673 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

David Gaider wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
That completely changes your point. If your original assumption is that you are making all these decisions with no input from anyone with any knowledge, then you can't disregard that Riordan is that knowledge. Therefore, your decision is not selfish, regardless of how you feel about Alistair. Your decision is based on what a senior Warden is telling you is the best course of action.

And you picked him over the man you said you loved, and who trusted you. And that doesn't constitute a betrayal on your part whatsoever. Yes, got it.

Oh no, it's a betrayal. It's just that it doesn't have to be done for selfish reasons.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 27 octobre 2012 - 08:39 .

[Nashimura]

David Gaider wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
That completely changes your point. If your original assumption is that you are making all these decisions with no input from anyone with any knowledge, then you can't disregard that Riordan is that knowledge. Therefore, your decision is not selfish, regardless of how you feel about Alistair. Your decision is based on what a senior Warden is telling you is the best course of action.

And you picked him over the man you said you loved, and who trusted you. And that doesn't constitute a betrayal on your part whatsoever. Yes, got it.

His actions made me see he wasnt the man i thought he was, or someone who could be king. At that point it did not feel like a betrayal to me. 

[Teddie Sage]

Exactly, not everyone here plays the game to romance Alistair. Some are friends with him and still think that sparring Loghain to make him a Warden is the right thing to do.

[Scott Sion]

Woops

Modifié par plnero, 27 octobre 2012 - 08:43 .

[Monica21]

David Gaider wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
That completely changes your point. If your original assumption is that you are making all these decisions with no input from anyone with any knowledge, then you can't disregard that Riordan is that knowledge. Therefore, your decision is not selfish, regardless of how you feel about Alistair. Your decision is based on what a senior Warden is telling you is the best course of action.

And you picked him over the man you said you loved, and who trusted you. And that doesn't constitute a betrayal on your part whatsoever. Yes, got it.

I never said I loved him. If I romance him I never have to choose that dialogue. I don't even have to romance him. At the least, the game you gave me gave me the option to have an uneasy partnership. At most, yes, it's a full-blown love affair.

So, I don't do what Alistair wants and I'm the selfish one, and if Alistair doesn't do what I want (you know, trying to save Ferelden and all) then he's just the poor sod who got mixed up with me. You've done a great job reducing two excellent characters to one-note hero and villian status when that's not how either of them were presented.

[Maria Caliban]

Yeah, the Warden can force Alistar to become king (which he doesn't want), force him to marry Anora (which he doesn't want), and force him to have sex with Morrigan (which he doesn't want).

These are all rather unnice things to do to your friend. There's one thing which Alistiar won't lay down for, and people still call him selfish, stupid, and suggest he's betrayed them.

I don't agree with Alistair leaving the Wardens, but I get why he does what he does.

[aries1001]

I can agree somewhat that Alistair feels betrayed when the Warden accepts Loghain into the Order of the Grey Wardens. And for this reason - and this alone - decides to leave. And then regrets it - perhaps almost immediately?

I can also somewhat agree that many of the Wardens actions, he or she takes because she or he is being selfish, or arrogant and thte the Wardens does what he has to do in order to save the world from the darkspawn.

However, many of us (I did) played a character who didn't want to be in the Grey Wardens. I played a Dalish Elf myself, (in DA:O) and Duncan had to drag me kicking and screaming (almost literally) into the Grey Wardens. What did I care about these problems that these shemlens (humans) were having. However, when I learned what the threat was, and that the threat also included the Dalish, I did my duty. Sometimes my actions were selfish, other times they were not.(In the game, I mean).

As for Loghain, why is there not a chance to banish him from the lands? There seems only to be two options, to let him live e.g. to become a Grey Warden, or to kill him. (or have Alistair kill him).
And while it is true that some players made the decision on their own that Loghain should join the Wardens, not all us made the decision freely. (to become a Grey Warden that is).

[Persephone]

David Gaider wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
That completely changes your point. If your original assumption is that you are making all these decisions with no input from anyone with any knowledge, then you can't disregard that Riordan is that knowledge. Therefore, your decision is not selfish, regardless of how you feel about Alistair. Your decision is based on what a senior Warden is telling you is the best course of action.

And you picked him over the man you said you loved, and who trusted you. And that doesn't constitute a betrayal on your part whatsoever. Yes, got it.

It may be seen as such but, David, no friend or lover of mine could ever guilt me into killing someone. Doesn't that make a modicum of sense?

[Scott Sion]

Masha Potato wrote...

plnero wrote...

