244 réponses à ce sujet

[Doctoglethorpe]

Palipride47 wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Blair Brown wrote...

There seems to be a lot of negitivity on these forums, whether true or not, thats what it looks like from a dev's perspective.  People are assuming that we arn't trying to make an amazing game or something, I really don't know.

People aren't assuming you're not trying to make an amazing game, people are losing confidence you're still capable of doing it. 

You shouldn't be discouraged by the negativity from your fan base, in fact just the opposit.  It should drive you to do even better then ever before, to prove it all wrong.

 Most people don't enjoy being cynical.  Its not something you chose to feel any more then itchiness after a hair cut.  Its irritating and unwanted.  It feels cold and dirty, while hope feels warm and clean. Truth is nothing would please us more then to not feel it anymore.  And yes, if DA3 is a great success with no big polarizing issue, a lot of that cynicism will whisk away.  

Decent person, meet the internet.
Internet, show this person what you are best at doing. 

You guys are buying a lie if you believe that most people on these forums are just trolls, negative for the sake of being negative.  Maybe you like the thought that your the special one that has justification for being upset and your not the same as everyone else.  But I can guarantee you a vast majorty of upset fans feel the same way.  Most of the people on this site being negative are doing so because they are ginuinely upset, not because "herp derp internet iz fun."

Those fools, they are just very very vocal.  Don't be fooled when people like to conveniently mix up everyone into one large pool with them.  Its a nice little trick the media uses to brush off criticism as "invalid."  We saw it worse then ever before with ME3's ending fiasco.  Its a load of bull**** is my point. 

Try to have a little more trust in your fellow human beings every now and then.  Its not healthy to assume the worst from everyone. 

nb4 I'm naive. 

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 31 octobre 2012 - 05:57 .

[ElitePinecone]

Blair Brown wrote...

What I can say for fact, (I don't know if it will quell anyones concerns or not) is that walking down these halls, seeing the passion, and excitement everyone has for this game, the extra hours, hard work, and effort that is being put into it... Sends chills up my spine sometimes.  

It's going to be an amazing game and we can't wait to share it with our fans, who are just as passionate as us.

I hope this doesn't come across as too blunt, but do you think there's an element of having something to prove now, after the DA2 kerfuffle? Every dev post I read (particularly from Mike, Mark and some of the senior producers) suggests everyone is super-passionate - which I don't doubt - but is part of that passion wanting to make sure the sort of polarisation and negativity we saw a year ago doesn't happen again? Is it a case of wanting to disprove the critics with a more polished final game?

I'm just wondering how it'd be possible to be *more* earnest and passionate about a game series when, frankly, some of the fan response to DA (and its sister Bioware project in ME) has been horrendously bitter and dispiriting - unless part of that passion is in responding to those critics.

[Palipride47]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Blair Brown wrote...

There seems to be a lot of negitivity on these forums, whether true or not, thats what it looks like from a dev's perspective.  People are assuming that we arn't trying to make an amazing game or something, I really don't know.

People aren't assuming you're not trying to make an amazing game, people are losing confidence you're still capable of doing it. 

You shouldn't be discouraged by the negativity from your fan base, in fact just the opposit.  It should drive you to do even better then ever before, to prove it all wrong.

 Most people don't enjoy being cynical.  Its not something you chose to feel any more then itchiness after a hair cut.  Its irritating and unwanted.  It feels cold and dirty, while hope feels warm and clean. Truth is nothing would please us more then to not feel it anymore.  And yes, if DA3 is a great success with no big polarizing issue, a lot of that cynicism will whisk away.  

Decent person, meet the internet.
Internet, show this person what you are best at doing. 

You guys are buying a lie if you believe that most people on these forums are just trolls, negative for the sake of being negative.  Maybe you like the thought that your the special one that has justification for being upset and your not the same as everyone else.  But I can guarantee you a vast majorty of upset fans feel the same way.  Most of the people on this site being negative are doing so because they are ginuinely upset, not because "herp derp internet iz fun."

Those fools, they are just very very vocal. Don't be fooled when people like to conveniently mix up everyone into one large pool with them.  Its a nice little trick the media uses to brush off criticism as "invalid."  We saw it worse then ever before with ME3's ending fiasco.  Its a load of bull**** is my point. 

Try to have a little more trust in your fellow human beings every now and then.  Its not healthy to assume the worst from everyone.  

nb4 I'm naive. 

