591 réponses à ce sujet

[Pedrak]

Except the difference between "serious, mature" narrative and kiddie stories is that in the latter, while there might be difficult situations to overcome, at the end everything turns out to be fine for the protagonists; in the former, something has to be sacrificed or lost to achieve the final goal, and the reader/viewer/player is left with a sense that something great/important has been done, but at a great cost.

You know, like in real life, which is bittersweet by definition.

If people want 100% happy endings, good for them. I find them quite cheap and shallow.

If video games want to be taken seriously and to become a legitimate form of art, a Disney ending (in a non-Disney story!) with no shades of grey is a dubious solution.

If people believe the problem with ME3 final act was the fate of Shepard, they must have played a different game than I did, because I thought the lack of a cheesy "Yub-nub, everybody's fine!" ending was pretty much the only thing that worked. Seriously, the problem with ME3's conclusion were legion, but Shep buying the farm wasn't one of them.

Modifié par Pedrak, 28 octobre 2012 - 11:26 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Iveforgotmypassword wrote...
In fact having a sad ending but the ability to make choices that could change it to happy/bittersweet would increase it's replay value and make  people keep plugging away to get to it instead of trading in your product.

If there is a happy ending, it would likely be reached by playing the heroic nice guy all the time. If this wasn't the case, if being heroic and nice all the time led to a bad ending, you'd have people all over the forum complaining that they want to feel like a hero, that heroism should matter, etc.. So you can either implement such endings in a retarded way, or you can implement them in a way about which people will complain.

Xerxes Black wrote...
The crap endings where a symptom of... something (still trying to nail down what... maybe because... I dunno still working on that hehe).

They were a symptom of a story that was set up in a way that makes it impossible to end it properly without taking the "It's hopeless, everybody dies"-approach. We knew since ME 1 that beating the reapers in fleet battles is impossible. Thus, when the reaper fleet arrived at the beginning of ME 3, the option to end the story in a sensible way vanished, as "everybody dies" clearly wasn't going to be the approach they were going to take. It was all but certain they would use a deus ex machina, it's the only way the reapers can lose.

Sadly, the god was very very very badly handled.

PS: Am I the only one for whom the mechanism by which the synthesis-ending worked was by far the worst part of the ending?

[Ridwan]

Happy endings for the win, if you want realism go watch the news.

[Pedrak]

M25105 wrote...

Happy endings for the win, if you want realism go watch the news.

If we play this game, I might as well say "if you want happy endings, go watch Walt Disney"

Seriously, it seems to me all this hate toward "Bittersweet/sad/dark endings" stems from ME3's ending being weak.

Because I heard nobody complaining about the Ultimate Sacrifice ending of DAO, or the ending to Planescape: Torment, or Portal. None of them was happy, all were great.

Modifié par Pedrak, 28 octobre 2012 - 11:47 .

[Ridwan]

Pedrak wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Happy endings for the win, if you want realism go watch the news.

If we play this game, I might as well say "if you want happy endings, go watch Walt Disney"

Seriously, it seems to me all this hate toward "Bittersweet/sad/dark endings" stems from ME3's ending being weak.

Because I heard nobody complaining about the Ultimate Sacrifice ending of DAO, or the ending to Planescape: Torment, or Portal. None of them was happy, all were great.

DA: Origins gave you other options, like using Alistair, Loghain or sex Morrigan. When you invest yourself in a hero you want a damn ending that ends well, not something that leaves you with... ok... that sucked. It's for example far easier for me to replay DA: Origins then it is to replay DA 2, cause of the downer ending of the latter game.

When I play games, I play to win and then replay it cause it was awesome the first time, I didn't spend money cause of some failed writer who couldn't cut it writing books is now trying to force his vision on us players, that kills any replay value for me. It's a GAME, not a film.

[Pedrak]

M25105 wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Happy endings for the win, if you want realism go watch the news.

If we play this game, I might as well say "if you want happy endings, go watch Walt Disney"

Seriously, it seems to me all this hate toward "Bittersweet/sad/dark endings" stems from ME3's ending being weak.

Because I heard nobody complaining about the Ultimate Sacrifice ending of DAO, or the ending to Planescape: Torment, or Portal. None of them was happy, all were great.

DA: Origins gave you other options, like using Alistair, Loghain or sex Morrigan. When you invest yourself in a hero you want a damn ending that ends well, not something that leaves you with... ok... that sucked. It's for example far easier for me to replay DA: Origins then it is to replay DA 2, cause of the downer ending of the latter game.

When I play games, I play to win and then replay it cause it was awesome the first time, I didn't spend money cause of some failed writer who couldn't cut it writing books is now trying to force his vision on us players, that kills any replay value for me. It's a GAME, not a film.

