David7204 wrote...
I've read a lot. And people sure have posted that remark a lot. I'm sure you can list off some examples for me?
Nerevar-as wrote...
The tone of ME, ME2 and ME3 until the beam shoots is more for blue babies than new galactic dark age as best possible outcome. It goes both ways, I doubt anyone would be happy if ASoF&I ends with the big everybody still alive happy, new era of everlasting peace and so on. The ending must match the tone of the story so far, but with the obsession some creators have to make the end memorable they seem to forget and forsake that to create a cheap emotional impact that will get fans angry, sad and wanting to forget they ever liked that show/game/whatever.
Modifié par Bernhardtbr, 29 octobre 2012 - 09:42 .
Nerevar-as wrote...
The tone of ME, ME2 and ME3 until the beam shoots is more for blue babies than new galactic dark age as best possible outcome. It goes both ways, I doubt anyone would be happy if ASoF&I ends with the big everybody still alive happy, new era of everlasting peace and so on. The ending must match the tone of the story so far, but with the obsession some creators have to make the end memorable they seem to forget and forsake that to create a cheap emotional impact that will get fans angry, sad and wanting to forget they ever liked that show/game/whatever.
zsom wrote...
Nerevar-as wrote...
The tone of ME, ME2 and ME3 until the beam shoots is more for blue babies than new galactic dark age as best possible outcome. It goes both ways, I doubt anyone would be happy if ASoF&I ends with the big everybody still alive happy, new era of everlasting peace and so on. The ending must match the tone of the story so far, but with the obsession some creators have to make the end memorable they seem to forget and forsake that to create a cheap emotional impact that will get fans angry, sad and wanting to forget they ever liked that show/game/whatever.
In ME yes, I agree, in ME2 not so sure maybe, but in ME3 absolutely not. During the entire game you are being beaten by the reapers, you are running away from them and helping your allies evacuate more effectively. By the time priority earth starts almost all the galaxy and virtually every major world we know of has fallen, those odds are not in your favor. But if that doesn't convince you think of the last battles, only in ME3 does Shepard show uncertainty. In ME2 he was ready to chew up the collectors and spit them out, in ME3 he needs pep talk from Joker. I think the tragic end was hinted at rather well.
But again this is a bit off topic. To take your point further a bit, do you think ASoF&I would lack heroism if John and Daenerys don't end up ruling all of Westeros in peace after an epic battle with the wrights but only after they killed every other psychopath (of which there are a lot since the last book...)
Vicious wrote...
About the rest of the post, I agree that it's almost impossible to make DR having a relevant role in the game without canonizing it.
This has been taken care of. Morrigan has stated that the DR was unneeded for her designs.
Vandicus wrote...
So the DR has been canonized as irrelevant. Since Morrigan doesn't need it for her plans the choice doesn't really matter.
Vandicus wrote...
Nerevar-as wrote...
The tone of ME, ME2 and ME3 until the beam shoots is more for blue babies than new galactic dark age as best possible outcome. It goes both ways, I doubt anyone would be happy if ASoF&I ends with the big everybody still alive happy, new era of everlasting peace and so on. The ending must match the tone of the story so far, but with the obsession some creators have to make the end memorable they seem to forget and forsake that to create a cheap emotional impact that will get fans angry, sad and wanting to forget they ever liked that show/game/whatever.
Errr, there's no galactic dark age for any of the endings(excepting the, have negligible war assets and choose destroy or something). This was unclear based on what happened with the last Mass Effect Relay that blew up, but EC makes it clear that none of the choices destroy galactic civilization.
The overarching tone of the ME series was actually Lovecraftian. ME1 is a fairly classic tale of "Only delaying the inevitable", and ME2 recycles the same formula. To add on top of that, Shepard plays the role of the Cassandra or Only Sane Man, and the rest of the galaxy pretty much refuses to listen to him or help stop their doom. Shepard failing, or at least dying doesn't in any way contrast the general tone of the narrative.
