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[Rawgrim]

deuce985 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Rogues in DA2 ended up being great. Far better than DAO's broke Archery Rogues...

Varric in DA2 can wipe rooms out with Haste and all his other Haste buffs inside his tree...it took an expansion in DAO to partially fix Archery...

Only because they made archery the Mary Sue of weapon choices. You fire 4 arrows up into the ceilling, and 200 of them fall down atop of your enemies, magically avoiding hitting people who happen to be your friends? It was beyond lame. Its not fixed, its even more broken now.

I don't get these arguments at all...

Yea because DAO certainly didn't have any over-the-top abilities. At least I could actually dish great damage out in Archery, unlike DAO.

For all the hate DA2 gets, it did plenty of things better.

DA:O did have some over the top stuff too, sure. But at least it looked more belivable, and didn`t make me cringe whenever I saw it.

DA2 dumbed down things better. Thats what it did.

[Palipride47]

I actually felt like warriors got the worst treatment in DA2.

Nearly every character resistant to physical damage + few elemental DPS weapons + much lower stamina regen (only regen when you kill an enemy) and if Anders uses one fireball and 6 critters just died......yeah, no, rogues were amazingly overpowered. In both games.

I think in DA2, one dagger had higher DPS output than a two handed sword (might've been patched)

Although, I'll agree with OP about "ridiculous cunning"

Without a "increases lockpicking/ better diarm trap" item (like Thrice Bound, or a ring of some sort), you had to get up to 40 Cunning to unlock Master Chests (for Lost Swords Quest) or disarm Master Traps.

Cunning increases Critical Damage, but what's the point of adding points to Cunning to unlock a chest/disarm a trap when you have 36 Cunning and Critical Damage is already 112%. I'd rather spend on Dex, so that I'm more likely to get more instances of critical hits.

That was annoying. 

EDIT: nvm, apparently Cunning never hits a "ceiling" so 300% Critical Damage exists. So yeah, rogues still awesome, made even more awesome. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 28 octobre 2012 - 03:02 .

[sharkboy421]

Palipride47 wrote...

Cunning increases Critical Damage, but what's the point of adding points to Cunning to unlock a chest/disarm a trap when you have 36 Cunning and Critical Damage is already 112%. I'd rather spend on Dex, so that I'm more likely to get more instances of critical hits.

Through gear and buffs like Heroic Aura it is very possible to get 100% crit chance.  All your points could then go into cunning and you'd get a monster amount of crit damage.  I usually end up around 300% crit damage.

Sure rogue was a bit fragile but it's damage out put is insanely high.  I agree with some of the posters here that rogue was a fine class in both games, probably my favorite.  Although a Berserker/Vanguard in 2 is also extremely fun.

[Palipride47]

sharkboy421 wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Cunning increases Critical Damage, but what's the point of adding points to Cunning to unlock a chest/disarm a trap when you have 36 Cunning and Critical Damage is already 112%. I'd rather spend on Dex, so that I'm more likely to get more instances of critical hits.

Through gear and buffs like Heroic Aura it is very possible to get 100% crit chance.  All your points could then go into cunning and you'd get a monster amount of crit damage.  I usually end up around 300% crit damage.

Sure rogue was a bit fragile but it's damage out put is insanely high.  I agree with some of the posters here that rogue was a fine class in both games, probably my favorite.  Although a Berserker/Vanguard in 2 is also extremely fun.

But points in Cunning really did not do anything after you hit 100% besides unlock chests (if I remember correctly, haven't played through without doing so for modding purposes in a while).

Otherwise, yes, I would pour insane amount of points into Cunning (my City Elf rogue by end of Awakening had 75 cunning, and she was a one-hit machine. A real glass cannon (since I poured relatively little into Con). Even more effective against mages than Anders and Mana Clash)

Modifié par Palipride47, 28 octobre 2012 - 02:51 .

[sharkboy421]

Palipride47 wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Cunning increases Critical Damage, but what's the point of adding points to Cunning to unlock a chest/disarm a trap when you have 36 Cunning and Critical Damage is already 112%. I'd rather spend on Dex, so that I'm more likely to get more instances of critical hits.

Through gear and buffs like Heroic Aura it is very possible to get 100% crit chance.  All your points could then go into cunning and you'd get a monster amount of crit damage.  I usually end up around 300% crit damage.

