enough!" argument sickens me.

Eamon himself sickens me, to be honest.

[The Elder King]

Persephone wrote...

Yes, Eamon wants Anora gone because he could not manipulate her. His "But her blood isn't blue enough!" argument sickens me.

Eamon himself sickens me, to be honest.

I wonder what would've been his opinion of Alistair if he knew that half of his blood is elven .
I don't hate Eamon, but his opinion about noble blood are welcomed as much as a kick in the lower parts.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Persephone wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Loghain did object to the Warden and Alistair going to the tower to light the beacon. Loghain already had men stationed at the tower and he mentions it's not necessary for Alistair and the Warden to light the beacon, so King Cailan did over rule him. The guard at the Tower of Ishal tells you this if you talk with him before the battle while you're running around the camp. Loghains' own guard tells you this. He is the guard who is standing at the entrance to the Tower of Ishal and he tells you this tower is closed on Loghain's orders. If you talk with Cailan's guard at his tent, he says King Cailan is holding his own in fighting the darkspawn, and yes during that conversation we are told that Loghain is fighting with Cailan. We are also told it had something to do with what the Queen did (Anora). So to say Cailan was unfaithful to Anora is a matter of how each player chooses to roleplay this if you take Loghain into the dlc RTO.

Are you forgetting the cut scene where Howe introduces Zevran to Loghain to kill the Wardens? Canon wise from the comics...King Maric is/was alive, even though it was unknown until the comics came out, which others in this thread have already mentioned. King Maric's fate was always unknown and that the only thing known was that he might have died at sea. Nobody knew for sure. Zevran does say he was already in Ferelden to kill someone. Who exactly, Zevran doesn't actually say who his target was. It wasn't the Cousland's - that was Howe's job. That cut scene comes up when you leave Lothering or when you finish the first main quest when the deal with Zevran pops up. Someone like Loghain would have known what a man like Howe was doing. If he wasn't in agreement with Howe, why make him Arl of Denerim? It is not confirmed in every Origin that the Cousland's made it to Ostagar. This is only if you play the Human Noble Origin. There is/was a codex entry saying the fate of the Couslands is unknown if you play a dwarf or an elf, or there used to be before all of these patches. It used to be you picked this up in the Arl of Denermin estate before you head off into the dungeons and find Riordan.

We don't really know if Cailan was unfaithful to Anora. That could go either way. If you talk with Anora before the landsmeet she tells you that Cailan loved her and Arl Eamons also tells you the same thing if you question him about Anora. Anora also tells you that Cailan did know about Alistair. Wouldn't opening up trade with Orlais have been good for Ferelden regardless of feelings after a blight? People are going to be starving with the land blighted. So how is this also not a wise decision by a King to do something for his people who will starve after a blight? King Cailan puts Loghain in his place when he reminds him who is actually King. It's one thing to advice and another to order a King around. Do you understand the concept of fealty? If not look it up and what the duties of a Teyrn actually were which Bryce Cousland and Loghain both were. If Anora is truly barren (which we don't know for sure), then Cailan would have had to set her aside to beget an heir for the Kingdom, the same situation that Alistair will face as King. If so then one of the new Teyrens will become King according the laws of the land, since they are second to the King/Queen. Anora is nothing but a widow and not a true royal. Loghain was raised to Teyrn where the Couslands were born to their title. Thus they had to be removed.

Did you read the book The Stolen Throne before playing Origins? I already stated this information. Loghain is a totally different character in that book and also the book "The Calling." He completely changes in game. Why did he change? We don't have the answers for the 'Why', only speculation. Anora says herself that Cailan loved her. Was this foolish thinking on her part?

Cailan was running around with Duncan and the other Wardens so I'd guess he picked up conversations of Wardens discussing the blight can only be ended with killing an Arch Demon, (Daveth also picks up this information before the joining). Cailan wanted to defeat the blight and prove he was as good a king as his father and the only way to end the blight was to defeat the Arch Demon, helping the Wardens in their task, why is this wrong? How did Anora know that the joining could be fatal?  She gave herself away at the landsmeet that she knew this.  This was information that only Duncan had so one could conclude that Anora, Howe, and Loghain had spies at Ostagar or Howe knew because of his own father which we learn about in Awakenings.

Even Loghain doesn't have the knowledge until you make him a Warden that it takes a Warden to kill an Arch Demon. So even as Regent Loghain refuses the help of other wardens (Orlesian Wardens which Loghain stops at the borders, which Riordan tells you he did), because he is ignorant or arrogant. He never realizes this until you make him a Warden. Loghain goes on and on at the Landsmeet he can defeat the blight just as he defeated Orlais. Loghain wasn't the only one to defeat Orlais, King Maric did his part by killing his countrymen who killed his Mother.

I do know how to use youtube and look up videos on how other decisions pan out in the game, before jumping down someone's throat even if I haven't played it that way and I also have the walkthrough for my own game, plus, the books and comic, so I'm well versed in all outcomes, even if I haven't played them.

