46 réponses à ce sujet

[Borschtbeet]

Yeah I'm sure those articles were very enlightening.

I don't know where you get the idea that people who pirate games who not have bought them anyways. Can you prove that? When faced with an option of obtaining a desired game for 50 dollars or obtaining the game for free with no reprecussions whatsoever, wouldn't logic dictate that at least a portion of the gaming community would just take it rather than spend money?



I think you overestimate the respect PC gamers have towards game publishers and developers. They don't give a damn, they only care about themselves which is why they're in no position to complain about how gaming has become more console oriented, they brought it on themselves through their own apathy.



Also, of course nobody is selling pirated PC games on the streets. What is the point of that when people can easily just download them for free online? Just because people are not directly profitting from PC pirating does not mean it doesn't hurt the industry. It has, and it is obvious due to the lack of PC exclusives compared to the last decade and the industry becoming more console-centric.

[Borschtbeet]

You know, it's funny how quick PC gamers are to defend piracy. They think gaming is their God given right and that to suggest that they should be made to pay money for their passion is blasphemy.



How many of you thieves have the balls to admit on this forum that you stole this game?

[fairandbalancedfan]

Borsch makes really good points guys, listen.



http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/12476

[DragonRageGT]

You do see that I'm a legit owner and part of D club right?

From the first article I linked:

You might want to look at a study about the effect of piracy on record sales from the Havard Business School which concludes that at least in their sample they could not find any noticeable effects. Try to find flaws and ask yourself if their result might be transferred onto games.

http://www.unc.edu/~...g_March2004.pdf

If you don't want to bother with it... just solve this!

(A12) Purchases
= (1-F(p,αV))+∫V>pf(V,φ(αV))G(γV,αq)dV+∫0>V>pf(V,αV)G(γV,αq)dV–∫V>0f(V,αV)G(γV,αq)dV
≡ PurchasesNoDownloads(p,αV) + Ψ(p,γ,αV,φ(αV),αq) - Downloads(γ,αV,αq)

Modifié par RageGT, 03 janvier 2010 - 07:10 .

[Ponce de Leon]

Borschtbeet wrote...

You know, it's funny how quick PC gamers are to defend piracy. They think gaming is their God given right and that to suggest that they should be made to pay money for their passion is blasphemy.

How many of you thieves have the balls to admit on this forum that you stole this game?

And how do we know YOU haven't stolen the game?
Still, I have no idea how pirates can register their pirated games on the place. And apart from that, if there is a way, I hope this is proof enough.


In not, then I don't care what you think of me.

[Borschtbeet]

RageGT wrote...

You do see that I'm a legit owner and part of D club right?

From the first article I linked:

You might want to look at a study about the effect of piracy on record sales from the Havard Business School which concludes that at least in their sample they could not find any noticeable effects. Try to find flaws and ask yourself if their result might be transferred onto games.

http://www.unc.edu/~...g_March2004.pdf

If you don't want to bother with it... just solve this!

(A12) Purchases
= (1-F(p,αV))+∫V>pf(V,φ(αV))G(γV,αq)dV+∫0>V>pf(V,αV)G(γV,αq)dV–∫V>0f(V,αV)G(γV,αq)dV
≡ PurchasesNoDownloads(p,αV) + Ψ(p,γ,αV,φ(αV),αq) - Downloads(γ,αV,αq)

Your link doesn't work, but even if it did it wouldn't matter.  Studies don't mean anything.  Everyone is always going to have their pontificators on both sides of every issue so don't go posting someone elses idea and pretend as if it's some sort of sacred cow.  Form your own opinions and defend them yourself rather than just accepting what other people say as gospel.

The idea that all those who elect to steal this game would've not have purchased this game otherwise is unfounded, baseless, and frankly just ignores human nature.  The idea of obtaining a desired item for free without any reprecussions is a temptation many people cannot resist.

As for whether I stole the game?  My copy is registered and you can see my posts on the forums which prove it.  I can't take a screenshot of a hard copy because I bought my game from direct2drive.

