253 réponses à ce sujet

[Volc19]

I felt a massive disconnect between myself and Shepard during the scenes when he gets all PTSD about the kid. Up until that point, Shepard was me. He was the player's puppet that was used to act within the game. Once Shepard started feeling emotions I didn't feel, started saying things that I wouldn't say, and not being able to properly project my feelings (Ex. Mordin's death was heartwrenching. I wanted Shepard to feel really sad about his death, and I was never able to. Even the night after he died, the conversation I had with Liara involved me only being able to be broken up about the VC or no one at all.) The child's death didn't impact me even a little, but Shepard seemed completely torn up about it.

In ME3, I stopped being Shepard. My feelings took a backseat to those of my puppet. That isn't how Mass Effect is supposed to be.

[David7204]

Volc19 wrote...

I felt a massive disconnect between myself and Shepard during the scenes when he gets all PTSD about the kid. Up until that point, Shepard was me. He was the player's puppet that was used to act within the game. Once Shepard started feeling emotions I didn't feel, started saying things that I wouldn't say, and not being able to properly project my feelings (Ex. Mordin's death was heartwrenching. I wanted Shepard to feel really sad about his death, and I was never able to. Even the night after he died, the conversation I had with Liara involved me only being able to be broken up about the VC or no one at all.) The child's death didn't impact me even a little, but Shepard seemed completely torn up about it.

In ME3, I stopped being Shepard. My feelings took a backseat to those of my puppet. That isn't how Mass Effect is supposed to be.

That's the way it's going to be with any heavily emotional situation with the protagonist in a video game. There's no way around it. And Mass Effect 3 has a lot more of those situations than the previous games.

[The Eruptionist]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

The Eruptionist wrote...

spockjedi wrote...

This stupid kid refused help from the BIGGEST HERO IN THE GALAXY. Did Bioware really want me to be sad about him?
If that wasn't stupid enough, there were the stupid slow-motion dreams, all of them annoying, especially the one RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROMANCE SCENE. Argh! I just wanted to enjoy my time with Liara, not being forced to fell sorry about the Haley Joel Osment guy
Last time I finished ME3 I turned off my screen and my headset during the dreams and the catalyst "confrontation", just because I couldn't bring myself to see his face and hear his voice anymore.
I think the major causes for the reduction of replaying value in ME3 were the ending, the dreams and the fetch quests.

The kid most likely just saw hundreds of people, including marines, getting murdered and turned into husks. Not wanting help from Shepard is understandable. 

Everyones' Shepard cares about saving the galaxy, whether renegade or paragon. Both of those character types have the weight of the galaxy on their shoulders and want to preserve life. They just have different means of achieving that end. I stated this earlier but I think if you look at the boy simply as the representation of all those lives you couldn' save as opposed to an individual that you don't have much attachment to then it puts the emotional response of Shepard in a different light. The reaction to the boy is simply the final straw and Shepard releases some of the emotion that's been building over the last two games.

First of all, No. The bolded is incorrect. Renegade Shepard seems to more or less care about getting the job done over anything else and cares about nothing more than the goal/prize/etc. Now, this can be subject to interpretations and varries on a case by case basis due to Shepard being 'x' variable and this is only the face value Renegade.

Second off, Shepard is a VARIABLE! He has no set persionality. He can be written five million and 3 different way and interpretations. That may be YOUR interpretation of YOUR Shepard, but that DOES NOT apply to all other Shepards. Many people play Shepard as a near psyho loonatic who has not a care in the world for life at all, but they're still extremely charismatic.

If you cared about the child and that direction of PTSD was perfect for your Shepard, good for you. If it wasn't, Bioware did what NO RPG is ever supposed to do and God mod'd our Shepards into caring.

To an above arguement over Shepard being moody after the Normandy is docked, that is not a case of god modding as every Shepard is going to care about that.

But then why is renegade Shepard trying to save the galaxy if he doesn't care about saving people on some level? Surely even renegade Shepard  cares about people; if you romance someone then that's a direct example. I'm finding it hard to believe that a lot (if any) people play Shepard as some psychopath who only wants to save the galaxy to attain some detatched notion of 'the prize' which is entirely unrelated to the preservation of life on some level. 

I guess you can play your Shepard like that if you want but it just seems incredibly narrow and void of meaning to do so. Bioware must have made a mistake in assuming that people generally care about protecting human life. I don't think that making Shepard care about life as part of his/ her default personality is something that people need to get so upset about. So people are fine with Shepard having one of three background stories dictated to them but they get upset when it's revealed that their Shepard cares about life?

Modifié par The Eruptionist, 28 octobre 2012 - 06:33 .

