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(For Devs/Writers) What did you learn from ME3 and DA2?


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#126
VanDraegon

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Either OP is trolling or is really naive about the gaming industry if he honestly expects the Devs to address his post in the desire he wishes. It isnt going to happen.

However seeing this...

Blair Brown wrote...


What I can say for fact, (I don't know if it will quell anyones concerns or not) is that walking down these halls, seeing the passion, and excitement everyone has for this game, the extra hours, hard work, and effort that is being put into it... Sends chills up my spine sometimes.

It's going to be an amazing game and we can't wait to share it with our fans, who are just as passionate as us.


Is a bit reassuring. It does give me confidence that they are all to aware of what some of the glaring critiques of DA2 were mainly about. I am sure given the time frame they had they did the best they could.

I dont recall any such similar comments regarding DA2 during the lead up to its release. Comment from a now infamous EA rep, yes. Maybe i dont recall properly at this point, i am well into my 40s after all.

I think DA3 will be a much better game than DA2. It wont be what us DA:O rabid fans want but i am optomistic.

#127
Palipride47

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@ VanDraegon, some people want to pretend they are lying, and that it will suck so they can claim they were right and Bioware/ EA was lying and intentionally making poo while counting our money.

I don't know why. Maybe companies like Zynga?

Modifié par Palipride47, 01 novembre 2012 - 04:58 .


#128
WhiteThunder

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I don't think anyone wants DA3 to suck, a great RPG being released is always a good thing. It's more that some of us have become a bit jaded by the direction that BioWare's been taking over the past few years. I was really excited for DA2, because I believed that, even if they had taken a hacksaw to most of the mechanics I enjoyed in DAO, BioWare could do no wrong. DA2 and ME3 were a pretty rude awakening for me and obviously many others. I just can't take it on faith anymore that the game will be great because it has BioWare on the label, and that genuinely makes me sad.

#129
ElitePinecone

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Malanek999 wrote...

I would advise against doing a demo at all, unless it is done quite differently from DA2. I just don't think the demo fairly represents the game. After playing the demo and listening to all the complaints in the forum (In NZ, games come out on thursdays) I wouldn't have bought it if I hadn't of pre-ordered. I thought the demo was really, really bad, but the actual game was quite good.


I think, though, that unless there's a concerted effort to explain things better, a demo can actually make things worse in terms of player expectations. 

In ME3's case the absence of a full hearing at the start of the game, the abundance of autodialogue, the lack of weapon holstering, the absence of mini-games for door unlocking, etc were held up necessary compromises "just for the demo", with the expectation that they'd be vastly different and changed in the "real game". When they weren't, I think the disappointment was probably greater - simply because people had a false idea that the demo represented an unfinished or compromised version of the actual game.

If anything, it points to a real need (IMO) for development to be much more transparent, given the propensity of the hard-core fans to expect (and feel entitled to) things that were in previous games to appear in subsequent ones. Explanations on what things are being changed, and why, are pretty necessary.

(I do think a lot of the entitlement is ridiculous and totally unfounded, but it does exist and developers have to find a way to manage it.)

#130
SafetyShattered

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Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

I like cookies.


......well said Trista. Well said.

#131
Fredward

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Doctor Moustache wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...
Try to have a little more trust in your fellow human beings every now and then.  Its not healthy to assume the worst from everyone. 


Bolded for irony. :whistle:


I don´t think you understand the context of the argument or the meaning of the word irony.

Please, take this <3 and leave in peace.


You are right, I should've said hypocrisy. And I reject your heart, I can only be bought with cookies.


I still don't get it.   What part is hypocritical? :mellow:


That the people who are lecturing on "trusting your fellow human beings" and "not always assuming the worst of everyone" are the ones who make patronizing and self entitled threads like this one? Or is this one of those we "criticize because we love" instances? Btw I use the term "criticize" loosly since a lot of this is aformentioned patronizing and self entitled BS. -eyes Rudy Lis-

#132
Allan Schumacher

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This is a fantastic tangent that isn't relevant to the topic at hand!

#133
Doctoglethorpe

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Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...
Try to have a little more trust in your fellow human beings every now and then.  Its not healthy to assume the worst from everyone. 


Bolded for irony. :whistle:


I don´t think you understand the context of the argument or the meaning of the word irony.

Please, take this <3 and leave in peace.