Maclimes wrote...
Vandicus wrote...
So the DR has been canonized as irrelevant. Since Morrigan doesn't need it for her plans the choice doesn't really matter.
Ferelden gets a leader no matter who you choose. Could be Anora, could be Alistair, could be both, could be Anora + Cousland... but either way, Ferelden has a monarch again.
That doesn't make the choice irrelevant.
Maclimes wrote...
Vandicus wrote...
So the DR has been canonized as irrelevant. Since Morrigan doesn't need it for her plans the choice doesn't really matter.
Ferelden gets a leader no matter who you choose. Could be Anora, could be Alistair, could be both, could be Anora + Cousland... but either way, Ferelden has a monarch again.
That doesn't make the choice irrelevant.
Vandicus wrote...
Maclimes wrote...
Vandicus wrote...
So the DR has been canonized as irrelevant. Since Morrigan doesn't need it for her plans the choice doesn't really matter.
Ferelden gets a leader no matter who you choose. Could be Anora, could be Alistair, could be both, could be Anora + Cousland... but either way, Ferelden has a monarch again.
That doesn't make the choice irrelevant.
Talking in the context of the decision affecting future installments. The base question was whether the DR choice would come up in a big way. Since its been canonized as not affecting Morrigan's plans, the choice more or less will not affect the plot in a huge way.
It also depends on the standards of what is relevant or not. A lot of ME players(the guys saying choice didn't matter in ME3) would say that a choice between the various rulers doesn't matter(as they maintain the choice regarding the rachni and genophage don't matter).
Maclimes wrote...
Vandicus wrote...
Maclimes wrote...
Vandicus wrote...
So the DR has been canonized as irrelevant. Since Morrigan doesn't need it for her plans the choice doesn't really matter.
Ferelden gets a leader no matter who you choose. Could be Anora, could be Alistair, could be both, could be Anora + Cousland... but either way, Ferelden has a monarch again.
That doesn't make the choice irrelevant.
Talking in the context of the decision affecting future installments. The base question was whether the DR choice would come up in a big way. Since its been canonized as not affecting Morrigan's plans, the choice more or less will not affect the plot in a huge way.
It also depends on the standards of what is relevant or not. A lot of ME players(the guys saying choice didn't matter in ME3) would say that a choice between the various rulers doesn't matter(as they maintain the choice regarding the rachni and genophage don't matter).
I suppose what it comes down to is your definition of "irrelevant". In some sense, ALL decisions made in DA:O were irrelevant, since DA2 transpires the near-exact same way no matter what you did (with only minor, cosmetic differences).
And once your discussion on BSN gets to the point of defining something, it's over.
NomadDC wrote...
So I hope there will be same thing with DAIII:I, not like with "game_that_must_not_be_named_here", where all endings are same
Modifié par Bernhardtbr, 29 octobre 2012 - 10:09 .
Bernhardtbr wrote...
Honeslty I think everyone should calm down and see what Bioware pretends. We don´t know if they planned DA to be games with continuity or not. TES has 5 games and very little continuity between them ( no save game importing for example), just because it´s Dragon Age 3 doesn´t mean it´s like Mass Effect 3.
Vandicus wrote...
NomadDC wrote...
So I hope there will be same thing with DAIII:I, not like with "game_that_must_not_be_named_here", where all endings are same
So if the variations on companion deaths and the Warden dying or living is significant enough to constitute a different ending for DA:O, why is that considered the same ending for ME3?
Nerevar-as wrote...
zsom wrote...
Nerevar-as wrote...
The tone of ME, ME2 and ME3 until the beam shoots is more for blue babies than new galactic dark age as best possible outcome. It goes both ways, I doubt anyone would be happy if ASoF&I ends with the big everybody still alive happy, new era of everlasting peace and so on. The ending must match the tone of the story so far, but with the obsession some creators have to make the end memorable they seem to forget and forsake that to create a cheap emotional impact that will get fans angry, sad and wanting to forget they ever liked that show/game/whatever.
