591 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

The greatest example was the quest with Hawke's mother.

When I first played it - there are two events where you can either encourage or discourage your mother from getting out there and dating. I believed that because I had encouraged her - that the Kirkwall killer had grabbed her.

I believed that it was my choices - all good intentions - that led to her demise.

That's completely different. You're making the choice based on imperfect knowledge and something bad can logically happen, that's fine.

Being provided a choice that says: "Choose this choice which condemns the setting to doom" or "Choose this choice which saves everyone" is not typically an interesting choice.


I like when choices that I think are good turn out to not be good after all. By the same token, I also like when choices that seem suboptimal end up working out better than expected. As long as it logically makes sense to me, I'm okay with it.

The epilogue for Orzammar is great for this.

Who CARES about the people who would have simply reloaded. LLet them. They paid good money - they should be able to craft a craftable story.

My opinion has nothing to do with save scumming.

If my in game character is told that there's 3 choices, and one of them is clearly superior to the rest, it's not much of a choice at all. Unless the game decides to throw a curveball and have that choice somehow backfire despite it's impression of being superior, it becomes obvious.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 28 octobre 2012 - 06:42 .

[Ozida]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

M25105 wrote...

You guys really don't like to be heroes in your games do you? Do you find it fun to replay a game where there's no happy ending other than "And they all died or something"?

Yes.  In many cases I find the heroism accented when sacrifice is made.

You are dead and everyone is saved.
You are alive and everyone is saved.
Which one would you choose?.. If hero's death is the only condition to achieving some peace... then it's a crappy hero if yiu ask me. 

[Allan Schumacher]

You are dead and everyone is saved.
You are alive and everyone is saved.
Which one would you choose?.. If hero's death is the only condition to achieving some peace... then it's a crappy hero if yiu ask me.

If I have the choice, of course I choose to stay alive and save everyone. It's hardly a choice at all. Why would my character ostensibly choose to suicide himself if he knows of a way to accomplish his objectives without doing so?

If the choice becomes:

Sacrifice yourself and everyone is saved
Sacrifice some others in order to save yourself

Then the choice becomes much more interesting.

[Zobo]

I personally hate it when in an RPG some kind of an ultimate sacrifice is forced on a player character. I'm usually role-playing as myself as far as possible and for me personally ultimate sacrifice is absolutely unacceptable. If you guys are going to shove it hard, please make sure we at least have one option not to do this even if that is a "coward" screw it all I'm out of here option.
Just in case. It's not like I think you are really going to shove it since DA franchise was pretty good in this regard so far, especially DAO.

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's not a matter of "choose the bad ending.  It's a matter of "choose your ending" the one that works based on how you have been playing out your character..

It is though.  I'm not going to pick a subpar ending if I have the choice right there to pick a better one.  I can rationalize making a tough choice that isn't necessarily ideal among other difficult choices.  If one of the choices is clearly better, it's sabotaging for my character to pick anything but that choice.  Especially if I'm playing a heroic character trying to save as many as I can.

I keep seeing this and I keep wondering where this is coming from.  Where is this "supbar ending"?  Where is this "better one"?  I'm not talking about better or worse.  I'm talking about different.  I'm talking about finding an ending you can live with.  About not having to pay the same price everyone else has to pay to fit some universal concept of "bittersweet".  Just because one person wants their protagoinist to have a viking funeral, why should mine suffer the same fate?  Maybe a different price would fit their story better.

Again I ask:  which DAO outcome is the subpar one?

[Medhia Nox]

@Allen Schumacher: I'm not sure I understand how what I'm saying doesn't apply.

I thought that - by encouraging her - I had doomed her. Isn't this a choice that seems "most optimal" - which "would" have turned out bad if there was any actual choice?

Every choice in an RPG game is truly made with "too little information" - games are simply not capable of providing even the sensory input of a tabletop RPG.

In Orzammar - I could have stayed there for weeks talking to the citizens - taking in even more of the temperature of people's opinions of Harrowmont and Bhelen... I could have spend weeks in the Shaperate reading about the two families - tons more stuff.

But even that ends up being an "uninformed decision".

I DO enjoy that it has unexpected results - but I don't see how it's different than my example. (Except that it's an actual choice - and in DA 2 - I'm failed to be given a choice)

Once I learn which king will be better (by going online and reading spoilers for example - if I were so inclined. Or, by finishing the game and making a more informed choice in my second playthru) - then I'm still "save scumming" in a way.

=====

I'm not sure you're approaching this in a "learning" mentality.

It seems to be that you're telling us that we're simply incapable of understanding truly interesting choices.

Your two choices ARE interesting - but I would suggest having.

- Sacrifice yourself and everyone is saved.

