244 réponses à ce sujet

[hitenchi]

macrocarl wrote...

The criticisms on the game can't be avoided. I've been around way longer than even my sig has as a date and every single release you get people who are unhappy. And then when the game is out a couple years and a new one hits the shelves people remember the last game fondly for XYZ reason. On top of that, 'what went wrong' in the past games is sooooo subjective.

I have to agree with you for the most part, especially with mass effect 3, one of my fav game like all the mass effect games but i do think that there is some stuff they could learn from DA2. After playing DA2 a 2nd time i did kind of feel the biggest problem with it was that it was called DA2 lol, i knw that might  sound silly, but i feel that DA2 is a game that is lot better when played as another gamer in the dragon age universe rather than a sequal to DA:O, since lots of the faults people say the game have are just differences from the first game rather than true faults of the game itself. It is its own game which i think they worked quite hard on making it play differently to DA:O and on my 2nd-4th playthrough i really apprieciated, not so much on my first.

However i do think that DA2 had some very obvious mistakes that we could asscociate with the short production cycle. Which were the reused environments and the enemies jumping out of nowhere which was a major blow to the tactical gameplay, and made the game harder in a clunky way. So i really just felt that DA2 needed a little bit more time to be polished and was otherwise a great game. I think its interesting not always being able to solve a situation in an inherently better or avoiding disaster, but i would prefer some variety in that kind of situation. Also personally i felt that the artistic style of DA2 did not relate to the tone very well but that is my opinion.

[Wozearly]

David Gaider wrote...

If that's the case, then prepare to be insecure and skeptical for some time to come. If we were simply to say "we've learned this", chances are that a skeptical person still wouldn't believe us until and unless we had something to back up such statements... indeed, we have talked about some of these things already at several of the con presentations, and if you consider those things irrelevant it's not like more along the same line will actually help you any.

Speaking as a reasonably sceptical person (in general, not about Bioware specifically), you're absolutely right when it comes to generalisations.

If you or any of the Bioware writers said "We learned loads from DA2 and ME3 about what worked well and badly from the storywriting perspective, and the criticisms will be completely addressed in DA3"...well, if you can't showcase what you mean by that, it would be a pointless statement.

I also think that would be an unrealistic expectation - every Bioware game has had a wave of feedback where different writing decisions have generated equal amounts of vociferous praise and damning criticisms. Its not clear that that could ever be resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

Far better that we get examples so that we can understand the reality of what the Bioware team are thinking and doing and what they want to achieve, which will hopefully lead to more rational discussions and reactions (and help avoid the 'shock factor' that a some people felt happened when DA2 had a very different feel to DA:O).

I personally hope that you 'learn' to keep doing all of the things that I liked and 'learn' not to do all of the things that I disliked, but I accept that I may be a wee bit biased. :innocent:

[Iakus]

David Gaider wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...
Sir, Thats grand. You have told us you wont show or tell till you have something to show and tell. We undestand. However... that does little in the way of ensuring you have learned from DA2 and ME3 and everything in between. Infact it only makes us more insecure, more sceptical.

If that's the case, then prepare to be insecure and skeptical for some time to come. If we were simply to say "we've learned this", chances are that a skeptical person still wouldn't believe us until and unless we had something to back up such statements... indeed, we have talked about some of these things already at several of the con presentations, and if you consider those things irrelevant it's not like more along the same line will actually help you any.

For myself, I'd rather wait and see when it's ready than be promised the sun, the moon, and the stars only to be disappointed later.

[Iakus]

TheJediSaint wrote...

So, we should read them their Miranda Rights?  Do they even have that in Canada?

"You have the right to wear a tight fitting outfit.  You have the right to have your rear filmed in extreme closeup.  You have the right to an Australian accent..."   

[Fredward]

Kroitz wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...
Try to have a little more trust in your fellow human beings every now and then.  Its not healthy to assume the worst from everyone. 

Bolded for irony.

I don´t think you understand the context of the argument or the meaning of the word irony.

Please, take this <3 and leave in peace.

You are right, I should've said hypocrisy. And I reject your heart, I can only be bought with cookies.

[legbamel]

Farbautisonn wrote...

legbamel wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Maclimes wrote...
Watch one of the panels they did, in which the lead developers specifically mention the lessons they learned from previous games, especially DA2.