In ME yes, I agree, in ME2 not so sure maybe, but in ME3 absolutely not. During the entire game you are being beaten by the reapers, you are running away from them and helping your allies evacuate more effectively. By the time priority earth starts almost all the galaxy and virtually every major world we know of has fallen, those odds are not in your favor. But if that doesn't convince you think of the last battles, only in ME3 does Shepard show uncertainty. In ME2 he was ready to chew up the collectors and spit them out, in ME3 he needs pep talk from Joker. I think the tragic end was hinted at rather well.
But again this is a bit off topic. To take your point further a bit, do you think ASoF&I would lack heroism if John and Daenerys don't end up ruling all of Westeros in peace after an epic battle with the wrights but only after they killed every other psychopath (of which there are a lot since the last book...)
I cured the Genophage. I made peace between Geth & Quarians (and the former were trying to genocide the latter 5 minutes earlier). Balak gave me the surviving Batarian ships. The Krogan fought for the Turians. Everybody but that frakking Dalatrass put their animosities aside and followed me to defeat the Reapers. So IMHO, ME3 qualifies even more than ME & ME2 in overcoming impossible conflicts and threats and hope prevailing in dark times. Then the Diabolus Ex Machina happens and the galaxy goes to hell (at least the EC fixed that), Shepard dies for the sake of it in most of the endings, and there´s no emotinal pay-off or closure for a character we´ve been following for 100+ hours. It´s like RotJ ending the moment the Death Star blows or LotR when the ring falls in Mount Doom. That´s not bittersweet, that´s full Downer Ending.
David7204 wrote...
"He is the hero, he is everything."
Hypothetically, what if the Chantry ending was bittersweet and the mage ending was happy, at least for those who liked mages? You'd consider the mage ending inferior regardless so wouldn't feel as though you were handicapping yourself by picking the templar ending and would still get to enjoy that, and most of the people who want a happy ending seem to prefer the mage side, just as the ones who want a bittersweet one prefer the templar side, so everything'll work out.Dave of Canada wrote...
This is frustrating me as someone who loves bittersweet endings, you have to stop using Mass Effect 3's ending as standard for bittersweet and being so traumatized by it. It was poorly written, it has little to do with the actual content of said ending.
Here's a minor list off the top of my head of bittersweet endings to compare with:
GTA4, Silent Hill series, Shadow of the Colossus, LA Noire, Max Payne 2 (didn't play 1 or 3), Shadow of the Colossus, Dragon Age: Origins, most Final Fantasy games and spinoffs, Planescape: Torment, Warcraft RTS series, Diablo 1 and 2, Starcraft 1, Metal Gear Solid series, Half Life series, The Darkness games, BioShock 2, Red Dead Redemption, NiER, Batman: Arkham City, God of War games.
Most of these are critically acclaimed and praised for their stories, you don't hear "BITTERSWEET SUCKS" every five seconds when there's discussion about these games and their stories, you hear about how the endings really touched the player and impacted them.
The only difference is that badly written happy endings are tolerated because the player still feels warm and fuzzy, dismissing everything else about it because it caters to their "feel good" side. Look at half the people who's biggest complaint for ME3's ending was they can't have "blue babies" with Liara but then praised the EC when it implied they'd meet again.
Xilizhra wrote...
Hypothetically, what if the Chantry ending was bittersweet and the mage ending was happy, at least for those who liked mages? You'd consider the mage ending inferior regardless so wouldn't feel as though you were handicapping yourself by picking the templar ending and would still get to enjoy that, and most of the people who want a happy ending seem to prefer the mage side, just as the ones who want a bittersweet one prefer the templar side, so everything'll work out.
Also, of the games you mentioned, the vast majority of them have preset characters, not characters that the player makes themselves and hence becomes personally invested in. As for DAO, I never found the ending to be bittersweet at all, but pretty much straight-up happy (though I didn't romance Morrigan... but a happy ending for that comes around eventually).
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