[DragonRageGT]

Borschtbeet wrote...

RageGT wrote...

You do see that I'm a legit owner and part of D club right?

From the first article I linked:

You might want to look at a study about the effect of piracy on record sales from the Havard Business School which concludes that at least in their sample they could not find any noticeable effects. Try to find flaws and ask yourself if their result might be transferred onto games.

http://www.unc.edu/~...g_March2004.pdf

If you don't want to bother with it... just solve this!

(A12) Purchases
= (1-F(p,αV))+∫V>pf(V,φ(αV))G(γV,αq)dV+∫0>V>pf(V,αV)G(γV,αq)dV–∫V>0f(V,αV)G(γV,αq)dV
≡ PurchasesNoDownloads(p,αV) + Ψ(p,γ,αV,φ(αV),αq) - Downloads(γ,αV,αq)

Your link doesn't work, but even if it did it wouldn't matter.  Studies don't mean anything.  Everyone is always going to have their pontificators on both sides of every issue so don't go posting someone elses idea and pretend as if it's some sort of sacred cow.  Form your own opinions and defend them yourself rather than just accepting what other people say as gospel.

The idea that all those who elect to steal this game would've not have purchased this game otherwise is unfounded, baseless, and frankly just ignores human nature.  The idea of obtaining a desired item for free without any reprecussions is a temptation many people cannot resist.

As for whether I stole the game?  My copy is registered and you can see my posts on the forums which prove it.  I can't take a screenshot of a hard copy because I bought my game from direct2drive.

The link here and in the original post with the 3 essays work fine! Latter is a PDF so if you don't have Acrobat Reader... well... And it's Harvard's, not the money grabber school around the corner. And it's not accepting what other people say as gospel. "Try to find any flaws..." It was told that if you want to disprove it. Disproving an academic paper based on your lack of argument to do it doesn't make it less true!

You have very little faith in human nature, as do I, but I also learned throught 45 years living in this planet and lots of travelling around the Globe that it is not true for 100% of us. And I think that it's not even a majority. The majority of the humans have something its called education, given by their parents and family and that forms principles and most of us practice those.

[Ponce de Leon]

Borschtbeet wrote...
As for whether I stole the game?  My copy is registered and you can see my posts on the forums which prove it.  I can't take a screenshot of a hard copy because I bought my game from direct2drive.

So if I understand, there ISN'T an actual way that the pirates may register pirated game, if I understand correctly?
Well, I have to tell that the non registered users that post on the forums of the game do feel like they are pirates. Won't accuse anyone of anything though.

And sorry if I sounded blunt before. It's just that I woke up on the other side of the bed

[Borschtbeet]

Regardless, I have no intention of reading other people's articles. I could go ahead and link articles to "studies" which point to the contrary.

Like I said, everyone is always going to have their experts on both sides of the issues so it's best for people to just come to their own conclusions.



It's not about a lack of education, it's about apathy and respect. When it comes to the relationship between developers and consumers, respect needs to go both ways. PC developers should respect their consumer base by delievering quality products and PC consumers should return the respect by paying for those products if they chose to play it.

That cycle of mutual respect though is broken however when PC gamers decide to steal and it is why developers have largely abandoned their PC gaming base.

PC exclusives are becoming a thing of the past. Today, PCs are hardly anything more than a medium for cross platform console ports. It has made me nostalgic for the days of games like System Shock, Deus Ex, Starcraft, Baldur's Gate, etc. Those days are truly over and it's because PC gamers do not respect those who make a living trying to entertain them.

[DragonRageGT]

What???? SC2 is around the corner!!! And a whole bunch of GT's are ready to challenge the world!!! Woot! You can't play on Battle.net any game unless you own it, you know that right? Since Diablo back in 96? Do you think Blizzard will stop making PC games?

[Borschtbeet]

Starcraft II has been just around the corner for over a year now but that is besides the point.



