244 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

David Gaider wrote...

See the backgrounds thing as an example. I mentioned them at the Edmonton Expo, and now I'm either left with the choice of breaking down exactly what that entails and answering the hundred questions that have arisen (long before I'm actually ready to do so) or letting peoples' imaginations run away with them as they conjure images of implementations which could only work if those backgrounds were the entire game. Far better had they simply not come up yet at all.

Believe me there are a few of us, myself included, that just hear "There will be backgrounds" and that's it! I'm not expecting anything else.

Yes these boards are full of people asking about them and needling about them and demanding in a less than nice tone about them. But there are still fans who are just going with the flow on that.

Hell I was disappointed with the human protag choice but now that it's made you just move on. The game will not hinge on which races you can play as. And I believe this is my third post on that subject

Don't let the loudness of certain groups make you regret letting out information.  People are... human.

[obibenjedi]

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

[quote]obibenjedi wrote...

Has anyone officially said why the endings are so different from the rest of the game/ previous games?[/quote]

I'm not sure what the question here is. Are you asking why the endings for DA2/ME3 were so different than, say, DA:O and ME1?

[/quote
Sorry my bad! :pinched: Talking about mass effect games!] That ME3 ending is diffrent from ME1 ME2 and everything apart from last 10mins of ME3.

[WhiteThunder]

Everyone else wrote...

*SNIP*

Blair Brown wrote...
That's what we're all working for,   I want to be able to rave about it to my friends too! 

I agree with the combat points you brought up, for an RPG I prefer more "utility" as you put it, than a pure DPS system.  As for the story, I agree, people flock to our games and know us for that deep and rich story telling with interesting companions, and that will never change, our writing team is top notch.  Now if we can bring up all the other parts of our games (combat, immersion in the world, customization, graphics etc etc) to that level.. well now were talking about a truly amazing gaming experience. 

So when you hear dave or someone else say "mike is focusing on 'x' feature right now" don't think other things are getting left behind, it's quite the opposite, it means were bringing 'x' feature up to the next level 

Well, DA: O was that for me, (except for maybe the graphics, but graphics are just a bonus anyway).  The reason I get annoyed/disheartened/a-hole-ish when I talk about DA2 is because they significantly worsened the story, combat, immersion, customization and art-style of DA: O.  DA: O was a truly amazing gaming experience.  DA2 was solidly mediocre. (I wouldn't say bad, EpicBoot2TheFace).  BG2 didn't take a hacksaw to Baldur's Gate, it built upon it and created one of the best RPGs of all time.  Has anyone other than Rich McCormick said that DA2 was better than DA: O?  Some have said it was different, but not worse.  I haven't seen a single other PC reviewer write that it was better.  It scored an 8 on post-Gerstmann Gamespot, for God's sake.  That's the equivalent of a C.

Modifié par WhiteThunder, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:46 .

[Massa FX]

My guess is that BW learned the core fanbase is full of crazies!

[Scarlet Rabbi]

Thread title sounds so condescending.

I guess one thing Bioware learned is that some people are so full of themselves that they'll talk down to professional game developers as if they're toddlers returning home from pre-school.

"So.....what did you learn today? Ohhh, and that was bad, wasn't it? Who's a-sorry?"....

[AmstradHero]

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

Thread title sounds so condescending.

I guess one thing Bioware learned is that some people are so full of themselves that they'll talk down to professional game developers as if they're toddlers returning home from pre-school.

"So.....what did you learn today? Ohhh, and that was bad, wasn't it? Who's a-sorry?"....

Okay, this is something I don't get. Why is it that so many people seem to believe that game developers are a profession that don't seem to deserve criticism or that the average person can't critique them? Is this part of the "entitled gamers" catchphrase tossed about by IGN employees or their equivalent as a result of the ME3 ending saga?

Most people aren't professional game developers, true. Most people also aren't professional actors or film directors either, but that doesn't mean that they aren't qualified to identify a film with poor acting or one that's just badly put together.