It only takes those fools to mess up/ drown out "legitimate" complaints. And what is "legitimate" to you (or me) may be pointless nagging for the sake of nagging to others. 

And I don't think anyone here can claim pure innocence in any "troll" like behavior around here (I've swung the pretension hammer often myself, especially when it comes to the ME3 ending complaints).

We all contribute to the internet. If the internet is so bad, it is because everyone here (including myself) took a dump in it, and are pretending that the twenty trillion other piles of crap are the REAL problem, while laying tissues over the ones we left. 

And it isn't healthy to be so distrustful, but I will refer to my previous sentence. Pick up a shovel instead of complaining about other people's crap.

[don-mika]

they already learn from ME2 and DA2, and make amazing ME3 
after ME3 i believe that DA3 going to be amazing 

[Terrorize69]

Dear OP, what makes you think BW needs to "learn" anything from DA2/ME3. They are well within their right to make their games how they please.

If anything its the "fans" who need to "learn" that fact.

[Darth Death]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

You guys are buying a lie if you believe that most people on these forums are just trolls, negative for the sake of being negative.  Maybe you like the thought that your the special one that has justification for being upset and your not the same as everyone else.  But I can guarantee you a vast majorty of upset fans feel the same way.  Most of the people on this site being negative are doing so because they are ginuinely upset, not because "herp derp internet iz fun."

Those fools, they are just very very vocal.  Don't be fooled when people like to conveniently mix up everyone into one large pool with them.  Its a nice little trick the media uses to brush off criticism as "invalid."  We saw it worse then ever before with ME3's ending fiasco.  Its a load of bull**** is my point. 

Try to have a little more trust in your fellow human beings every now and then.  Its not healthy to assume the worst from everyone. 

nb4 I'm naive. 

I can't tell you how right you are, especially the bold parts. Also you're far from naive. It's usually the people who argue against this who tend to be. 

Modifié par Darth Death, 31 octobre 2012 - 12:55 .

[Fredward]

Doctor Moustache wrote...
Try to have a little more trust in your fellow human beings every now and then.  Its not healthy to assume the worst from everyone. 

Bolded for irony.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Dear OP, what makes you think BW needs to "learn" anything from DA2/ME3. They are well within their right to make their games how they please.

If anything its the "fans" who need to "learn" that fact.

Those "rights" soon become irrelevant when their sales turn to pap because they've gone against fan wishes though.

I'm only guessing, but DA:2 & ME:3 must have pulled inat least  the first 25% of their sales from pre-orders alone, ordered by fans because of the quality of the previous games.

DA:3 won't have as many people ready to throw away their cash on pre-orders after being badly bitten by DA:2. Those with sense will wait for the reviews and try before they buy.

So, whilst any game company has their "rights", if they choose to excercise them constantly, and repeatedly use that as an excuse for faliure, then the very company who's "rights" they are excercising won't be around for long.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 31 octobre 2012 - 02:04 .

[Bernhardtbr]

I´ve personally bought ME 3 on release because I really like Bioware.

Will think twice about doing that again. So quality does matter to keep a loyal fanbase and in that sense I do hope they learned something. It´s not that their approach was 100% bad, it just needs some polishing here and there.

[LilyasAvalon]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Dear OP, what makes you think BW needs to "learn" anything from DA2/ME3. They are well within their right to make their games how they please.

If anything its the "fans" who need to "learn" that fact.

Making games is both an art and a business, and believe it or not, businesses DO need to consider what their consumers want, if they want to keep eating that is. If Bioware wanted to be a company that focused on their own pleasure, they'd be an Indie developer or just have Bioware as a 'side project'.

Besides, it's important for anyone to take in the criticisms and learn from them.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 31 octobre 2012 - 02:40 .

[Galactus_the_Devourer]

Blair Brown wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Watch one of the panels they did, in which the lead developers specifically mention the lessons they learned from previous games, especially DA2.

Here's the PAX Panel: 

And here's another small panel from the NYCC:

There. OP's question actually answered.

Nope. Not answered. What I got out of that was alot of noncommital "Might" and "watch us". Whilst I really and truely appreciate the latter bit, its not reassuring given the recent history. I simply do not trust Bioware to deliver, despite their wellmeaning words.

