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Children in DA3


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#26
AmstradHero

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Savber100 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

There was barely anyone in Kirkwall.

"There's no more room" ----- What a joke. Bioware is just lazy.


Lazy? Seriously?

Frack that. 

(Sorry it just irritates me when gamers go accusing developers of laziness just because of a feature that was not implemented.) =]

Lack of people, large bland unpopulated areas, reused maps, a city that pretty much stayed static for an entire decade... as someone who mods and loves game design - sorry, but that was lazy design.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 30 octobre 2012 - 05:12 .


#27
Gamemako

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Dhiro wrote...

The game forces us to murder people to progress, yes... but the same can't be said about rape. Which is why I singled out that specific bit and not the mass murderer one - you can't help but being a mass murderer, but being a rapist (and then, it can only happen in the player's headcanon) is a choice the player takes. And that's creepy.

Am I making sense?


I'm not talking about Dragon Age in the first place. Dragon Age lets you take some really vicious actions (e.g. the blood ritual in the Alienage), but it still keeps you on a leash. Regardless, this is totally missing the point. The problem is that you can be an evil monster, the stuff of nightmares, but the game then draws the bizarre line of adults-but-not-children.

(Rape is not OK at all, ever. That much should be obvious. I'm jus going to edit that post to remove mention, because people seem to have taken it the wrong way. But isn't it a bit ****ed up that everyone knows what you mean when you talk about slaughtering innocent people as a pastime?)

Modifié par Gamemako, 30 octobre 2012 - 05:15 .


#28
Dhiro

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Gamemako wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

The game forces us to murder people to progress, yes... but the same can't be said about rape. Which is why I singled out that specific bit and not the mass murderer one - you can't help but being a mass murderer, but being a rapist (and then, it can only happen in the player's headcanon) is a choice the player takes. And that's creepy.

Am I making sense?


I'm not talking about Dragon Age in the first place. Dragon Age lets you take some really vicious actions (e.g. the blood ritual in the Alienage), but it still keeps you on a leash. Regardless, this is totally missing the point. The problem is that you can be an evil monster, the stuff of nightmares, but the game then draws the bizarre line of adults-but-not-children.

(Rape is not OK at all, ever. That much should be obvious. I'm jus going to edit that post to remove mention, because people seem to have taken it the wrong way. But isn't it a bit ****ed up that everyone knows what you mean when you talk about slaughtering innocent people as a pastime?)


I believe that games that shown children being killed on-screen are forbidden in... Germany? That's something to consider. That aside, we can kill Connor - or even make his mother do that for us, I think - and sell a little girl's body to a Desire Spirit. Both happen in DA: O. I suppose BioWare prefers to keep their children murdering bits when they decide they're really in the mood of kicking the dog.

That's for DA, of course. I can't really speak for other games since not many of them have children to begin with.

#29
Guest_Mikael_Sebastia_*

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Emzamination wrote...

I hated children in origins, glad they didn't make a return in Da2. I still harbor cold feelings against those invincible mage children that vanished into thin air in circle tower the second I stated I would kill every mage in said tower.

Talk about immersion breaking...


Interesting. This isn’t a joke? Is that really what happens, if you choose to go along with the expedited Right of Annulment? (No, this isn’t a rhetoric question, I really don’t know, since I never did it. Only played DAO two times through and the planning for the third, when I can spare time for it).

#30
Dhiro

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Mikael_Sebastia wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I hated children in origins, glad they didn't make a return in Da2. I still harbor cold feelings against those invincible mage children that vanished into thin air in circle tower the second I stated I would kill every mage in said tower.

Talk about immersion breaking...


Interesting. This isn’t a joke? Is that really what happens, if you choose to go along with the expedited Right of Annulment? (No, this isn’t a rhetoric question, I really don’t know, since I never did it. Only played DAO two times through and the planning for the third, when I can spare time for it).


Yeah. I don't remember the details, but the children Wynne was protecting decided to go poof as soon as the killing started.



#31
Eveangaline

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AmstradHero wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

There was barely anyone in Kirkwall.