The best form of flattery is criticism. It means people care about a product and would like to see it made even better. Criticism is hard for people to take, but provided that criticism is intelligent and analytical, then it's invaluable.

[Bernhardtbr]

Massa FX wrote...

My guess is that BW learned the core fanbase is full of crazies!

Blizzard forums are WAY worse.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

Thread title sounds so condescending.

I guess one thing Bioware learned is that some people are so full of themselves that they'll talk down to professional game developers as if they're toddlers returning home from pre-school.

"So.....what did you learn today? Ohhh, and that was bad, wasn't it? Who's a-sorry?"....

No, it doesn't. These kinds of questions are asked all the time.

[abaris]

Actually it's probably the wrong question to ask the developers, since they aren't the ones making the strategic decisions. Market research does that and the question should rather be, what is their intended audience.

With DAII and ME3 they obviously tried to reach as broad an audience as possible and only the brass of EA and/or Bioware will know if that calculation had any merit by looking at their sales figures.

[Killer3000ad]

I hope they've learned to drop those pointless fetch quests.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I personally hope they learned that while DA ][ was a step in the wrong direction, it was better than anything else that came out that year outside of Skyrim.

That's a pretty low bar.  In a year with only one genuinely great game, it was better than the rest.

Why not compare it to previous BioWare titles?  Or to games released in other years?

[Fishy]

I very think what BioWare learned is .. when they  do release DA3 CGi trailer .. They will need to be very cautious . Because every tidbit of information will be scanned in super slow motion using sophisticated computing power ... Thus, they can't hide anything from US!

THE BWORG

Modifié par Suprez30, 03 novembre 2012 - 11:46 .

[Realmzmaster]

AmstradHero wrote...

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

Thread title sounds so condescending.

I guess one thing Bioware learned is that some people are so full of themselves that they'll talk down to professional game developers as if they're toddlers returning home from pre-school.

"So.....what did you learn today? Ohhh, and that was bad, wasn't it? Who's a-sorry?"....

Okay, this is something I don't get. Why is it that so many people seem to believe that game developers are a profession that don't seem to deserve criticism or that the average person can't critique them? Is this part of the "entitled gamers" catchphrase tossed about by IGN employees or their equivalent as a result of the ME3 ending saga?

Most people aren't professional game developers, true. Most people also aren't professional actors or film directors either, but that doesn't mean that they aren't qualified to identify a film with poor acting or one that's just badly put together.

The best form of flattery is criticism. It means people care about a product and would like to see it made even better. Criticism is hard for people to take, but provided that criticism is intelligent and analytical, then it's invaluable.

I agree with you about criticism, but a lot of the critcism on these forums has not been intelligent, constructive or analytical. A great deal of some of it has come from a sense of entitlement.

I expect developers to have a thick skin and accept constructive criticism , but some of the stuff thrown around here borders or surpasses what a reasonable person would or should have to stomach.

[Mike_Neel]

Man there were parts of DAII I enjoyed. In fact I'd say I enjoyed about 75 percent of the game. So when you say the devs need to learn from it, or that the "very small minority" of people that like it are wrong for doing so, well I get sad. I feel like you're insinuating that the game was a total failure and that anyone who found it enjoyable is invalidated. And that makes me want to cry...

Just kidding. Being the overly romantic fat kid in Jr High gave me thicker skin and killed my feelings and emotions a long time ago.

But seriously some people enjoyed DAII and to imply that everyone who found something enjoyable out of it is wrong and that your way and preferences for the game is the right and superior way doesn't sit well with me. I enjoyed the characters and setting and while sure I have my gripes and things I'd like to see changed or improved I don't think the game was a total failure and something that they should go back to learn what went wrong. I'm sure there are lessons to be learned from the game, as there are lessons to be learned all in life, but I don't necessarily want to see them go back to the drawing boards scraping everything about DAII that I enjoyed.

[ScarMK]

Mike_Neel wrote...

