591 réponses à ce sujet

[Ridwan]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

M25105 wrote...
I don't see what peoples problem are. DA: Origins had everything. If you wanted a happy ending, you put Alistair on the throne and made Loghain sacrifice himself, or sexed Morrigan and no one died. If you wanted a bittersweet ending, you could sacrifice yourself or Alistair. Everyone wins.

It has been pointed out dozens of times in this thread that the "let's have both!"-approach doesn't work.

Why not? It seems kinda BS to not include both options, those that like to have the pretend "mature" endings can go ahead and whack their characters off while us that love the, what seems to be despised, happy endings can have that. I don't remember anyone really making a big fuss about DA: Origns other than Morrigan's baby.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

iSignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Likelier when you can kill anything else that comes your way.

Which is not the case in recent BioWare games. Shepard can't kill the Catalyst. Hawke can't kill Petrice or Grace (in Act 1). 

Also, even if you can kill everything you want you may still die prematurely. Alistair may succumb to the Taint much earlier than Queen Cousland; Shepard's cybernetics may deteriorate long before Garrus/Tali/Miranda grows old, Revan may have been over-aged by the Dark Side, etc. etc.

But since all of that is in the future, it may be determined solely by headcanon.

By that logic, the game can end before we face Loghian.

Because everything  that happens after can be easily determined by Headcanon.


If I were teh lead writer/designer, I'd make heroic story where the hero faces impossible challenges, win and wooes all the LI's he/she wants. The game would endwith a big celebration cutscene where the hero gets to wed his LI.

...

Then I'd bring up the Epilogue slide that sez the hero died of cancer a year after the wedding!!!

The anguish! The whining that would come! It would be...GLORIOUS.

[garrusfan1]

I agree but I wouldn't worry I think bioware learned there lesson.

[Lennard Testarossa]

M25105 wrote...
Why not? It seems kinda BS to not include both options, those that like to have the pretend "mature" endings can go ahead and whack their characters off while us that love the, what seems to be despised, happy endings can have that. I don't remember anyone really making a big fuss about DA: Origns other than Morrigan's baby.

If one ending is clearly better than all the others, not getting it equals failure. In principle, this isn't a problem, but it is if it is obvious how one can get the better ending. If one knows how to get the "best" ending, choosing not to get it is  to intentionally cripple one's efforts. If one can get a bittersweet ending only by crippling oneself intentionally, the sacrifices made are meaningless, as they are not the price to be paid for reaching a difficult goal, but rather the unnecessary consequence of intentional failure.

If the developers made good endings hard to get however, the entire "I want to be a hero!"-crowd will whine incessantly about how "heroism should matter" and how "consequences should be obvious and foreseeable, so I, the player, have agency and can feel empowered". As this is the very same crowd that demands happy endings, it is possible to include happy, bittersweet and bad endings in the same game, but not in a way that satisfies both those wanting a bittersweet and those wanting a happy ending.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 28 octobre 2012 - 03:12 .

[Pedrak]

One of the BG2 - TOB ending for your LI was not that different from what you suggest, Lotion...

[Pzykozis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Then I'd bring up the Epilogue slide that sez the hero died of cancer a year after the wedding!!!

The anguish! The whining that would come! It would be...GLORIOUS.

Not even... on the way out of the church or what have you you're still in control but you go down a flight of stairs and on the first step suddenly you trip fall down stairs and break your neck.

The End.

[Ridwan]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

M25105 wrote...
Why not? It seems kinda BS to not include both options, those that like to have the pretend "mature" endings can go ahead and whack their characters off while us that love the, what seems to be despised, happy endings can have that. I don't remember anyone really making a big fuss about DA: Origns other than Morrigan's baby.

If one ending is clearly better than all the others, not getting it equals failure. In principle, this isn't a problem, but it is if it is obvious how one can get the better ending. If one knows how to get the "best" ending, choosing not to get it is  to intentionally cripple one's efforts. If one can get a bittersweet ending only by crippling oneself intentionally, the sacrifices made are meaningless, as they are not the price to be paid for reaching a difficult goal, but rather the unnecessary consequence of intentional failure.

If the developers made good endings hard to get, however, the entire "I want to be a hero!"-crowd will whine incessantly about how "heroism should matter" and how "consequences should be obvious and foreseeable, so I, the player, have agency and can feel empowered". As this is the very same crowd that demands happy endings, it is possible to include happy, bittersweet and bad endings in the same game, but not in a way that satisfies both those wanting a bittersweet and those wanting a happy ending.