[David7204]

Saving that an RPG should NEVER EVER 'force' any kind of mental state onto a character is not only completely ridiculous, it's utterly untrue and hypocritical to complain about it in Mass Effect. Every RPG protagonist in existence has had set characteristics to some extent. For example, Shepard is a soldier. Shepard wants to track down Saren. Shepard is a member of the Alliance. Clearly, Shepard cares about those things no matter what the player may or may not feel. The player has no control over that. Nor should s/he.

Modifié par David7204, 28 octobre 2012 - 05:14 .

[Volc19]

David7204 wrote...

Volc19 wrote...

I felt a massive disconnect between myself and Shepard during the scenes when he gets all PTSD about the kid. Up until that point, Shepard was me. He was the player's puppet that was used to act within the game. Once Shepard started feeling emotions I didn't feel, started saying things that I wouldn't say, and not being able to properly project my feelings (Ex. Mordin's death was heartwrenching. I wanted Shepard to feel really sad about his death, and I was never able to. Even the night after he died, the conversation I had with Liara involved me only being able to be broken up about the VC or no one at all.) The child's death didn't impact me even a little, but Shepard seemed completely torn up about it.

In ME3, I stopped being Shepard. My feelings took a backseat to those of my puppet. That isn't how Mass Effect is supposed to be.

That's the way it's going to be with any heavily emotional situation with the protagonist in a video game. There's no way around it. And Mass Effect 3 has a lot more of those situations than the previous games.

Though there is a distinct difference between the standard videogame and Mass Effect. STnadard videogames feature a main character. This character has opinions, wants, loves, woes, and all else that makes a person a person. While we are pushed to empathize with them, we never assume that the main character is supposed to react how we would react. That character is not representitive of the player, and should not be treated as such.

Mass Effect doesn't have a set main character. It has a blank slate that the player projects onto. The player is, in this situation, the protagonist. In this situation, the player's emotions and opinions being represented are paramount to immersion. When the focus then shifts from a player-driven emotional narriative to a character-driven emotional narriative, immersion is broken.

In short, if Shepard was always a static character with set emotions, the kid's death would be extremely powerful as a symbol. However, due to our experience of being in complete control of Shepard, some of us are bound to feel disconnected from the story when that control is wrenched away.

[David7204]

Maybe so. But there isn't really a solution.

[The Eruptionist]

David7204 wrote...

Saving that an RPG should NEVER EVER 'force' any kind of mental state onto a character is not only completely ridiculous, it's utterly untrue and hypocritical to complain about it in Mass Effect. Every RPG protagonist in existence has had set characteristics to some extent. For example, Shepard is a soldier. Shepard wants to track down Saren. Shepard is a member of the Alliance. Clearly, Shepard cares about those things no matter what the player may or may not feel. The player has no control over that. Nor should s/he.

A very valid point. There are more limitations on Shepard's default personality than people are willing to acknowledge or admit. Simply making him/ her care about saving lives on some level (when the majority of people, if not all, would already hold this perspective themselves) is not a bigger deal as people are making out.

[Necrotron]

No, it felt extremely forced. The only reaction I had with regards to the kid was having the Reaper god whom the story seemed to feel I was supposed to inherently trust was wearing his appearance like some sick joke. It really set the tone for being trolled at the end for everything my character stood for as I watched in horror as my character was forced to not only bow, but agree with this never-before-seen character's wild accusations.

Modifié par Bathaius, 28 octobre 2012 - 05:27 .

[ADeadDiehard]

Killing a kid is pointless when you're killing off my friends.

[StarcloudSWG]

It was a very poor attempt at emotional manipulation. Shepard, no matter WHICH background you pick, has someone in their past they couldn't save. Sole Survivor, War Hero, Ruthless, there's squadmates in the past they couldn't save. There's civilians. Shepard has many ghosts; Why this one kid?

They could've done dream sequences with dead squadmates. Virmire Sacrifice, for one. They could've started with Jenkins; there was more attachment to Jenkins than that kid.

There were *many* possibilities. Instead, they chose a random child and yelled at the player, "See! He's dead now! Feel bad, feel bad I tell you! You must feel bad!"

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 28 octobre 2012 - 07:08 .

[Zan51]

Been said before. The kid was an immersion breaker for me. I felt nothing for him then, and when he turned up in nightmares he annoyed the hell out of me, that's all. Why would I care about him when I never knew him, when folk like Thane died? He meant something to me, was a friend, this kid was too much an obvious symbol of something. It was shoved in my face and I resent that so respond by not giving a damn on a subconscious level,. Had it been done properly, like the loss of Thane and Mordin, then perhaps I would have cared, Perhaps, but I doubt it as I hated the damned nightmares with a passion! Why be in armor in them when he first sees the kid in his civvies??

[jakal66]

All I can read is some seriously angry butt hurt people...being critical about everything in this game.