Here's the PAX Panel: 

And here's another small panel from the NYCC:

There. OP's question actually answered.

Nope. Not answered. What I got out of that was alot of noncommital "Might" and "watch us". Whilst I really and truely appreciate the latter bit, its not reassuring given the recent history. I simply do not trust Bioware to deliver, despite their wellmeaning words.

I know that the DA3 team isnt = the ME3 team, and that they cannot be "held accountable" for ME3. But... They delivered DA2. They delivered rehashed level designs and (in my opinion) not very well thought out DLC for DA:O and a DA2 that was not really what alot of DA:O afficionados were looking for.   [snip for length]

Personally, the DLC for both DA:O and DA2 were wonderful additions to the game.  (I can only presume that you're considering DA: A as DLC).  In fact, the DLC for the second game rescued it from its flaws, for me.  If Legacy is the direction in which they're going I'm actually quite excited to see what happens.

You were happy with the DAO: DLC ? The way we got "closure" with our LI? And the rehashed level designs? Wow... youre an easy guy to please. Im quite sure  Bio loves you as a client.

The Expansion for DAO was ok. It wasnt up to Bioware standard, but it was ok. Not knocking that. But the dlc? Christ on a pogostick. That was inept. Two nerds with a toolset and 3 months of free time could have done better than that. If they had had 5 months they could have gotten better VO and effects. It was inept and it took me for granted.

The DLC for DA2? Didt play it. I went against the advice of friends and bought DA2. Then I played it for 20 minutes. And then I decided my mates were rigth and I havent played it at all since. Wont play it unless the payoff for playing it in DA3 savegames is significant. It was the worst crap I have come across in ages.

I utterly forgot about Witch Hunt because it was, what, fifteen minutes long?  So, yeah, that one sucked.  But since the post to which I responded didn't mention DA:A, which is why I presumed that's what they meant by DA:O DLC.  Personally, I enjoyed Awakenings a great deal.

I got enough closure with my LI in the first game.  I'm not sure what you think was missing.  I don't see any of the Wardens as "retire to a little village and live happily ever after" types.  There's work yet to do, Darkspawn yet to kill, and (for some) a country to run.

[Guns]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Also the actual point of your post is rather silly, if you were an author and wrote a book that got amazing reviews then wrote a second book that you poured your heart and soul into and it ended up with mixed/negative reviews you certainly wouldn't just shake it off and say 'Let's do better!'. You'd be sad cause people are meanies (I would be anyway).

Well if you poured your heart and soul into a book and came out with the quality of Dragon Age 2 I would tell you to quit writing. 

Modifié par Guns, 31 octobre 2012 - 11:58 .

[Herr Uhl]

Guns wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Also the actual point of your post is rather silly, if you were an author and wrote a book that got amazing reviews then wrote a second book that you poured your heart and soul into and it ended up with mixed/negative reviews you certainly wouldn't just shake it off and say 'Let's do better!'. You'd be sad cause people are meanies (I would be anyway).

Well if you poured your heart and soul into a book and came out with the quality of Dragon Age 2 I would tell you to quit writing. 

Nah, getting a better editor would be my first suggestion. There was potential but it fell kind of flat.

[Farbautisonn]

David Gaider wrote...

If that's the case, then prepare to be insecure and skeptical for some time to come. If we were simply to say "we've learned this", chances are that a skeptical person still wouldn't believe us until and unless we had something to back up such statements... indeed, we have talked about some of these things already at several of the con presentations, and if you consider those things irrelevant it's not like more along the same line will actually help you any.

Oh Trust me. I am very well prepared to be insecure and sceptical. And you're absolutely correct in assuming that a sceptical person would not believe you, unless you could back it up.

You have talked about several of these issues at the cons yes... but in the most general and noncommital terms. That too I undestand. Tipping of the hand and that sort of thing. However some of the things said have an eerie reminiscence of what was said during cons running up to ME3.

Again I thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread. Im quite sure you find it in some ways offensive and aggressive but trust me when I say that I sincerely hope you deliver at product that is up to par with DAO and hopefully exceeding it.

[Nerevar-as]

Guns wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Also the actual point of your post is rather silly, if you were an author and wrote a book that got amazing reviews then wrote a second book that you poured your heart and soul into and it ended up with mixed/negative reviews you certainly wouldn't just shake it off and say 'Let's do better!'. You'd be sad cause people are meanies (I would be anyway).