I'd say that the reason DA2 ending sucked was that it was a cheap, vague cliffhanger offering no closure whatsoever and sweeping most of the characters  and events under the narrative rug of "Oh, and those guys's whereabouts are currently unknown. Buy the next game, people - 50-seconds cutscene over!".

I actually disliked it more than ME3's Extended Cut ending, because that at least gave some closure, flawed as it might have been.

Modifié par Pedrak, 28 octobre 2012 - 12:09 .

[Bfler]

Pedrak wrote...

If we play this game, I might as well say "if you want happy endings, go watch Walt Disney"
.

Or maybe multi-million dollar success movies like Avatar or LotR. Btw. Disney produced also dramas.

Modifié par Bfler, 28 octobre 2012 - 12:10 .

[Ridwan]

My point is, if the writers insist on having the fake "mature" dark endings, then give us, who don't want to deal with that BS a happier ending, ala sacrificing Loghain in DA: Origns, so we can get a good feeling and have more replay value. Cause guess what? I don't play games to be left with a downer feeling. If I want that, all I need to do is go google the news.

[Pedrak]

Bfler wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

If we play this game, I might as well say "if you want happy endings, go watch Walt Disney"
.

Or maybe multi-million dollar success movies like Avatar or LotR

Avatar was pretty much a Walt Disney movie. A good one, though.

And LOTR didn't have a happy ending - it's the very definition of a bittersweet one. Even without book knowledge that all the beauty is fading, the elves are migrating and yada yada yada, Frodo is leaving Middle-earth forever, some wounds never heal, and so on.

[Seboist]

Pedrak wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Happy endings for the win, if you want realism go watch the news.

If we play this game, I might as well say "if you want happy endings, go watch Walt Disney"

Seriously, it seems to me all this hate toward "Bittersweet/sad/dark endings" stems from ME3's ending being weak.

Because I heard nobody complaining about the Ultimate Sacrifice ending of DAO, or the ending to Planescape: Torment, or Portal. None of them was happy, all were great.

The sunshine crowd here wouldn't be able to handle Disney classics like Bambi or the Lion King which had the death of a protaganist's love one as a pivitol moment of the story. Oh and those classics were far better written than BW's recent recent efforts with said death of loved ones having a lasting impact on the story and wasn't a fluff cutscene that comes and goes like with Frankenmom and the Virmire casualty.

[Xilizhra]

The sunshine crowd here wouldn't be able to handle Disney classics like Bambi or the Lion King which had the death of a protaganist's love one as a pivitol moment of the story. Oh and those classics were far better written than BW's recent recent efforts with said death of loved ones having a lasting impact on the story and wasn't a fluff cutscene that comes and goes like with Frankenmom and the Virmire casualty.

Parental deaths are easier to swallow than LI deaths; parents are, basically, supposed to die before their children do.

[iSignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Parental deaths are easier to swallow than LI deaths; parents are, basically, supposed to die before their children do.

Indeed, parents will die before their children do with a very high probability. But not always.

However, one partner in a romantic couple will always die before the other. Except the rare cases of double suicide.

[Xilizhra]

iSignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Parental deaths are easier to swallow than LI deaths; parents are, basically, supposed to die before their children do.

Indeed, parents will die before their children do with a very high probability. But not always.

However, one partner in a romantic couple will always die before the other. Except the rare cases of double suicide.

True, strictly speaking, but the hope is that one of them will be almost dead when the other dies. That way it still feels equalish.

[Ridwan]

Seboist wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Happy endings for the win, if you want realism go watch the news.

If we play this game, I might as well say "if you want happy endings, go watch Walt Disney"

Seriously, it seems to me all this hate toward "Bittersweet/sad/dark endings" stems from ME3's ending being weak.

Because I heard nobody complaining about the Ultimate Sacrifice ending of DAO, or the ending to Planescape: Torment, or Portal. None of them was happy, all were great.

The sunshine crowd here wouldn't be able to handle Disney classics like Bambi or the Lion King which had the death of a protaganist's love one as a pivitol moment of the story. Oh and those classics were far better written than BW's recent recent efforts with said death of loved ones having a lasting impact on the story and wasn't a fluff cutscene that comes and goes like with Frankenmom and the Virmire casualty.

Either you're being sarcastic or you're being awfully pretentious. The Lion King had a happy ending, Scar died, Simba got back.

[iSignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

True, strictly speaking, but the hope is that one of them will be almost dead when the other dies. That way it still feels equalish.

That only happens when both partners are dying of old age (under similar living conditions and with similar genetic makeup). How likely is that in a fictional world, especially a crapsack world like Thedas?

[Xilizhra]

iSignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

True, strictly speaking, but the hope is that one of them will be almost dead when the other dies. That way it still feels equalish.

That only happens when both partners are dying of old age (under similar living conditions and with similar genetic makeup). How likely is that in a fictional world, especially a crapsack world like Thedas?