On a serious note I can't bring myself to let Logain live. I did the Human Noble origin first so the way I look at it, it would be like having Alistar trying to convince me not to kill Arl Howe. Arl Howe killed my mother and father and there's no way I'm letting him live after that, good reason or not. Duncan was Alistars father figure; how am I supposed to tell him to let it go when I couldn't let what Howe did go? 

There's nothing to gain by letting Howe live though. If Riordan popped up with a bottle of darkspawn blood and offered to make him a wardie it would be absolutely different

No, but even if there was something to gain I still would have killed him. I almost knew how Alistar felt and knowing that I couldn't bring myself to let Logain live. I entered his estate determined to kill him no matter what and nothing was going to stand in my way.

Modifié par plnero, 27 octobre 2012 - 08:44 .

[Nashimura]

Instead of leaving the wardens it would of be good if a hardened Alistair straight challenged you to single combat if you were not romancing him. Two duels in one day....

[Monica21]

Great post, Persephone.

aries1001 wrote...

I can agree somewhat that Alistair feels betrayed when the Warden accepts Loghain into the Order of the Grey Wardens. And for this reason - and this alone - decides to leave. And then regrets it - perhaps almost immediately?

I can also somewhat agree that many of the Wardens actions, he or she takes because she or he is being selfish, or arrogant and thte the Wardens does what he has to do in order to save the world from the darkspawn.

However, many of us (I did) played a character who didn't want to be in the Grey Wardens. I played a Dalish Elf myself, (in DA:O) and Duncan had to drag me kicking and screaming (almost literally) into the Grey Wardens. What did I care about these problems that these shemlens (humans) were having. However, when I learned what the threat was, and that the threat also included the Dalish, I did my duty. Sometimes my actions were selfish, other times they were not.(In the game, I mean).

As for Loghain, why is there not a chance to banish him from the lands? There seems only to be two options, to let him live e.g. to become a Grey Warden, or to kill him. (or have Alistair kill him).
And while it is true that some players made the decision on their own that Loghain should join the Wardens, not all us made the decision freely. (to become a Grey Warden that is).

I completely agree that Alistair feels betrayal, but I do not think that means he is betrayed. I don't think that's what you were saying, but I wanted to clarify, just in case I wasn't being clear.

[Scott Sion]

Nashimura wrote...

Instead of leaving the wardens it would of be good if a hardened Alistair straight challenged you to single combat if you were not romancing him. Two duels in one day....

Awww, I would have done that on my non-canon Warden. I'd most likely have only done it once but it wouldn't have been kind of interesting.

[Monica21]

plnero wrote...
On a serious note I can't bring myself to let Logain live. I did the Human Noble origin first so the way I look at it, it would be like having Alistar trying to convince me not to kill Arl Howe. Arl Howe killed my mother and father and there's no way I'm letting him live after that, good reason or not. Duncan was Alistars father figure; how am I supposed to tell him to let it go when I couldn't let what Howe did go?

I've stated before that I would let Howe live if it were he in Loghain's place. If a Warden says, hey, we should really think about recruiting him, then I'd do it.

[Fiacre]

David Gaider wrote...

So, you disagree. Alistair refuses to let it end with that, and you override him-- it's going to be what you think and his feelings are irrelevant. Is his response selfish? Even childish? That can be argued, sure, but if you believe your own actions aren't also selfish then I think you're deluding yourself. You made that determination all on your own-- you. Ignoring the wishes of the only other Grey Warden in the room, a man who is supposedly not only your friend and equal but also a man who loves you and trusts you... and assumed you trusted him. Who assumed you felt as he did, and that you agreed with him back when he said "Loghain has to die for what he's done". You may still believe you were right-- the story is written to allow you to think that, and has no clear-cut way out where everybody is made happy-- but believing you were the only arbiter to decide that is indeed selfish of you.

Then what about a Warden that never got along with Alistair? One who was either neutral or even hostile with him? Who may have even made it clear that he disliked/hated Duncan? And why would Alistair assume you agree with him if you suggested siding with Loghain when Eamone first brought up the Landsmeet and where only convinced not do so by the argument that Loghain wants you dead?