You are right, I should've said hypocrisy. And I reject your heart, I can only be bought with cookies.


I still don't get it.   What part is hypocritical? :mellow:


That the people who are lecturing on "trusting your fellow human beings" and "not always assuming the worst of everyone" are the ones who make patronizing and self entitled threads like this one? Or is this one of those we "criticize because we love" instances? Btw I use the term "criticize" loosly since a lot of this is aformentioned patronizing and self entitled BS. -eyes Rudy Lis-


... I didn't make this thread. 

And a lot of people do criticize because they care.  You think all those hardcore star wars fans that slam the new trilogy don't exist, the kinds of people that go to scifi cons in hot summer weather dressed as chewbaca and read all of the houndreds of EU books? 

#134
EpicBoot2daFace

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David Gaider wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
When would be the best time to ask about the possibility of a demo?


I would at least wait until we've actually revealed something about the game. I suspect the answer even then would be "we'll see", as demos aren't something we generally deal with until late in the process. I have no insight on one, myself.

Fair enough. Thanks for the reply.

#135
Fredward

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Doctor Moustache wrote...
... I didn't make this thread. 

And a lot of people do criticize because they care.  You think all those hardcore star wars fans that slam the new trilogy don't exist, the kinds of people that go to scifi cons in hot summer weather dressed as chewbaca and read all of the houndreds of EU books? 


I didn't claim you did. I just used your paragraph as a springboard to point something out.

Anyway...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This is a fantastic tangent that isn't relevant to the topic at hand!


So I'm done discussing this. Someone feel free to make a "Self entitlement in fandom/"Criticism" is love" thread though. I'd just love to participate.

#136
Fast Jimmy

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To the OP's point (which, granted, could have been conveyed with a bit more diplomatic tone, instead of snarky - should have used more blue responses instead of purple), we have heard that the DA team has been listening and taking fan complaints into consideration, but often we aren't given exact complaints that are being considered.

In the various Cons over the past six months, the complaints Inhave heard mentioned as 'issues' being addressed are re-used environments, companion armor and small areas (like Kirkwall).

But for me, honestly, these are small details. DA2 could have been a great game located in one city, companion armor annoyed me but wasn't anywhere near a reason I was angry about how the game turned out and I didn't even notice the recycled environments until 10+ hours in.

The things that drove me crazy about the game was the lack of engaging narrative, the focus on combat all the time, the change to an action-oriented combat that quickly became mind-numbing, companions which seemed very one-dimensional in their scope, choices that rarely impacted how anything played out aside from two seconds after I made said choice and an ending that gave any sort of closure or explanation to why Hawke was important or what happened to everyone involved.

Some of the same could be said of ME3, where choices were reduced to a silly number that was inflated more by playing an hour of Multiplayer than by making the smartest choices for galactic survival and an ending that severed all sense of narrative cohesion.


Most of these complaints, such as choice, narrative purpose, companion personality concepts and how the team approaches endings... none of these are gameplay elements. These aren't features you can show us in a demo. You can't develop them with a software team, but rather lay them out as philosophy guidelines when creating the bulk of narrative/written content.

In light of that kind of logic, can the writing/dev team shed any light on the creation mindset/philosophy for DA3? There's no need to reveal spoilers, nor any gameplay functions/elements, but any feedback on some of the actual writing aspects that people found fault with in the two most recent releases would be very interesting and satisfying to see.

Thanks!

#137
Pedrak

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I just hope they'll put more effort into the final act and the endings. No rush, no vague cliffhangers, no lapses of logic, no total lack of closure. Happy, bittersweet, bleak - I don't care, just make it interesting, rich and substantial.

I've always had the impression game developers put a lot more care into the first parts of the game than into the last act/ending.

Modifié par Pedrak, 01 novembre 2012 - 12:05 .


#138
Little Princess Peach

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Blair Brown wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Watch one of the panels they did, in which the lead developers specifically mention the lessons they learned from previous games, especially DA2.

Here's the PAX Panel: 

And here's another small panel from the NYCC:

There. OP's question actually answered.

Nope. Not answered. What I got out of that was alot of noncommital "Might" and "watch us". Whilst I really and truely appreciate the latter bit, its not reassuring given the recent history. I simply do not trust Bioware to deliver, despite their wellmeaning words.

