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If the writers decide to put 'bittersweetness' ahead of everything else, they're making the same mistakes all over again.


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#1
David7204

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"He is the hero, he is everything."

Since the release of Mass Effect 3 about eight months ago, I've been following much of the BioWare staff wherever I can. Like many players, I was incredibly disappointed with the ending of Mass Effect 3, and was interested in the responses and opinions of the staff to see the reasons behind such a mistake and the likelihood of it happening again. I haven't played the Dragon Age games, but I've spent time on the forum since because some of the writers have been much more active on the forums and such since the announcement of Dragon Age III.

One of the things I picked up quickly is that the writers are very eager for 'bittersweet' stories. Some of the most enthusiastic reponses I've seen by the writers are how much they love 'bittersweetness.' And it makes me uneasy, because I feel as though they might well be making the same mistakes that have been made beforehand. There's a general simmering frustration amongst fans that the Mass Effect team is still unaware of why and how they messed up. I have to admit - considering the Extended Cut certainly made things better but failed to address any of the core problems, I'm not convinced myself. This does little to ease my concerns. If the writers are putting 'bittersweetness' above everything else, there's a very good chance that the quality of the story will suffer for it. The worst of that, worse than anything else, would be the writers deciding 'bittersweetness' is more important than heroism.

Heroism needs to matter.

That's one of the reasons why Mass Effect is one of the most outstanding stories ever told. Any other video game would present the situations Shepard finds him/herself in as unwinnable and the protagonist as helpless. But not Mass Effect. And not because Shepard is lucky or because of silly circumstances or nonsense science like so many other stories resort to. But because Shepard is smart. Because s/he's a hero. Because s/he's the ideal hero. And because heroism is meaningful.

It's also the primary reason why Mass Effect 3's ending was so horrible. Because heroism is meaningless. Because love, hope, unity, friendship, and every other quality a hero like Shepard embodies count for nothing. Because every friend, every ally, every ship, and every struggle encountered by Shepard in 120 hours of gameplay contribute so overwhelmingly little to the resolution of the conflict. So much less than we expected. So much less than Shepard deserves. I never want to see that happen again.

Finally, it's the reason why I've yet to play the Dragon Age games despite being blown away by Mass Effect. I spend a lot of time on TV Tropes (which is generally an excellent source for this sort of thing), and there's a fair number of examples of conflicts in the series and Dragon Age II in particular that were handled less-than-ideally. Conflicts that could have been avoided if characters had been a bit smarter. Conflicts where the protagonist is helpless to prevent a situation that the player sees a solution to.

It essentially boils down to the same problem. Heroism doesn't count for enough. Characters are cruel and selfish and foolish no matter what. Everything goes to hell no matter what. What's the point?

Now, does that mean the Dragon Age writers are sub-par? Of course not. This is an issue to at least some extent with every RPG. There's really a fairly small pool of what we would consider 'modern RPGs', but nonetheless the ones that exist are filled with supposedly heroic (or optionally heroic) protagonists whose heroism doesn't actually count for much. Not only are many of these stories eager to throw heroism under the bus, they very often sacrifice continuity, characterzation, plot coherency, and scientific accuracy. The moral that these stories seem to imply is “No matter what, you lose, because that's just so mature and hardcore and realistic!” Frankly, it disappoints me how easily many players seem to be impressed with this sort of thing.

There's been only one "lose-lose" choice that I truly feel was well done with a 'heroic' protagonist, where both sides had solid reasons for doing what they did, where it truly made sense for the protagonist to be forced to chose because there is really no other option, where the choice wasn't devalued by annoyance or even frustration on my part because there was a clear good choice or words of course of action that my character was unable to carry out . One - which is the choice made at the conclusion of The Pitt DLC for Fallout 3.

The point of all this is that creating such situations is hard. It's a hard, hard, hard, thing to do. It's hard to write plausible situations and conflicts where characters are heroic but still helpless to make an impact. The reason why is because it is a fundamental contradiction to have heroism matter and yet have heroic characters meet bad or even bittersweet conclusions no matter what. It only gets worse when the Theory of Narrative Causality is considered, as it should be for all epic stories such as Dragon Age.

Now, does this mean every story in existence needs to have meaningful heroism? Absolutely not. Since we're talking about video games, Kane and Lynch is an excellent example that comes to mind. Kane and Lynch and its sequel are mediocre games, but the story stands out for being one of the absolute bleakest you can find. Everything that could go wrong, goes wrong, and it's made worse by the complete lack of romanticism and the sheer miserable realism that pervades the story. The first game ends with a lose-lose choice (The achievements for ending the game for each choice are even called “Damned if you do.” and “Damned if you don't.”) But it's all perfectly okay, because the story never pretends for a moment that heroism exists for this setting and these characters, so there's no verdict for how powerful heroism is one way or the other.