Yes you're right I haven't recruited him, geez, I was honest at least; but I have watched the videos and read the discussion about Loghain here on the message boards and also read the books before I ever played Origins. I've followed Origins and it's development when BioWare first announced they were making Origins and when the old BSN boards used to be used, when I played NWN.  I also have characters not uploaded to the boards and I have removed some of my characters from my profile.  Can you say the same thing before being nasty to another players views? Loghain is a very complex character. Loghain also tells the warden if you recruit him, that he would never have killed his own daughter, so who is the real liar and manipulator, geez, that would be Anora. I don't hold to much with a daughter who says her father would kill her. We are only told this by Anora herself. Howe I do believe would have killed her but not on Loghain's order.

Why is it so hard to think Maric could have been kidnapped?  Howe coud have also done this.  I guess you're a player who doesn't think of the what if possibilities. 

He doesn't object to it. He merely questions relying on the Grey Wardens so implicitly.

Since Cailan is King, I'm assuming that he knew Loghain already had troops stationed at the tower.  He did overrule Loghain.  Deny this if you will.  Cailan flat out tells Loghain that the Wardens are going to light the beacon and that is that.  I'd say that is an overrule as a Monarch, and he did put Loghain in his place twice at the war council.  If you see it as Cailan stomping his foot so be it.  He was Monarch getting ready for a big battle and it was his call to make.  He did give Loghain the opportunity to offer his opinion and advice.  I'd say that was a fair Monarch affording Loghain the respect as a war hero.  Cailan did listen to him, he just disagreed with him.

Cailan's guard never says anything about Cailan holding his own against the horde. That is plainly false. Most at camp, including Duncan, "hope for Loghain to make the difference." (Lotsa quotes like that from all over Ostagar. Including one from Alistair!)   Cailan, himself tells you they have been holding their own fighting the darkspawn before you and Duncan arrive at camp.  It's the battle Cailan gets killed in that has everyone worried.  

Yes he does say this.  It's Loghain who has the misgivings and Loghain's guard at his own tent is the one who says Cailan is not holding his own.  And the guard with the nurse who says they need to run and not charge the darkspawn that evening.  Don't forget Wynne's dialogue that King Cailan had to keep the morale of the troops up as well.  He had to keep saying it was going good even if it wasn't.  Any good commander does this.  Anyone in the military will tell you this. 


No. It's fact. Anora himself confirmed Cailan to have had adulterous affairs and his plan with Celene is revealed through his correspondence and confirmed by David Gaider. Stop trying to make excuses for him.

If you have a link to this please provide one.  I've never seen or heard Mr. Gaider say this.  I don't spend my life on the boards here.  Nor have I ever heard Anora this in the game.  All I'm saying it that it has not come up in any of mine. 

Zevran's suicide mission is not attached to King Maric whatsoever.

You don't have anymore proof of this than I do.  Zevran does say he was in Ferelden to kill someone else.  It's in his dialogue.  Please keep in mind that they have patched this game since it first came out and it doesn't play like it used too.  I have had this dialougue with Zevran come up.  His target could have been to kill Arl Urian as well.

He did not know.

He does say this. 

Why did Howe become Arl of Denerim? By sheer power of arms. He was already Arl of Amaranthine and Teyrn of Highever at the time. Loghain could not afford to fight three wars at the same time, though he clearly despises Howe. Politics are like that. Esp. medieval politics.

Once again Loghain had to know what Howe was doing.  Let's see taking over Teyrns and Arlings while a blight was raging in the south.  Killing soliders that they needed to fight the blight with.  Everytime you talk with a bartender or Bodhan in camp you hear of another battle that Loghain is fighting with his countrymen.  Do you think every countrymen was going to bow down to Loghain without a Landsmeet deciding.  We never saw an announcement of Anora making her father regent one way or another.  According to the law and history out of the walkthrough a landsmeet had to agree before Loghain was made Regent and if a landsmeet was called we were never told in the game, except Loghain declared himself as regent without a landsmeet, this was against Ferelden law. 

We know he betrayed her. Anora says nothing of the kind. Cailan "loved" her the way Henry VIII loved Katharine of Aragon. Eamon speaks of an infatuation, never of actual love.

The dialouge never came up for me that she says this.   Even my character that married her to Alistair. Never have I heard this dialogue.

Trade Agreements weren't what this was about. And ask the Gauls if "opening agreements with the Romans" wouldn't be nice after Caesar killed/enslaved them by the hundreds of thousands. Yes, it's that stupid. Empires swallow up smaller "allies" , turning them into vassals.

No, king Cailan petulantly stomped his foot like the foolish brat he was at that moment. Playing the "I AM THE KING!" card requires zero intelligence, statecraft, wisdom or maturity.

Do you know the concept of cotowing to incompetent rulers leading to disaster? Nero. Caligula. Henry VIII.

If, if, IF....Lots of maybes and NO proof.

Oh yes, Queen Anora, not even 30 yet, hasn't been a proper baby machine yet. Gee, the lazy good for nothing was just doing her husband's job. Hah, Henry VIII waited until Katharine of Aragon was well into her forties and menopausal before he ditched her for a younger model.