Sure rogue was a bit fragile but it's damage out put is insanely high.  I agree with some of the posters here that rogue was a fine class in both games, probably my favorite.  Although a Berserker/Vanguard in 2 is also extremely fun.

But points in Cunning really did not do anything after you hit 100% besides unlock chests (if I remember correctly, haven't played through without doing so for modding purposes in a while). There is a "sweet spot" and after you hit the sweet spot, you get less "bang for your buck", so to speak.

No they increase the amount of damage your critical hits deal.  Dex modified your attack rating.  You only needed a moderate amount to land hits consistently and reach a 100% crit hit rate.  Once you have that more Dex is kinda meaningless.  You might as well put more points into Cun as it will constantly increase crit damage.

[Palipride47]

sharkboy421 wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Cunning increases Critical Damage, but what's the point of adding points to Cunning to unlock a chest/disarm a trap when you have 36 Cunning and Critical Damage is already 112%. I'd rather spend on Dex, so that I'm more likely to get more instances of critical hits.

Through gear and buffs like Heroic Aura it is very possible to get 100% crit chance.  All your points could then go into cunning and you'd get a monster amount of crit damage.  I usually end up around 300% crit damage.

Sure rogue was a bit fragile but it's damage out put is insanely high.  I agree with some of the posters here that rogue was a fine class in both games, probably my favorite.  Although a Berserker/Vanguard in 2 is also extremely fun.

But points in Cunning really did not do anything after you hit 100% besides unlock chests (if I remember correctly, haven't played through without doing so for modding purposes in a while). There is a "sweet spot" and after you hit the sweet spot, you get less "bang for your buck", so to speak.

No they increase the amount of damage your critical hits deal.  Dex modified your attack rating.  You only needed a moderate amount to land hits consistently and reach a 100% crit hit rate.  Once you have that more Dex is kinda meaningless.  You might as well put more points into Cun as it will constantly increase crit damage.

Oh! Constant increase, then? I got them confused then *Gibb Slap Self*

I knew the difference between Dex vs Cunning, but I thought Cunning and Critical Damage after 100% meant yo hit the ceiling and you wouldn't get any bonus after that.

Modifié par Palipride47, 28 octobre 2012 - 02:54 .

[sharkboy421]

Palipride47 wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Cunning increases Critical Damage, but what's the point of adding points to Cunning to unlock a chest/disarm a trap when you have 36 Cunning and Critical Damage is already 112%. I'd rather spend on Dex, so that I'm more likely to get more instances of critical hits.

Through gear and buffs like Heroic Aura it is very possible to get 100% crit chance.  All your points could then go into cunning and you'd get a monster amount of crit damage.  I usually end up around 300% crit damage.

Sure rogue was a bit fragile but it's damage out put is insanely high.  I agree with some of the posters here that rogue was a fine class in both games, probably my favorite.  Although a Berserker/Vanguard in 2 is also extremely fun.

But points in Cunning really did not do anything after you hit 100% besides unlock chests (if I remember correctly, haven't played through without doing so for modding purposes in a while). There is a "sweet spot" and after you hit the sweet spot, you get less "bang for your buck", so to speak.

No they increase the amount of damage your critical hits deal.  Dex modified your attack rating.  You only needed a moderate amount to land hits consistently and reach a 100% crit hit rate.  Once you have that more Dex is kinda meaningless.  You might as well put more points into Cun as it will constantly increase crit damage.

Oh! I got them confused then *Gibb Slap Self*

No worries!  I think you got Dex and Cun confused.  You are right about Dex reach a "sweet spot" each level but that is easy enough to reach and even if your a little below it doesn't matter when every hit is a crit doing 300% damage .

And I apologize if I came off defensive, rogue is just my favorite class and it is a power house when built correctly.  So I didn't want to short change it.

[Palipride47]

sharkboy421 wrote...

No worries!  I think you got Dex and Cun confused.  You are right about Dex reach a "sweet spot" each level but that is easy enough to reach and even if your a little below it doesn't matter when every hit is a crit doing 300% damage .

And I apologize if I came off defensive, rogue is just my favorite class and it is a power house when built correctly.  So I didn't want to short change it.

No, its fine, I love my rogues too. I almost always play rogues if I play melee class.