I know that the DA3 team isnt = the ME3 team, and that they cannot be "held accountable" for ME3. But... They delivered DA2. They delivered rehashed level designs and (in my opinion) not very well thought out DLC for DA:O and a DA2 that was not really what alot of DA:O afficionados were looking for. 

I didnt create this thread to slam the DA3 team. Im sure they are doing the best within the constraints of their budgets, time and planning. And I think most loved DA:O. Some even enjoyed the DA2 DLC. I never got around to it. I tired of DA2 20 minutes into the gameplay. I was never really able to enter what writers call "suspension of disbelief" and feel that the toon was "mine". Im not the only one with that experience.

I am however very concerned with "streamlining" and the effect it has on "storytelling". Streamlining has so far ment that the storytelling has been on the backburner for action and nice visual effects. Both for DA2 and for ME3. And its been a hefty staple of the DLC. More action and hefty effects to gloss over a story that was less than up to par when compared to DA:O. I see little evidence and I have heard few (if any) statements that would cause me to reevaluate my presumption that DA3 will  be "more of the same" rather than "a return to old values".

I would like for the Dev team to try to dispell my concerns. They are, after all, concerns shared by many.


It seems like what you want from us is "the game" or atleast a detailed list of all the features, story plots, artwork, videos etc etc to prove its a good game... which we can't do at this time.

We can't say more than what has already been released in Marks Blog, as well as the few tidbits that are said in twitter feeds or at con's, etc.

If what has already been stated doesnt dispell your concerns, then sorry, you will have to wait for the announce and eventual release of the game before that will happen.

There seems to be a lot of negitivity on these forums, whether true or not, thats what it looks like from a dev's perspective.  People are assuming that we arn't trying to make an amazing game or something, I really don't know.

What I can say for fact, (I don't know if it will quell anyones concerns or not) is that walking down these halls, seeing the passion, and excitement everyone has for this game, the extra hours, hard work, and effort that is being put into it... Sends chills up my spine sometimes.  

It's going to be an amazing game and we can't wait to share it with our fans, who are just as passionate as us.

most of us were let down bythe games because of all the awseomeness that came with the marketting, then we found out that it was bascically little white lies to get us to buy the games, I know the devs work there bums off and whatnot but really can't you guys be honnest with us when marketting a game instead of giving us krogan balls?

#139
David Gaider

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Fast Jimmy wrote...
To the OP's point (which, granted, could have been conveyed with a bit more diplomatic tone, instead of snarky - should have used more blue responses instead of purple), we have heard that the DA team has been listening and taking fan complaints into consideration, but often we aren't given exact complaints that are being considered.


You want a laundry list? "We are dealing with X complaint"? The problem with that, to be perfectly honest, is how people would interpret 'dealing with'. Unless there is something we can say with 100% clarity, as in we're simply not doing it or we're doing it as we did before, it's going to be something that requires showing exactly what we mean... otherwise your average forum-goer is likely to imagine it as something other than what it is and set themselves up for disappointment.

See the backgrounds thing as an example. I mentioned them at the Edmonton Expo, and now I'm either left with the choice of breaking down exactly what that entails and answering the hundred questions that have arisen (long before I'm actually ready to do so) or letting peoples' imaginations run away with them as they conjure images of implementations which could only work if those backgrounds were the entire game. Far better had they simply not come up yet at all.

The things that drove me crazy about the game was the lack of engaging narrative, the focus on combat all the time, the change to an action-oriented combat that quickly became mind-numbing, companions which seemed very one-dimensional in their scope, choices that rarely impacted how anything played out aside from two seconds after I made said choice and an ending that gave any sort of closure or explanation to why Hawke was important or what happened to everyone involved.


We've mentioned many times that combat is one of the primary focuses for the team-- indeed, it's Mike's #1 goal. He's even talked about it here, a bit. Evidently that's not something everyone has paid attention to... possibly because just talking about it doesn't really reach people. Combat is something that has to be shown.

We've also said that having more choice is something we're going to do. Again, apparently something you did not hear. I suppose because the response would naturally be-- how much choice? When? What will it affect? All of these are good questions... for that period after we've shown the game and started talking about it.

In light of that kind of logic, can the writing/dev team shed any light on the creation mindset/philosophy for DA3? There's no need to reveal spoilers, nor any gameplay functions/elements, but any feedback on some of the actual writing aspects that people found fault with in the two most recent releases would be very interesting and satisfying to see.