Likelier when you can kill anything else that comes your way.

[iSignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Likelier when you can kill anything else that comes your way.

Which is not the case in recent BioWare games. Shepard can't kill the Catalyst. Hawke can't kill Petrice or Grace (in Act 1). 

Also, even if you can kill everything you want you may still die prematurely. Alistair may succumb to the Taint much earlier than Queen Cousland; Shepard's cybernetics may deteriorate long before Garrus/Tali/Miranda grows old, Revan may have been over-aged by the Dark Side, etc. etc.

[Xilizhra]

iSignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Likelier when you can kill anything else that comes your way.

Which is not the case in recent BioWare games. Shepard can't kill the Catalyst. Hawke can't kill Petrice or Grace (in Act 1). 

Also, even if you can kill everything you want you may still die prematurely. Alistair may succumb to the Taint much earlier than Queen Cousland; Shepard's cybernetics may deteriorate long before Garrus/Tali/Miranda grows old, Revan may have been over-aged by the Dark Side, etc. etc.

But since all of that is in the future, it may be determined solely by headcanon.

[Pedrak]

Instead of attacking bittersweet endings (which can be done well) we should all agree on attacking rushed cliffhanger endings (which are always bad).

[culletron1]

David Gaider wrote...

The Mass Effect and Dragon Age games are written by different teams. Whether or not that's a good thing really depends on who you ask. Mainly it means that we're going to do different things with our storytelling.

Insofar as the storytelling itself, I do not and will never believe that every story must have a happy ending in order to be considered a good game. I would edge towards a preference that the player must feel like they've accomplished something, even if they had to pay a heavy price for it, but that's not required for a good story. Whether or not that's required for a good game is slightly different, if not entirely divorced from the story which is told in the context of that game.

Whether or not you feel we've made a good game, or written a good story... well, that's what opinions are for. The day that someone can state objectively what makes for a good game or a good story, we may as well shut down the Internet and send everyone home. Seeing as that's never going to happen, I'll just state that DA2 was intentionally trying to do something quite different with its story from DAO (whether or not you think it accomplished that notwithstanding), and DA3 will likely try something different from both. Well-intended advice aside, there is no way to please everyone with whatever we do, so my team will simply do our best and leave the judgment to you guys.

First let me say that I didn't really like DA2 all that much and I really didn't like the story in ME3 either... But I REALLY like that bioware writers are not afraid to take a more GRRM approach and less of a Disney approach to story telling. I want stories where I am genuinely worried about the safety of the characters in it. 

[culletron1]

Pedrak wrote...


Seriously, it seems to me all this hate toward "Bittersweet/sad/dark endings" stems from ME3's ending being weak.

Because I heard nobody complaining about the Ultimate Sacrifice ending of DAO, or the ending to Planescape: Torment, or Portal. None of them was happy, all were great.

I totally agree with you here. The whole plot of ME3 was incredibly weak, the star child ending was the icing on that particular (yucky) cake. If Shepard had made it out alive after all that nonsense it would have completely cheapened the experiece. 

[TheJediSaint]

Pedrak wrote...

Instead of attacking bittersweet endings (which can be done well) we should all agree on attacking rushed cliffhanger endings (which are always bad).

At the risk of being off topic, I think the problem with ME3's ending was that it was a "Push a button to choose your ending (color)" style of ending.   What you did before had little to no bearing on the final outcome of the game.

[Ridwan]

I don't see what peoples problem are. DA: Origins had everything. If you wanted a happy ending, you put Alistair on the throne and made Loghain sacrifice himself, or sexed Morrigan and no one died. If you wanted a bittersweet ending, you could sacrifice yourself or Alistair. Everyone wins.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

The sunshine crowd here wouldn't be able to handle Disney classics like Bambi or the Lion King which had the death of a protaganist's love one as a pivitol moment of the story. Oh and those classics were far better written than BW's recent recent efforts with said death of loved ones having a lasting impact on the story and wasn't a fluff cutscene that comes and goes like with Frankenmom and the Virmire casualty.

Parental deaths are easier to swallow than LI deaths; parents are, basically, supposed to die before their children do.

Well hello there cultural bias.  Besides, a person can always have another lover down the line, time has a habit of healing the wound of loss.

Edit:

Anyway, bittersweet, triumphant and depressing endings all have their place.  There shouldn't always be a golden ending.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 28 octobre 2012 - 02:46 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

M25105 wrote...
I don't see what peoples problem are. DA: Origins had everything. If you wanted a happy ending, you put Alistair on the throne and made Loghain sacrifice himself, or sexed Morrigan and no one died. If you wanted a bittersweet ending, you could sacrifice yourself or Alistair. Everyone wins.

It has been pointed out dozens of times in this thread that the "let's have both!"-approach doesn't work.