I know that the DA3 team isnt = the ME3 team, and that they cannot be "held accountable" for ME3. But... They delivered DA2. They delivered rehashed level designs and (in my opinion) not very well thought out DLC for DA:O and a DA2 that was not really what alot of DA:O afficionados were looking for. 

I didnt create this thread to slam the DA3 team. Im sure they are doing the best within the constraints of their budgets, time and planning. And I think most loved DA:O. Some even enjoyed the DA2 DLC. I never got around to it. I tired of DA2 20 minutes into the gameplay. I was never really able to enter what writers call "suspension of disbelief" and feel that the toon was "mine". Im not the only one with that experience.

I am however very concerned with "streamlining" and the effect it has on "storytelling". Streamlining has so far ment that the storytelling has been on the backburner for action and nice visual effects. Both for DA2 and for ME3. And its been a hefty staple of the DLC. More action and hefty effects to gloss over a story that was less than up to par when compared to DA:O. I see little evidence and I have heard few (if any) statements that would cause me to reevaluate my presumption that DA3 will  be "more of the same" rather than "a return to old values".

I would like for the Dev team to try to dispell my concerns. They are, after all, concerns shared by many.

It seems like what you want from us is "the game" or atleast a detailed list of all the features, story plots, artwork, videos etc etc to prove its a good game... which we can't do at this time.

We can't say more than what has already been released in Marks Blog, as well as the few tidbits that are said in twitter feeds or at con's, etc.

If what has already been stated doesnt dispell your concerns, then sorry, you will have to wait for the announce and eventual release of the game before that will happen.

There seems to be a lot of negitivity on these forums, whether true or not, thats what it looks like from a dev's perspective.  People are assuming that we arn't trying to make an amazing game or something, I really don't know.

What I can say for fact, (I don't know if it will quell anyones concerns or not) is that walking down these halls, seeing the passion, and excitement everyone has for this game, the extra hours, hard work, and effort that is being put into it... Sends chills up my spine sometimes.  

It's going to be an amazing game and we can't wait to share it with our fans, who are just as passionate as us.

Well, negativity is a passion of sorts. People wouldn't be this negative if they didn't care deeply about the subject. 

I'm obviously not the OP but... I do want certain details about the game, mostly mechanics-side (asking you to spoil the story would obviously be a bad idea for all sorts of reasons ) The problem is that the amount of info we have to go on at the moment amounts to... Just about nothing. That is worrying, because it either means that you haven't done any work yet (which makes any kind of even tentative deadline very worrying) or that there are other reasons for not responding on these issues (I hardly see questions about the types of camera being in to be particularly vital, and even then a simple "We haven't actually decided yet." would be less worrying than the kind of evasiveness we've had thus far)

[Farbautisonn]

legbamel wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Maclimes wrote...
Watch one of the panels they did, in which the lead developers specifically mention the lessons they learned from previous games, especially DA2.

Here's the PAX Panel: 

And here's another small panel from the NYCC:

There. OP's question actually answered.

Nope. Not answered. What I got out of that was alot of noncommital "Might" and "watch us". Whilst I really and truely appreciate the latter bit, its not reassuring given the recent history. I simply do not trust Bioware to deliver, despite their wellmeaning words.

I know that the DA3 team isnt = the ME3 team, and that they cannot be "held accountable" for ME3. But... They delivered DA2. They delivered rehashed level designs and (in my opinion) not very well thought out DLC for DA:O and a DA2 that was not really what alot of DA:O afficionados were looking for.   [snip for length]

Personally, the DLC for both DA:O and DA2 were wonderful additions to the game.  (I can only presume that you're considering DA: A as DLC).  In fact, the DLC for the second game rescued it from its flaws, for me.  If Legacy is the direction in which they're going I'm actually quite excited to see what happens.

You were happy with the DAO: DLC ? The way we got "closure" with our LI? And the rehashed level designs? Wow... youre an easy guy to please. Im quite sure  Bio loves you as a client.

The Expansion for DAO was ok. It wasnt up to Bioware standard, but it was ok. Not knocking that. But the dlc? Christ on a pogostick. That was inept. Two nerds with a toolset and 3 months of free time could have done better than that. If they had had 5 months they could have gotten better VO and effects. It was inept and it took me for granted.

The DLC for DA2? Didt play it. I went against the advice of friends and bought DA2. Then I played it for 20 minutes. And then I decided my mates were rigth and I havent played it at all since. Wont play it unless the payoff for playing it in DA3 savegames is significant. It was the worst crap I have come across in ages.