Really, half the time the Landsmeet happens I feel the urge to explain to Alistair that no, we don't agree on this matter, we never did, I thought this was ample clear. And no, we are not friends, we never were and I have no idea why you seem to suddenly treat this as if you were betrayed by a friend instead of that one guy you don't like and who doesn't like you either. And, depending on the character, add a part of this: Why exactly are you starting to talk about Duncan now as if that is supposed to convince me of anything? I've never liked him and if the Darkspawn hadn't killed him, I'd probably have done that myself by now. In fact, that I didn't get to do so is quite regrettable indeed. ...Alistair, you do realize that I don't care if you want to leave? Just do it, good riddance? ...Wait, why do you think I have any inclination to save you? I really don't care.

...Which, certainly, does nothing to argue against the assertion that letting Loghain live is always selfish (which I don't think it is, because of Riordan), and isn't the case for all my Warden's, but there's probably one thing in there for every Warden I've had (though I don't think the whole rant goes for any of them. My Amell gets the closest, but he actually liked Duncan).

Modifié par Fiacre, 27 octobre 2012 - 08:51 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Monica21 wrote...

plnero wrote...
On a serious note I can't bring myself to let Logain live. I did the Human Noble origin first so the way I look at it, it would be like having Alistar trying to convince me not to kill Arl Howe. Arl Howe killed my mother and father and there's no way I'm letting him live after that, good reason or not. Duncan was Alistars father figure; how am I supposed to tell him to let it go when I couldn't let what Howe did go?

I've stated before that I would let Howe live if it were he in Loghain's place. If a Warden says, hey, we should really think about recruiting him, then I'd do it.

It doesn't matter if your reasons for doing so are selfish or selfless, if you put Howe in a position where there is any chance he can put stuff in your food or realize your back is to him, you deserve what you get. Especially if you're a human noble, who by an odd coincidence has the strongest selfish reasons to kill him.

(One might argue that the same is true of Nathaniel, except that it eventually transpires he has no intention of taking advantage of these oppurtunities.)

Edit: (And of course I already admitted such a thing about Loghain.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 27 octobre 2012 - 09:00 .

[The Elder King]

Wulfram wrote...

Dear Alistair,

Please tell me that you want someone dead before I accept thier surrender. It looks kind of bad if we do things the other way around

sincerely,
The Warden

You expected Alistair to accept Loghain's surrender? Regardless if right or wrong, he made pretty clear what was his opinion about  Loghain and what should've been his fate.
About Loghain, I saved and killed him in different playthroughs. With my Cousland, I killed him, for example, for different reasons. First off, my Cousland would've been an hypocrite on condamning Alistair for wanting revenge on Loghain. Even if we'd have the choice of spare him or making him join the Wardens (and even if Riordan would've said to him that it'd have been better to have one more Warden), my Cousland would have killed Howe regardles. Every single time, without a bit of esitation. He understands Alistair about wanting revenge on Loghain.
Plus, he believes that Loghain was involved in his family's assassination. Bryce and Eamon were the only men who could've face Loghain in the Landsmeet, and both of them suffered an assassination's plan. Loghain and Howe might have planned that before  Ostagar(probably, considering the distance between Redcliffe and Lothering, the ser Donall, the knight in Lothering, couldn't have travelled that distance between the battle of Ostagar and the arrive of the Warden in Lothering, and another knight arrived even earlier in Lothering. Eamon was probably poisoned before the battle, or during that days). This is all speculation, of course, but since we don't know how and when the alliance between Loghain and Howe was formed, everything could be legit.
Considering that he believed (right or wrong) that Loghain was involved, he'd never spare him.

Modifié par hhh89, 27 octobre 2012 - 08:50 .

[Mary Kirby]

Persephone wrote...

It may be seen as such but, David, no friend or lover of mine could ever guilt me into killing someone. Doesn't that make a modicum of sense?

How many people did you kill just getting to the Landsmeet?

[Nashimura]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Persephone wrote...

It may be seen as such but, David, no friend or lover of mine could ever guilt me into killing someone. Doesn't that make a modicum of sense?

How many people did you kill just getting to the Landsmeet?

How many had a chance of becoming a warden at the time and were as capable as Loghain? How many surrendered?

Modifié par Nashimura, 27 octobre 2012 - 08:53 .

[Wulfram]

hhh89 wrote...

You expected Alistair to accept Loghain's surrender? Regardless if right or wrong, he made pretty clear what was his opinion about  Loghain and what should've been his fate.

Not really, he's not actually very vocal about Loghain that I can recall, and he never objected to my Warden's other references to coming to a deal with him.

I wouldn't necessary expect him to approve, but there wasn't much indication that this was something he'd walk on.