"There's no more room" ----- What a joke. Bioware is just lazy.


Lazy? Seriously?

Frack that. 

(Sorry it just irritates me when gamers go accusing developers of laziness just because of a feature that was not implemented.) =]

Lack of people, large bland unpopulated areas, reused maps, a city that pretty much stayed static for an entire decade... as someone who mods and loves game design - sorry, but that was lazy design.


I wouldn't say lazy so much as rushed. It's not that they didn't want to do it, it's that they put it out so quickly they didn't have time

#32
mesmerizedish

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Dhiro wrote...

Yeah. I don't remember the details, but the children Wynne was protecting decided to go poof as soon as the killing started.


The details are that Gaider said they didn't want to show children's death on-screen, period. Whether or not your character actually kills children herself, the children ARE killed during the Annulment. They just didn't want to show it, because they're not dark, gritty, and mature, like CDPR.

#33
Gamemako

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Dhiro wrote...

I believe that games that shown children being killed on-screen are forbidden in... Germany? That's something to consider.


That... would not surprise me in the least, considering the many things they have legislated with regard to video games. Additionally, you could be worried about the ESRB passing down an AO (something normally reserved for the gut-wrenching horrors of Manhunt 2 might be applied to mundane violence) and the media going ape**** (because Jack Thompson possesses the moral reasoning of a four-year-old). However, both of these are rather conditional.

Dhiro wrote...

That aside, we can kill Connor - or even make his mother do that for us, I think - and sell a little girl's body to a Desire Spirit. Both happen in DA: O. I suppose BioWare prefers to keep their children murdering bits when they decide they're really in the mood of kicking the dog.


This is true, though Connor is all but collateral damage in a fight against a demon. The kitty episode is definitely pretty dastardly, but doesn't involve actual violence against a child.

Anyway, TVTropes always has guidance!

#34
Dhiro

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Yeah. I don't remember the details, but the children Wynne was protecting decided to go poof as soon as the killing started.


The details are that Gaider said they didn't want to show children's death on-screen, period. Whether or not your character actually kills children herself, the children ARE killed during the Annulment. They just didn't want to show it, because they're not dark, gritty, and mature, like CDPR.


That makes sense. Thanks, ish!

#35
AmstradHero

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Eveangaline wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

Savber100 wrote...
Lazy? Seriously?
Frack that. 
(Sorry it just irritates me when gamers go accusing developers of laziness just because of a feature that was not implemented.) =]

Lack of people, large bland unpopulated areas, reused maps, a city that pretty much stayed static for an entire decade... as someone who mods and loves game design - sorry, but that was lazy design.

I wouldn't say lazy so much as rushed. It's not that they didn't want to do it, it's that they put it out so quickly they didn't have time

For a developer as big as EA BioWare, that's the same thing. A rushed job is simply being too lazy to do it properly. Maintaining a reputation and brand image is more important than getting the product out the door on a set date, and if no-one pushed back on the release date for that, then they simply weren't doing their job properly.

The level design issues were blatantly obvious and annoying to pretty much everyone who played the game, so there is really no excuse for it.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 30 octobre 2012 - 06:16 .


#36
Amycus89

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Savber100 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

There was barely anyone in Kirkwall.

"There's no more room" ----- What a joke. Bioware is just lazy.


Lazy? Seriously?

Frack that. 

(Sorry it just irritates me when gamers go accusing developers of laziness just because of a feature that was not implemented.) =]

Lazy? no. But the game was definetely rushed.

Aside from children, there weren't even any female dwarves. Instead, when the situation called for it, they placed a female elf in a dwarven family.

#37
Guest_Mikael_Sebastia_*

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Dhiro wrote...
Yeah. I don't remember the details, but the children Wynne was protecting decided to go poof as soon as the killing started.

God Damn prkl. Just when I thought there was one gaming company in the world, who would have the intelligence and balls to handle these hefty and dismal subjects they sow around. Without ignoring them, when murdering actually might become a bit disturbing or difficult for PC. (Bosh! Flimshaw! Yeah I know, you say murder I say a combat encounter, regardless of the context!) Or it resorting to a gameplay splatter, or a totally exaggerated comical villainy (haha, I shan’t just kill these magelings. but sell them to Tevinter slavers with the two sovereign contribution margin!).