I felt the sequence was emotional,yes it wasn't original, but I did what it was supposed to do, the dreams are just a representation of those he lost, the kid taking the central role, as an innocent victiom he couldn't save. Everybody's talking trash cuz the catalyst takes his form...if the catalyst would have taken the form of the Virmire dead squaddie nobody would have said ****...

Hypocrisy is well fitting in these forums...but you know opinions are like buttholes, everyone's got one including myself...

[CDR David Shepard]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

It was an absolutely pathetic attempt at emotional manipulation. Shepard, no matter WHICH background you pick, has someone in their past they couldn't save. Sole Survivor, War Hero, Ruthless, there's squadmates in the past they couldn't save. There's civilians. Shepard has many ghosts; Why this one kid?

They could've done dream sequences with dead squadmates. Virmire Sacrifice, for one. They could've started with Jenkins; there was more attachment to Jenkins than that kid.

There were *many* possibilities. Instead, they chose a random child and yelled at the player, "See! He's dead now! Feel bad, feel bad I tell you! You must feel bad!"

You're honestly going to describe it as "pathetic"?

That's absurd.

Anyways...I think the point of it being a kid is to show what's really being taken away by the reapers and the war.

Their future.

A child is the best way to show this...the best way for this to hit the nail on the head.

Yes...Shepard has lost squadmates and others fighting...but these were people fighting along side him. These were people who chose to put their lives on the line.
 
In my opinion...seeing Jenkins die is not the same as seeing a kid die.

Shepard...and Jenkins...were fighting for Humanity and it's future...this kids future.

Seeing a representation of what you're fighting for...especially a defenseless child being killed by the enemies you are fighting while leaving the battle...

...this is what gets to Shepard.

Yes, Shepard sees the kid in his dreams...but really...the kid represents Earth and all the people he left behind to die while he left to go save it.

[Kulbelbolka]

Actually I think that child's plot role is not to symbolize innocent victims of war, but to emphasize that Shepard is mentally ill.

If you played first two MEs carefully than you should saw that Shepard was very strong person. There was only two times when he was upset; before Ilos and after assaulting Shadow Broker's base.

In ME3 Shepard looks very weak and exhausted. Even his face looks older than in ME2. Also he sees this nightmares and have headaches.

I don't mean indoctrintation, but I'm sure that it's something wrong with Shepard.

[CDR David Shepard]

Kulbelbolka wrote...

Actually I think that child's plot role is not to symbolize innocent victims of war, but to emphasize that Shepard is mentally ill.

If you played first two MEs carefully than you should saw that Shepard was very strong person. There was only two times when he was upset; before Ilos and after assaulting Shadow Broker's base.

In ME3 Shepard looks very weak and exhausted. Even his face looks older than in ME2. Also he sees this nightmares and have headaches.

I don't mean indoctrintation, but I'm sure that it's something wrong with Shepard.

I think the Reapers destroying Earth while (s)he had to leave it just gets to Shepard emotionally more than anything else (s)he has been through.

Any other time...they are there fighting the enemies...or taking it to the enemies. This time...they have to "run" to save people.

I don't think (s)he is mentally ill at all...it's not hard to assume that seeing your home and everyone be destroyed will be hard emotionally...even for the strongest person.

Modifié par CDR David Shepard, 28 octobre 2012 - 06:39 .

[Terraforming2154]

I didn't really care, honestly. I felt worse for the kid when he was in the vent, and he shrunk away from Shepard's hand while saying "you can't help me." I know a lot people hated that scene as well, but that part did make me feel bad. The kid disappearing, fate unknown but ultimately bleak, would have bothered me more than watching him die.

For me, his death mixed with Mansell's mournful piano music just felt emotionally manipulative to a degree. I mean, it really sucked that a kid (and everyone else on the shuttles who weren't important enough to be zeroed in on) died, but it didn't really resonate with me. It felt like the whole scene, including Shep's reaction, was just pushing and poking at the viewer to feel sad.

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 28 octobre 2012 - 06:41 .

[Jadebaby]

legion 21 wrote...

Xellith wrote...



Nope.

lol  this is great

QFT

[LanceSolous13]

David7204 wrote...

Maybe so. But there isn't really a solution.

There IS solution.

DON'T
BREAK
CHARACTERS

Its perfectly logical for my Fem!Shepard to break down in tears over Thane's death. But she doesn't.

Its perfectly illogical for the same Shepard to be having nightmares over the stupid kid instead of her LOVE INTEREST. But she does so anyways.

Its absurd that a NAMELESS CHILD who has all of 5 seconds of screen time TAKES PRESEDENCE OVER LOVE INTEREST.

Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 gave you the ability to make an absolute choice of your stance on different things and either not care or care a lot about. You could befriend or enemy mine with others.