In summery, the writers have a choice. You can have heroism mattering, or you can have bittersweet endings and consequences no matter what. One is relatively easy to create while the other is considerably more difficult. One is commonplace and the other is rare. And one will draw me into Dragon Age III while the other will almost certainly disinterest me.

Your choice.

Modifié par David7204, 27 octobre 2012 - 05:26 .


#2
JWvonGoethe

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Thanks for your thoughts, that was an interesting read.

#3
Nashimura

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I want more than one ending and they should vary. You could have bittersweet in Origins when you die, or you can have the big celebrations and the victory talks with everyone.

#4
upsettingshorts

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I'm not sure I buy your premise. "Bittersweetness" does not equal the Mass Effect 3 ending.

The story of say... let's take Saving Private Ryan: That's a bittersweet film, would you say the heroism in it does't matter?

That said I never thought heroism mattered in Mass Effect because all the Paragon choices ended up working out swimmingly and being good cost you absolutely nothing. Contrast it with a Renegade option that sacrifices much for results - that are the same or worse - and it's just a series filled with unmet dramatic potential. For a while I thought about doing a post like yours criticizing how righteousness without sacrifice - like Paragon in ME - is unfulfilling, but after the ME3 ending hullabaloo it seemed pointless.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:10 .


#5
wsandista

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Bittersweet =/= depressing ending.

DAO could have a bittersweet ending, but heroism does matter.

#6
FINE HERE

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I'm okay with sad endings as long as the option for a happy ending exists. There needs to be a variety. "The hero dies" is as over played as "Everyone lives happily ever after" these days.

#7
David7204

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If heroism matters, then isn't the 'heroic' path being the best rewarded (although not necessarily the easiest) the logical conclusion?

Not only that, being hero doesnt mean "no sacrifice." That's the entire point of a choice. You give up something, no matter what.

Modifié par David7204, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:14 .


#8
upsettingshorts

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David7204 wrote...

If heroism matters, then isn't the 'heroic' path being the best rewarded (although not necessarily the easiest) the logical conclusion?


The sticking point for me is "easiest."  

The way said post - the one I didn't write - would have argued it ought to have been done was fairly simple:

Paragon path-> Fewer ingame rewards.  This means your path to the end is more difficult.  The reward for being a good character is having other characters feel good about Shepard, and feeling good about yourself and your choices.

Renegade path-> More ingame rewards.  This means your path to the end is easier.  The reward for being calculating and expedient is having an easier, less risky path.  The downside is your character is a jerk and everyone knows it.

But in making both Paragon and Renegade more or less equal (except in cases where Renegade simply loses out on content entirely which is another rant) it removes the value of that choice and reduces the equation to one of simple flavor, which I think is a missed opportunity.

I suppose this is sort of on topic for your thread, but I'll bring it back.  Dragon Age games don't really do this.  There's no morality system, and the situations presented are closer to blue/orange morality than say... gray on gray.  The world is different, it faces different challenges, and the more you immerse yourself in the context of Thedas the more clear this becomes I think.  Therefore bittersweet is sort of... par for the course, with exceptions for some third-option-everyone-wins paths you can take given the right circumstances.  

David7204 wrote...

Not only that, being hero doesnt mean "no sacrifice." That's the entire point of a choice. You give up something, no matter what. 


Not in Mass Effect.  Except when choosing Renegade, you often had to give up content.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:20 .


#9
JWvonGoethe

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FINE HERE wrote...

I'm okay with sad endings as long as the option for a happy ending exists. There needs to be a variety. "The hero dies" is as over played as "Everyone lives happily ever after" these days.


The 'hero dies' ending is really as old as storytelling itself. It's interesting that your comment could have been made two and a half thousand years ago about the plays of Aeschylus. In classical literature characters who die at the end are often called tragic heroes.

It's even more apt that Aeschylus is famous for having written trilogies!

#10
Realmzmaster

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Heroes also have to at times sacrifice themselves for the greater good. That still makes for a bittersweet ending. Dead heroes are still heroes and their heroism lives on in history.

Heroism does not mean living happily ever after. Also sometimes there is no happy ending. The best that can be hoped for is bittersweet. Sometimes the only ending is the best choice between two dismal endings.

Also you can have the tragic hero who tries and has successes but ultimately fails. Does that make that hero any less heroic. History is full of heroes who gave their life to save others. The ending is happy and bittersweet at the same time.