Good to know that one can do a purge without actually soiling your magical sword or without the need for silently whispering at the end “its Makers will and for the greater good”. According the lore I’d always imagined a bit different than a boxing match with a full-grown totally self-defense capable equals. More something like dragging fearful children out of their beds and defenseless mages of cabinets. With an occasional organized resistance, a blood magic and possession here and there (well the Ferelden Circle was a tad bit exceptional situation, but the principle remains).

Or what am I complaining about, because they might’ve just as well cut their wrists open and turn into an abominations, just like that. Providing us an awkward but reasonable cause to hack them to pieces with a conscience (everyone loves boss fights after all), also contributing us some well-earned loot and XP..... Alright… Rant over, and sorry folks, but I seriously thought Bioware could have done better than just make them disappear / make them mysteriously "missing in action", without a trifle of responsibility falling for one making the decision for so.

(Yeah, and for the record Broken Circle was an exceptionally well done quest by all regards, compared to anything ever done in a computer roleplaying games. Also for Bioware’s honor I have to add that so far none of the competitors is doing anything better or even tried that much. Plus, I too might actually consider more than twice before adding an infanticide to CRPG, if I was ever so unlucky to find myself in a position to actually decide upon that. As a crude abstraction of the subject; that’s pretty heavy stuff after all. Anyway, gladly there is a literature, cinema and pen&paper RPGs for these “different needs”).

Modifié par Mikael_Sebastia, 30 octobre 2012 - 07:35 .


#38
Maria Caliban

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Dhiro wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Eh. Dragon Age is a series fully committed to the idea of non-persons. It's okay to rain fire on their heads, hit them so hard they explode in a burst of blood, or fill them full of arrows. Not only does the game suggest that this is a morally neutral action, but you have to do it if you want to complete the game.

If you embrace the idea that it's fine to hideously murder people because they're bad or dangerous, I don't see anything odd about the idea that it's fine to rape someone because they're bad or dangerous.

The problem isn't that we find rape disturbing. It's that we find the killing not disturbing and the game never questions it.

The game forces us to murder people to progress, yes... but the same can't be said about rape. Which is why I singled out that specific bit and not the mass murderer one - you can't help but being a mass murderer, but being a rapist (and then, it can only happen in the player's headcanon) is a choice the player takes. And that's creepy.

Am I making sense?

Are you suggesting that if Dragon Age forced you to rape someone to finish the game, wanting to rape characters would be fine?

#39
AmstradHero

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Mikael_Sebastia wrote...
(Yeah, and for the record Broken Circle was an exceptionally well done quest by all regards, compared to anything ever done in a computer roleplaying games. Also for Bioware’s honor I have to add that so far none of the competitors is doing anything better or even trying that much. Plus, I too might actually consider more than twice before adding an infanticide to CRPG, if I was ever so unlucky to find myself in a position to actually decide upon that. As a crude abstraction of the subject; that’s pretty heavy stuff after all. Anyway, gladly there is a literature, cinema and pen&paper RPGs for these “different needs”).

There have been plenty of games where we've been able to do really undesirable and "offensive" things. Yes, often it's very confronting, but it's an interesting exploration of the human psyche.

I wrote a very confronting sidequest for a NWN2 module called Fate of a City. In this quest, a father and his daughter were gravely ill and would die without player intervention. The player could extort additional payment from the parents for a cure (more than they needed), pay for the cure at considerable personal expense. It was possible for the player to end up deliberately killing both of them (after promising to cure them if they so desired), to make a profit from an alchemist who wanted to know more about their illness. It was a difficult thing to write, but it posed some really full on moral questions and allowed the player to behave in a truly heinous way if they so desired - all of which players really appreciated.

