244 réponses à ce sujet

[ioannisdenton]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

I think people who aren't aware should know that the Mass Effect team and Dragon Age team are two entirely different teams.

Bolded, italicized, and underscored for emphasis.

-Looks at DA2 dialogue system-

Don't tell me that means they don't learn from each other's games.

Υeah dragona ge was mass effected and ME3 was dragonagefied . sadly.
Each game should be different apart from the core rpg

[Maclimes]

Watch one of the panels they did, in which the lead developers specifically mention the lessons they learned from previous games, especially DA2.

Here's the PAX Panel: 

And here's another small panel from the NYCC:

There. OP's question actually answered.

Modifié par Maclimes, 30 octobre 2012 - 06:48 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

-Looks at DA2 dialogue system-

Don't tell me that means they don't learn from each other's games.

Game devs can take ideas from other games if they wish to (not limited to games made by their own publisher), if it's something that they can work with and make use for themselves.  This does not mean, however, that Mass Effect or Dragon Age's developers were somehow in league with one another and working on each other's games.  Nor does it mean their development teams are anything like one another's.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 30 octobre 2012 - 06:55 .

[Farbautisonn]

Maclimes wrote...

Watch one of the panels they did, in which the lead developers specifically mention the lessons they learned from previous games, especially DA2.

Here's the PAX Panel: 

And here's another small panel from the NYCC:

There. OP's question actually answered.

Nope. Not answered. What I got out of that was alot of noncommital "Might" and "watch us". Whilst I really and truely appreciate the latter bit, its not reassuring given the recent history. I simply do not trust Bioware to deliver, despite their wellmeaning words.

I know that the DA3 team isnt = the ME3 team, and that they cannot be "held accountable" for ME3. But... They delivered DA2. They delivered rehashed level designs and (in my opinion) not very well thought out DLC for DA:O and a DA2 that was not really what alot of DA:O afficionados were looking for. 

I didnt create this thread to slam the DA3 team. Im sure they are doing the best within the constraints of their budgets, time and planning. And I think most loved DA:O. Some even enjoyed the DA2 DLC. I never got around to it. I tired of DA2 20 minutes into the gameplay. I was never really able to enter what writers call "suspension of disbelief" and feel that the toon was "mine". Im not the only one with that experience.

I am however very concerned with "streamlining" and the effect it has on "storytelling". Streamlining has so far ment that the storytelling has been on the backburner for action and nice visual effects. Both for DA2 and for ME3. And its been a hefty staple of the DLC. More action and hefty effects to gloss over a story that was less than up to par when compared to DA:O. I see little evidence and I have heard few (if any) statements that would cause me to reevaluate my presumption that DA3 will  be "more of the same" rather than "a return to old values".

I would like for the Dev team to try to dispell my concerns. They are, after all, concerns shared by many.

[Maclimes]

Farbautisonn wrote...
I would like for the Dev team to try to dispell my concerns.

How so? What, exactly, do you want them to do?

They have outright said they will not be giving any details of the game until they are ready to release that information.

What would they have to say/show/do that would convince you? You already said you don't trust them. So what do they have to do? I don't understand what you want.

[Maria Caliban]

Wear some hair shirts.
Shave their head and cover it in ashes.
Self-flagellate.
Beg for forgiveness
Promise to never again stray from whatever rigid formula the OP thinks 'true' RPGs adhere to.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 30 octobre 2012 - 08:03 .

[Fiddzz]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Watch one of the panels they did, in which the lead developers specifically mention the lessons they learned from previous games, especially DA2.

Here's the PAX Panel: 

And here's another small panel from the NYCC:

There. OP's question actually answered.

Nope. Not answered. What I got out of that was alot of noncommital "Might" and "watch us". Whilst I really and truely appreciate the latter bit, its not reassuring given the recent history. I simply do not trust Bioware to deliver, despite their wellmeaning words.

