40 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyinElk212]

See what I did there w/ the title??

One thing that really bothered me about Dragon Age 2 was how little the romances had to do with......well, anything else in Dragon Age 2. They were in essence their own little side stories that carried no weight to the actual characters or story. You'd have your 3 or 4 scenes with your love interest, and that'd be it. A few references to it via party chatter, and we're done. 

Now to be fair, ALL Bioware games make sure their romances do not influence the plot and characters too greatly. Bioware wants to minimize variability and give themselves the ability to convey a gripping, concise story experience. That being said, let's take a look at previous romances and compare them to Dragon Age 2's romances:

In Mass Effect, we could romance Ashley, a character who starts off with little to no trust in alien life. Through a romance, you could encourage this mindset or establish an increase in alien trust, influencing future situations and conversations you'd have with Ashley. At one point in Mass Effect, there comes a decision where you can only save Ashley's life at the expense of someone else; if you save her she afterwards questions whether or not you saved her due to feelings you had for her, as opposed to whatever the actual smart choice in the mission was. Ashley's romance was correctly implemented into Mass Effect because the romance effectively changes the character's mindset and personality and heavily influences important decisions.

In Dragon Age: Origins, we could romance Alistair, which had HUGE implications to the plot and said character. Depending on what the player did, Alistair could become joking, jovial king and have you as his queen or side-maiden, or he could become a more serious character who sacrifices himself to save you from killing the Archdemon out of love for you. Again, the romance was NOT divorced from Alistair because it changes him as a character depending on how the player handles it, and the romance was NOT divorced from the plot because it influences what happens in the story.

Now jump to Dragon Age 2: no matter if you romance him or not, Anders remains the same character. He does not back down from destroying the chantry and does not change his overly aggressive negative attitude towards Templars one bit. Fenris also remains the same character, with his open bitterness to mages not dying down even if YOU'RE a mage. Same situation with Merrill, even if you tell her the mirror's Bad News Bears, she won't refrain from using it.

The romances do not influence these character at all, or the plotpoints in the game. The characters are destined down the same path every time. They do not effect the decision-making process of the players as well, minus whether or not you kill Anders, I guess. Other than Isabela, the romances in Dragon Age 2 are severely divorced from the plot and the characters.

What do you guys think?

[DarkKnightHolmes]

You're right. Romance should end with the companion ending up dead........ at least that's what I want.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Hmm, I'd say this idea is good in theory but carries perils.

There are already plenty of complaints about romances being too prominent in BioWare's games, and with good reason considering the amount of discussion, fan fiction, fan art, and advocacy that goes into them. Romances are an optional feature. They should remain that way. The more heavily a romance is integrated into the plot, and vice versa, the more you run the risk of romances appearing "mandatory" or "forced" even if they're not.

I'd say Ash, Alistair, and Morrigan are good examples of how to have romance and plot interact without it getting too heavy-handed. Liara in ME3 is IMO an example of a potential pitfall of tying the two closely--Liara's dialogue varied little from romance to friendship, giving the impression that she was "supposed" to be romanced. No one's happy with that situation--people who romanced Liara didn't get as much unique content, and people who didn't felt like the romance was being pushed when it didn't need to be.

[silentassassin264]

Using DA2 probably isn't a good example. Nothing you did in that game matters.

[upsettingshorts]

This is one of those posts where I have to question whether or not I played the same games as the OP.

[TheJediSaint]

Though I like romances, I think they should be optional content. As such, it's hard to tie them too closely to the main plot, as you don't want people who don't pursue romance to feel left out.

In my mind, a romance should be a interesting subplot that runs parallel to the main story without really affecting it.

[esper]

I am sorry, but romanicing someone does not automatically meant that they should do what you the player want.

In da:o Zevran, who I romanced, felt like he had no bearing on the plot past his failed assaniation attempt, and Leliana first became important past the da:o. You just happened to be lucky and get the Li who fitted to the main plot in da:o. In da2 the two Li's who are not involved in the main plot directly (Fenris and Merill) at least fitted tematically.

In da:o you said one line to chance the two do-gooders, I always felt that it was fake with Alistair, but I buy it now with Leliana do to who she has revealed herself to be. Friendship/rivalary had a huge effect on how the companion view you first and them self a little, as it should be. You could get Isabella to come back and to be a 'better' (better due to you Hawke's moral, not objectively) person, Merill to smash the mirror and Anders to believe he is a monster (for a lack on better word) on rivalry, Fenris... I never fully friendshipped so I can't compare the two routes there.