I choose not to limit how a writer writes the story. I will be drawn in by a good story that puts my character on a journey where I may or may not be successful but I can enjoy the journey.
Sometimes that bittersweet ending makes me go wow I did not see that coming. I enjoy those types of endings.

#11
Plaintiff

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Oh lord, here we go again. As usual, I'm going to open with this:

Image IPB


David7204 wrote...
Heroism needs to matter.

Why? What does that even mean?


That's one of the reasons why Mass Effect is one of the most outstanding stories ever told. Any other video game would present the situations Shepard finds him/herself in as unwinnable and the protagonist as helpless.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.
 
No it wouldn't. The vast majority of videogames are the ultimate example of shallow hero-fantasy wish-fullfilment.


It's also the primary reason why Mass Effect 3's ending was so horrible. Because heroism is meaningless. Because love, hope, unity, friendship, and every other quality a hero like Shepard embodies count for nothing. Because every friend, every ally, every ship, and every struggle encountered by Shepard in 120 hours of gameplay contribute so overwhelmingly little to the resolution of the conflict. So much less than we expected. So much less than Shepard deserves. I never want to see that happen again.

Then I suggest you stay away from Science Fiction generally.

I have a major, major problem with your extremely shallow definition of "heroism", particularly the notion that heroism "doesn't matter" unless the hero wins, that a 'hero' cannot fail, and that victory should never require significant sacrifice.

Heroism, love, hope, and the other qualities you describe, matter for their own sake, because they are beautiful things. They do not need justification, they make the universe a better place by simply existing, and fighting to preserve them is absolutely a worthwhile cause, regardless of whether or not you win or lose. If you ask me, heroism is present in a lot of things, including quite ordinary activites that must seem mundane to a videogame player like yourself.

I have not played Mass Effect, but it seems to me that losing does not make Shepard any less of a hero, or his actions any less meaningful.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:33 .


#12
David7204

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The Renegade options shouldn't be rewarded simply because they're Renegade. For a great deal of them, Shepard is being pointlessly cruel or petty. Conversely, most of the Paragon choices are clearly the smartest course of action. Which is often the case in real life.

#13
upsettingshorts

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David7204 wrote...

The Renegade options shouldn't be rewarded simply because they're Renegade. For a great deal of them, Shepard is being pointlessly cruel or petty. Conversely, most of the Paragon choices are clearly the smartest course of action. Which is often the case in real life.


Renegade is full of problems because of bad, inconsistent writing.  It was true when I wrote this post after Mass Effect 2, and it was only slightly better in Mass Effect 3.

#14
CuriousArtemis

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Um, I stopped reading when you said you'd never played Dragon Age. Why are you here...?

I'll never get the ME3 hate. I'll probably have to play the first two to really get it. But just having played ME3, I really, really enjoyed the ending. It made me cry buckets.

#15
Fredward

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Eh. Tragic hero anyone? If anything I want MORE bittersweetness. Origins had a bittersweet ending, as did ME3 and they're the ending that stick. DA2 didn't have an ending and so I find myself thinking about just about never, I don't even really care what happened to Hawke since their is nothing to suggest that he/she didn't make a clean escape and got taken by whatever took the Warden. Heroism doesn't mean less if the hero dies. It means more.

I'm starting to intensely dislike these games where no one dies and you walk merrily off into the sunset. You have this epic struggle against this big bad and no one dies? No meaningful sacrifices are made? You traipse happily off into history and go make babies with your LI totally ignoring the fact that you had a pivotal role in shaping history and people are going to be looking for/trying to kill you for the rest of your life? Nah man. In Fable 3 you can have a war against a evil darkness thing that take over peoples minds and if you have enough money not a SINGLE civilian dies and only ONE of your companions. It's soooo ridiculous. THAT makes it meaningless. 

If anything I want MOAR bittersweetness (woops I repeated myself but its early and this just proves how much bittersweetness I want xp), give me the choice between my LI and the cause, give me the choice between my life and victory that kinda thing. But people call me a masochist so don't mind me. xp

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:32 .


#16
David7204

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The Renegade options shouldn't be rewarded simply because they're Renegade. For a great deal of them, Shepard is being pointlessly cruel or petty. Conversely, most of the Paragon choices are clearly the smartest course of action. Which is often the case in real life.


Renegade is full of problems because of bad, inconsistent writing.  It was true when I wrote this post after Mass Effect 2, and it was only slightly better in Mass Effect 3.