- Sacrifice some other and save yourself.

- Choose to sacrifice yourself - but through a series of previously made game choices - manage to survive.

- Choose to sacrifice others to save yourself - but through a series of previusly made choices - still die.

Would be a FAR better series of choices.

And barring "too many options" - I believe my additions are superior - because in them are already contained many more potential outcomes.

[Iakus]

Zobo wrote...

I personally hate it when in an RPG some kind of an ultimate sacrifice is forced on a player character. I'm usually role-playing as myself as far as possible and for me personally ultimate sacrifice is absolutely unacceptable. If you guys are going to shove it hard, please make sure we at least have one option not to do this even if that is a "coward" screw it all I'm out of here option.
Just in case. It's not like I think you are really going to shove it since DA franchise was pretty good in this regard so far, especially DAO.

Another thing I say  "Forced sacrifice isn't"

[barbara2012]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

You are dead and everyone is saved.
You are alive and everyone is saved.
Which one would you choose?.. If hero's death is the only condition to achieving some peace... then it's a crappy hero if yiu ask me.

If I have the choice, of course I choose to stay alive and save everyone. It's hardly a choice at all. Why would my character ostensibly choose to suicide himself if he knows of a way to accomplish his objectives without doing so?

If the choice becomes:

Sacrifice yourself and everyone is saved
Sacrifice some others in order to save yourself

Then the choice becomes much more interesting.

 
do you really think so?

[grimkillah]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
The epilogue for Orzammar is great for this.

I still believe that Harrowmount is the right choice, Bhelen is pure evil. End never justify the means.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Pzykozis wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Then I'd bring up the Epilogue slide that sez the hero died of cancer a year after the wedding!!!

The anguish! The whining that would come! It would be...GLORIOUS.

Not even... on the way out of the church or what have you you're still in control but you go down a flight of stairs and on the first step suddenly you trip fall down stairs and break your neck.

The End.

Even better. You Sir have talent!

[barbara2012]

the last post (lotion and Pzykozis) show me that this interesting topic is finish to me. Here are the sick trollers in action ZZZZzzzzz

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's not a matter of "choose the bad ending.  It's a matter of "choose your ending" the one that works based on how you have been playing out your character..

It is though.  I'm not going to pick a subpar ending if I have the choice right there to pick a better one.  I can rationalize making a tough choice that isn't necessarily ideal among other difficult choices.  If one of the choices is clearly better, it's sabotaging for my character to pick anything but that choice.  Especially if I'm playing a heroic character trying to save as many as I can.

I keep seeing this and I keep wondering where this is coming from.  Where is this "supbar ending"?  Where is this "better one"?  I'm not talking about better or worse.  I'm talking about different.  I'm talking about finding an ending you can live with.  About not having to pay the same price everyone else has to pay to fit some universal concept of "bittersweet".  Just because one person wants their protagoinist to have a viking funeral, why should mine suffer the same fate?  Maybe a different price would fit their story better.

Again I ask:  which DAO outcome is the subpar one?

I thought we agreed several pages back that the Dark Ritual is the clearly superior choice, due to the lack of consequences?

What we know: everyone survives to live out their lives in happiness.
What we don't know: the consequences of the God child, which should be the compensating factor.

But since there isn't enough faith in the import concept to make this work, we're left only with the good side of the dark ritual. It fails to properly portray just how questionable what the player is doing actually is. Instead of an actual "dark ritual", the game opted in favor of some awkward sex with Morrigan.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...
I thought we agreed several pages back that the Dark Ritual is the clearly superior choice, due to the lack of consequences?

What we know: everyone survives to live out their lives in happiness.
What we don't know: the consequences of the God child, which should be the compensating factor.

But since there isn't enough faith in the import concept to make this work, we're left only with the good side of the dark ritual. It fails to properly portray just how questionable what the player is doing actually is. Instead of an actual "dark ritual", the game opted in favor of some awkward sex with Morrigan.

I believe we agree that the Dark Ritual was sort of an odd duck in that the consequences are not immediately apparant.  I definitely agree that we should have seen more of what those consequences would entail (for myself, unleashing a Tevinter Old God on Thedas, even one free of the darkspawn taint, is not likely to be a Good Thing overall)  That said, however, the Dark Ritual is in a nebulous in-between place concerning consequences.

Personally, my "clearly superior" choice is Redeemer, even if it costs the friendship of two of my closest companions (Alistair and Morrigan)  And the fun part is, others can disagree.  And they'd be right to, since "clearly superior" means different chocies and different outcomes for different people.

But then, my question here was not "which ending is best" but "which ending is clearly subpar"? 