Well if you poured your heart and soul into a book and came out with the quality of Dragon Age 2 I would tell you to quit writing. 

I would be wondering what the hell had happened between finishing one book and writing the other.

[Farbautisonn]

legbamel wrote...

I utterly forgot about Witch Hunt because it was, what, fifteen minutes long?  So, yeah, that one sucked.  But since the post to which I responded didn't mention DA:A, which is why I presumed that's what they meant by DA:O DLC.  Personally, I enjoyed Awakenings a great deal.

I found Awakenings to be rushed and I found the storyline to be subpar. It was nice in some aspects and I enjoyed some of the caracters, It was not an expansion I felt elated over... in any sense of the word.

I got enough closure with my LI in the first game.  I'm not sure what you think was missing.  I don't see any of the Wardens as "retire to a little village and live happily ever after" types.  There's work yet to do, Darkspawn yet to kill, and (for some) a country to run.

I was quite happy with the original ending too. I didnt need for DLC to have me go Chase morrigan. But since Morrigan was such a central character to the game and to the continued lore of the game, having us chase after her in rehashed level designs only to get 1 minute of noncommital bs dialogue was a letdown. They should either have left it alone or expanded significantly on it.

And no. The Wardens likely do not retire to a litte village and live happily ever after. There will allways be work to do. People to train, a legacy to maintain, politics to ensure that the Wardens can exist in the future, maintaining ties with other Wardens etc... so why not expand on that instead of handing us a halfarsed Morrigan DLC? 

[Iecerint]

Legacy and Mark of the Assassin were fantastic -- probably better than any DAO DLC I can think of. It just made the rest of DA2 tragic, though, since it could have been that great, too.

I was enthusiastic for DA2. I'm guardedly optimistic for DA3. That guardedness might be mistaken for negativity, but it's really want my team to do well.

[Iecerint]

@ Farbaut -- my thought was that they wanted to put the Warden on a bus so that they've have relative freedom in how they wrote DA2.

[Rudy Lis]

David Gaider wrote...

There is no evasiveness.

*With that omnipresent announcer voice* "Only equivocation and prevarication." 

Extended cut of line above - that's a joke.

David Gaider wrote...

We're not being vague in the slightest.

Yeah, only unclear, dim, uncertain, faint, incomplete, hazy and sketchy.

Ditto.

To provide more of the answers and closure that some people may ask for - that's a joke too.

David Gaider wrote...

We've said, straight up, that we're not talking about the game until we can (and are willing to) show it.

"Show". Hmm, I wonder, are you willing to "show" us demo before release, if ever? 
Or you actually learned some lessons from ME3 and now you think that certain events could (and possible would) scare potential customers away, who, probably, won't buy "leaked script" or "art" again?
No need to point me out that it was "other side of the garage".

Farbautisonn wrote...

What did you Learn?

Ooh, I can tell what they learn: "Square root of 906.01 is 30.1... it all seemed harmless..."

David Gaider wrote...

If we were simply to say "we've learned this", chances are that a skeptical person still wouldn't believe us until and unless we had something to back up such statements...

As I consider myself quite a skeptical, I think I must "clarify" - unless person proved otherwise, I see no reason not to believe him. As I do not remember you or your colleage from previous page being firing chaffs&flares, here are three questions, answers on which I really want to know. If you don't mind, of course. If you mind, just ignore them. Or dance jig, I don't know, I suck more than Shepard when it comes to dances. Unless that's "hit the deck" dance. 
1. Will you continue to avoid malpractice some of your colleagues are abusing, regarding multiplatform games' GUI and controls which are barely adequate for PC? I mean "spacebar-do-everything", GARGANTUAN icons, clogging monitor so much you barely can see anything else, no hotkeys (hey, I use keyboard, I have more than 4 buttons+2 bumpers+2 triggers, pfeh, my mouse have more buttons than that (and it's not even MMO version)), no save on demand or saves on checkpoints nonsense, list goes on...
2. Will ALL of cutscene be skippable? Puhleeze? Each and every one of them?
3. Will new protagonist and Co have normal animations, not that "powered by amanita potions of hypersonic speed" Hawke-alike combat animations or "I **** normally! Right in my pants!" Shepard-alike moves? And please no BF3 animations, really, folks, as cost estimator I understand requirements to cut expenses, but not to that extent, seriously.