Renegade is 'full of problems' because being pointlessly cruel or petty is full of problems. Reading your post, you seem to assume off that bat that every choice is 'right thing vs. smart thing' and any choice that doesn't provide a 'smart but evil' option is bad writing. Which is garbage.

#17
Palipride47

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I hated it at first.

Absolutely hated that no matter what I did, whether Hawke went along with Anders's strange favors or told him to shove off (or got rid of him in Act 2), whether or not I respected both sides, tried to be neutral,/keep the piece, or say "the hell with it," and stay out of the mess, Anders destroys the Chantry. And killing him doesn't change Meredith's mind, and neither does Orsino's offer to capitulate- short of annulment. I can't stop the Qunari from starting a war, and I can;t stop the Chantry fanatics from provoking it. I am forced to choose a side, and either way, the world is at war by the end, and I'm a hero to one side and a villain to the others.

However, this was a failure of expectations because the two games share a franchise name.

Dragon Age Origins was an epic tale of gathering forces to stop the destruction of the world, and though you may lose much to get there, you are a hero to the people of Fereldan, and to all of Thedas. You may have lost much, and done many questionable things, but the Blight was stopped, the hero takes the stage, the end. Your actions had consequences in DAO. Long lasting, epic consequences that matched the hero you were.

Dragon Age 2 was a personal journey of an ordinary refugee reacting to circumstances beyond their control. DA2's Hawke is a figurehead, a legend due to proximity, who merely stepped in when outside forces forced him/her to, and in the end, couldn;t stop bad things from happening to him/her personally, much less to the world.

People do not play video games (especially RPGs) to feel helpless. That is the problem. Hawke is helpless as soon as they are fleeing from Lothering. Helpless to stop the complete decimation of her family, through death or separation. Helpless to stop the decimation of Kirkwall. Helpless to stop Anders from acting out his (or Justice's plan), even when you convince him he was wrong to try.

People want to make a "dent." that lasts forever. And now Hawke feels like a bridge from DAO to DA3, a blip in the historical record, ultimately unimportant, even a couple of years later. Which, honestly, I feel bad for my Hawke.

But, I applaud Bioware for trying to break the trope, and I appreciated the effort much later than others.

I think it could have been implemented better. And I think it was partially because we were told, and believed, that this was The Warden 2.0. We were wrong, and Bioware was wrong to try and tell us otherwise (through marketing).

But honestly, I think DA2 turned out to be a BETTER STORY (in theory more than practice). Because it isn't a player circlejerk designed to fulfill our hero fantasies.

David7204 wrote...
Finally, it's the reason why I've yet to play the Dragon Age games despite being blown away by Mass Effect. I spend a lot of time on TV Tropes (which is generally an excellent source for this sort of thing), and there's a fair number of examples of conflicts in the series and Dragon Age II in particular that were handled less-than-ideally. Conflicts that could have been avoided if characters had been a bit smarter. Conflicts where the protagonist is helpless to prevent a situation that the player sees a solution to.
It essentially boils down to the same problem. Heroism doesn't count for enough. Characters are cruel and selfish and foolish no matter what. Everything goes to hell no matter what. What's the point? 


Wait, I am now reading that you've never even played the games (to even know the storyline), yet you judge the writing based on a cursory understanding of TVTropes.com? (which is the biggest pile of bull in terms of definitions of literary tropes imaginable)
 
I am now even more disinclined to agree with you. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 27 octobre 2012 - 11:24 .


#18
upsettingshorts

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David7204 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The Renegade options shouldn't be rewarded simply because they're Renegade. For a great deal of them, Shepard is being pointlessly cruel or petty. Conversely, most of the Paragon choices are clearly the smartest course of action. Which is often the case in real life.


Renegade is full of problems because of bad, inconsistent writing.  It was true when I wrote this post after Mass Effect 2, and it was only slightly better in Mass Effect 3.


Renegade is 'full of problems' because being pointlessly cruel or petty is full of problems. Reading your post, you seem to assume off that bat that every choice is 'right thing vs. smart thing' and any choice that doesn't provide a 'smart but evil' option is bad writing. Which is garbage.


You're missed both the point of Renegade and my old post entirely, which is garbage.  Guess that's my cue to stop taking this thread seriously.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:42 .


#19
David7204

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This has nothing to do with video games as a medium. This has nothing do with 'power fantasies.' This is all fiction.

Modifié par David7204, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:50 .


#20
David7204

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What exactly do you suggest? Just take out Renegade options for half the choices? Because having a 'smart and evil' option for every choice is ridiculous. Because it's a ridiculous premise. If you want to play smart and you think some of the options aren't smart, then fine. Don't pick that Renegade choice. Problem solved.

