40 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

 I'm not so sure the romance should affect the plot so much as it should be acknowledged by the plot

If we use the Ashley example from Mass Effect, yes she asks if it was your feelings for her that affected your decision, but the decision is still made regardless of the relationship (you can choose to save her without being in a romance, after all)  Similarly whether she becomes more trusting of aliens or not doesn't alter any decisions you have to make, just her input on them.

For another example, in DAO, when Morrigan is making the Dark Ritual offer, if you are in a relationship with any of the other three LIs, and you initially refuse the offer, she uses that as a point to convince you to go through with the ritual:  

"If you would rather, consider Leliana.  What do you think she would advise if she knew her beloved was at risk?"

"And if you take the blow instead, he (Alistair) loses the woman he loves.  How do you think he would feel about that?"

"I am glad to make this offer to you, after all we have meant to each other."

Can't find what Morrigan says about Zevran, but I'm sure it's something similar. 

Point being, I don't think it's so important that the romance (or lack of one) affects the game's story in a major way, but it should be an acknowledged aspect of it, rather than some sequestered side event.  Unless of course the romance is deliberately kept secret, of course.

Modifié par iakus, 26 octobre 2012 - 10:39 .

[esper]

@Iakus, I think that is what we are talking about when we are talking about the main plot affecting the romances (or at least it was for me). The problem is that one line for Morrigan near end-game. Doesn't make it feel like the romance is part of the story. I want more reactivety like in da2 when your mother died, your li at least attempted to comfort you.

And I still don't want plot irrelevant companions at all.

[Plaintiff]

On-topic, I think you're completely wrong in your assessment of DA2.

Romancing Anders doesn't change his actions, and it shouldn't, but it couches the events in a completely different context than if Anders was merely a friend or a rival.

I don't particularly see why romance needs to be heavily integrated into the main plot of Dragon Age, or any other game, unless you're writing a story like The Fifth Element, where the villain can only be defeated by 'the power of love'. In most adventure stories, be they book or film or videogame, romance is a secondary component. It occurs in the lull between major plot events, as a form of character development.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 26 octobre 2012 - 10:50 .

[Iakus]

esper wrote...

@Iakus, I think that is what we are talking about when we are talking about the main plot affecting the romances (or at least it was for me). The problem is that one line for Morrigan near end-game. Doesn't make it feel like the romance is part of the story. I want more reactivety like in da2 when your mother died, your li at least attempted to comfort you.

And I still don't want plot irrelevant companions at all.

Well, if you include party banter concering the romances, it wasn't just one line .  I just picked it because it was a line in the main storylilne.  

Heck in DA2, there's a moment of Merrill/Aveline banter involving the Hawke romance that I found to be the single most awesome piece of banter in the game 

But yeah, more reactivity would be nice.  Subtle changes to acknowledge it's there.

[TsaiMeLemoni]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Though I like romances, I think they should be optional content. As such, it's hard to tie them too closely to the main plot, as you don't want people who don't pursue romance to feel left out.

In my mind, a romance should be a interesting subplot that runs parallel to the main story without really affecting it.

I agree with this.

It is optional content, why should it impact anything of importance?

[someguy1231]

Romances still need to be optional. Making them affect the plot in significant ways would undermine that. Remember, these aren't dating sims, no matter how much some people treat them like it. I remember in the Mass Effect forums, when anger against the ending of ME3 was still fresh, I kept seeing fan-proposed endings that were basically sappy "happily ever after with my space waifu" tripe, pretty much taking it for granted that the player romanced someone. I do NOT want that in DA.

[frostajulie]

I agree OP in DAO even though Zev is my favorite LI because he is hilariously funny and has such a wonderful sarcastic wit and, you know will give up everything for you... sorry fangirly moment

Alistair and Morrigans romances seemed to have more depth and I think that was because their romance seemed to tie into the main story romancing them was more meaningful to the warden. and one of my top 10 video game moments was when Alistair dumped my elf mage when she spared Loghain and then just left. Nevr before had a game so managed to pull on my heartstrings and then stomp them into bloody pulp. Thats a romance with significant plot impact.

[marshalleck]

frostajulie wrote...