One of the things I found increasingly less enjoyable in Mass Effect was the "watering down" of renegade choices that renegade Shepard just ended up being a jerk rather than truly cold-hearted in pursuit of their goal. I like being given the option to take the action that could be considered horrible, especially when it's possible to roleplay that choice in a way that isn't just being evil for evil's sake.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 30 octobre 2012 - 07:18 .


#40
Chaos Lord Malek

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Emzamination wrote...

I hated children in origins, glad they didn't make a return in Da2. I still harbor cold feelings against those invincible mage children that vanished into thin air in circle tower the second I stated I would kill every mage in said tower.

Talk about immersion breaking...


This.

It was so stupid. Comeon, invincible children doesn't belong to a story driven game(In origins you could already kill Conor so what's up with this?). When we say we kill them, we kill them. (Just look at the Fallout 2, children theives were all over Den, till my Slaver came and blast their heads with shotgun.)

Modifié par Chaos Lord Malek, 30 octobre 2012 - 08:01 .


#41
Yalision

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I believe Dragon Age II in a bit of a rush myself. The act of reusing areas of the game made making it much easier against those constraints I imagine. At least now they have the time to develop a proper sequel. Dragon Age II felt more like an interlude than a true follow-up. I did enjoy Dragon Age II, but it did not meet expectations. The scarcity of children wasn't even on my radar. I hated the bland, generic items like Ring, Belt, etc. with a passion. I was obviously displeased with the rehashed areas, it really destroyed immersion on more than one occasion. The idea that my opponents would explode upon being touched by my weapon or falling out of the sky didn't work for me either.

One thing I did particularly enjoy was the friendship/rivalry system. For the longest time I didn't realize I could get someone to love me as a rival, though. I think it could have been explained better to players. I also enjoyed the combat, it was great. The animations given to rogues and mages was a real improvement in my opinion. The skill trees were a neat idea that I think they should continue forward with as well. But children? I can think of more pressing issues.

#42
iSignIn

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We need more than children. We need armies of children.


Modifié par iSignIn, 30 octobre 2012 - 09:02 .


#43
nightscrawl

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Josielyn wrote...

Is it just me, or did anyone else notice the scarcity of children in DA2?  Will some attention be paid to this little detail in DA3?  It just seemed very unnerving to me that there weren't more kids running around in Kirkwall in the daytime.  There weren't any Dalish children in Sundermount either. And what does a Dwarven child look like nowadays?  In DAO they were part of families, or there were some quests related to helping them, but I can only remember 1 or 2 in DA2 (smuggler's quest).    Maybe Morrigan's Old God Baby will be the 1 child that we do see in DA3?  How about Alistair and Anora having a child? 

So let's talk about where we actually did see children in Dragon Age...

DAO: The only models of children were a human boy and girl, and there were a few varieties of face/hair combos. I know there was at least one elven girl in Lothering, and may have been an additional one or two with the Brecellian Forest Dalish elves or the Circle -- but as we know, DAO elves were basically smaller humans with pointed ears and slighter frames, so these children had the same bodies as the human children, with pointed ears added.

You are right in that the children, clonish though they were, were sprinkled throughout DAO: Lothering, the Circle, and Denerim being the most noted locations. There were also some quests involving them: two in Redcliffe with Connor and Bevin, and in in The Stone Prisoner DLC with Amalia (I can haz girl?) There are also other children that you can talk to in the Human Noble origin, Lothering, and Haven who have extended conversations.

There were no dwarven children in either game. The quest An Unlikely Scholar has you helping a young dwarf, Dagna. She is presented as young, yes, but not as a child. She has the same model as any female dwarf.

DA2: As I recall, there were a couple of children with the similar DAO models in Darktown as pointed out by Melca earlier in the thread. For quests involving actual children you have Loose Ends (dependent on picking Smuggler over Mercenary at the beginning) where you meet a boy you can help, and On the Loose where you meet two youths (one who is an actual child) that Evelina is caring for.

I think that Lia can be counted as an elven child. I would say early teens for her, certainly younger than any of the other female elves we meet in DA2.

The two young dwarves you are sent after in Fool's Gold are likewise not children, only reckless youths.

