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[Lotion Soronarr]

hhh89 wrote...
 The only reason I was able to make a choice in DA2 was because the Circle was "innocent", since Anders acted alone and the Circe was never involved with Anders.

Which may or may nto be true. All we have is Anderses word that he did it alone.

And annuling the Circle actually makes sense given the rampant blood magic. Blowing the Chantry up is not the real reason. It was just the final straw.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
It was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Those don't count. And even at the end, the most he was guilty of was despair, as opposed to Meredith's bigotry/bloodlust (reflected by most other templars, really).

Oh please!
Orsino was putting up a nice fascade, but where do you think he learendthat high-level blood magic?
He was guilty. Guilty of learning and fostering blood magic. Guilty of helping a crazed murderer.

And you can't just handwave away every bad mage act.
Self-fulfilling prophecy? Well then, then I say anything templars do doesn't count either. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Pedrak]

Speaking of bittersweet and DA3, for example, the following (completely hypothetical) ideas could work for me.

You have two choices, each with two different outcomes:

CHOICE ONE: You support Mages or Templars and have one of the two groups prevail. In the first case, Mages get their freedom, but Blood Magic runs rampant and takes its toll in human lives. In the second, Templars strenghten their control on Mages, who become even more subdued and prisoners - many rites of annulments are practiced throughout the world.

CHOICE TWO: You can either sacrifice yourself or another important party member, maybe more than one.

So, you can have four different outcomes:

- You save yourself, Mages prevail
- You save yourself, Templars prevail
- You save your companion(s), Mages prevail
- You save your companion(s), Templars prevail

On the other hand, if you get the "golden" alternative to find a peace between the two factions or to save yourself AND your companion, the other alternatives basically become non-standard gameovers - the sub-optimal outcomes are not even choices, they are failures.

Modifié par Pedrak, 29 octobre 2012 - 01:17 .

[The Elder King]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
 The only reason I was able to make a choice in DA2 was because the Circle was "innocent", since Anders acted alone and the Circe was never involved with Anders.

Which may or may nto be true. All we have is Anderses word that he did it alone.

And annuling the Circle actually makes sense given the rampant blood magic. Blowing the Chantry up is not the real reason. It was just the final straw.

We have Orsino which is shocked by Ander's action, that try to settle things peacefully with Meredith after you picked the mage's side. And Anders was genuinely disgusted by Orsino's stance. Now, all of this could be an act, but for the info we have, I'd say it's unlikely.
About annulling the Circle, there were no proof that mages who wanted to stay in the Circle used blood magic. All the mages who used it up to the picking side option were already apostates (I don't remember what Grace wanted in Act 3, but she and her group already escaped once from the Starkhaven's Circle and their leader was a blood mage. Templars should investigate better mages in order to know if they're blood mages or not). At that point, Hawke couldn't know that the Circle was packed with blood mages and Orsino's involvment with Quentin's research.
Anyway, I'm not saying that siding with the templars in DA2 is objectively wrong. Both sided presented their worst part in DA2. If the templars and the mages in DA3 will have the same rapresentation they had in DA2, I'll be greatly disappointed. If the "pick side" option was presented in another moment in the game before Ander's actions, I wouldn't be able to take a choice (at least in my "canon" playthrough, in which I create a PC where the choices are made by following my opinions. I could easily create a pro-mage Hawke or a pro-templar Hawke with a different mindset than mine). The fact that the Circle was "innocent" (again, with the info we had) is the only reason I sided with the mages. But I don't think it's the "right" option. Neither were. And the outcomes of the choices, with both Orsino and Meredith going insane, was one of the things I detested more in DA2.

Modifié par hhh89, 29 octobre 2012 - 01:30 .

[Dave of Canada]

Drive-by post as I'm in the middle of class.

Ghidorah14 wrote...

That's why I love DAO's endings.

DAO had no happy ending. For all we know, Dark Ritual might lead to the worst one.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 octobre 2012 - 02:55 .

[Vandicus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Drive-by post as I'm in the middle of class.

Ghidorah14 wrote...

That's why I love DAO's endings.

DAO had no happy ending. For all we know, Dark Ritual might lead to the worst one.