Man there were parts of DAII I enjoyed. In fact I'd say I enjoyed about 75 percent of the game. So when you say the devs need to learn from it, or that the "very small minority" of people that like it are wrong for doing so, well I get sad. I feel like you're insinuating that the game was a total failure and that anyone who found it enjoyable is invalidated. And that makes me want to cry...

Just kidding. Being the overly romantic fat kid in Jr High gave me thicker skin and killed my feelings and emotions a long time ago.

But seriously some people enjoyed DAII and to imply that everyone who found something enjoyable out of it is wrong and that your way and preferences for the game is the right and superior way doesn't sit well with me. I enjoyed the characters and setting and while sure I have my gripes and things I'd like to see changed or improved I don't think the game was a total failure and something that they should go back to learn what went wrong. I'm sure there are lessons to be learned from the game, as there are lessons to be learned all in life, but I don't necessarily want to see them go back to the drawing boards scraping everything about DAII that I enjoyed.

Compared to other games on the market, DA2 was pretty damn good.  Compared to Biowares' usual standards however, it was pretty damn bad.

[Urazz]

WhiteThunder wrote...

Everyone else wrote...

*SNIP*

Blair Brown wrote...
That's what we're all working for,   I want to be able to rave about it to my friends too! 

I agree with the combat points you brought up, for an RPG I prefer more "utility" as you put it, than a pure DPS system.  As for the story, I agree, people flock to our games and know us for that deep and rich story telling with interesting companions, and that will never change, our writing team is top notch.  Now if we can bring up all the other parts of our games (combat, immersion in the world, customization, graphics etc etc) to that level.. well now were talking about a truly amazing gaming experience. 

So when you hear dave or someone else say "mike is focusing on 'x' feature right now" don't think other things are getting left behind, it's quite the opposite, it means were bringing 'x' feature up to the next level 

Well, DA: O was that for me, (except for maybe the graphics, but graphics are just a bonus anyway).  The reason I get annoyed/disheartened/a-hole-ish when I talk about DA2 is because they significantly worsened the story, combat, immersion, customization and art-style of DA: O.  DA: O was a truly amazing gaming experience.  DA2 was solidly mediocre. (I wouldn't say bad, EpicBoot2TheFace).  BG2 didn't take a hacksaw to Baldur's Gate, it built upon it and created one of the best RPGs of all time.  Has anyone other than Rich McCormick said that DA2 was better than DA: O?  Some have said it was different, but not worse.  I haven't seen a single other PC reviewer write that it was better.  It scored an 8 on post-Gerstmann Gamespot, for God's sake.  That's the equivalent of a C.

The reason why some people say DA2 was different but not better than DA:O was because they did certain things better than the other.  Personally, I think you rate DA:O too high.  Sure it was a great game and all but it wasn't a truly amazing gaming experience.  Nor was DA2 mediocre.  I think the big thing that made DA2 different but not worse than DA:O was the flaws it had (reusuable maps, bad handling of mobs, rushed ending, etc).  If DA2 didn't have those flaws, then it would've definately scored as well as DA:O or even better.

[slimgrin]

At every step they deny doing anything poorly, that they ever screw up. Judging from the their response to criticism, it's the fans at fault not them. They've exhibited zero humility. As my old art teacher used to say, there's no remedy for that type of attitude only repeating past mistakes. So expect more DA2 and ME3. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 04 novembre 2012 - 04:17 .

[Realmzmaster]

Since I liked DA2 I can live with more of it.

[Pink Pony]

What I learned from reading this thread is I do not want to be involved in making video games.

[AmstradHero]

slimgrin wrote...

At every step they deny doing anything poorly, that they ever screw up. Judging from the their response to criticism, it's the fans at fault not them. They've exhibited zero humility. As my old art teacher used to say, there's no remedy for that type of attitude only repeating past mistakes. So expect more DA2 and ME3. 