[Rune-Chan]

You are correct, but the same is true for most factors in Dragon Age 2, not just romances.

Playing an apostate blood mage does not bother the Templars enough to do anything about it, despite their extremely aggressive stance against even the most peaceful and tame mages.

[CuriousArtemis]

I do very much agree with you OP since the romance is an integral part of the game for me. However, unfortunately, I do believe the writers, possibly DG himself (and I do apologize if I am misquoting or misattributing here) said that Alistair's romance's influence on the plot was considered undesirable, and that they would prefer romances that had less influence over the plot.

[TheJediSaint]

Machines Are Us wrote...

You are correct, but the same is true for most factors in Dragon Age 2, not just romances.

Playing an apostate blood mage does not bother the Templars enough to do anything about it, despite their extremely aggressive stance against even the most peaceful and tame mages.

Well I would hope that they better intergrate class choice into the plot.   Possibly by having sidequest lines only accessable to certain class/specalizations.   Of course, I would also like certain specalizations to be mutually exclusive.  But that's off-topic.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 26 octobre 2012 - 08:06 .

[Maria Caliban]

It wasn't my magical sexing that brought Isabela back to Kirkwall with the Qunari Book?

[labargegrrrl]

i'd like a mix of romances that have high or low plot integration.

one of the most moving things i ever experienced as a player was when al refused to let one of my wardens die b/c he was in luv w/her and all that. and even tho the andersmances didn't influence HIS ultimate endgame choices, it made the choice about whether to murderknife him just a touch more significant. so i wouldn't say his romance was completely divorced from plot.

but at the same time, i fell in love with the fact that merril seemed to have the most normal, healthy romance in the entire series. after having gone through every nut-job romance in the series prior to her, i was honestly very relieved to have at least one romance that was COMPLETELY independent of all the rest of the craziness going on.

i find both types of romances have their merits, so i think both should be included.

[esper]

labargegrrrl wrote...

i'd like a mix of romances that have high or low plot integration.

one of the most moving things i ever experienced as a player was when al refused to let one of my wardens die b/c he was in luv w/her and all that. and even tho the andersmances didn't influence HIS ultimate endgame choices, it made the choice about whether to murderknife him just a touch more significant. so i wouldn't say his romance was completely divorced from plot.

but at the same time, i fell in love with the fact that merril seemed to have the most normal, healthy romance in the entire series. after having gone through every nut-job romance in the series prior to her, i was honestly very relieved to have at least one romance that was COMPLETELY independent of all the rest of the craziness going on.

i find both types of romances have their merits, so i think both should be included.

Merill wasn't indepenent, she was a tematic parallel, and thus fittered quite nicely in. Unlike Zevran, who, just had an introduction and a eventual betrayal that no one commented on.

She is very grounded though, and nice. I was certianly glad to have her on the team. Also she watered my plants.

[draken-heart]

they should be their own optional side story that players can choose to experience if they want.

That said, if you try to tell me that bioware is setting a canon warden that has no romance, I will Flame this entire Forum with incoherent rage posts.

[anillee]

I agree with the OP. I even mentioned this on a thread about what we want to see out of party members in DA3.

[Terrorize69]

Would be nice if you had a LI they integrated with the plot more, where-as if you didn't have a LI, the companion you got on best with would be your "right hand".

Every main char needs a "right hand". Would be nice if your LI would fill that role.

[labargegrrrl]

esper wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

i'd like a mix of romances that have high or low plot integration.

one of the most moving things i ever experienced as a player was when al refused to let one of my wardens die b/c he was in luv w/her and all that. and even tho the andersmances didn't influence HIS ultimate endgame choices, it made the choice about whether to murderknife him just a touch more significant. so i wouldn't say his romance was completely divorced from plot.

but at the same time, i fell in love with the fact that merril seemed to have the most normal, healthy romance in the entire series. after having gone through every nut-job romance in the series prior to her, i was honestly very relieved to have at least one romance that was COMPLETELY independent of all the rest of the craziness going on.

i find both types of romances have their merits, so i think both should be included.

Merill wasn't indepenent, she was a tematic parallel, and thus fittered quite nicely in. Unlike Zevran, who, just had an introduction and a eventual betrayal that no one commented on.

She is very grounded though, and nice. I was certianly glad to have her on the team. Also she watered my plants.

well, i don't meen independent quite that way.  i meen that her romance itself isn't directly woven into the major plots, and that even her character-driven behaviors and quests never seem to be as woven into her romance.  the sort of partner that leaves work at work, and has clear boundaries between her professional and personal life.

all the other romances seemed to be woven into the main plot somehow, or to be complicated by their particular character quests/goals.  and while it's not possible for the character romances to be completely divorced from everything else, merril's came closer than anyone else's, imho.