[Kileyan]

This is a very strange discussion, especially when Bioware speaks up. The gist I am getting is good endings cannot be done, because the happy good ending would be, by far the most popular ending chosen, and no one would choose other endings where you, your friends or your love interest are killed.

So the appropriate thing to do when an ending is so popular among your customers, is to remove that ending that they will have to choose the endings that they like much less so.

Really I get it, some stories can't be told properly without sacrifices and whatnot. I thing is, these are games where people expect a bit of control. Bioware really needs to decide whether they are making games or books to cutscene conversions. Well, at least decide which end of the scale they are going to weight the most.

Modifié par Kileyan, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:08 .

[Zobo]

I thought we agreed several pages back that the Dark Ritual is the clearly superior choice, due to the lack of consequences?

What we know: everyone survives to live out their lives in happiness.
What we don't know: the consequences of the God child, which should be the compensating factor.

But since there isn't enough faith in the import concept to make this work, we're left only with the good side of the dark ritual. It fails to properly portray just how questionable what the player is doing actually is. Instead of an actual "dark ritual", the game opted in favor of some awkward sex with Morrigan.

But you are clearly metagaming, involving arguments like the import concept into this discussion etc.
I never did the Dark Ritual even through Morrigan was actually my LI and I kinda trusted her. She told me she is going to leave me after the ritual, I've got mad at her for dumping me like that, shouted at her and told her to F off. She left the group and like this my best friend Alistair had to die in the end because it's better him than me. Then in Witch Hunt I reconciled with Morrigan and together we went through the mirror. So Alistair kinda died for nothing, right? Yet still I will not trade my story for a "better" one, because it is my story and it makes perfect sense for me unlike trying to metagame some "optimal" chain of solutions.

Modifié par Zobo, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:11 .

[WhiteThunder]

scyphozoa wrote...

I personally am sort of shocked by all the people saying they want to be able to save everyone and live and effectively have no negative consequences or sacrifice. For the past 10+ years of playing games with choices, all I've heard is, "No more black and white morality, no more absolute good and evil, we want grey!"

Now, the players get grey morality and it turns out they don't like it. They really just want white and black morality with a happy ending.

Again, it's funny that people think that most of the outcry against the Mass Effect endings is because they're "dark" or "edgy."  They aren't.  They're just really, really poorly written with no thematic relevance to the series as a whole,

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

I believe we agree that the Dark Ritual was sort of an odd duck in that the consequences are not immediately apparant.  I definitely agree that we should have seen more of what those consequences would entail (for myself, unleashing a Tevinter Old God on Thedas, even one free of the darkspawn taint, is not likely to be a Good Thing overall)  That said, however, the Dark Ritual is in a nebulous in-between place concerning consequences.

Personally, my "clearly superior" choice is Redeemer, even if it costs the friendship of two of my closest companions (Alistair and Morrigan)  And the fun part is, others can disagree.  And they'd be right to, since "clearly superior" means different chocies and different outcomes for different people.

But then, my question here was not "which ending is best" but "which ending is clearly subpar"? 

To an extent, yes. But if I can get away with all the positive aspects of an ending, which are clearly shown in game, and only have to worry about the questionable and ill-potrayed negatives in my imaginary fantasy, the game has probably screwed up. 

Hence why I don't believe DA:O handled this correctly. Virmire also offered different choices, between Ashley and Kaidan. I always choose Ashley, but I don't consider that a clearly superior choice, because I realize someone may prefer Kaidan. The Dark Ritual is different: there isn't a tangible consequence period. The problem isn't everyone having a preference. That's fine. The problem is the game portraying the negative as utterly non-existent. The player, either as the Warden or Hawke or the next PC, never has to deal with any consequences. 

A brief list:

Ultimate sacrifice: You die, which we see. Sacrifice Morrigan's friendship.
Alistair dies, which we see, also sacrifice Morrigan's friendship.
Loghain dies, sacrifce Alistair's and Morrigan's friendship.
Dark Ritual, something happens, the nature of which we don't know and which we're never likely to see at any point in a DA game. Or see it handled well, at any rate.

Remove the Dark Ritual from the equation and DA:O would quite well fit into what you're describing. Everyone picks their poison and is met with an appropriate end, ups and downs, with no loose ties to deal with. As per the Mass Effect 3 complaints, the player has the option to kill their PC or keep him alive. There's variety and choices. But making the dark ritual optional is the worst thing that could have happened in terms of giving it significance, assuming Bioware is sincere about the import function. And if the Dark Ritual has no significance, it's just headcanon.  
  

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:21 .

[Iakus]

scyphozoa wrote...

I personally am sort of shocked by all the people saying they want to be able to save everyone and live and effectively have no negative consequences or sacrifice. For the past 10+ years of playing games with choices, all I've heard is, "No more black and white morality, no more absolute good and evil, we want grey!"