That's not entirely true.  For ME3, yes, the people involved have denied that anything was poorly delivered, so yes, I do hold them to fault for that. There has been a multitude of intelligent, reasoned and analytical criticism as to why the ending was poorly structured, written and delivered, very little of which has been responded to with little more than "it was our artistic vision". While it's fine for an artist to say it was what they wanted to deliver, to neglect to admit there was anything wrong with the delivery is displaying a lack of awareness that concerns me.

On the DA2 front, however, the team has been more forthcoming in terms of admitting what didn't work. They've acknowledged that the reused environments were inadequate, that the wave combat was not really that tactically satisfying, that the companion system didn't quite work as they had hoped, and that the framed narrative didn't quite quite deliver as successfully as they had envisioned.

This indicates that the DA team is willing to listen and admit where the game didn't live up to the standards they had hoped or those desired by their fans. To me, DA3 represents a crossroads of whether the DA team (and potentially BioWare as a whole) is going to live up to their pedigree, or whether their experimentation and desire to push their style in new directions will ultimately negatively impact on my enjoyment of their games. Of course, mileage my vary, and some others may have liked the new direction more, but that doesn't seem to be a prevailing opinion on these boards or the people I know generally.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 04 novembre 2012 - 06:43 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

slimgrin wrote...

At every step they deny doing anything poorly, that they ever screw up. Judging from the their response to criticism, it's the fans at fault not them. They've exhibited zero humility. As my old art teacher used to say, there's no remedy for that type of attitude only repeating past mistakes. So expect more DA2 and ME3. 

This is true. Bioware doesn't take crticism well at all and often either overreact and start cutting features, or they just blame the consumers for not liking the game. This is a very poor attitude to adopt in any field, but especially in a very creative field like the game industry. No rational person expects perfection, but it isn't wrong to expect competence and the ability to take criticism. It also doesn't hurt to admit you make mistakes.

Honestly, I don't have high hopes for whatever Bioware does next. They seem to be driven by motives other than making great games.

[Arppis]

Wouldn't proof end up spoiling most of the plotlines and such? And now people propably want to devs to show the endings so they could "approve" them, just so that they won't get any negative surprises.

Well you guys can always check the endings from Youtube once the game is released or something and then decide if you are or not going to buy the game. Because there isn't much they can tell you.

Pink Pony wrote...

What I learned from reading this thread is I do not want to be involved in making video games.

And if you do. Don't interact with fans so much. Just listen, but don't respond. Because when you interact, they will start demanding moon from the skies. This has happened with Blizzard too.

Modifié par Arppis, 04 novembre 2012 - 08:58 .

[Allan Schumacher]

slimgrin wrote...

At every step they deny doing anything poorly, that they ever screw up. Judging from the their response to criticism, it's the fans at fault not them. They've exhibited zero humility. As my old art teacher used to say, there's no remedy for that type of attitude only repeating past mistakes. So expect more DA2 and ME3. 

Only to those that skip over it.  I've come out and stated several times that we could have done better with DA2, and there are issues we could have done better (most already beaten to death on these boards: there's the obvious low hanging fruit like repeated levels, and so forth).

Heck, Gaider has even discussed faults he's seen with DAO, the game that was better received than DA2!  And those are just from his posts that I've seen!

If you think we're just being arrogant and that we feel we never make mistakes, then you're just not paying attention.

Frankly, it sounds like someone needs to take a break and recognize there's more to life.  Sitting around grinding axes and picking bones is as much a negative reflection on yourself as it is justified for whatever slights we may have caused against you with our video games....

This is true. Bioware doesn't take crticism well at all and often either
overreact and start cutting features, or they just blame the consumers
for not liking the game. This is a very poor attitude to adopt in any
field, but especially in a very creative field like the game industry.
No rational person expects perfection, but it isn't wrong to expect
competence and the ability to take criticism. It also doesn't hurt to
admit you make mistakes.

Honestly, I don't have high hopes for
whatever Bioware does next. They seem to be driven by motives other than
making great games.