I know that the DA3 team isnt = the ME3 team, and that they cannot be "held accountable" for ME3. But... They delivered DA2. They delivered rehashed level designs and (in my opinion) not very well thought out DLC for DA:O and a DA2 that was not really what alot of DA:O afficionados were looking for. 

I didnt create this thread to slam the DA3 team. Im sure they are doing the best within the constraints of their budgets, time and planning. And I think most loved DA:O. Some even enjoyed the DA2 DLC. I never got around to it. I tired of DA2 20 minutes into the gameplay. I was never really able to enter what writers call "suspension of disbelief" and feel that the toon was "mine". Im not the only one with that experience.

I am however very concerned with "streamlining" and the effect it has on "storytelling". Streamlining has so far ment that the storytelling has been on the backburner for action and nice visual effects. Both for DA2 and for ME3. And its been a hefty staple of the DLC. More action and hefty effects to gloss over a story that was less than up to par when compared to DA:O. I see little evidence and I have heard few (if any) statements that would cause me to reevaluate my presumption that DA3 will  be "more of the same" rather than "a return to old values".

I would like for the Dev team to try to dispell my concerns. They are, after all, concerns shared by many.

It seems like what you want from us is "the game" or atleast a detailed list of all the features, story plots, artwork, videos etc etc to prove its a good game... which we can't do at this time.

We can't say more than what has already been released in Marks Blog, as well as the few tidbits that are said in twitter feeds or at con's, etc.

If what has already been stated doesnt dispell your concerns, then sorry, you will have to wait for the announce and eventual release of the game before that will happen.

There seems to be a lot of negitivity on these forums, whether true or not, thats what it looks like from a dev's perspective.  People are assuming that we arn't trying to make an amazing game or something, I really don't know.

What I can say for fact, (I don't know if it will quell anyones concerns or not) is that walking down these halls, seeing the passion, and excitement everyone has for this game, the extra hours, hard work, and effort that is being put into it... Sends chills up my spine sometimes.  

It's going to be an amazing game and we can't wait to share it with our fans, who are just as passionate as us.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Farbautisonn wrote...
I want to know how precisely you plan to avoid the critizism/discourse, that followed these games.

Obviously I'm not one of BioWare's writers, but I will say this: it's impossible to avoid criticismsince nothing one does can please everybody, every single time. How good something ends up being is not generally objective, but down to individual opinion.

Discourse is unavoidable since no matter how well received something is, people are going to discuss it.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 30 octobre 2012 - 08:34 .

[Maclimes]

Blair Brown wrote...

What I can say for fact, (I don't know if it will quell anyones concerns or not) is that walking down these halls, seeing the passion, and excitement everyone has for this game, the extra hours, hard work, and effort that is being put into it... Sends chills up my spine sometimes.  

It's going to be an amazing game and we can't wait to share it with our fans, who are just as passionate as us.

Now I'm even more excited! Thanks, Blair!

Clarification because of the vague nature of Internet communication: That was not sarcasm. I know there's a lot of negativity on BSN, but that's because people who are happy rarely say so. Human nature, I'm afraid.

Modifié par Maclimes, 30 octobre 2012 - 08:16 .

[Foolsfolly]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Im asking this question because:

I would like to know. I think it would be interesting to hear from the dev team and the writers, what, if anything, they learned from DA2 (everything in between) to ME3. I want to know how precisely you plan to avoid the critizism/discourse, that followed these games. I am genuinely interested. There must be some things you learned, some things you will not do, some things you will do again and expand upon.

But mostly I want to know because, whilst I am critical, I do want DA3 to succeed for you guys.

My first response to this is... well this:

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

-sigh-

But I don't think that explains it enough. Your title is rather aggressive. Like they're a pet and you're rubbing their nose in their mess and asking them what did you learn?

Secondly I believe their response should be DA3 itself. If that game fails you then you have your answer. If it's a return to form than you know what they've learned. Hearing these guys talk about things are nice but ultimately their products speak more for them and their direction.


EDIT:

And Blair ninja'd me. This is what happens when I open 10 tabs and work my way through them one at a time.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 30 octobre 2012 - 08:25 .