(and yes, i LOVED that she watered the houseplants.  i'm pretty sure all my non-merril mancing hawkes ended up with sad, dead, brown things that only got thrown out.)

also, when you're talking about zev...  are you using the term betrayal b/c he turned on you in denerim, or b/c he eventually stops sleaping with the warden due to his issues, or what?  i don't feel like i understand what you meen by that statement.

[Ser Fish]

I wouldn't mind romances that are influenced BY the main plot -- as in, show that events of the world have meaning to the characters and have them react to those events -- but their influence ON the main plot should be minimal. I did like that Alistair's romance was connected with the plot, but I would argue that having a romance that can alter the plot, whether in small ways or big ones, is a bad idea. Romances should be separate and largely self contained.

[esper]

labargegrrrl wrote...

esper wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

i'd like a mix of romances that have high or low plot integration.

one of the most moving things i ever experienced as a player was when al refused to let one of my wardens die b/c he was in luv w/her and all that. and even tho the andersmances didn't influence HIS ultimate endgame choices, it made the choice about whether to murderknife him just a touch more significant. so i wouldn't say his romance was completely divorced from plot.

but at the same time, i fell in love with the fact that merril seemed to have the most normal, healthy romance in the entire series. after having gone through every nut-job romance in the series prior to her, i was honestly very relieved to have at least one romance that was COMPLETELY independent of all the rest of the craziness going on.

i find both types of romances have their merits, so i think both should be included.

Merill wasn't indepenent, she was a tematic parallel, and thus fittered quite nicely in. Unlike Zevran, who, just had an introduction and a eventual betrayal that no one commented on.

She is very grounded though, and nice. I was certianly glad to have her on the team. Also she watered my plants.

well, i don't meen independent quite that way.  i meen that her romance itself isn't directly woven into the major plots, and that even her character-driven behaviors and quests never seem to be as woven into her romance.  the sort of partner that leaves work at work, and has clear boundaries between her professional and personal life.

all the other romances seemed to be woven into the main plot somehow, or to be complicated by their particular character quests/goals.  and while it's not possible for the character romances to be completely divorced from everything else, merril's came closer than anyone else's, imho.

(and yes, i LOVED that she watered the houseplants.  i'm pretty sure all my non-merril mancing hawkes ended up with sad, dead, brown things that only got thrown out.)

also, when you're talking about zev...  are you using the term betrayal b/c he turned on you in denerim, or b/c he eventually stops sleaping with the warden due to his issues, or what?  i don't feel like i understand what you meen by that statement.

Merril and Fenris are the same story mechanism. They don't really have any say in major main plot points after they are introduced. Fenris doesn't even have a major plot point in his introduction, but tematically the do reflect the conflicts. (Fenris - anti mage). Merrill (Blood mage, and freedom vs. security). So they feel naturall enough, as long as you drag them around a bit an have them banter.

(And no worries, she also waters non-li'ed Hawkes plotted plants. I think you just have to be friendship)

The perhaps betrayal in Denerim. It is an interaction with the main plot line, because I do think the crows attacks no matter what. But the second crow attack are so little reacted to by the game and companions that it feels like it is only there to give Zevran a chance to betray you and thus for me feels detacted from the main story. The other issue belongs completely to his own story line (And how does no sex even equal betrayal in any way:?).

And don't even get me started on Leliana who first becomes important after the game in which she was a Li.

Modifié par esper, 26 octobre 2012 - 09:58 .

[wright1978]

I adore the Isabela romance in DA2 and felt it was handled very well. I certainly felt she as a chracter retained her Isableaness but also reflected the romance well. The only issue i had with the romances is that i don't think they didn't fit the supposed 10 year timeframe very well.

I

[labargegrrrl]

esper wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

esper wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

i'd like a mix of romances that have high or low plot integration.

one of the most moving things i ever experienced as a player was when al refused to let one of my wardens die b/c he was in luv w/her and all that. and even tho the andersmances didn't influence HIS ultimate endgame choices, it made the choice about whether to murderknife him just a touch more significant. so i wouldn't say his romance was completely divorced from plot.

but at the same time, i fell in love with the fact that merril seemed to have the most normal, healthy romance in the entire series. after having gone through every nut-job romance in the series prior to her, i was honestly very relieved to have at least one romance that was COMPLETELY independent of all the rest of the craziness going on.

i find both types of romances have their merits, so i think both should be included.