You said right in your post that's "how I think he ought to be." Seems pretty clear to me.

Modifié par David7204, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:46 .


#21
Maria Caliban

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FINE HERE wrote...

"The hero dies" is as over played as "Everyone lives happily ever after" these days.

Um.

The hero dying is very uncommon in Western media and is almost never part of a 'happy' ending. For every story where the hero dies, I can think of twenty where the hero lives.

I mean, Mass Effect 3 is the only video game I can think of released this year where the hero must die.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Renegade is full of problems because of bad, inconsistent writing.  It was true when I wrote this post after Mass Effect 2, and it was only slightly better in Mass Effect 3.

Indeed.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:48 .


#22
Palipride47

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motomotogirl wrote...

Um, I stopped reading when you said you'd never played Dragon Age. Why are you here...?

I'll never get the ME3 hate. I'll probably have to play the first two to really get it. But just having played ME3, I really, really enjoyed the ending. It made me cry buckets.


I think it has to do with the fact that you play that same person for three games, define their every action, get to know characters for years, and all of it is discounted for three ending colors. 

It would be like playing DAO and DA2 with your Warden, interacting with those same characters you know and love, fighting the same foe, making hard decisons, basically living out the life of the Warden, crafting them perfectly, and, in the end........NONE of your decisions, made carefully over three games, mattered. Like if doing the OGB ritual and keeping the Architect alive meant ABSOUTELY NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.

Which is the exact opposite reason we play video games (as I wrote in my long post)

Bioware wants to be a storytelling medium. We want to play video games. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:55 .


#23
upsettingshorts

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David7204 wrote...

What exactly do you suggest? Just take out Renegade options for half the choices? Because having a 'smart and evil' option for every choice is ridiculous. Because it's a ridiculous premise.

You said right in your post that's "how I think he ought to be." Seems pretty clear to me.


No, I am in fact suggesting the entire series ought to have been rewritten based on a coherent idea for Renegade that isn't completely all over the map.  My suggestion for that coherent idea is one that makes tough calls. The problem is that renegade!Shepard is incoherent, and tries to hold together the three kinds of actions I describe in that post.  Then, to add insult to injury, those choices are supported by content less often in future installments than Paragon ones.

Saying you're going to save all the babies and still get the bad guy and being able to save all the babies and still get the bad guy sucks, dramatically speaking, and it doesn't give me any feeling of accomplishment after having made that "decision."  Such choices are ruined because they aren't "save the babies or get the bad guy" they're "save the babies and get the bad guy or let the babies die and get the bad guy."  That's not a choice, that's a burlesque.  

It's not that all choices should be smart vs. right, it's that a distinction like that would actually make sense for a dichotomy like Paragon/Renegade.  Failing that, I'd advocate the entire system being dropped.  As it stands, it's a contorted mess of a feature clumsily imported from a game where it actually made sense, Knights of the Old Republic.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:57 .


#24
JWvonGoethe

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Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Eh. Tragic hero anyone? If anything I want MORE bittersweetness. Origins had a bittersweet ending, as did ME3 and they're the ending that stick. DA2 didn't have an ending and so I find myself thinking about just about never, I don't even really care what happened to Hawke since their is nothing to suggest that he/she didn't make a clean escape and got taken by whatever took the Warden. Heroism doesn't mean less if the hero dies. It means more.

I'm starting to intensely dislike these games where no one dies and you walk merrily off into the sunset. You have this epic struggle against this big bad and no one dies? No meaningful sacrifices are made? You traipse happily off into history and go make babies with your LI totally ignoring the fact that you had a pivotal role in shaping history and people are going to be looking for/trying to kill you for the rest of your life? Nah man. In Fable 3 you can have a war against a evil darkness thing that take over peoples minds and if you have enough money not a SINGLE civilian dies and only ONE of your companions. It's soooo ridiculous. THAT makes it meaningless. 

If anything I want MOAR bittersweetness (woops I repeated myself but its early and this just proves how much bittersweetness I want xp), give me the choice between my LI and the cause, give me the choice between my life and victory that kinda thing. But people call me a masochist so don't mind me. xp


(Emphasis mine.)

I mentioned the issue of tragic heroes in my second post, above, on this thread. Technically I'm not sure if Shepard fulfils this role. I have not played ME3 yet, but for Shepard to function as a tragic hero, he would need to exhibit a fatal flaw that leads directly to his demise. It would be interesting to see whether or not the Paragon/Renegade personalities would fulfil the function of operating as tragic flaws.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:58 .


#25
David7204

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It has nothing to do with being a video game. It would have been just as bad in any other medium.