[Fredward]

Blair Brown wrote...

There seems to be a lot of negitivity on these forums, whether true or not, thats what it looks like from a dev's perspective.  People are assuming that we arn't trying to make an amazing game or something, I really don't know.

There's positivity too though. It's just really, really world weary positivity. xp

[The Elder King]

Blair Brown wrote...



It seems like what you want from us is "the game" or atleast a detailed list of all the features, story plots, artwork, videos etc etc to prove its a good game... which we can't do at this time.

We can't say more than what has already been released in Marks Blog, as well as the few tidbits that are said in twitter feeds or at con's, etc.

If what has already been stated doesnt dispell your concerns, then sorry, you will have to wait for the announce and eventual release of the game before that will happen.

There seems to be a lot of negitivity on these forums, whether true or not, thats what it looks like from a dev's perspective.  People are assuming that we arn't trying to make an amazing game or something, I really don't know.

What I can say for fact, (I don't know if it will quell anyones concerns or not) is that walking down these halls, seeing the passion, and excitement everyone has for this game, the extra hours, hard work, and effort that is being put into it... Sends chills up my spine sometimes.  

It's going to be an amazing game and we can't wait to share it with our fans, who are just as passionate as us.

As long as you'll show the game and give us more info when you're ready, I'll be fine.
I think that showing the game before it's ready to be shown could have worse effect than not showing the game before it's ready. So I actually agree with your policy on showing it when it's good enough to be shown.

[Fredward]

I considered doing a rant about the rampant and ridiculous sense of entitlement on the BSN and then I realized how completely, and utterly pointless it would be. <_<

[Palipride47]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Wear some hair shirts.
Shave their head and cover it in ashes.
Self-flagellate.
Beg for forgiveness
Promise to never again stray from whatever rigid formula the OP thinks 'true' RPGs adhere to.

And they need to carve:
Baldur's Gate
Icewind Dale
Jade Empire

into their flesh with a +2 dagger.

Honestly, the nostalgia laced pretension is what kept me from interacting with other RPGers for so long. You can almost hear some of them sneer and retort "oh.....that game" in their heads when I say "Dragon Age lead me to [insert classic RPG here]"

Sorry my parents had sex too late for me to play Baldur's Gate instead of Reading Rabbit. <_<

Modifié par Palipride47, 30 octobre 2012 - 09:01 .

[The Elder King]

Palipride47 wrote...


And they need to carve:
Baldur's Gate
Icewind Dale
Jade Empire

into their flesh with a +2 dagger.

Honestly, the nostalgia laced pretension is what kept me from interacting with other RPGers for so long. You can almost hear some of them sneer and retort "oh.....that game" in their heads when I say "Dragon Age lead me to [insert classic RPG here]"

Sorry my parents had sex too late for me to play Baldur's Gate instead of Reading Rabbit. <_<

Just to point out, Bioware didn't made Icewind Dale. Black Isle did.

Modifié par hhh89, 30 octobre 2012 - 09:05 .

[Darth Death]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Nope, since no one held a gun to BioWare's head demanding such time constraints to be so. BioWare knew exactly what they were getting themselves into, but regardless carried on forward anyways.  

Let's blame Bioware devs for having to develop a game in under a year and wanting to keep their jobs, yes.

Additionally, you can keep on pretending you know what you're talking about.

BioWare is to blame because they've accepted the prospect of the ridiculous time development. The idea of asking for more time, I guess was out of the question, which shouldn't have been the case, especially if the game was supposedly a triple A title. Also BioWare & EA coexist under one banner & are not two exclusive entities. That's why it doesn't make sense when people place the blame solely on EA, but not BioWare. They're one in the same. 

[Twisted Path]

Maclimes wrote...

How so? What, exactly, do you want them to do?

They have outright said they will not be giving any details of the game until they are ready to release that information.

What would they have to say/show/do that would convince you? You already said you don't trust them. So what do they have to do? I don't understand what you want.