There will be so much forum rage if they do that.

Honestly, I think they'll just ignore or trivialize the decision. Make it harmful to Thedas and all the Dark Ritualers will QQ, make it beneficial or neutral to Thedas, and all the Ultimate Sacrificers will QQ. The only way to win the game is not to play(in other words not write something related to the decision).

[The Elder King]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Drive-by post as I'm in the middle of class.

Ghidorah14 wrote...

That's why I love DAO's endings.

DAO had no happy ending. For all we know, Dark Ritual might lead to the worst one.

I agree with you, though a lot of people don't think about the consequences of leaving Urthemiel alive. We don't know what Morrigan's and Flemeth's plan about him (and we don't know if their plans are different or the same), and we don't know what the OGB will do after he grows up. We don't know if Urthemiel was good or bad to begin with.

[Vandicus]

hhh89 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Drive-by post as I'm in the middle of class.

Ghidorah14 wrote...

That's why I love DAO's endings.

DAO had no happy ending. For all we know, Dark Ritual might lead to the worst one.

I agree with you, though a lot of people don't think about the consequences of leaving Urthemiel alive. We don't know what Morrigan's and Flemeth's plan about him (and we don't know if their plans are different or the same), and we don't know what the OGB will do after he grows up. We don't know if Urthemiel was good or bad to begin with.

Well if he was anything like Dumat, I think we can imagine what kind of person he is.

[The Elder King]

Vandicus wrote...



There will be so much forum rage if they do that.

Honestly, I think they'll just ignore or trivialize the decision. Make it harmful to Thedas and all the Dark Ritualers will QQ, make it beneficial or neutral to Thedas, and all the Ultimate Sacrificers will QQ. The only way to win the game is not to play(in other words not write something related to the decision).

Why? Because Urthemiel couldn't be next Big Bad? His powers and alignment are unknown.
About the rest of the post, I agree that it's almost impossible to make DR having a relevant role in the game without canonizing it.
The point is, if in the future Bioware will make a game where the DR is canon and Urthemiel is the big evil in the game, the decision of choosing the DR in DAO (although completely pointless since you can't change the fate of Thedas in this case) will be worse for Thedas than US.

[The Elder King]

Vandicus wrote...



Well if he was anything like Dumat, I think we can imagine what kind of person he is.

I didn't play Legacy, but is there that much info about Dumat? Legacy is the only attendible source of Dumat, since the rest of the info in the previous games could be all legends. How much Corypheus said about Dumat?
Though we can't know how much similar or different Urthemiel is from Dumat. That's the reason why doing the DR could lead potentially to problems. The DR frees Urthemiel only from the taint.

[Pedrak]

Vandicus wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Drive-by post as I'm in the middle of class.

Ghidorah14 wrote...

That's why I love DAO's endings.

DAO had no happy ending. For all we know, Dark Ritual might lead to the worst one.

There will be so much forum rage if they do that.

Honestly, I think they'll just ignore or trivialize the decision. Make it harmful to Thedas and all the Dark Ritualers will QQ, make it beneficial or neutral to Thedas, and all the Ultimate Sacrificers will QQ. The only way to win the game is not to play(in other words not write something related to the decision).

They could also have different outcomes which are not clearly comparable, and do not allow to say that one is objectively better than the other. Ex. performing the Dark Ritual, through a chain of events, causes the destruction of a certain group/city/character in DA3, while NOT performing it has a similar effect to other people/places. Say, Morrigan's son destroys a group of  Templars and helps some Mages (because she raised him to hate the Chantry, or whatever), while his absence has the opposite effect.

I doubt it will have a MAJOR influence on the main plot, because it would require too much time to make it work for players who performed the DR and for those who didn't, but a relevant sidequest might be influenced by it.

Modifié par Pedrak, 29 octobre 2012 - 03:14 .

[Nerevar-as]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Drive-by post as I'm in the middle of class.

Ghidorah14 wrote...

That's why I love DAO's endings.

DAO had no happy ending. For all we know, Dark Ritual might lead to the worst one.

Considering the ME cop-outs, I doubt it, unless it´s as an ending slide. They wouldn´t want new players missing anything significant.