[Farbautisonn]

Galactus_the_Devourer wrote...


Well, negativity is a passion of sorts. People wouldn't be this negative if they didn't care deeply about the subject.

I'm obviously not the OP but... I do want certain details about the game, mostly mechanics-side (asking you to spoil the story would obviously be a bad idea for all sorts of reasons ) The problem is that the amount of info we have to go on at the moment amounts to... Just about nothing. That is worrying, because it either means that you haven't done any work yet (which makes any kind of even tentative deadline very worrying) or that there are other reasons for not responding on these issues (I hardly see questions about the types of camera being in to be particularly vital, and even then a simple "We haven't actually decided yet." would be less worrying than the kind of evasiveness we've had thus far.

Thank you.

[Farbautisonn]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Dear OP, what makes you think BW needs to "learn" anything from DA2/ME3. They are well within their right to make their games how they please.

If anything its the "fans" who need to "learn" that fact.

Listen Whiteknight...

The fans are the ones buying Buying the games that keep  Bioare in business. We are the people that ensure that their hobby is their job. We can demand stuff of them. Because we pay their salaries. 

Bioware can promise to create an "epic RPG" and then deliver "Tetris". Thats their "right" . However then its my right as a consumor to call them out on what they promised and the discrepencies between what they promised and what they delivered. Its my job as a consumer to warn others that this company does not deliver what they promise or let on.

Fans built Bioware. And the sooner you and your cohorts learn that fact the sooner you will have funding for your next game. Or you can just look to what happened to Westwood and all of the other studios EA gobbled up...

[Farbautisonn]

Rudy Lis wrote...

Sorry for bursting into this thread without invitation, but I find it very difficult to not to.

Blair Brown wrote...

There seems to be a lot of negitivity on these forums, whether true or not, thats what it looks like from a dev's perspective.

And you think negativity is not well deserved? You, personally. Of course, if your regulations and contract allows you to say your opinion; your PR staff will spew all that "protocol nonsense" on us on their own, so no need to add to their chaos otherwise.

Blair Brown wrote...

People are assuming that we arn't trying to make an amazing game or something, I really don't know.

"You're only as good as your last shift." 
Do I need to note that it far from perfect? Before someone grab his pitchfork and yells "speak for yerself", let me clarify (since it seems to be a highly popular trend in your recent endeavors, "to clarify") - I won't put "IMHO" or "my subjective opinion", because everything I say is my IMHO and my subjective opinion, unless it placed into quotes and thus is the quite. For most cases - in some it's just to put emphasis.

Blair Brown wrote...

What I can say for fact, (I don't know if it will quell anyones concerns or not) is that walking down these halls, seeing the passion, and excitement everyone has for this game, the extra hours, hard work, and effort that is being put into it... Sends chills up my spine sometimes.  

Ooh, I heard that before. And read. And seen. Many times, in fact. Okay, maybe not exactly in those words, but by leitmotif. Seeing recent results, I find them harder and harder to believe. Lay off your tar and pitchfork, not just yours words, but everywhere, regardless of industry.

I wonder, if most people fail to deliver something epic and it all ends as crap, maybe they should concentrate on delivering crap and save time, resources and efforts?

Blair Brown wrote...

It's going to be an amazing game and we can't wait to share it with our fans, who are just as passionate as us.

And I think I heard that as well.
Let me ask you something. "Amazing" in which department? By great profits it will brings? By "75 perfect scores"? By popularity it'll leave afterwards, so even in Ghost in the Shell side by side comparison you'll find comment like "green on the left, red on the right, let's add blue and we'll got ME3"?

And Lis... you are correct as per usual 

[The Elder King]

Farbautisonn wrote...



You were happy with the DAO: DLC ? The way we got "closure" with our LI? And the rehashed level designs? Wow... youre an easy guy to please. Im quite sure  Bio loves you as a client.



The DLC for DA2? Didt play it. I went against the advice of friends and bought DA2. Then I played it for 20 minutes. And then I decided my mates were rigth and I havent played it at all since. Wont play it unless the payoff for playing it in DA3 savegames is significant. It was the worst crap I have come across in ages.