Siofra Tabria ftw. I think I edited my post to mention her, but I gave her 75 cunning, and she was a lithe, quick, high DPS, one shot killing machine. Way better than my clunky, slow 1HD Cousland

Modifié par Palipride47, 28 octobre 2012 - 03:00 .

[sharkboy421]

Palipride47 wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

No worries!  I think you got Dex and Cun confused.  You are right about Dex reach a "sweet spot" each level but that is easy enough to reach and even if your a little below it doesn't matter when every hit is a crit doing 300% damage .

And I apologize if I came off defensive, rogue is just my favorite class and it is a power house when built correctly.  So I didn't want to short change it.

No, its fine, I love my rogues too. I almost always play rogues if I play melee class.

Siofra Tabria ftw. I think I edited my post to mention her, but I gave her 75 cunning, and she was a lithe, quick, high DPS, one shot killing machine. Way better than my clunky, slow 1HD Cousland

Ah very nice.  Yeah I remember having insane stats by the end of Awakening.  It was so much fun.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Palipride47 wrote...
Without a "increases lockpicking/ better diarm trap" item (like Thrice Bound, or a ring of some sort), you had to get up to 40 Cunning to unlock Master Chests (for Lost Swords Quest) or disarm Master Traps.

Just 30 cunning, actually.  With maxed deft hands of course.

[Realmzmaster]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...
Without a "increases lockpicking/ better diarm trap" item (like Thrice Bound, or a ring of some sort), you had to get up to 40 Cunning to unlock Master Chests (for Lost Swords Quest) or disarm Master Traps.

Just 30 cunning, actually.  With maxed deft hands of course.

Only DAO had deft hands. The Lost Swords quest is in DA2. Cunning had to be 40 to pick Master chests in DA2. Getting to 40 was not all the hard for the rogues. Since defense was also tied to cunning in DA2 it made sense to put as much into Cunning as possible.

Defense in DAO was tied to Dexterity.

[mickey111]

Telefax wrote...

In both previous DA titles, it always seemed to me like the rogues got the short end of the stick, in neither game they did particularly impressive damage to go with their inherent squishyness, and in both games they had to sacrifice combat ability in order to do the job you really expect a rogue to do, that is, pick locks and disable traps (also, both games really could have used some more inventive, or even puzzle based traps). The multi-stat dependency for rogues in both DA-games was also really annoying, requiring all stats but magic in the first game (later fixed, i know), and the ridiculous cunning requirement in DA 2 in order to pick late-game locks.

Also, consider giving rogues and warriors some bonus stamina on level up or through some other skills, since mages dont have to multistat to gain their main resource. (with multistat I mean: having to select stats from outside the ones that increase your ability to meet item requirements)

You don't understand how the games worked. Building a good character requires specialization, that means you focus on one or two key attributes out of the six. Getting decent results with the character requires diversity. This means that your rogue has to get behind the enmeis to maximise damage, so they have to be focusing on the teams tank or to be incapacitated. You're trying to build a rogue that is good at everything. It doesn't work like that, Next time you play through origins run with alistar, zevran and morrigan and follow my advice.

Have zevran equipped and levelled as a duel weilding damage dealer and distribute points into cunning and dexterity, but make sure he has around 20ish strenght so he can equip some good inventory. don't worry if he dies easily, if the rest of the party is built properly then zevran will hardly ever be under attack.

Make alistair into the punching bag. Just give him lots of strength, good equipment, the taunt ability and shield abilities. he also needs all of the healing you can afford so make sure someone in the group is good at herbalism.

Have morrigan focus on disabling the enemies with spells like nightmare and sleep, and tier 1 healing allocate all stats into spell power.

These three have all bases covered so you can build your own characte however you want and even nightmare difficulty will be a total cake walk if your tactics are decent. 

Modifié par mickey111, 28 octobre 2012 - 07:11 .

[Reptillius]

You know that 250 damage achievement? I first did it on a rogue in DA:O. That was before I learned certain mage tricks that would get me like 500 damage every time I did them or a couple of overpowered hits from warriors that could knock out everything but a major boss.

Rogues by no means had the short end. Warriors either. They just excelled at two very different things. Though for OP. I liked a couple of the spirit based combinations that existed in DAII before they nerfed them that were still heavily devestating after they did so.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Hah, are you kidding? I was always irked that rogues could dominate fights so easily compared to other classes. Loghain and the Arishok went down in 5 seconds flat.