(If I've forgotten any others, feel free to note them)


The main difference between the games is that there are not a lot of extraneous children running around in DA2, so I feel that their lack of presence is more noticeable for people who care about such things. I do not. In fact, I would prefer that DAO had half as many children.

As Challseus points out...

Challseus wrote...

As a user of the toolset, let me tell you, only have 2 children models (1 boy, 1 girl), and like 5-6 face morphs is hella annoying. If I could at least change their clothing, I would have been fine with that...

The models for DAO children were really redundant. I would prefer they have fewer children if they are going to go this route in order to save resources on non-essentials, than have more children who look like clones.

In general, I felt that the whole of Kirkwall was underpopulated. From the supposedly bustling trade areas in Lowtown and Hightown, to the crowded refugees in Darktown. The city guards at the beginning talk as though Kirkwall has been flooded by refugees, but we don't really see evidence of that other than two instances where there are relatively small lines of people waiting around.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 30 octobre 2012 - 09:52 .


#44
Palipride47

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Josielyn wrote...

What is funny is I just noticed another thread called "Reproduction" that kind of relates to this. Maybe the Blight rendered everyone infertile? Something in the water?


It's the lyrium in the water.....

Seriously, maybe Hawke killed them all?

Remember, the Dragon Age series is "dark fantasy" so along with rape, racism, terroism and addiction, you also need infanticide and child slaying. :D

(yes, I added a smiley face next to child killing, its supposed to be a joke face, I do not approve of pixellated or real child killing. Unless the kid is possessed by a plot element)

#45
Darth Death

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Children are annoying. That's the only good trait DA2 had, by leaving them out.

#46
TMZuk

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The invincible children is a super-annoying thread in modern day games. It's ridiculous that you allowed to slaughter grown-ups in heaps, but as soon as it's a child, it's a crime. Catering to Political Correctnes is the death of art, and since Bioware considers video-games an art form, they should consider this.

I miss games like Fallout 2, where you could kill - or not kill - anyone you liked.

And for the record, I don't particularly -want- to kill children. But I want for the possibility to be there.

I also don't want to kill bystanders, but it annoyed me no end, when in DA2 you'd fight in the middle of a crowd, and not only would no bystander be harmed, they wouldn't even react. Talk about an immersion-killer.

Modifié par TMZuk, 30 octobre 2012 - 01:13 .


#47
Teddie Sage

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The less children NPCs there will be, the better. It will give some players some sick ideas... We're not going there but I think BioWare knows exactly what I'm talking about.

#48
TMZuk

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Teddie Sage wrote...

The less children NPCs there will be, the better. It will give some players some sick ideas... We're not going there but I think BioWare knows exactly what I'm talking about.


You mean that whole-sale slaughter of grownups is not sick?

#49
Teddie Sage

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TMZuk wrote...

Teddie Sage wrote...

The less children NPCs there will be, the better. It will give some players some sick ideas... We're not going there but I think BioWare knows exactly what I'm talking about.


You mean that whole-sale slaughter of grownups is not sick?


You're reasoning lacks the fact kids are defenceless in its equation while full grown adults can defend themselves better.

#50
Potato Cat

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Josielyn wrote...

Is it just me, or did anyone else notice the scarcity of children in DA2?  Will some attention be paid to this little detail in DA3?  It just seemed very unnerving to me that there weren't more kids running around in Kirkwall in the daytime.  There weren't any Dalish children in Sundermount either. And what does a Dwarven child look like nowadays?  In DAO they were part of families, or there were some quests related to helping them, but I can only remember 1 or 2 in DA2 (smuggler's quest).    Maybe Morrigan's Old God Baby will be the 1 child that we do see in DA3?  How about Alistair and Anora having a child? 


Well the fact both Alistair and Anora are both effectively infertile makes this unlikely. It was one of the reasons Cailan was planning to leave her for the Empress of Orlais. I honestly think the writers are setting up a conflict for future games, or maybe even DA3, as the throne of Fereldan has no real heirs, (unless you count the not-always-canon OGB, but Morrigan seems to have bigger plans for him).