I agree that the DAO dlc aren't that good, but why would we have to get "closure" with out LI? I was fine with DAO's closure.
About the dlc of DA2, I didn't play them, but from what I read they're a lot better of the vanilla game (at least Legacy). Though I you hate play DA2 that much, it'd be useless to spend money on dlc (I prefer DAO a lot, but I could play DA2 and enjoy some part of it).
About the import from DA2 to DA3, Bioware did a decent job with the pre-set DAO character to import. I doubt that the personal imports will be a lot better of the pre-set import they'll do.

[TheJediSaint]

Well, this thread doesn't seem at all didactic.

[Morty Smith]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...
Try to have a little more trust in your fellow human beings every now and then.  Its not healthy to assume the worst from everyone. 

Bolded for irony.

I don´t think you understand the context of the argument or the meaning of the word irony.

Please, take this <3 and leave in peace.

[David Gaider]

Galactus_the_Devourer wrote...
I'm obviously not the OP but... I do want certain details about the game, mostly mechanics-side (asking you to spoil the story would obviously be a bad idea for all sorts of reasons ) The problem is that the amount of info we have to go on at the moment amounts to... Just about nothing. That is worrying, because it either means that you haven't done any work yet (which makes any kind of even tentative deadline very worrying) or that there are other reasons for not responding on these issues (I hardly see questions about the types of camera being in to be particularly vital, and even then a simple "We haven't actually decided yet." would be less worrying than the kind of evasiveness we've had thus far)

There is no evasiveness. We're not being vague in the slightest. We've said, straight up, that we're not talking about the game until we can (and are willing to) show it. All we've done at this point is stated that DA3 exists.

It's fine if you want to know more, but being concerned as if we're keeping information you need from you is perhaps getting a bit ahead of yourself-- you don't need it. You can't pre-order the game, never mind buy it, and we're not yet at the point where we've even shown a trailer... the game has not been "launched", so to speak.

So we're not trying to actively assuage anyone's concerns... yet. We don't expect anyone to take our statements at face value until we can back them up, as Blair stated. Until we do that, yes, it's perfectly fine to reserve judgement... or, if you prefer, go ahead and declare your skepticism until proven otherwise. The time for that will be once the game actually launches.

Modifié par David Gaider, 31 octobre 2012 - 06:25 .

[Emzamination]

Ooooo a trailer!!! Will it be CGI? /no sarcasm

[Farbautisonn]

David Gaider wrote...

There is no evasiveness. We're not being vague in the slightest. We've said, straight up, that we're not talking about the game until we can (and are willing to) show it. All we've done at this point is stated that DA3 exists.

It's fine to want to know more, but being concerned as if we're keeping information you need from you is perhaps getting a bit ahead of yourself-- you don't need it. You can't pre-order the game, never mind buy it, and we're not yet at the point where we've even show a trailer... the game has not been "launched", so to speak.

So we're not trying to actively assuage anyone's concerns... yet. We don't expect anyone to take our statements at face value until we can back them up, as Blair stated. Until we do that, yes, it's perfectly fine to reserve judgement... or, if you prefer, go ahead and declare your skepticism until proven otherwise. The time for that will be once the game actually launches.

Sir, Thats grand. You have told us you wont show or tell till you have something to show and tell. We undestand. However... that does little in the way of ensuring you have learned from DA2 and ME3 and everything in between. Infact it only makes us more insecure, more sceptical.

Promise something... and then hold your word. Keep the Faith. That would work. Keeping your trap shut untill you know you can deliver is nice, even commendable... But you didnt have this modus oprandi before. So what changed? What did you Learn? 

[Emzamination]

^ I'm not insecure or skeptical. I'm Anxious and excited.

Modifié par Emzamination, 31 octobre 2012 - 06:38 .

[TheJediSaint]

EntropicAngel wrote...


They learned that anything they say can, and sadly will be used against them.

So, we should read them their Miranda Rights?  Do they even have that in Canada?

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 31 octobre 2012 - 06:44 .

[David Gaider]

Farbautisonn wrote...
Sir, Thats grand. You have told us you wont show or tell till you have something to show and tell. We undestand. However... that does little in the way of ensuring you have learned from DA2 and ME3 and everything in between. Infact it only makes us more insecure, more sceptical.

If that's the case, then prepare to be insecure and skeptical for some time to come. If we were simply to say "we've learned this", chances are that a skeptical person still wouldn't believe us until and unless we had something to back up such statements... indeed, we have talked about some of these things already at several of the con presentations, and if you consider those things irrelevant it's not like more along the same line will actually help you any.