[Shadow Fox]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Hah, are you kidding? I was always irked that rogues could dominate fights so easily compared to other classes. Loghain and the Arishok went down in 5 seconds flat.

Yup

CUN based DW Rogue Activate: Momentum>Activate: Song of Courage>Activate: Tainted Blade= easy mode

[Wozearly]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Hah, are you kidding? I was always irked that rogues could dominate fights so easily compared to other classes. Loghain and the Arishok went down in 5 seconds flat.

Agreed. The DW rogues have always been the absolute kings of single-target focused damage, with tricks to disengage should they need to and (frankly) generally high enough dexterity to duke it out on their own for a while if things go wrong.

In DA:O, even if you stacked enough strength on them so that they could use the top level longswords and wear medium armour, they were still lethal - and it didn't matter if their dexterity was a little bit shoddy, since most of your damage (should) be from auto-hitting backstabs.

By the end of Awakening, a cunning-focused DW with only enough strength for the best light armour and only enough Dex to unlock all the talents was utterly deadly. The rogue archer built correctly with cunning and longbow was also right up there with the most lethal damage builds. Rogue archer and Rogue DW were also far better in damage output than warrior archer and warrior DW.

Yes, the rogue tree in DA:O did have more non-combat talents than the rest, and not all of those were as useful. On the other hand, the talents the rogues did get were pretty freaking awesome and, for both archer and DW, a lot of their damage came from autoattacking rather than from abilities (completely unlike warriors and mages), so a wider variety of combat talents wasn't necessarily all that useful.

Really not getting the angle that rogues got the short end of the stick.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...
Without a "increases lockpicking/ better diarm trap" item (like Thrice Bound, or a ring of some sort), you had to get up to 40 Cunning to unlock Master Chests (for Lost Swords Quest) or disarm Master Traps.

Just 30 cunning, actually.  With maxed deft hands of course.

Only DAO had deft hands. The Lost Swords quest is in DA2. Cunning had to be 40 to pick Master chests in DA2. Getting to 40 was not all the hard for the rogues. Since defense was also tied to cunning in DA2 it made sense to put as much into Cunning as possible.

Defense in DAO was tied to Dexterity.

Er.. oh.  Yeah.  Usually when I'm thinking of dragon age gameplay mechanics and yada yada I'm only thinking about origins. Its easy to forget DA2 even really existed.  >_> 

[DaJe]

marshalleck wrote...

Personally I'd like to see more emphasis placed on rogues as utility rather than as combatants. More traps, more locks, more treasure stashes, more hidden shortcuts and more puzzles. And make this stuff exclusive to players who bring a rogue along in their party.

I totally agree with that.
In general I wish there was more of a team dynamic outside of combat, where characters and their special abilities drive the adventure forward or give you satisfying bonuses.
It should be done in a way that is not too froced or makes you feel punished all the time. Hard thing to do, but worth it imo.

The suicide mission of ME2 is one example.

[Patchwork]

It would be nice if all classes had some utility out of combat e.g. rogues have high awareness and can spot treasure troves, mages' pickpocket or retrieve items telekineticly, warrior could bash open chests with a small chance of destroying the loot.

The rogue build I would like changed is the archer to something more sneaky assassin like. A high sneak so the archer can disable and plant traps across the battlefield then find some shadows or high ground to kill from, provide a distraction if required.

I suppose overall I'd like to tone down the combat. If they do create MP I think combat is going to be overhauled, which is something positive I can say about ME3. Tallis' tree would be a good basis for a templar rogue.

[Palipride47]

DaJe wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Personally I'd like to see more emphasis placed on rogues as utility rather than as combatants. More traps, more locks, more treasure stashes, more hidden shortcuts and more puzzles. And make this stuff exclusive to players who bring a rogue along in their party.

I totally agree with that.
In general I wish there was more of a team dynamic outside of combat, where characters and their special abilities drive the adventure forward or give you satisfying bonuses.
It should be done in a way that is not too froced or makes you feel punished all the time. Hard thing to do, but worth it imo.

The suicide mission of ME2 is one example.

I think they tried to make team dynamics with CCC's. I applaud that, it made bringing a warrior slighty more worth it, since some of the stagger/"other" CCCs were fierce. 