*Groans* The "Birth makes you royal", competence, ability and training be hanged! argument.

This was the situation in Ferelden regardless and if you read the history and codexes and about the different classes in the game and the guilds this is the way it works.  I guess healing mages like Wynne, A Mage Warden, or Anders is of no account to determine if Anora was barren, the issue could have been solved.   I just read on another thread that Cailan and Anora were just unlucky in not having children, by Mr. Gaider himself.  So they were doing the deed.  Once again, I never had the dialogue come up where Anora tells you Cailan didn't love her.

Removed:? According to whom? Really, conspiracy theories are fun and all that but GEEZ!
Howe was making a power play and Loghain/Anora allowed him to do this.  Read the information in the wiki and in the codexes on the Teyrns.  Their responsibilities.
He isn't different whatsoever.

Who are you talking about here?

Anora never says Cailan loved her. She mentioned an arranged marriage "becoming something more." And yes, her trusting him, if she ever did, would be royally foolish.

I guess you never talked with Eamon about Anora then when you receive the quest to rescue Anora.  He tells you flat out that Cailan loved her was crazy about her.  If Anora told Cailan to jump according to Arl Eamon, Cailan would have asked how high.  I've never had the dialogue come up that states the Cailan didn't love her.  If you can post a link to this dialogue that will be fine or a codex entry I'd appreciate it.

The Joining often being fatal and dangerous is no secret. Many people never being seen again after being recruited by the Wardens makes that a no-brainer. But if you prefer a huge conspiracy to logic, go on ahead.

Once again, it was secret and Duncan was the only one who knew.  Duncan wouldn't even tell you about the joining until just before.  Jory dug his heels in and was going to run because of drinking the blood and this is why Duncan killed him.  So this information wouldn't get out. 

Except if Loghain had not saved Maric time & time again, he never would have made it that far.

Towards the end of the Calling King Maric is a hardened ruler.  So he didn't fully need Loghain.  He rewarded Loghain by raising him to a Teyrn.  Flemeth warned Maric, that Loghain would betray him and he did by allowing Cailan to die.  Maric doesn't even take Loghain with him when he kills the men who killed his mother in the books.  Maric did that all on his own, without Loghain....surprise, Loghain didn't do something, Maker forbid!  It's Loghain that has a high opinion of himself.  He is the only one who can defend Ferelden in his own mind.  Yet there was another Teyrn besides him, oh yes Bryce Cousland.  If it was Loghain making a power grab then Bryce Cousland had to be taken out of the picture which is what happened.  Bryce Cousland's own dialogues suggests that he would have done his duty and protected Cailan on the field, which Loghain didn't do.  Once again you didn't answer the question I asked you on the oaths of fealty.  That means when Loghain bent his knee and accepted Gwaren, he was to defend the Monarch at all cost even his own life.  If you accept the boon at the end of the game and become the Teyrn of Gwaren, then you are to defend Alistair/Anora with your life.  You will also have to do this being the Arl/Arlessa of Amaranthine.  Grey Warden or no.

Yes, I can say the same thing. Honestly, even.

I objected to the notion of Loghain selling his best friend and the man he gave up the love of his life to into effin' SLAVERY. Shocker, I'm sure.

Please take note, I also said that Howe could have also done this.  It was done off screen so we're not exactly sure are we, until Mr. Gaider decides we need to know this information if we ever do.  Maric if I understand correctly was to be on his way home to Ferelden.  I hope the comics shed some light on this and Alistair acutally finds Maric.   

It would have been up to Maric about Howe's reward for helping defend Ferelden against the Orlesians, and Howe didn't seem happy with his lot so he goes and kills Bryce Cousland and Arl Urian (possibly, Zevran's real target....maybe).  We are told in the game that Arl Urian might have been murdered before Ostagar even happened.  We do know that Maric left the kingdom by whatever means and he never returned so we do know this much.  The rest is in shadow.  Howe was mixed up with The Crows and Blood Mages as well.  Once again we only have Loghain's word that he looked for Maric, once again, this doesn't mean that he did.  You have to take Loghain at his word.  His word doesn't mean to much to me when he told Cailan to his face, along with: Uldred, The Grand Cleric, Duncan, and The Warden (are all witness to this at the war council), that he'd flank the darkspawn and then he ran.  In the old days if a soldier deserted they used to hang your behind.  I believe today if you do it, you get kicked out of the military, in the US with a dishonorable discharge.  Try finding a job if you pull that crap!

I love discussing what ifs to a reasonable extent. The above is neither reasonable nor even slightly in character.

It's in character for Loghain, Howe, or Anora, if they were making a powerplay.  Flemeth isn't trustful of Loghain either and she says he doesn't see the real danger to Ferelden which is the Arch demon.  Flemeth says right out that Loghain doesn't get it and his heart holds evil secrets. 

[David Gaider]

And we're once again no longer talking about DA3. Shutting this down.