Now, the players get grey morality and it turns out they don't like it. They really just want white and black morality with a happy ending.

You're greatly oversimplifying things.  What we want is an array of possible outcomes from these morally gray choices we're given.  Not just "pick a color and DIE!"  We want a chance at an upbeat ending, which is far different from "save everybody"

[Il Divo]

Zobo wrote...

But you are clearly metagaming, involving arguments like the import concept into this discussion etc.
I never did the Dark Ritual even through Morrigan was actually my LI and I kinda trusted her. She told me she is going to leave me after the ritual, I've got mad at her for dumping me like that, shouted at her and told her to F off. She left the group and like this my best friend Alistair had to die in the end because it's better him than me. Then in Witch Hunt I reconciled with Morrigan and together we went through the mirror. So Alistair kinda died for nothing, right? Yet still I will not trade my story for a "better" one, because it is my story and it makes perfect sense for me unlike trying to metagame some "optimal" chain of solutions.

I don't see that as a problem.

I'm a character and a player, simultaneously viewing the game through the PC's eyes and my own. As a character, any option can seem viable. As a player, I know the variables and purposely choosing negative ones when it's usually clear what the optimal path is doesn't  work. It's like all the characters in a Shakespearean tragedy knowing the solution to a happy ending, but choosing to screw up anyway. It would feel artificial and lame.

I'm not talking about DA:O through the eyes of the character, but as the player. Metagaming isn't a relevant factor.

[Il Divo]

scyphozoa wrote...

iakus wrote...
You're greatly oversimplifying things.  What we want is an array of possible outcomes from these morally gray choices we're given.  Not just "pick a color and DIE!"  We want a chance at an upbeat ending, which is far different from "save everybody"

To be fair, you're right, I am making some simplifications, but the general argument for choices and morality is that they shouldn't be stark white and black, heroic and villainous. They should be grey and reflect the real spectrum of human morality.

Now as others have said, the option of grey becomes less relevant, or entirely irrelevant if you also give the player a bright white happy ending as an alternative to having to make a sacrifice or make a grey choice. The point of grey is to force the player to think, to force the player to do something they are not comfortable with. That is why the Geth destroy/rewrite choice is one of the best Bioware has ever done. Because even though rewriting Geth keeps them alive, it comes at the cost of having to brainwash them into peace. If there had been a third option to "save geth without rewriting" then the original choice wouldn't be as meaningful or thought-provoking. Because the game made me choose something I was not comfortable and made me think, it was one of the best choices ever made. 

Spot on. Gaming has the potential to really bring to life thought experiments, like the Geth rewrite issue. I'd love to see more of that expanded on. More of Legion's loyalty mission, less of the suicide mission.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:32 .

[Darth Krytie]

Filament wrote...

I think the notion of there being a dichotomy between the 'happy ending lovers' and the 'downer ending lovers' is a little suspicious. I think most people proclaiming a great principled stance in favor of one or the other would probably be happy either way as long as the ending makes sense given the circumstances and is satisfying. There are games with happy endings that are widely acclaimed and games with downer endings that are widely acclaimed.

Conveniently what Im assuming about everyone else coincides with the way I feel about it, because I am a pillar of reason so of course everyone should agree with me.

You have a point. I think a satisfactory ending is most important and whether it's happy or bittersweet or downright depressing matters less in the long run. If the end is just deus ex machina happy or pointlessly sad, and thus is unsatisfactory, then it would appeal a lot less to the group that prefers one over the other.

[Allan Schumacher]

iakus wrote...

I keep seeing this and I keep wondering where this is coming from.  Where is this "supbar ending"?  Where is this "better one"?

It's come up several times in this thread.  One example I can think of off the top of my head is the idea that some fans had that there should have been a way to defeat the reapers without requiring the Crucible.

I'm not talking about better or worse.  I'm talking about different.  I'm talking about finding an ending you can live with.  About not having to pay the same price everyone else has to pay to fit some universal concept of "bittersweet".  Just because one person wants their protagoinist to have a viking funeral, why should mine suffer the same fate?  Maybe a different price would fit their story better.

I like choice in games.  But I'm not a fan of "the narrative goes specifically the way that I want to all the time."  Sometimes, the character is in a spot that just isn't ideal.  Putting me into a spot where I can always perfectly solve the problem at no cost aside from time (because spending time in a game you enjoy is typically not a cost...) works sometimes, but sometimes it's just not possible either and your character is going to need to persevere through that.

Again I ask:  which DAO outcome is the subpar one?

All of the outcomes at Redcliffe barring using the circle.  The only saving grace of it is that it's written in a way that players may choose something else because they believe that going to the circle will have an actual consequence.