I agree OP in DAO even though Zev is my favorite LI because he is hilariously funny and has such a wonderful sarcastic wit and, you know will give up everything for you... sorry fangirly moment

Alistair and Morrigans romances seemed to have more depth and I think that was because their romance seemed to tie into the main story romancing them was more meaningful to the warden. and one of my top 10 video game moments was when Alistair dumped my elf mage when she spared Loghain and then just left. Nevr before had a game so managed to pull on my heartstrings and then stomp them into bloody pulp. Thats a romance with significant plot impact.

Huh. My dude warden let Anora execute him for treason when he started flipping out and being unreasonable. 

[SirGladiator]

I definitely support making the romances more meaningful, tying them into the plot in some way would be great. Certainly in BG2, your LI gets kidnapped and you have to rescue her. In DA2 that happens to your sister instead, but again we're talking about a character that you care about, so the same basic principle applies. In ME2, if you're romancing Kelly then again, same deal. Of course DA2 also has the whole Isabella running off with the book thing, and Merrill you can help with the mirror and her clan, although that isnt especially important in the greater scheme of things. Let's not forget KOTOR either, where your relationship with Bastilla plays a HUGE role, especially in the ending. Your relationship with Silk Fox plays a rather important role also. The bottom line is, the more important your relationship with your LI (or your family, if you have one in DA3) is to the main plotline, the better the game is going to be, thats been seen over and over again, and I hope we get a nice big dose of it in DA3.

[Plaintiff]

SirGladiator wrote...

I definitely support making the romances more meaningful, tying them into the plot in some way would be great. Certainly in BG2, your LI gets kidnapped and you have to rescue her. In DA2 that happens to your sister instead

Only if she's alive. If Bethany and Carver are both dead, then the hostage taken is your LI, (even if they're in the party, I think). If Hawke hasn't romanced anyone, then it defaults to the companion with the highest Friendship rating.

[JWvonGoethe]

I agree with the OP completely. Ashley, Morrigan and Alistair romances just felt like a natural part of the story. Nobody should feel forced to start a romance for the sake of plot dictates, but when romances have no dramatic resonance with the main plot, they can just end up feeling like window dressing (as was the case with Merrill, I felt, despite her being an interesting character with a good side quest.)

I'd just like to add one thing: all companions, unless deeply private, should be seen to be leading their own independent romantic lives. This could mean multiple things, for instance: that they are in a relationship; are celibate; spend a lot of time and money in brothels; or, that they express anxiety about being unable to find someone. The PC should be able to intervene here by romancing these companions, which moves them out of their default non-romanced character progression path. Additionally, seeing companions having relationships with one another as well, independent of the player character, would just be expected in any believable dramatic setting.

A couple of companions, especially Oghren and Aveline, had independent romantic lives which were a more visible part of the story. However, neither character here was romanceable. That said, this is the kind of romantic independence that should be demonstrated by even romanceable characters prior to entering a relationship with them. Otherwise, it felt like the companions are all just standing around waiting to be swept off their feet bythe PC.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 27 octobre 2012 - 04:56 .

[Kileyan]

It would be even more refreshing if romance had almost nothing to do with the main plot, and was an entire separate storyline. The main plot is shoved down our throats enough in most games, always urging us on. It would be an escape from the railroading of the story for a romance option to totally diverge from the main plot. Maybe even your romance option was not a world saving warrior women mage, and just a really nice gal from a small town that caught your eye.

I like to explore games, exhaust everything I can uncover. I don't know how to best say it, but I'd like the feeling of the romance story to be an extra thing I can do, not a little thing that is attached to the main plot flags.......you mean I can't woo this chick and finally marry her until the final battle with the super Dragon that Loghain zombie is riding, why?

Make romances their own story, not crap thrown into the main plot, they feel less like stories and more like stuff tacked onto the main story in order to get an achievment or trophy.

[JWvonGoethe]

Kileyan wrote...

It would be even more refreshing if romance had almost nothing to do with the main plot, and was an entire separate storyline. The main plot is shoved down our throats enough in most games, always urging us on. It would be an escape from the railroading of the story for a romance option to totally diverge from the main plot. Maybe even your romance option was not a world saving warrior women mage, and just a really nice gal from a small town that caught your eye.

