328 réponses à ce sujet

[EpicBoot2daFace]

plnero wrote...

I don't mind men hitting on me; I can't help it if they're attracted to my good looks and colorful personality. I just don't want them to get pissed at me when I tell them I prefer the ladies.

That was another problem I had with DA2. You turn down someone you aren't interested in and you receive rivalry points. Why should I be punished for not pursuing a gay romance? The same could be said for people who do role play a gay character. They are punished for turning down a member of the opposite sex.

[DPSSOC]

Maclimes wrote...
Perhaps Fenris only like non-mages, regardless of other factors.

Perhaps Leliana only likes people who are loyal Andrastians, regardless of race or gender.

Perhaps Anders only likes light-skinned characters, regardless of gender or race.

Perhaps Alistair only likes human females who are loyal Andrastians.

Perhaps Cullen only likes blondes who are proficient warriors, no rogues or mages.

Perhaps Sigrun only likes dwarf warrior males named Maclimes because she's mine and you can't have her.

And this would be bad because...?  I'd actually love for this kind of thing to be thrown into the DA games it's awesome.  Bioware's great a writing characters and anything that lets them add another layer is golden as far as I'm concerned.  Now I wouldn't necessarily say if you weren't their type you couldn't romance them, more that you'd have to work for it.  DA:O did this well because in order to get a romance you had to make positive progress on the approval scale (Rivalmance confuses me).

Example if you're the kind hearted altruistic sort who believes in true love winning Leliana over is a snap, but getting Morrigan is more difficult because (assuming you don't abuse gifts) you lose so much approval with her for doing things like that.

So why not throw that into the game?  Give the Romanceables a preference (Diplomatic - Pro-Templar for example) and if you don't fit that preference you need to get a higher level of Friendship/Approval/Whatever to get the romance going and progressing.

Maclimes wrote...
What I'm saying is, drawing the line at gender preference is arbitrary and self-serving. It's better to just go with the "Everyone is hero-sexual", and give people options. The alternative is just over-simplification.

I disagree that drawing an arbitrary line on gender for preference is a greater over-simplification than everyone can sleep with everyone.  Just my thoughts.

TheFinalDoctor wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
The characters are not there to serve as my play things. They are supposed to be people with preferences, and that extends beyond sexual orientation. It could include one's favorite color or favorite ice cream. Would you deny them that preference just to make you happy? Could you be that selfish?

This. Even though it sounds strange, I kinda liked that on my femshep playthrough of ME3, that jacob dumped me. It was handled poorly, to be sure, but it did give a better illusion that ME is its own universe and that the characters make their own choices, not because the universe revolves around the the Player Character, but that each character has their own motives and preferences.

Or going after Traynor as a male shep and getting shot down. That was hillarious. Making all romances accessible to everyone denies us the opportunity of being turned down in humourous fashion, I disapprove. Case in point the most interesting romance option in DA2 for me was Aveline because you can pursue it, and pursue it and it never happens.

[Xilizhra]

Or going after Traynor as a male shep and getting shot down. That was hillarious. Making all romances accessible to everyone denies us the opportunity of being turned down in humourous fashion, I disapprove. Case in point the most interesting romance option in DA2 for me was Aveline because you can pursue it, and pursue it and it never happens.

That only worked in ME3 because the only new LIs they added at all were homosexual, purely for balance reasons. It wouldn't work in DA3. Now, if it's someone who turns everyone down, like Aveline, that'd be different (not to my taste, but I wouldn't actually object if it didn't remove a preexisting romance possibility).

That was another problem I had with DA2. You turn down someone you
aren't interested in and you receive rivalry points. Why should I be
punished for not pursuing a gay romance? The same could be said for
people who do role play a gay character. They are punished for turning
down a member of the opposite sex.

Trust me, I'd rather get hit on by ten thousand Anders' than lose the opportunity to romance Merrill.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 30 octobre 2012 - 12:53 .

[Aoiki]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

plnero wrote...

I don't mind men hitting on me; I can't help it if they're attracted to my good looks and colorful personality. I just don't want them to get pissed at me when I tell them I prefer the ladies.

That was another problem I had with DA2. You turn down someone you aren't interested in and you receive rivalry points. Why should I be punished for not pursuing a gay romance? The same could be said for people who do role play a gay character. They are punished for turning down a member of the opposite sex.