I doubt this will ever happen but I'd love to see someone step out of the PR bubble and talk candidly about the flaws of Dragon Age 2. From what I've seen from the panels the only flaws they've grudgingly admitted to is the recycled environments, choices not mattering and lack of companion customization.

In my opinion there's a laundry list of other problems that made DA2 vastly inferior to Origins that the devs have yet to address. For instance I'd really like to know if they thought the cartoon style combat with somersaults and blood-explosions was great and if we'll be seeing more of that in DA3; or if they are going to tone that stuff down to make combat fast paced but more realistic-feeling.

I know it's sadly here to stay but I'd also love some more information about if/how the dialogue wheel will be improved. I think being confined to the diplomatic/smug/aggressive tones really limited Hawke as a character. I've heard a lot of people say that Hawke was boring or as unlikeable as a lot of the NPCs, and I think the three essentially preset characters you choose is the main reason why. It compounded the problem that your choice of tone rarely if ever affected the outcome of a conversation beyond whether you got friendship or rivalry points with someone. I would love to know if the same dialogue system will be back in DA3 or if they are experimenting with other ways of handling dialogue and character-building/roleplaying.

Like I said I doubt we'll hear any real discussion of DA2 (or ME3's) flaws and it makes sense. It's probably bad PR to admit that a product has any flaws. I guess what I'd really like to know, and can't know without being a fly on the wall, is if the devs are aware that DA2 had lots and lots of problems and if they ever discus them internally.

Modifié par Twisted Path, 30 octobre 2012 - 09:10 .

[Palipride47]

hhh89 wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...


And they need to carve:
Baldur's Gate
Icewind Dale
Jade Empire

into their flesh with a +2 dagger.

Honestly, the nostalgia laced pretension is what kept me from interacting with other RPGers for so long. You can almost hear some of them sneer and retort "oh.....that game" in their heads when I say "Dragon Age lead me to [insert classic RPG here]"

Sorry my parents had sex too late for me to play Baldur's Gate instead of Reading Rabbit. <_<

Just to point out, Bioware didn't made Icewind Dale. Black Isle did.

I know. Was quoting some guy I was arguing with (IRL) who said "They should make more games like..." then those three I listed when I said I had changed my mind about DA2 not being so terrible as requiring torches and pitchforks. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 30 octobre 2012 - 09:08 .

[fchopin]

Maclimes wrote...

Watch one of the panels they did, in which the lead developers specifically mention the lessons they learned from previous games, especially DA2.

Here's the PAX Panel: 

Thanks for the link.
 
I found that interesting, if they mean what they said we could have a good game in DA3.

[The Elder King]

Palipride47 wrote...


I know. Was quoting some guy I was arguing with (IRL) who said "They should make more games like..." then those three I listed when I said I had changed my mind about DA2 not being so terrible as requiring torches and pitchforks. 

Ah, I thought you were referring to Bioware's games.

[llandwynwyn]

No wonder the tittle is DA Inquisition...some are already playing the Inquisitor role here.

Blair Brown wrote...

What I can say for fact, (I don't know if it will quell anyones concerns or not) is that walking down these halls, seeing the passion, and excitement everyone has for this game, the extra hours, hard work, and effort that is being put into it... Sends chills up my spine sometimes.  

It's going to be an amazing game and we can't wait to share it with our fans, who are just as passionate as us.

That's great to hear.

[Rune-Chan]

Blair Brown wrote...

There seems to be a lot of negitivity on these forums, whether true or not, thats what it looks like from a dev's perspective.  People are assuming that we arn't trying to make an amazing game or something, I really don't know.

Some people are just rude, and almost gleefully so. Those are the kinds who act like you guys are not trying to make a decent game.

As for negativity, well that's in part the companies fault for shifting away from what got people into your games in the first place (not fancy combat for example). Partially due to unrealistic expectations. Partially due to several rather large issues with the last two single player games the company made (ME3's ending and DA2's extreme use of the same levels). As well as the fact that it's the internet and people love to complain.