And, as I've already said in this thread, that's not going to happen. What you're asking for is all the information we're going to give after we've launched the game. The only way to address all those questions is to go into them in detail, as every question we answer just engenders a dozen more... and just talking about it is evidently not enough.

#140
Maclimes

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I'm not sure I understand the need for these questions to be addressed NOW. I get why you would want to know, "Did you guys fix X that I hated in DA2?". But I don't understand why you need the answer this very second.

You can't buy or even pre-order the game yet. What good is that information to you? What if they come out in six months to a year, and say, "Yes, we fixed X. Here's the in-game video footage to prove it." Would you just, "Nope! I don't care anymore! You wouldn't answer my question a long time ago!" ?

I understand you're excited. Me too. But try to keep it all in perspective.

#141
David Gaider

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Maclimes wrote...

I'm not sure I understand the need for these questions to be addressed NOW. I get why you would want to know, "Did you guys fix X that I hated in DA2?". But I don't understand why you need the answer this very second.

You can't buy or even pre-order the game yet. What good is that information to you? What if they come out in six months to a year, and say, "Yes, we fixed X. Here's the in-game video footage to prove it." Would you just, "Nope! I don't care anymore! You wouldn't answer my question a long time ago!" ?

I understand you're excited. Me too. But try to keep it all in perspective.


This isn't particularly new. At this stage it's "why aren't you telling us anything?". Once the marketing campaign is launched, it'll be "why aren't you telling us everything?". Once the campaign is well underway and we're repeating information for those who don't spend time on our forums, it'll be "why aren't you telling us anything new... we've already seen this!"

Look on the bright side: the time between DAO being announced and the launch of the marketing campaign was about three years. You probably won't have to wait that long this time. :)

#142
Maclimes

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David Gaider wrote...

You probably won't have to wait that long this time. :)


ಠ_ಠ

Modifié par Maclimes, 01 novembre 2012 - 04:22 .


#143
TheJediSaint

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David Gaider wrote...
You probably won't have to wait that long this time. :)


Now you're just teasing us.

#144
EpicBoot2daFace

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David Gaider wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

I'm not sure I understand the need for these questions to be addressed NOW. I get why you would want to know, "Did you guys fix X that I hated in DA2?". But I don't understand why you need the answer this very second.

You can't buy or even pre-order the game yet. What good is that information to you? What if they come out in six months to a year, and say, "Yes, we fixed X. Here's the in-game video footage to prove it." Would you just, "Nope! I don't care anymore! You wouldn't answer my question a long time ago!" ?

I understand you're excited. Me too. But try to keep it all in perspective.


This isn't particularly new. At this stage it's "why aren't you telling us anything?". Once the marketing campaign is launched, it'll be "why aren't you telling us everything?". Once the campaign is well underway and we're repeating information for those who don't spend time on our forums, it'll be "why aren't you telling us anything new... we've already seen this!"

Look on the bright side: the time between DAO being announced and the launch of the marketing campaign was about three years. You probably won't have to wait that long this time. :)

The return of "Awesome!" Posted Image

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 01 novembre 2012 - 05:05 .


#145
Maria Caliban

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David Gaider wrote...

This isn't particularly new. At this stage it's "why aren't you telling us anything?". Once the marketing campaign is launched, it'll be "why aren't you telling us everything?". Once the campaign is well underway and we're repeating information for those who don't spend time on our forums, it'll be "why aren't you telling us anything new... we've already seen this!"


You forgot: "Stop spoiling the game! You're telling us too much."

#146
Sylvius the Mad

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David Gaider wrote...

Look on the bright side: the time between DAO being announced and the launch of the marketing campaign was about three years. You probably won't have to wait that long this time. :)

It was a great three years.

#147
Sylvius the Mad

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Maria Caliban wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

This isn't particularly new. At this stage it's "why aren't you telling us anything?". Once the marketing campaign is launched, it'll be "why aren't you telling us everything?". Once the campaign is well underway and we're repeating information for those who don't spend time on our forums, it'll be "why aren't you telling us anything new... we've already seen this!"


You forgot: "Stop spoiling the game! You're telling us too much."

That's usually my line.

I still wish there was some way to learn about the game's mechanics in tremendous detail without learning the names of any of the game's characters.