The only time I can think of that you were forced to choose between a flirt and a broken heart was at one point in with Anders, if memory serves (correct me if I'm wrong.  Haven't played male Hawke in a long time.  It's certainly true for femhawke, though).  Other than that, Bioware almost always gave you a third option that was niether flirting with a same sex character nor the complete shut down option.  As far as I can see, you didn't get rivalry points for refusing a gay romance.  You got them for being overly blunt/insensative about it.

[TheFinalDoctor]

Xilizhra wrote...

That only worked in ME3 because the only new LIs they added at all were homosexual, purely for balance reasons. It wouldn't work in DA3. Now, if it's someone who turns everyone down, like Aveline, that'd be different (not to my taste, but I wouldn't actually object if it didn't remove a preexisting romance possibility).

Why wouldn't it work? We're going to have all new romances this time, I'm sure.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Or going after Traynor as a male shep and getting shot down. That was hillarious. Making all romances accessible to everyone denies us the opportunity of being turned down in humourous fashion, I disapprove. Case in point the most interesting romance option in DA2 for me was Aveline because you can pursue it, and pursue it and it never happens.

That only worked in ME3 because the only new LIs they added at all were homosexual, purely for balance reasons. It wouldn't work in DA3. Now, if it's someone who turns everyone down, like Aveline, that'd be different (not to my taste, but I wouldn't actually object if it didn't remove a preexisting romance possibility).

Out of curiosity, why wouldn't it work?  I mean, if Traynor were introduced in ME2 or even ME1, would that make her shooting down male Shepards less humorous?

Personally, I'm for a variety of choices, and a variety of preferences.  By choosing to play a male mage character, I want that to influence who'd be interested in that character.  Or a female warrior.  or an Andrastrian, an elf, a templar, a dalish, you get the idea.  Granted this is a kind of a "pie in the sky, no way there's the budget for that kind of thing"  but I'd like to think potential LIs have some kind of standards 

[KENNY4753]

I did think it's funny how you could mage romance Fenris. What a hypocrite he turned out to be.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Or going after Traynor as a male shep and getting shot down. That was hillarious. Making all romances accessible to everyone denies us the opportunity of being turned down in humourous fashion, I disapprove. Case in point the most interesting romance option in DA2 for me was Aveline because you can pursue it, and pursue it and it never happens.

That only worked in ME3 because the only new LIs they added at all were homosexual, purely for balance reasons. It wouldn't work in DA3.

 
Why not?  I'm not talking about altering previously established bi sexual characters (All DA2 romances, Leliana, and Zevran) just make the new ones they throw in more selective.  If you don't have enough approval to pursue a relationship you get hillarious turn down (ok they don't all have to be hillarious), if you don't fit the character' preference you just need a higher Friendship/Approval/Etc. than if you do.

[Mims]

While some of those are probably going too far, I actually think its totally reasonable to have a character's alignment or class lock you out of a romance.

Actually, I kind of like that more than gender locks. I always thought it crazy when an otherwise 'noble' character romances a complete **** with absolutely no dialogue change.

[Aoiki]

KENNY4753 wrote...

I did think it's funny how you could mage romance Fenris. What a hypocrite he turned out to be.

Especially if you're a blood mage ^^"

[Allan Schumacher]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

plnero wrote...

I don't mind men hitting on me; I can't help it if they're attracted to my good looks and colorful personality. I just don't want them to get pissed at me when I tell them I prefer the ladies.

That was another problem I had with DA2. You turn down someone you aren't interested in and you receive rivalry points. Why should I be punished for not pursuing a gay romance? The same could be said for people who do role play a gay character. They are punished for turning down a member of the opposite sex.

First rivalry is not a punishment. it is just a reaction. Second it required a particular type of playthrough to even achieve the rivalry response.

[Xilizhra]

Out of curiosity, why wouldn't it work? I mean, if Traynor were introduced in ME2 or even ME1, would that make her shooting down male Shepards less humorous?

I could not possibly care less. I don't play Maleshep.

Why not? I'm not talking about altering previously established bi sexual characters (All DA2 romances, Leliana, and Zevran) just make the new ones they throw in more selective. If you don't have enough approval to pursue a relationship you get hillarious turn down (ok they don't all have to be hillarious), if you don't fit the character' preference you just need a higher Friendship/Approval/Etc. than if you do.

So what you're saying is that you could romance anyone regardless of gender still, it just might require higher approval ratings?