Starcraft II and Diablo III are just a couple of games and Blizzard is just one company. As it is, they're pretty much the last of the major companies to remain dedicated largely to PC's. Probably because they've gained their recent fortunes from WOW which will be some of the only PC exclusives we see in the years to come.



I honestly don't care much about Blizzard though. WOW is annoying and so are all of their annoying fanboys who think "Leeroy Jenkins!" is still funny. Their games take way too long to make and they're getting especially greedy, releasing Starcraft II as 3 full priced games in an episodic content.

[Rubbish Hero]

Borschtbeet wrote...Regardless, I have no intention of reading other people's articles.

Then we shouldn't bother reading your rants.
Respect and all that.

[Borschtbeet]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Borschtbeet wrote...Regardless, I have no intention of reading other people's articles.

Then we shouldn't bother reading your rants.
Respect and all that.

If you write your own opinion on the issue, then I will read it.  However, don't expect me to bite if you take the lazy way out and just post a whole bunch of other people's writngs on the web.

How would you like it if you posted an argument in defense of piracy and I countered by saying read these various articles and check back with me later?

Modifié par Borschtbeet, 03 janvier 2010 - 04:02 .

[Ponce de Leon]

The more releases of Starcraft 2 don't appeal to me either, but heck, I'll still buy it, I liked the first one. I just don't understand how Jim Raynor, a fat bald oldie becomes a super macho hero... There are things I'll never understand.

What I like of SC2, or rather, from screenies, is how it looks just like the old SC1. BUT of course, we'll see.

[Rubbish Hero]

dark-lauron wrote...

The more releases of Starcraft 2 don't appeal to me either, but heck, I'll still buy it, I liked the first one. I just don't understand how Jim Raynor, a fat bald oldie becomes a super macho hero... There are things I'll never understand.
What I like of SC2, or rather, from screenies, is how it looks just like the old SC1. BUT of course, we'll see.

I think the next Command And Conquert game could be better.
 Blizzard is known for polish but EA also polish the heck out of there games for the most part.
The series took a dip but it seems this time around  they are listening to community feedback this time and placing more emphasis on competitive gaming.

[IAGTTBleed]

My opinion - Piracy is wrong. People can say all they want about it not actually hurting the industry or how it increases sales, at the end of the day it is still theft.



On PC gaming - I don't think consoles are the reason why PC game production has declined recently. There has been consoles almost as long as there has been computers. I remember when more kids at my school had a NES than the kids that had a computer. PC game production actually got stronger in the following years. SNES/Megadrive didn't affect PC gaming either so I can't see how all of a sudden the 360/PS3 can do what all previous consoles couldn't.



I honestly can't think of a single reason why PC game production has declined. It definitely has considering the lack of new releases at gaming stores. I do think that MMO's are a part of the problem. Either the way kids will play just one game non-stop for years whilst spending their money on the subscription fees or the way every publisher jumped on the MMO bandwagon after WoW took off and they saw how much money blizzard was making.



I wish I knew why 'cause I believe the PC is still the best platform for new and unique games.



(Piracy IS theft!)

[Borschtbeet]

IAGTTBleed wrote...

My opinion - Piracy is wrong. People can say all they want about it not actually hurting the industry or how it increases sales, at the end of the day it is still theft.

On PC gaming - I don't think consoles are the reason why PC game production has declined recently. There has been consoles almost as long as there has been computers. I remember when more kids at my school had a NES than the kids that had a computer. PC game production actually got stronger in the following years. SNES/Megadrive didn't affect PC gaming either so I can't see how all of a sudden the 360/PS3 can do what all previous consoles couldn't.

I honestly can't think of a single reason why PC game production has declined. It definitely has considering the lack of new releases at gaming stores. I do think that MMO's are a part of the problem. Either the way kids will play just one game non-stop for years whilst spending their money on the subscription fees or the way every publisher jumped on the MMO bandwagon after WoW took off and they saw how much money blizzard was making.

I wish I knew why 'cause I believe the PC is still the best platform for new and unique games.

(Piracy IS theft!)