[The Elder King]

Monica21 wrote...

plnero wrote...
On a serious note I can't bring myself to let Logain live. I did the Human Noble origin first so the way I look at it, it would be like having Alistar trying to convince me not to kill Arl Howe. Arl Howe killed my mother and father and there's no way I'm letting him live after that, good reason or not. Duncan was Alistars father figure; how am I supposed to tell him to let it go when I couldn't let what Howe did go?

I've stated before that I would let Howe live if it were he in Loghain's place. If a Warden says, hey, we should really think about recruiting him, then I'd do it.

My Cousland wouldn't care. If Riordan really wanted to make me spare the man who killed my family, he should be less cripting about the reason.

[Persephone]

Monica21 wrote...

plnero wrote...
On a serious note I can't bring myself to let Logain live. I did the Human Noble origin first so the way I look at it, it would be like having Alistar trying to convince me not to kill Arl Howe. Arl Howe killed my mother and father and there's no way I'm letting him live after that, good reason or not. Duncan was Alistars father figure; how am I supposed to tell him to let it go when I couldn't let what Howe did go?

I've stated before that I would let Howe live if it were he in Loghain's place. If a Warden says, hey, we should really think about recruiting him, then I'd do it.

There's that. Plus, my Canon Warden does not believe in vengeance.

Two quotes as food for thought:

“Revenge is barren of itself: it is the dreadful food it feeds on; its delight is murder, and its end is despair.”
Friedrich von Schiller

"If one man in all the world can be found, now or forever, to know that
you did wrong, that man will have either to conquer the world as I have,
or be crucified by it. [The uproar in the streets again reaches them].
Do you hear? These knockers at your gate are also believers in
vengeance and in stabbing. You have slain their leader: it is right that
they shall slay you. If you doubt it, ask your four counsellors here.
And then in the name of that right [he emphasizes the word with great scorn]
shall I not slay them for murdering their Queen, and be slain in my
turn by their countrymen as the invader of their fatherland? Can Rome do
less then than slay these slayers, too, to shew the world how Rome
avenges her sons and her honor. And so, to the end of history, murder
shall breed murder, always in the name of right and honor and peace,
until the gods are tired of blood and create a race that can understand.
[Fierce uproar. Cleopatra becomes white with terror]. Hearken,
you who must not be insulted. Go near enough to catch their words: you
will find them bitterer than the tongue of Pothinus. [Loftily, wrapping himself up in an impenetrable dignity] Let the Queen of Egypt now give her orders for vengeance, and take her measures for defence; for she has renounced Caesar. " (George B. Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra)

[Persephone]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Persephone wrote...

It may be seen as such but, David, no friend or lover of mine could ever guilt me into killing someone. Doesn't that make a modicum of sense?

How many people did you kill just getting to the Landsmeet?

None of which lost their lives to appease a friend or lover of mine. My Canon Warden saved whomever she could save and only resorted to violence if she was attacked first.

[Monica21]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Persephone wrote...

It may be seen as such but, David, no friend or lover of mine could ever guilt me into killing someone. Doesn't that make a modicum of sense?

How many people did you kill just getting to the Landsmeet?

How many people does Alistair try to guilt me into killing? How many people do I kill out of self-preservation? Nobody's saying the Warden is a pacifist, but there is a distinct difference between killing people because they are trying to kill you, and killing a man who's on his knees and has just surrendered.

[ShaggyWolf]

I think David's suggestion that the Warden is selfish in this situation isn't without warrant. Sparing Loghain is a justifiable action. It serves a logical purpose, and the common good. But Alistair wants him dead, and you, the PC, know it. But you still put your goals first. Alistair thinks Loghain should die, no matter what. Even if your goals are arguably more noble, you still place your judgement before his, and assert that his use to your goal (defeating the blight) is more important than Alistair's desire: bringing Loghain to justice for killing the people that Alistair basically considered to be his family.

[The Elder King]

Wulfram wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

You expected Alistair to accept Loghain's surrender? Regardless if right or wrong, he made pretty clear what was his opinion about  Loghain and what should've been his fate.

Not really, he's not actually very vocal about Loghain that I can recall, and he never objected to my Warden's other references to coming to a deal with him.

I wouldn't necessary expect him to approve, but there wasn't much indication that this was something he'd walk on.

I didn't know about the fact that Alistair would've left the party, but after I killed Loghain and saved and restarted the Landsmeet to see what would happen if I spare him. I didn't expect Alistair to leave Ferelden, but I was expecting the fact that he'd have left the party. I always thought during the game that he would've kill Loghain, and that he wouldn't have accepted any other outcome.