[Wulfram]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

First rivalry is not a punishment. it is just a reaction. Second it required a particular type of playthrough to even achieve the rivalry response.

In fact what it required was the sort of playthrough where rivalry was indeed a punishment.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

plnero wrote...

I don't mind men hitting on me; I can't help it if they're attracted to my good looks and colorful personality. I just don't want them to get pissed at me when I tell them I prefer the ladies.

That was another problem I had with DA2. You turn down someone you aren't interested in and you receive rivalry points. Why should I be punished for not pursuing a gay romance? The same could be said for people who do role play a gay character. They are punished for turning down a member of the opposite sex.

First rivalry is not a punishment. it is just a reaction. Second it required a particular type of playthrough to even achieve the rivalry response.

Why does the character have to react in a negative way at all? If you tell someone who is gay IRL that you "just want to be friends" or that you're straight, they don't react in a negative way. It shouldn't be any different in a video game.

If I tell a character I'm not interested, I gain rivalry points. The "I'm not interested" response usually has a picture of a broken heart in the center. Why should it be a broken heart, and why does that option earn a negative response? I'm not being aggressive, I'm simply letting the other character know that I'm not interested in any kind of romantic pursuit.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 30 octobre 2012 - 01:23 .

[Xilizhra]

Why does the character have to react in a negative way at all? If you tell someone who is gay IRL that you "just want to be friends" or that you're straight, they don't react in a negative way. It shouldn't be any different in a video game.

The problem is with Hawke's line, which is quite rudely phrased. This doesn't happen with the other three LIs.

[Aoiki]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

plnero wrote...

I don't mind men hitting on me; I can't help it if they're attracted to my good looks and colorful personality. I just don't want them to get pissed at me when I tell them I prefer the ladies.

That was another problem I had with DA2. You turn down someone you aren't interested in and you receive rivalry points. Why should I be punished for not pursuing a gay romance? The same could be said for people who do role play a gay character. They are punished for turning down a member of the opposite sex.

First rivalry is not a punishment. it is just a reaction. Second it required a particular type of playthrough to even achieve the rivalry response.

Why does the character have to react in a negative way at all? If you tell someone who is gay IRL that you "just want to be friends" or that you're straight, they don't react in a negative way. It shouldn't be any different in a video game.

If I tell a character I'm not interested, I gain rivalry points. The "I'm not interested" response usually has a picture of a broken heart in the center. Why should it be a broken heart, and why does that option earn a negative response? I'm not being aggressive, I'm simply letting the other character know that I'm not interested in any kind of romantic pursuit.

It makes sense to me.  If you shut anyone down after they hit on you, they're going to feel bad unless they're particularly cavalier about relationships in general.  Real life or not.  As far as I see it, that's why you had the third option.  To steer the conversation in a different direction without being blunt about it.  They generally got the message, no rivalry points required.  The LIs in DA2 are sensative people (even Isabella, though she might argue otherwise )

[Realmzmaster]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...


Why does the character have to react in a negative way at all? If you tell someone who is gay IRL that you "just want to be friends" or that you're straight, they don't react in a negative way. It shouldn't be any different in a video game.

If I tell a character I'm not interested, I gain rivalry points. The "I'm not interested" response usually has a picture of a broken heart in the center. Why should it be a broken heart, and why does that option earn a negative response? I'm not being aggressive, I'm simply letting the other character know that I'm not interested in any kind of romantic pursuit.

Actually some do react in a negative way IRL and let it be known what they think about the response that was received.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 30 octobre 2012 - 01:34 .

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why not? I'm not talking about altering previously established bi sexual characters (All DA2 romances, Leliana, and Zevran) just make the new ones they throw in more selective. If you don't have enough approval to pursue a relationship you get hillarious turn down (ok they don't all have to be hillarious), if you don't fit the character' preference you just need a higher Friendship/Approval/Etc. than if you do.

So what you're saying is that you could romance anyone regardless of gender still, it just might require higher approval ratings?

More or less.  I'm not saying make preference a wall, something that can never be surmounted, at least not all the time.  I'm saying make it a hurdle, something the player and the character have to overcome together in order to get what they want.  DA2 didn't make me work for the romances so I don't feel any sense of accomplishment, achievement, or even satisfaction.  Even when Isabela breaks down and admits she does want a relationship with Hawke I didn't feel anything because I didn't have to do anything.  All I had to do was not say, "Yeah it was just sex" and not give her to the Qunari, that's it.