I like to explore games, exhaust everything I can uncover. I don't know how to best say it, but I'd like the feeling of the romance story to be an extra thing I can do, not a little thing that is attached to the main plot flags.......you mean I can't woo this chick and finally marry her until the final battle with the super Dragon that Loghain zombie is riding, why?

Make romances their own story, not crap thrown into the main plot, they feel less like stories and more like stuff tacked onto the main story in order to get an achievment or trophy.

I think it is just a question of narrative coherence. In virtually no well-written dramatic structure will there exist a subplot which is completely removed from the main plot.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 27 octobre 2012 - 04:46 .

[Kileyan]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

It would be even more refreshing if romance had almost nothing to do with the main plot, and was an entire separate storyline. The main plot is shoved down our throats enough in most games, always urging us on. It would be an escape from the railroading of the story for a romance option to totally diverge from the main plot. Maybe even your romance option was not a world saving warrior women mage, and just a really nice gal from a small town that caught your eye.

I like to explore games, exhaust everything I can uncover. I don't know how to best say it, but I'd like the feeling of the romance story to be an extra thing I can do, not a little thing that is attached to the main plot flags.......you mean I can't woo this chick and finally marry her until the final battle with the super Dragon that Loghain zombie is riding, why?

Make romances their own story, not crap thrown into the main plot, they feel less like stories and more like stuff tacked onto the main story in order to get an achievment or trophy.

I think it is just a question of narrative coherence. In virtually no well-written dramatic structure will there exist a subplot which is completely removed from the main plot.

I have to disagree. Some of my favorite quests of past rpgs were little self contained stories, things that happened totally independent of the main story. You seem to be saying that romances MUST be tied to the main plot, the big quest to kill the big bad....why is that so?

There is no reason that a romance story can't be told in the same way as a lengthy side quest, or even a point of view chapters of a book that has nothing to do with the heroes main journey.

The only reason people think it has to be tied to the main quest, is because Bioware has always made romances the same way......... flirt, kiss, profess your love, finalize it right before everyone rushes off to possibly die. It is time to change that up. Make things feel more like a living world, instead of a novel. These are games, those don't have to follow the same structures you refer to. In fact they are getting stale by holding to those same predictable structures.

Modifié par Kileyan, 27 octobre 2012 - 04:55 .

[JWvonGoethe]

Kileyan wrote...

I have to disagree. Some of my favorite quests of past rpgs were little self contained stories, things that happened totally independent of the main story. You seem to be saying that romances MUST be tied to the main plot, the big quest to kill the big bad....why is that so?

There is no reason that a romance story can't be told in the same way as a lengthy side quest, or even a point of view chapters of a book that has nothing to do with the heroes main journey.

The only reason people think it has to be tied to the main quest, is because Bioware has always made romances the same way......... flirt, kiss, profess your love, finalize it right before everyone rushes off to possibly die. It is time to change that up. Make things feel more like a living world, instead of a novel. These are games, those don't have to follow the same structures you refer to. In fact they are getting stale by holding to those same predictable structures.

I think believability is the key here. I can not envisage a situation in real life where you could enter into a meaningful relationship with someone and not have that influence other parts of your life. In a fantasy setting that would mean, at the very least, having the main character's perspective being altered in some way by the relationship, which might affect some of the choices made in the course of the main plot. 

I understand what you mean about predictable plot structures, but there is a world of difference between avoiding storytelling cliches and, on the other hand, writing a story which is just a mass of unrelated plot threads. Don't get me wrong, there is a large audience for that kind of thing - see the Elder Scrolls as an example. But I think Bioware built its audience on story, and I wouldn't like or expect to see them abandon that.

[FlyinElk212]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

I agree with the OP completely. Ashley, Morrigan and Alistair romances just felt like a natural part of the story. Nobody should feel forced to start a romance for the sake of plot dictates, but when romances have no dramatic resonance with the main plot, they can just end up feeling like window dressing (as was the case with Merrill, I felt, despite her being an interesting character with a good side quest.)

Precisely. 

Not saying that the other romances available in those games were any less fulfilling...but they were certainly less impacting and less believable.

BTW, your back and forth with Killeyan has been hands down the best thing I've read on BSN in years. YEARS!!