In Mass Effect 3, We become the Alliance Lap Dog no matter what regardless of weather we told them to F off in prior games. Same goes for the Council. My Bro!Shepard hated the Council but saved them anyways, said screw you in ME2, and then is all friendly with them in ME3? What?

It makes no sense.

Instead of killing off some ****** child after 2 lines of dialogue and screaming at us to "FEEL SAD DAMN IT!", We should have had an actual character that we spent three games caring about die OR had the choice to care on top of that.

Shepard's ME3 Forced-Persionality is fine FOR A PREDEFINED CHARACTER. Everyone's Shepard was as unique as a fingerprint.

If they had a scene with my Shepard making a great tasting dinner for the crew, I'd be a bit awkward as I've always joked that my Shepard is such a bad cook that he burned Ramen during Mass Effect 1.

In a more relatable example, It would be like Fem!Shepard suddnly making out with Liara when we had previously established her a straight or Bro!Shepard banging Miranda when previously established as homosexual.

[David7204]

And what about a Shepard that wouldn't cry over Thane? They get screwed over if you have a crying scene.

[AdrynBliss]

I think what pissed ppl off was that they clearly don't get that while there is a certain amount of freedom to develop your shep they way you want, it exists within a defined framework. My shep wouldn't do this, wouldn't do that? even full renegade shep isn't a, nor can he be a complete, psychopath. and frankly many of the responses in this thread are embarrassing. As has been pointed out the kid represents something much larger, every time you complain about the kid being a 'pathetic' attempt by bio to make you sad your not getting it and your telling every one you don't get it.

Modifié par AdrynBliss, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:18 .

[David7204]

And thus the problem. Every video game that exists and will ever exist is a 'defined framework.'

[someguy1231]

That kid was a just a ham-fisted, forced attempt at tugging at the player's heartstrings. Plus he was acting awfully stupid, refusing Shepard's help like that. Even if the Catalyst didn't take his form and Shepard didn't have those irritating dreams, I still would've hated him. That kid is pretty much everything that is wrong with how kids are written in games.

[Ieldra]

I was primed to write a long rant when I saw this topic but I realize LanceSolous and others beat me to it, so I'll make it short.

When the child died on the shuttle in the prologue, there was the "sh*t just got real" effect which was probably intended. That's ok. What's not ok is that this child goes on to haunt Shepard in their dreams. They've seen much worse things. I'd rather be haunted by the face of Lilith melted down at the Collector base, or by the image of Ashley or Kaidan dying on Virmire. Or, dependent on personality, maybe by the idea of having been brought back from the dead by Cerberus. Or countless other things which would have served equally well for every Shepard out there, and were actually meaningful for them.

Plainly, vent kid's presence after the prologue almost ruined the whole game. It's become symbolic for everything that's wrong with ME3. It makes Shepard act and dream out of character, it forces emotion instead of evoking it, as the shape the Catalyst chose to assume it represents everything that's wrong with the endings.

I hate vent kid. Remove it where possible, substitute something else where necessary, and ME3 would've told its story much better.

(I should explain my stance as a pro-ender here: I can make the endings work for me and I like the outcomes and the options for the final choice, but everything between Hackett informing Shepard that the Crucible doesn't fire and Shepard making the actual choice should've been completely redone in the EC, not just added to).

@AdrynBliss:
The point is that Shepard's emotional state should be left to the imagination of the player. The story can try to trigger emotions, like it did so well in the genophage plot, but it should never outright force them. The difference is: in the genophage plot, outside actions are made to trigger your emotions. In the dream scenes, assumed emotions trigger a nightmare. If as a writer, you go and assume emotions for a game's protagonist, you'd better make it convincing. As the responses here show, it was far from that. 

Edit:
LotSB showed us a good way to deal with this: Liara asks you how you feel, and you have three different responses: confident, frustrated and....hmm...what was the third one again? Anyway, if there were any dreams, they should be based on personality traits you actually expressed while playing the games.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:51 .

[yukon fire]

Its really sad that the only child in existence throughout the entire Mass Effect Universe (ever) not only has the dumbest lines and causes the death of all those people on the shuttle, but we get to be beat over the head with him at the expense to player agency (which used to be one of the defining aspects of this series). Also the crappy dream after Turchanka that drifts into the moronic conversation with Liara where you get to express remorse for either the Virimire Victim or a generic response (WHEN MORDIN JUST DIED, YOU MORONS!! HOW IS THAT NOT AN OPTION?!) has to be the among the laziest and most uninspired writing in any medium for the past fifteen years.

[Little Princess Peach]

The kid felt forced somehow, I felt nothing for him because I never got to know and grow an emotional attachment to the thing, Bio was like heres a kid now feel sad for him.