And to prevent possible accusations that I don't read news, which are true, I don't; I mean what good you can find in news these days? Where was I? Ah, yeas, Reapers accusations. Through ME3 I haven't even read any news, announces, previews and other blah-blah, I just (pre-)ordered your games. But two recent examples - DA2/ME3 had those "damn little things" that moved from pet peeves to major psychotic ****ing hatreds in such amounts so I brake my own rule of thumb "not to ask" and ask you directly. Because gameplay wise, those things are much more irritating to me than many others (can't say much about DA2 story, that Hawke and Co combat moves are so annoying I can't stand them, even in homeopathetic doses).

[EpicBoot2daFace]

David Gaider wrote...

Galactus_the_Devourer wrote...
I'm obviously not the OP but... I do want certain details about the game, mostly mechanics-side (asking you to spoil the story would obviously be a bad idea for all sorts of reasons ) The problem is that the amount of info we have to go on at the moment amounts to... Just about nothing. That is worrying, because it either means that you haven't done any work yet (which makes any kind of even tentative deadline very worrying) or that there are other reasons for not responding on these issues (I hardly see questions about the types of camera being in to be particularly vital, and even then a simple "We haven't actually decided yet." would be less worrying than the kind of evasiveness we've had thus far)

There is no evasiveness. We're not being vague in the slightest. We've said, straight up, that we're not talking about the game until we can (and are willing to) show it. All we've done at this point is stated that DA3 exists.

It's fine if you want to know more, but being concerned as if we're keeping information you need from you is perhaps getting a bit ahead of yourself-- you don't need it. You can't pre-order the game, never mind buy it, and we're not yet at the point where we've even shown a trailer... the game has not been "launched", so to speak.

So we're not trying to actively assuage anyone's concerns... yet. We don't expect anyone to take our statements at face value until we can back them up, as Blair stated. Until we do that, yes, it's perfectly fine to reserve judgement... or, if you prefer, go ahead and declare your skepticism until proven otherwise. The time for that will be once the game actually launches.

When would be the best time to ask about the possibility of a demo?

[Palipride47]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
When would be the best time to ask about the possibility of a demo?

Probably late 2013  (which is soooooo longggggg, especially considering how riled up everyone -and me- is in late 2012)

[Doctoglethorpe]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...
Try to have a little more trust in your fellow human beings every now and then.  Its not healthy to assume the worst from everyone. 

Bolded for irony.

I don´t think you understand the context of the argument or the meaning of the word irony.

Please, take this <3 and leave in peace.

You are right, I should've said hypocrisy. And I reject your heart, I can only be bought with cookies.

I still don't get it.   What part is hypocritical?

[David Gaider]

Rudy Lis wrote...

<rudeness cut>

Firstly, the DA3 team is not the ME3 team. Secondly, no matter how upset ME3 might have made you, that does not excuse speaking to myself or any member of the development team in such a disrespectful manner. I suggest you consider your words more carefully before posting again.

[Maria Caliban]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

When would be the best time to ask about the possibility of a demo?

They had a character creator for DA:O and a demo for DA 2 and ME 3. I greatly suspect there will be one.

[TheJediSaint]

Maria Caliban wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

When would be the best time to ask about the possibility of a demo?

They had a character creator for DA:O and a demo for DA 2 and ME 3. I greatly suspect there will be one.

Yes, in the month or so running up to the release.   I would guess we still have till late fall 2013 before we can even expect a demo, though.  I doubt we'll even see a screen shot before the spring.

[David Gaider]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
When would be the best time to ask about the possibility of a demo?

I would at least wait until we've actually revealed something about the game. I suspect the answer even then would be "we'll see", as demos aren't something we generally deal with until late in the process. I have no insight on one, myself.

[Malanek]

I would advise against doing a demo at all, unless it is done quite differently from DA2. I just don't think the demo fairly represents the game. After playing the demo and listening to all the complaints in the forum (In NZ, games come out on thursdays) I wouldn't have bought it if I hadn't of pre-ordered. I thought the demo was really, really bad, but the actual game was quite good.