Seriously, if this is the way you feel please just leave.  Reading crap like this just pisses me off and if you think I'm just spending time here because I'm just looking to make a buck, well it's pretty damned disheartening.  Poor attitudes indeed....

What you're doing with this post isn't criticism.  It's grinding an axe.  For all of our apparent failures to accept criticism, you've demonstrated a heck of an inability to get over it and move on.  Which is worse?  (Rhetorical question)

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 04 novembre 2012 - 09:58 .

[Killer3000ad]

Allan, alot of fans were burned by ME3's ending and Bioware's response to the controversy. WHen Bioware heads called the criticism 'toxic' and said they would clarify the endings rather than change it this really burned alot of fans who really wanted the option for a happy ending or at least some way to invalidate the Catalyst. And when marketing released ads with lines like,"it's not the ending it's the journey" and touting "OVER 75 PERFECT SCORES!" well that drove alot of people over the line to constant negativity. To the fans who hated ME3's ending, it seemed like Bioware wasn't listening to them and the ads just seemed like a deliberate insult. And now they lash out at anything a Bioware staff member says. You may have come out and admitted things with DA2 could have done better, but in my opinion alot of the angry fans are channeling their ME3 hatred to DA3.  ME3 may have been done by a different team from DA2 or DA3, but its still Bioware so it's natural that you see the backlash from ME3 spill over into here.

Have you ever played World of Warcraft? Back in the day there was community manager called Tseric. He wasn't a bad person but he appeared to never fully understood or appreciated the concerns of the WoW community. WHen he made promises and assurances that were later broken by Blizzard's design team, the community turned on him. He bore the brunt of all their hate on the forums for years for decisions other people in Blizzard made and he had no power over. To the community it seemed like he didn't care about them, sucked at his job or was an outright liar, or all three, so their wrath mounted and mounted until he finally quit. You can read his story here. http://www.wowwiki.com/Tseric

The problem here Allan, is that the haters think Bioware hasn't learned and won't listen based on how ME3's ending controversy was handled. From your point of view they seem spiteful, toxic, almost vengeful and overzealous and now you are beginning to snap at them. If you find yourself starting to hate talking to us, the best thing to do is to stay out of threads like this and ignore their vitriol. UNless of course, someone at Bioware told you this was your job, in which case take heed from Tseric's story.

Modifié par Killer3000ad, 04 novembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[Pcmag1]

Allan Schumacher
wrote...

Only to those that skip over it.  I've come
out and stated several times that we could have done better with DA2, and there
are issues we could have done better (most already beaten to death on these
boards: there's the obvious low hanging fruit like repeated levels, and so
forth).



Heck, Gaider has even discussed faults he's seen
with DAO, the game that was better received than DA2!  And those are just
from his posts that I've seen!

Hello from Czech Republic. Hello Allan, in Czech rep we have a saying Words are not counted, but measured. And what it says is that, only if you act upon what you say, the things you say have any meaning. 
I don’t think many people doubt Bioware's ability
to contemplate on their past creations, or even self-reflection. But the question is do you use these information?

I apologize if I am wrong and offend. But Allan Bioware is big company whose directive is to make money through making great games. Not other way around, and if you figure a way to make more money despite making it "less great game" can you honestly say Bioware would not seize this opportunity. Say for example if you shifted your target audience from /fantasy/smart dialogue/ hard tactical fight to hack'n'slash/fast paced/ three colors dialogues type of audience (7%of gamers - 24% of gamers) . Especially, since the sale figures are today’s success measure of a game. 

This returns us to previous problem; you know how you could make the game better. But at the same time you know if you for example refrained from three colors conversation system, you would lose 5% of the audience. And so the real question is not what you did LEARN from ME3 / DA2. But what you will USE.

Because words are not counted, but measured my friend.  

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If you think I'm just spending time here because
I'm just looking to make a buck, well it's pretty damned disheartening.

Would you do it for free?

Modifié par Pcmag1, 04 novembre 2012 - 10:52 .