DAO had "spell combos," but why wait for your 2H to Mighty Blow and Shatter a frozen enemy when you can guarantee it with Stonefist, even on lieutenants?

Or, why even bring Alistair along for mage debilitation when you've invested in Spirit School and have Mana Clash (aka. the most overpowered spell in the entire game - minus expansions) 

Give me a reason to bring a warrior besides warrior = punching bag and aggro distraction while Archer/DW/Mage Hawke slaughters all of you in one shot. 

I feel kinda pathetic for saying so, but Warrior was my hardest playthrough. Especially fighting the Arishok with no elemental weapon equipped or in inventory, very few stamina potions, and Templar Spec.  (I'm actually not that good)

[sharkboy421]

Palipride47 wrote...

Give me a reason to bring a warrior besides warrior = punching bag and aggro distraction while Archer/DW/Mage Hawke slaughters all of you in one shot. 

I feel kinda pathetic for saying so, but Warrior was my hardest playthrough. Especially fighting the Arishok with no elemental weapon equipped or in inventory, very few stamina potions, and Templar Spec.  (I'm actually not that good)

Warrior can actually have good damage depending how you spec it.  Granted it will never reach the level of a rogue on a single target, but a warrior can down multiple enemies at once.  The build I found most enjoyable was the berserker/vanguard combo that relied a lot on basic attacks but was immensely powerful.  There are several guides and videos on here that showcase how the build works.

And don't judge yourself based on the Arishok fight.  Cool idea but it just didn't work with the combat system.  It just plain sucks for a melee.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

sharkboy421 wrote...

Warrior can actually have good damage depending how you spec it.  Granted it will never reach the level of a rogue on a single target, but a warrior can down multiple enemies at once.  The build I found most enjoyable was the berserker/vanguard combo that relied a lot on basic attacks but was immensely powerful.  There are several guides and videos on here that showcase how the build works.

And don't judge yourself based on the Arishok fight.  Cool idea but it just didn't work with the combat system.  It just plain sucks for a melee.

Warriors can down multiple mooks at once. Anything tougher and they're little more than damage sponges.

It's how they're made, but I can't say I like it. You expect someone in full armour armed with a greatsword to be a bit more badass. My warrior was running away from the Arishok and praying her mabari could deal enough damage to take him down. Must have taken at least 10 minutes. Thank the Maker for concussion grenade potions.

[sharkboy421]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Warriors can down multiple mooks at once. Anything tougher and they're little more than damage sponges.

It's how they're made, but I can't say I like it. You expect someone in full armour armed with a greatsword to be a bit more badass. My warrior was running away from the Arishok and praying her mabari could deal enough damage to take him down. Must have taken at least 10 minutes. Thank the Maker for concussion grenade potions.

I repsectfully beg to differ .  Video is from Arelex's Berserker Vanguard guide found here:
http://social.biowar...5/index/6616406

And seriously, I hate the Arishok fight.  Its so boring.  Grenade to stun > unload abilities for burst damage > kite for 5 minutes for grenade to cool down and repeat x.x.  That fight can just go die in a fire.

[TheAgarrar]

Telefax wrote...

In both previous DA titles, it always seemed to me like the rogues got the short end of the stick, in neither game they did particularly impressive damage to go with their inherent squishyness, and in both games they had to sacrifice combat ability in order to do the job you really expect a rogue to do, that is, pick locks and disable traps (also, both games really could have used some more inventive, or even puzzle based traps). The multi-stat dependency for rogues in both DA-games was also really annoying, requiring all stats but magic in the first game (later fixed, i know), and the ridiculous cunning requirement in DA 2 in order to pick late-game locks.

Also, consider giving rogues and warriors some bonus stamina on level up or through some other skills, since mages dont have to multistat to gain their main resource. (with multistat I mean: having to select stats from outside the ones that increase your ability to meet item requirements)

You never used my rogues, my Warden and Hawke were crazy damage-dealers, they even did more damage than my warriors especially in DA2

[Foune]

I would actually see backstab back as a passive skill/modifier to the rogue class, when it was brought as a talent ability it ruined pretty much for my rogue experience. Part of playing the rogue class in games is that you have to plan your battles and think like a rogue, backstabbing an enemy is supposed to be hard but very rewarding, I want to be able to oneshot that mage on the far end of the room when the battle starts if I've planned things correctly.