Happy endings makes me wanna replay a game though, a downer ending doesn't. Meaning I get more value for my money when I end up feeling awesome and like a boss and being victim to the pretrend "mature" writings.

[Lennard Testarossa]

M25105 wrote...
Happy endings makes me wanna replay a game though, a downer ending doesn't. Meaning I get more value for my money when I end up feeling awesome and like a boss and being victim to the pretrend "mature" writings.

I, for one, do not play games to "feel awesome". It is a matter of preference.

I merely pointed out that satisfying both of us is impossible here.

[Pedrak]

Incidentally, "bittersweet" ending does not necessarily imply "the hero dies".

An interesting bittersweet ending could have the hero forced to leave his country forever, maybe choosing whom of his companions he can bring with them. Or maybe sacrificing a friend to accomplish a goal.

For example, Alistair's sacrifice definitely seems like a bittersweet ending to me, because he was a friend and a good guy and, as a player, I had become fond of him (of Loghain, not so much).

The Dark Ritual ending is a good example of an ambiguous, open ending. It's neither sad nor completely happy, because it's implied the child might become a danger in the future.

The only DAO ending with a fully positive outcome to me is maybe Loghain's sacrifice, as it plays more like a redemption than as the death of a friend.

[Ridwan]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

M25105 wrote...
Happy endings makes me wanna replay a game though, a downer ending doesn't. Meaning I get more value for my money when I end up feeling awesome and like a boss and being victim to the pretrend "mature" writings.

I, for one, do not play games to "feel awesome". It is a matter of preference.

I merely pointed out that satisfying both of us is impossible here.

Then what do you play games for?

[Lennard Testarossa]

M25105 wrote...
Then what do you play games for?

1. For the exact same reason why one reads books or watches movies, only in games you can influence what happens, adding some extra appeal.
2. Gameplay.
3. To identify and sympathize with my mc.

[Ridwan]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

M25105 wrote...
Then what do you play games for?

1. For the exact same reason why one reads books or watches movies, only in games you can influence what happens, adding some extra appeal.
2. Gameplay.
3. To identify and sympathize with my mc.

So a game like Mario is for you not entertaining?

[Ozida]

To be honest, I will buy DA3 only after it's out for couple of weeks and I can YouTube or read the ending(s). I know it will ruin half the fun for me, but after ME3 madness I'd rather be prepared for a terrible ending in advance. If the game has a happy-ending, I will buy it right away. If it will have "bittersweet" only endings, I will consider other factors such as: players' reviews, graphics, gameplay, etc.

I do not mind getting sad from time to time. Sometimes I watch dramas and enjoy them. However, when I do watch a sad movie or read a sad book, I am aware that it will going to be sad. I am not seeing a comedy that turns "bittersweet" in the last 10 minutes, if you know what I mean. And good story doesn't necessarily has to end sad or philosophical. Sometimes a good story is just this: an epic battle, a sweet victory, a romantic bard's ballade. I do not want to be reminded by a fantasy RPG game how terrible the war is or how you have to sacrifice yourself in order to win. Sometimes I just want to win with this warm "Hell, yeah!" feeling inside of me.

Modifié par Ozida, 28 octobre 2012 - 04:22 .

[Il Divo]

M25105 wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

M25105 wrote...
Then what do you play games for?

1. For the exact same reason why one reads books or watches movies, only in games you can influence what happens, adding some extra appeal.
2. Gameplay.
3. To identify and sympathize with my mc.

So a game like Mario is for you not entertaining?

Did you somehow miss #2? There's no rule which says he can't enjoy Mario's gameplay.

[Pzykozis]

Il Divo wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

M25105 wrote...
Then what do you play games for?

1. For the exact same reason why one reads books or watches movies, only in games you can influence what happens, adding some extra appeal.
2. Gameplay.
3. To identify and sympathize with my mc.

So a game like Mario is for you not entertaining?

Did you somehow miss #2? There's no rule which says he can't enjoy Mario's gameplay.

Or you know #1 where it says for entertainment but games have an added bonus because of interactivity...?

[Ridwan]

Il Divo wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

M25105 wrote...
Then what do you play games for?

1. For the exact same reason why one reads books or watches movies, only in games you can influence what happens, adding some extra appeal.
2. Gameplay.
3. To identify and sympathize with my mc.

So a game like Mario is for you not entertaining?

Did you somehow miss #2? There's no rule which says he can't enjoy Mario's gameplay.

Not asking you dude.