Consoles have always been more widespread than computers and have always had an edge in terms of the overall market.  In the late 90's and early 2000's when we had such great exclusives as the one's I mentioned above, a good gaming PC cost even more than they do today.  Those 3dFX voodoo cards were definetly not cheap.
Consoles do not compete with the PC market, they're two seperate markets really.  The decline of the PC gaming market is directly attributed to the decline in PC gamers willing to actually pay for their games.  Obviously we didn't see it during the last generation of gaming since the internet was too primitive for widespread file sharing.
MMORPG's are not the reason why PC gaming has declined, it's just that developers have taken a greater interest in the genre due to the threat of piracy being removed.  I hate it more than anyone as I have always despised MMORPG's but the sadly are the future of PC gaming.

[DragonRageGT]

Piracy is theft indeed. Point is... Piracy is to SELL CDs, DVDs and console games, from a press machine in China, all over the world! Actually, lots of press machines!!! I wonder who send the music, movies and games matrix to them though... anyone knows?



There was a "rumor", since I can't say what I know... that some high level people inside recording companies use to supply the matrix for those factories even before the CD is out in the market. They gain a lot more "net" and the artist gains nothing from it. You think it is different in the gaming industry?

[IAGTTBleed]

Piracy was huge before the internet. Everyone passing floppies around at school was really common. I don't think it's any bigger nowadays, just more noticeable.



Most MMO's are horrid. I'll pay for a game and play for free, I'll pay to play a game I got for free, but NEVER both. The only MMO I play is Guild Wars. Zero subscription fees FTW!



Instead of debating the cause, let's debate the possible fixes.



Do you think that registered user only content is part of the solution? Or maybe some kind of USB key that needs to be in the computer to play the game?

[DragonRageGT]

RageGT wrote...

foobar's thoughts on copy protection • Myths about DRM • A proposal for a better copy protection system

I think this proposal is genious. Sorry, I'm no tech guy. I write songs not academic essays so when it comes to those, my hats off to brilliant people who has decent ideas without appealing to Secu-frakin-ROM or stuff that does nothing other than penalize legit owners.

And I'm no skeptical like some. When some Harvard guy goes through all the trouble of researching as much as that guy has done, don't just tell me "I can find something like that saying the opposite"... show it! Else you're someone who just like to disagree with evidence even when evidence is biting you in the nose!

[Default137]

Oh my this thread went golden.



Borsh, take a look at every game made in the last three years, thats a nice number, and about the same amount of time doomsday people have started to suggest PC gaming is really starting to die to the 360 crowd, and developers will all start going 360 only.



If you take a look at all games made during this time, only about 3% of all of those games are console exclusive, of those about 1.5% end up getting re-released for the PC as well a very short time later, this trend has so far not broken at all, and in fact has rebound back to almost all titles being cross-platform, rather then purely 360 releases in the past year, with many games releasing on all three at once, although in some cases it is obvious the PC title was a quickly made port.



So uh, where are the developers who are turning to 360 only? The only ones I can think of that have actually made the switch totally are Bungie, Lionhead and probably Infinity Ward, due to how the PC community is treating them, and how they treated the PC community, very few other companies have made the switch to just one system, and most likely never will.



In terms of the PC market dying, once again, where are you getting your info? The PC market is actually thriving right now, while the 360 market is entering a calm before a very possible storm, building a PC has never been cheaper, homemade gaming computers these days only cost about $300-$500, when in the past getting a good gaming computer would be in the $800-$1500 range, and they will only keep getting cheaperto make. Meanwhile, Microsoft is working on the next version of the Xbox, and all evidence points to it releasing later this year with no backwards compatibility, and most likely a $500-$600 price tag slapped on it, how do you think the 360 community will handle that?



As for piracy rates, the info is literally right there, you don't even need to look at any other sites, do any fancy surveys, or talk to any experts, just load up The Pirate Bay, and look at the "total downloaded" column, on the side, if you add up all the numbers for 360 torrents, and all the numbers for the PC torrents, 360 users pirated TWICE as many copies as PC users, which makes it all the more ironic that Xbox 360 fans are trying to attack PC users in this thread over piracy.