Merill wasn't indepenent, she was a tematic parallel, and thus fittered quite nicely in. Unlike Zevran, who, just had an introduction and a eventual betrayal that no one commented on.

She is very grounded though, and nice. I was certianly glad to have her on the team. Also she watered my plants.

well, i don't meen independent quite that way.  i meen that her romance itself isn't directly woven into the major plots, and that even her character-driven behaviors and quests never seem to be as woven into her romance.  the sort of partner that leaves work at work, and has clear boundaries between her professional and personal life.

all the other romances seemed to be woven into the main plot somehow, or to be complicated by their particular character quests/goals.  and while it's not possible for the character romances to be completely divorced from everything else, merril's came closer than anyone else's, imho.

(and yes, i LOVED that she watered the houseplants.  i'm pretty sure all my non-merril mancing hawkes ended up with sad, dead, brown things that only got thrown out.)

also, when you're talking about zev...  are you using the term betrayal b/c he turned on you in denerim, or b/c he eventually stops sleaping with the warden due to his issues, or what?  i don't feel like i understand what you meen by that statement.

Merril and Fenris are the same story mechanism. They don't really have any say in major main plot points after they are introduced. Fenris doesn't even have a major plot point in his introduction, but tematically the do reflect the conflicts. (Fenris - anti mage). Merrill (Blood mage, and freedom vs. security). So they feel naturall enough, as long as you drag them around a bit an have them banter.

(And no worries, she also waters non-li'ed Hawkes plotted plants. I think you just have to be friendship)

The perhaps betrayal in Denerim. It is an interaction with the main plot line, because I do think the crows attacks no matter what. But the second crow attack are so little reacted to by the game and companions that it feels like it is only there to give Zevran a chance to betray you and thus for me feels detacted from the main story. The other issue belongs completely to his own story line (And how does no sex even equal betrayal in any way:?).

And don't even get me started on Leliana who first becomes important after the game in which she was a Li.

ok, i think i follow now.  only i don't see the fenmance in the same terms as the merrilmance (b/c their character issues influence the romance waaaaaay differently).  but their overall weave into the main plot (whether romanced or not) is nill, like you said.

as for zev, his sudden 180 about having sex wtih the warden consititues a relationship betrayal (imho), but not a plot betrayal.  hence part of the reason i got confused and needed the clarification.  i also wasn't thinking in terms of his initial introduction standing as a betrayal in and of itself.  probably b/c i've always seen him as a mere pawn in terms of the overall betrayal motif going on with the wardens/logain, rather than a literal traitor.  (unless he sides with talisan in denerim, of course.)

and have we gone on a lovely tangent about plants and elves?  i think we have!  :innocent:

[esper]

Well, it was my understanding that we were discussing the weave into the main plot (and watered plants of course. Musn't forget the watered plants)

My problem with da:o was the Zevran and Leliana felt badly weaved into the main plot. But I think I am with Ser Fish here. I want the romanced to by influenced by the main plot, absolutely. That would make it feel like they fitted into the story. The other way around is perhaps not necessary even if it is nice.

[labargegrrrl]

esper wrote...

Well, it was my understanding that we were discussing the weave into the main plot (and watered plants of course. Musn't forget the watered plants)

My problem with da:o was the Zevran and Leliana felt badly weaved into the main plot. But I think I am with Ser Fish here. I want the romanced to by influenced by the main plot, absolutely. That would make it feel like they fitted into the story. The other way around is perhaps not necessary even if it is nice.

i, on the other hand, want romances available that are both well woven into the plot, as well as not remotely connected to it.

(and my plants to be watered no matter who my li is.)

[esper]

labargegrrrl wrote...

esper wrote...

Well, it was my understanding that we were discussing the weave into the main plot (and watered plants of course. Musn't forget the watered plants)

My problem with da:o was the Zevran and Leliana felt badly weaved into the main plot. But I think I am with Ser Fish here. I want the romanced to by influenced by the main plot, absolutely. That would make it feel like they fitted into the story. The other way around is perhaps not necessary even if it is nice.

i, on the other hand, want romances available that are both well woven into the plot, as well as not remotely connected to it.

(and my plants to be watered no matter who my li is.)

I don't want romances not woven into the plot, because I don't want plot irrellevant companions at all (li or not). The worst offender with this in da2 is Fenris and he fits tematically. I will settle for no less than that.

(If my plants aren't watered in da:I I am cancelling my pre-order.)

[Plaintiff]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It wasn't my magical sexing that brought Isabela back to Kirkwall with the Qunari Book?

No, she realised she'd left her pants behind.