Without metagaming, well, I think it was worth a shot. I don´t consider the Chantry a reliable source about the Old Gods (the Maker would be quite a jerkass too by their religion, but hey, it´s our God so it´s ok whenever it screws the world), and if OGB turns out to be evil then I doubt it can be harder to deal with than in AD incarnation. I´d also like having the GW go with Morrigan to influence the OGB.

[Vestua]

Dragon age wasbittersweet in origins considering the player can die in origins in order to save the world.

[Iakus]

hhh89 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...



Well if he was anything like Dumat, I think we can imagine what kind of person he is.

I didn't play Legacy, but is there that much info about Dumat? Legacy is the only attendible source of Dumat, since the rest of the info in the previous games could be all legends. How much Corypheus said about Dumat?
Though we can't know how much similar or different Urthemiel is from Dumat. That's the reason why doing the DR could lead potentially to problems. The DR frees Urthemiel only from the taint.

According to Corypheus, Dumat was the one who sent the magisters to storm the Golden City, arguably starting this whole darkspawn mess.  Though it's unknown if Dumat knew the city was already Blackened, or even if Dumat was an imposter..

[Super.Sid]

Whatever happens, it should not be a killswitch.

Modifié par Super.Sid, 29 octobre 2012 - 03:56 .

[General User]

Side bar: if it's true that Dumat, Urthemiel and the rest of the Old Gods were actual high dragons (or they were beings enough like high dragons as makes no difference), then they would all have been female.

[The Elder King]

iakus wrote...


According to Corypheus, Dumat was the one who sent the magisters to storm the Golden City, arguably starting this whole darkspawn mess.  Though it's unknown if Dumat knew the city was already Blackened, or even if Dumat was an imposter..

Thanks. So we don't know if Dumat was really evil (or it the one who talked with the magisters was Dumat).

[Iosev]

I thought that the endings in Dragon Age: Origins were handled nicely, particularly in that none of the endings were objectively superior than others (i.e., there was no "perfect" ending). Some people prefer making the Ultimate Sacrifice, while others prefer the Dark Ritual, and yet others prefer to have Alistair or Loghain sacrifice themselves.

I'm personally against having an ending that is clearly superior to the other endings, because it encourages people to strive for that optimal ending, rather than ending their game based on their personal views. For example, I wasn't a big fan of how Mass Effect 2 ended, particularly in how the player had the ability to save his or her entire crew if you completed the loyalty missions and upgrades.

Modifié par arcelonious, 29 octobre 2012 - 04:16 .

[Iakus]

hhh89 wrote...

iakus wrote...


According to Corypheus, Dumat was the one who sent the magisters to storm the Golden City, arguably starting this whole darkspawn mess.  Though it's unknown if Dumat knew the city was already Blackened, or even if Dumat was an imposter..

Thanks. So we don't know if Dumat was really evil (or it the one who talked with the magisters was Dumat).

According to legend, Dumat was the one who taught the magisters blood magic, so I doubt many would consider him "good"

Corypheus certainly thought he was communicating with Dumat, though I believe it was through dreams or visions.  Which makes sense if teh Old Gods are trapped/slumbering beneath the earth

[AlanC9]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Considering the ME cop-outs, I doubt it, unless it´s as an ending slide. They wouldn´t want new players missing anything significant.

If they were going to do this right,, it'd have to be with a canon ending. I'm OK with that in RPG series, but that just isn't the way DA is.

[Nerevar-as]

General User wrote...

Side bar: if it's true that Dumat, Urthemiel and the rest of the Old Gods were actual high dragons (or they were beings enough like high dragons as makes no difference), then they would all have been female.

Because of that I was actually expecting the OGB to be a girl and was a bit surprised when Morrigan said it was a boy.

[General User]

Nerevar-as wrote...

General User wrote...

Side bar: if it's true that Dumat, Urthemiel and the rest of the Old Gods were actual high dragons (or they were beings enough like high dragons as makes no difference), then they would all have been female.

Because of that I was actually expecting the OGB to be a girl and was a bit surprised when Morrigan said it was a boy.

Oh snap!  I must have missed that.  At the end of Witch Hunt, right?