This is not an uncommon occurence either, in many games, the rate of pirated 360 copies has steadily been rising, and recently it has as been pointed out reached and exceeded the PC pirate rate. and I expect as the pirates find better ways to modify their 360s, this will only get worse, as I mentioned, if you get your 360 modified and it passes a first sweep, you are in the clear forever, wheras with the PC, you are constantly under threat from your IP ratting out the fact you download something like 20+ gigs a month consistantly, visit sites like TBP, or all sorts of other things.



As for fixing the issue, there have been a number of things that seem to cause an influx of increased piracy, and a number of things that have decreased the number of total pirated copies, or increased the amount of games purchased after pirated download.



Things that reduced Piracy/Got people to buy the game.



- Showing you will Support the game in the long term



- Dedicated Multi ( with support )



- Keeping a Community up to date



- Interacting with a Community



- Having a good track record of making good games, with good support ( However, this will also most likely mean your games have a higher piracy rate then most )



- Releasing the game over all mediums, as well as worldwide at the same time, if the only way to play the game you have been wanting to play for several months is through Piracy, you will be more inclined the pirate it rather then buy it, this is why piracy rates in places like Russia are INSANE, because they get games something like 6-7 months after the rest of the world. This is also why games like PS:T and Baldurs Gate Trilogy often reach the top ten lists of pirated games, because nobody is selling them anymore, and thats the only way TO get them for many people.



Things that ended up increasing piracy in the long term



- Absurd DRM that either messes up the customers PC, or only gives them a specific amount of activations.



- Neglecting a community.



- Not supporting a game



- Segregating a Community



- Ignoring a Community



- Not making your game widely available.



To cite examples for all these, I will point to 5 specific games, Bioshock, MW2, Spore, World of Goo, and Zeno Clash. Bioshock, Spore, and MW2 all have the dubious honor of being given TorrentFreaks "Most Pirated Games of the Year" Award. So why would these specific games be given that honor, well, lets take a look at each one shall we? Bioshock and Spore, on release were almost impossible to play for the actual customer, many people could not get Bioshock to run due to the absurd DRM which wouldn't work with many systems, and with Spore, for many people, they only got one activation, or in some cases, got none at all, add in the pisspoor service and support the developers gave to those having trouble, and MANY people went off to pirate the game.



With MW2, Infinity Ward took out everything a PC game is expected to have, angering most of their PC fanbase, when people tried to reason with them, Infinity Ward exploded, and called them all names in the most childish manner, they started banning users who tried to make nice, they ignored people who tried to say reason, and basically acted like a kid having a tantrum.



Are these good reasons to pirate a game? Of course not, its stealing, and no matter how bad the other person has treated you, its not right to nick their stuff, especially stuff they worked hard on, which they have much more of a connection with then stuff they bought, it'd be like going to Da Vincis house because you are pissed he stole your lawnmower, and stealing the Mona Lisa out of anger.



However, they are reasons why people stole those games.



Now you might wonder, why did I bring up World of Goo and Zeno Clash, well you see, both of these are games with very very low total pirated counts, and very high/stable sales counts, obviously not as high as Dragon Age, but for the type of game they are, higher then most. Now the thing is, the developers of these games both have several things in common, they listen to the fans, they have continued to add more and more support to their games, they talk to their fans on a daily basis, they try to keep things going, answer questions that come up, all sorts of things.



I think the most telling thing though is with World of Goo, you see, they could tell when a pirate was playing their game, because although they could log on Multiplayer, they could not actually do anything in it, well, they recently came out and reported of all the pirates their game has had SEVENTY EIGHT PERCENT have ended up buying the game afterwards, and continuing to use the same account.



And now I'm rambling because its 6 AM, I need to go to bed.

[Rixxencaxx]

Ubisoft said assassin creed 2 sold 6 million....Why Dao sales are so secret???