[AlanC9]

M25105 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
1. For the exact same reason why one reads books or watches movies, only in games you can influence what happens, adding some extra appeal.
2. Gameplay.
3. To identify and sympathize with my mc.

So a game like Mario is for you not entertaining?

Did you somehow miss #2? There's no rule which says he can't enjoy Mario's gameplay.

Not asking you dude.

Doesn't mean he can't answer. Hell, maybe Lennard doesn't like Mario. Why are you even asking that, though?

[AlanC9]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

M25105 wrote...
Happy endings makes me wanna replay a game though, a downer ending doesn't. Meaning I get more value for my money when I end up feeling awesome and like a boss and being victim to the pretrend "mature" writings.

I, for one, do not play games to "feel awesome". It is a matter of preference.

I merely pointed out that satisfying both of us is impossible here.

This raises the question of what Bio should do. I can see a business case for satisfying M25105 rather than us, since people like him tend to get their feelings hurt more easily than we do. OTOH, developers do better when they actually have a creative vision rather than be all things to everyone, so they might want to simply write M25105 and company off.

[Ridwan]

You guys really don't like to be heroes in your games do you? Do you find it fun to replay a game where there's no happy ending other than "And they all died or something"?

[Iakus]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

M25105 wrote...
Why not? It seems kinda BS to not include both options, those that like to have the pretend "mature" endings can go ahead and whack their characters off while us that love the, what seems to be despised, happy endings can have that. I don't remember anyone really making a big fuss about DA: Origns other than Morrigan's baby.

If one ending is clearly better than all the others, not getting it equals failure. In principle, this isn't a problem, but it is if it is obvious how one can get the better ending. If one knows how to get the "best" ending, choosing not to get it is  to intentionally cripple one's efforts. If one can get a bittersweet ending only by crippling oneself intentionally, the sacrifices made are meaningless, as they are not the price to be paid for reaching a difficult goal, but rather the unnecessary consequence of intentional failure.

So is Redeemer clearly superior to Ultimate Sacrifice?  Or Knight-Commander?  I know some people who play female Wardens who romance Alistair absolutely hate Dark Promise.  Which ending is "the best"  

I'll answer:  Depends on who you ask and what Warden you're playing.

What defines bittersweet is different for different people.  You may think the death of the protagonist as bitterseet.  Others may think of it as depressing.  That's why I think if Bioware insists on going dark=deep, they will need to provide multiple possible outcomes, with multiple sacrifices in the hopes that there will be something palatable fro a wide range of audience.  They can't afford another "Pick a color and DIE!"

If the developers made good endings hard to get however, the entire "I want to be a hero!"-crowd will whine incessantly about how "heroism should matter" and how "consequences should be obvious and foreseeable, so I, the player, have agency and can feel empowered". As this is the very same crowd that demands happy endings, it is possible to include happy, bittersweet and bad endings in the same game, but not in a way that satisfies both those wanting a bittersweet and those wanting a happy ending.

Again, DAO can end with the Warden's funeral, or the Warden about to give a speech.  People seemed to like it.

As for "happy endings"  I prefer what Stephen King wrote in one of his Dark Tower books:


“And will I tell you that these three lived happily ever after? I will not, for no one ever does. But there was happiness. And they did live.”

[Pzykozis]

M25105 wrote...

You guys really don't like to be heroes in your games do you? Do you find it fun to replay a game where there's no happy ending other than "And they all died or something"?

On the contrary I love to the be the hero Edit (Ok more like anti-hero / mercenary / anti-villain). Heroes can be heroic and still lose.

Modifié par Pzykozis, 28 octobre 2012 - 05:25 .

[The Elder King]

I'd like if DA3 had well-made endings. I don't care much if they're happy or bittersweet or completely tragic (though my favourites are bittersweet, and I think DA writers are more likely to write the last two types than the first, but everything could happen).

[Il Divo]

M25105 wrote...

You guys really don't like to be heroes in your games do you? Do you find it fun to replay a game where there's no happy ending other than "And they all died or something"?

If it's a story well-told, then hell yes. I'm currently doing another playthrough of Dark Souls. I can't say there's anything in the game that constitutes conventional happiness. It's actually one of the most depressing settings I've encountered in a game.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 octobre 2012 - 05:34 .

[Ozida]

Humans are bunch of emos nowadays. I am living at the wrong times. 

Modifié par Ozida, 28 octobre 2012 - 05:37 .

[Ridwan]

If you guys play video games cause of the story I recommend you visit a library for a real story.