I think a lot of people also do not understand that Bioware is not some kind of hive mind. The individuals in the company who put a lot of effort and passion into their particular role are not to blame for the poorer decisions made, but people will often label the entire company as one, and I imagine that's got to be quite upsetting at times.

I'd try not to take them personally, most people do not truly think that the "average" Bioware employee is some kind of monster ruining their games, it's just that labelling Bioware or EA on the whole as the bad guys is a lot easier when you do not know who is directly responsible for such issues as forcing Dragon Age 2 to be released so early that 80% of the maps are constantly re-used, as well as other faults.

I also hope you guys realise that when a lot of us criticise (I can use myself as an example here). It's not that we want you to believe we dislike your work, it's that we very much like the good parts, and just want the games to be the best that they can possibly be, so are vocal about what we don't like.

Those with a more realistic view of things know that the vast majority of the developers are as passionate about the series as the fans, and we do appreciate what you guys do.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 30 octobre 2012 - 09:27 .

[Doctoglethorpe]

Blair Brown wrote...

There seems to be a lot of negitivity on these forums, whether true or not, thats what it looks like from a dev's perspective.  People are assuming that we arn't trying to make an amazing game or something, I really don't know.

People aren't assuming you're not trying to make an amazing game, people are losing confidence you're still capable of doing it. 

You shouldn't be discouraged by the negativity from your fan base, in fact just the opposit.  It should drive you to do even better then ever before, to prove it all wrong.

Most people don't enjoy being cynical.  Its not something you chose to feel any more then itchiness after a hair cut.  Its irritating and unwanted.  It feels cold and dirty, while hope feels warm and clean.  Truth is nothing would please us more then to not feel it anymore.  And yes, if DA3 is a great success with no big polarizing issue, a lot of that cynicism will whisk away. 

[Twisted Path]

To put what I was trying to say more simply: I thought Dragon Age: Origins was an awesome game and to this day I'm baffled as to why the sequel went in the complete opposite direction on just about everything and created something that I don't consider awsome. I would really like to know if there is anyone at Bioware who also thinks they maybe shouldn't have made a sequel that was so radically different from the first game.

I guess in the end I'll just have to wait a year or more for the DA3 demo to come out. Then if I see someone get hit by a dagger and explode in a cloud of blood I'll know it's just not the game for me.

[The Night Haunter]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Blair Brown wrote...

There seems to be a lot of negitivity on these forums, whether true or not, thats what it looks like from a dev's perspective.  People are assuming that we arn't trying to make an amazing game or something, I really don't know.

People aren't assuming you're not trying to make an amazing game, people are losing confidence you're still capable of doing it. 

You shouldn't be discouraged by the negativity from your fan base, in fact just the opposit.  It should drive you to do even better then ever before, to prove it all wrong.

Most people don't enjoy being cynical.  Its not something you chose to feel any more then itchiness after a hair cut.  Its irritating and unwanted.  It feels cold and dirty, while hope feels warm and clean.  Truth is nothing would please us more then to not feel it anymore.  And yes, if DA3 is a great success with no big polarizing issue, a lot of that cynicism will whisk away. 

I'm sorry, but either you are a very unique individual on the internet who assumes everyone else is like you or that is a big fat lie. Just look at the number of platant, not-even-bothering-to-hide-it trolls on forums everywhere and you'll see that people do in fact love being cynical. Then add in the more subtle trolls, the people who run around arguing their own pet-peeve until their blue in the fingers (heehee) and just general haters and you reach the conclusion that cynicism is actually the natural human state on the internet.

Ok maybe thats a bit of an exageration, but many, many people do enjoy being devil's advocate for no better reason than it makes other people angry.

Also the actual point of your post is rather silly, if you were an author and wrote a book that got amazing reviews then wrote a second book that you poured your heart and soul into and it ended up with mixed/negative reviews you certainly wouldn't just shake it off and say 'Let's do better!'. You'd be sad cause people are meanies (I would be anyway).

But anyway we'll see what has been learned when DA3 finally hits shelves in 2015....