Making everyone mindlessly attracted to the PC just doesn't jive because these are people with personalities and even if you're the kind of person they normally despise they'll still go along with the romance with no change.  Give the character's preferences, some set in stone some not, so that we get an actual sense of two people coming to care for one another rather than someone picking up an exceptionally affectionate puppy.

[Xilizhra]

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why not? I'm not talking about altering previously established bi sexual characters (All DA2 romances, Leliana, and Zevran) just make the new ones they throw in more selective. If you don't have enough approval to pursue a relationship you get hillarious turn down (ok they don't all have to be hillarious), if you don't fit the character' preference you just need a higher Friendship/Approval/Etc. than if you do.

So what you're saying is that you could romance anyone regardless of gender still, it just might require higher approval ratings?

More or less.  I'm not saying make preference a wall, something that can never be surmounted, at least not all the time.  I'm saying make it a hurdle, something the player and the character have to overcome together in order to get what they want.  DA2 didn't make me work for the romances so I don't feel any sense of accomplishment, achievement, or even satisfaction.  Even when Isabela breaks down and admits she does want a relationship with Hawke I didn't feel anything because I didn't have to do anything.  All I had to do was not say, "Yeah it was just sex" and not give her to the Qunari, that's it.

Making everyone mindlessly attracted to the PC just doesn't jive because these are people with personalities and even if you're the kind of person they normally despise they'll still go along with the romance with no change.  Give the character's preferences, some set in stone some not, so that we get an actual sense of two people coming to care for one another rather than someone picking up an exceptionally affectionate puppy.

This is possible, but I'm not sure if it'd be a wise area to spend more resources in. Also, never make any gender preferences set in stone... and in that case, I could possibly accept it, but I'm still not sure if it's a good idea. And I wasn't pursuing romances for a sense of accomplishment, but because I just wanted my PC and my LI to be happy together.

[Dave of Canada]

Allan Schumacher wrote...


First rivalry is not a punishment. it is just a reaction.

It's a shame people associate red with bad, I'd wonder how it would change if it were green or something instead.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...


First rivalry is not a punishment. it is just a reaction.

It's a shame people associate red with bad, I'd wonder how it would change if it were green or something instead.

Red has been associated with negativity for... a very, very long time. Probably due to its association with blood.

[Sylvianus]

Knight of Dane wrote...

No they didn't Sylvianus, individual developers have said that him/her/they preferred the Mass Effect way of offering all kinds of sexuality but that the all bi path is a easier alternative that satisfies just as many people.

Excuse me, that is exactly what I was saying. That's why we will have this system. This is the easiest way, why would they choose otherwise ?

And when I'm reading David gaider , the lines are, " the first way is maybe better but almost impossible because of resources... " To me it's pretty clear.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 octobre 2012 - 01:51 .

[Battlebloodmage]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...


First rivalry is not a punishment. it is just a reaction.

It's a shame people associate red with bad, I'd wonder how it would change if it were green or something instead.

Not on a pregnancy test, it's not.

[silentassassin264]

 

David Gaider wrote...

I'm not sure that racial options are the only other things that add replayability, but sure. I get that. We do make the game with the knowledge that the vast majority of our players only play the game once (if they finish it at all) and thus replayability isn't as high a priority as the player having agency and options within that first playthrough (as well as having a length that is appropriate for a meaty RPG) -- but it's still important. I guess we'll see how that goes once the reveal begins.

Bioware acknowledges that they only expect us to play the game once.  If they make the game maximizing everything for one playthrough, it makes no sense to make LIs X specific.  What if you play the game and start enjoying your mage Hawke and then you meet Fenris and are smitten as soon as he opens his mouth and you hear that sexy voice.  If Fenris is not an available LI for mages then you are forcing someone to play as another character for "replayability" when they are acknowledging that that isn't their policy.  I don't mind if you make LIs have a preference and mages may have to talk to Fenris more, bring him along with them more, or something like that for him to open up to their mage character but outright cutting of Lis for not meeting some character creation criteria is a ridiculous waste of resources.

[General User]

It just seemed a bit jarring to me that characters who were otherwise whole, with their own appearances, histories, personalities, etc. have their sexual preferences essentially left blank until the player fills them in.

What makes a character's sexual orientation so important that it, and it alone, must wait for the player's say so before taking shape?

Origins did romances right.