#148
Fast Jimmy

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Thanks for the reply, David, to my comments. Looking back, I realize I wasn't entirely concise nor focused in my post, since it seems you quoted and responded to all parts except the one I was really concerned with:

Most of these complaints, such as choice, narrative purpose, companion personality concepts and how the team approaches endings... none of these are gameplay elements. These aren't features you can show us in a demo. You can't develop them with a software team, but rather lay them out as philosophy guidelines when creating the bulk of narrative/written content.


Let me phrase it a different way... why is player choice important to YOU? Having 'more' or 'deeper' as a goal is, obviously, subjective. But answering a question that is neither a laundry list of gameplay elements, nor a revealer of the story itself... what do you think designing a game that offers choice does for the game, for the player, for the development process in general, etc. Or what do you think the role of companions should be?

I suppose many of us would maybe rather hear how you feel about this in games in general, not even just DA3 or Bioware titles at all. Have your feelings on game story-telling changed in the past few years? Do you areas of growth for the industry? For all media?

I know you can't go into specifics about DA3, but it seems we are all too focused on details that we are forgetting to discuss what value story and choice has for games in general.

#149
astreqwerty

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Blair Brown wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Watch one of the panels they did, in which the lead developers specifically mention the lessons they learned from previous games, especially DA2.

Here's the PAX Panel: 

And here's another small panel from the NYCC:

There. OP's question actually answered.

Nope. Not answered. What I got out of that was alot of noncommital "Might" and "watch us". Whilst I really and truely appreciate the latter bit, its not reassuring given the recent history. I simply do not trust Bioware to deliver, despite their wellmeaning words.

I know that the DA3 team isnt = the ME3 team, and that they cannot be "held accountable" for ME3. But... They delivered DA2. They delivered rehashed level designs and (in my opinion) not very well thought out DLC for DA:O and a DA2 that was not really what alot of DA:O afficionados were looking for. 

I didnt create this thread to slam the DA3 team. Im sure they are doing the best within the constraints of their budgets, time and planning. And I think most loved DA:O. Some even enjoyed the DA2 DLC. I never got around to it. I tired of DA2 20 minutes into the gameplay. I was never really able to enter what writers call "suspension of disbelief" and feel that the toon was "mine". Im not the only one with that experience.

I am however very concerned with "streamlining" and the effect it has on "storytelling". Streamlining has so far ment that the storytelling has been on the backburner for action and nice visual effects. Both for DA2 and for ME3. And its been a hefty staple of the DLC. More action and hefty effects to gloss over a story that was less than up to par when compared to DA:O. I see little evidence and I have heard few (if any) statements that would cause me to reevaluate my presumption that DA3 will  be "more of the same" rather than "a return to old values".

I would like for the Dev team to try to dispell my concerns. They are, after all, concerns shared by many.


It seems like what you want from us is "the game" or atleast a detailed list of all the features, story plots, artwork, videos etc etc to prove its a good game... which we can't do at this time.

We can't say more than what has already been released in Marks Blog, as well as the few tidbits that are said in twitter feeds or at con's, etc.

If what has already been stated doesnt dispell your concerns, then sorry, you will have to wait for the announce and eventual release of the game before that will happen.

There seems to be a lot of negitivity on these forums, whether true or not, thats what it looks like from a dev's perspective.  People are assuming that we arn't trying to make an amazing game or something, I really don't know.

What I can say for fact, (I don't know if it will quell anyones concerns or not) is that walking down these halls, seeing the passion, and excitement everyone has for this game, the extra hours, hard work, and effort that is being put into it... Sends chills up my spine sometimes.  

It's going to be an amazing game and we can't wait to share it with our fans, who are just as passionate as us.

lol? Are you being serious?Nobody wants you to fail especially the people bothering to post here. It is just that many have lost faith in you and and not a thing you say can reverse that. We need solid proof that you are still worth our attention (and money, if that eludes you) and many have concerns regarding biowares numerous past mistakes. I think thats at least to be expected

Modifié par astreqwerty, 01 novembre 2012 - 06:44 .


#150
Twisted Path

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David Gaider wrote...

Look on the bright side: the time between DAO being announced and the launch of the marketing campaign was about three years. You probably won't have to wait that long this time. :)


A three year wait would be fine by me if it meant getting a good, polished and complete game. Honestly. I'm not trying to be snide or anything.