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[NyxFTW]

And honestly enough, it's not a bashing post.

I've never hated Anora, so don't get me wrong. I just wasn't very fond of her for a couple of reasons. Some of which has to do with how suspicious and forthcoming she tend to be. The first time I interacted with her, I was very suspicious, but open minded.

This is my fourth playthrough and this time I would make Alistair king. (I was always a softy for that dork, especially when he hated the idea of being king.) People have said that he would have made a good king, so I thought why not?

But that also meant checking out the competition more thoroughly, so instead of randomly picking out responses to say nay when Anora summoned me for an alliance to bid her queen, I explored her backstory a bit, something I just wasn't that interested to do before.

When dialogue opens up about her and Cailan, she was humorous and affectionate about it. I really liked that. Even if it was a political marriage, it was obvious that she did care for him, citing that Maric's sons were 'charming rogues that loved to dote on their ladies'. (This opens up if you're in a relationship with Alistair. And from her expression, I'm assuming she thinks you've either been ensnared by the charm of a Theirin, or you're as sneaky as she is in trying to be queen yourself.) But she said it with such an amused voice that for the first time I smiled along with her. When I shoved all the questions about the landsmeet aside she was very amicable about other things, even retelling a story about a fortuneteller who gave her an outrageous reading of her future. That was nice. And humanizing.

So I don't 'dislike' her anymore. I found her quite charming when politics is out the window. She was put in a very difficult situation with her father killing off her husband and causing instability during the Blight. Sure she was covering her own ass, but it takes an admiring set of resourcefulness to pull off such a glorious ass covering. It's no doubt in my mind that she had/would be a decent ruler for Ferelden. And of course, that makes it harder because I've got two candidates that I'm sure would be great rulers and I've already married them off in the last playthrough.

Simply put, I kind of like Anora now. And I will be very sad when she's locked up in a tower in this playthrough, but alas. XD

[Ferretinabun]

I always liked her. She ruled alone in my first playthrough.

Then again, your opinion on her probably depends on the choices you made in-game.

Anora can double-cross you twice. When you are rescuing her, if you reveal to Ser Cauthrien that you are rescuing Anora, she will cry out that you are kidnapping her, giving her time to slip away. Also, if you refuse to play along with her before the Landsmeet, or state that you are intent on killing Loghain, then she will publically speak out against you instead of her father at the Landsmeet, losing you at lot of points.

I can see that people who had her turn on them once or even both times will think of her as a snake. But I didn't make those choices in my first playthourgh and she always just seemed a polite and capable woman.

[TEWR]

as my hand is injured, all I can say is what faerunner said.

[NyxFTW]

All valid points. And I definitely believe that how you playthrough the game can change an NPC depending on player choices. Like a good noble Warden would despise someone like Morrigan at a glance or a rather impatient Warden can find Alistair annoying. Like I said before, on subsequent playthroughs Anora had either seem underhanded to keep her crown and on others it's a determination instead.

I suppose the bottom line for the thread I made is that looks can be deceiving. I wasn't a real champ for sticking around and asking follow up questions with important characters. Now that I do, I see a whole new dimension to their inner workings.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I married her on one of my human noble playthroughs. I like to hope that there's love in the marriage, but judging by Awakening, there's really no way to tell.

[sylvanaerie]

She's queen in about half my playthroughs. Usually, though he makes a passably good king, I keep Alistair as a Grey Warden. It's something he loves doing and takes special pride/joy in. Anora also does a passably good job being queen, and it's something she takes joy/pride in doing. I get the feeling she will never be as beloved to the people as Alistair is, but she does make some of the hard choices a ruler has to make with much more ruthlessness than Alistair would.

I don't consider her 'betrayals' to be such. The Warden goes in to the Arl of Denerim's estate knowing she's there as a prisoner and is in disguise to avoid Howe/Loghain's men. If you blab who she is, you kind of tossed her under a bus to save your own skin. At that point, you kind of deserved what happened. And she only turns on you if you don't agree to support her in the landsmeet. She never out and out says "I'll support Alistair if that's what you choose" when you talk to her. Betrayal implies at either of those points that she actively stabs you in the back, which she doesn't do. Unless you tell her, yea I'll join an alliance and your daddy must die, in which case, the daughter wins out over being queen enough she will try to protect him.

She's a complex character, one I can't say I like per se, but one I can definitely relate to.

[Ferretinabun]

Faerunner wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Anora can double-cross you twice. When you are rescuing her, if you reveal to Ser Cauthrien that you are rescuing Anora, she will cry out that you are kidnapping her, giving her time to slip away. Also, if you refuse to play along with her before the Landsmeet, or state that you are intent on killing Loghain, then she will publically speak out against you instead of her father at the Landsmeet, losing you at lot of points.

To be fair, you go in being told that her father might kill her. She tells you flat out that she's disguised herself as a guard because she doesn't want to get caught by either her father's men or Howe's men, as both want her locked up. I think springing her out of her cell only to hand her over to father's nearest guard, when rescuing her from her father was what you're there in the first place, is kind of a double-cross on the player's part.

If you refuse to "play along" with her before the Landsmeet? I think what you mean is you refuse to enter an alliance with her. "I'll support you against my father if you support my bid for the throne." If you refuse to support her, you haven't entered any sort of alliance and she's under no obligation to support you. What's more, Anora genuinely believes she's the country's best chance for success, so when she tells the Landsmeet she believes you're a threat to the nation because you wouldn't support her bid for the throne, she believes herself.

As for telling her that her father has to die; he's her father. Of course she's going to try to protect him. Also remember two things; she only talks about her father if you choose to bring him up  first, and she only tries to protect him if you insist he HAS to die. Honestly, if you're the insensitive jerk that chooses to bring up her father just to tell her he has to die, then you really come across poorly.

Even if you haven't entered into an agreement before the Landsmeet, you have still risked your life to save her - from Loghain. So then immediately turning round and publically throwing her support behind him instead of you does come across as ungrateful to say the least. She is not supporting friends or allies - she's supporting whoever offers her the best chance for the throne, irrespective of loyalty, gratitude or family ties.

And it's not just if you refuse her terms - it's also if you fail to strike a deal. A player could simply neglect to speak to her at all - simply save her, do the alienage, then the Landsmeet - and she'll support her former captor against her rescuer. That should surely strike the player as schizophrenic.

Again, I don't dislike Anora. I think she's a shrewd politician and suited for the role of queen. But it's easy for a player to get off on the wrong foot with her.

[likeorasgod]

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

I married her on one of my human noble playthroughs. I like to hope that there's love in the marriage, but judging by Awakening, there's really no way to tell.

I have never married her, I have allways put Allister as king, so in this play through I"m doing with my evil Noble male I'm going to take the whinny Allisters head off and Marry her.  Yah she thinks she's going to be in charge lol...(insert evil laughter.)

It's not hard to get her support and still pick Allister or for them to marry.  Just never say you support him and never talk bad about her father (as in your going to kill him).  I get her support almost every time even if I get Allister to lock her up in the tower pretty much every time.

Since I won't be doing the whole play through twice for this, I plan to do two endings:  One with the baby options and one without with Logan takeing the killing blow and one with me, cause I want to read how he turns out as alive if we take the baby option from Morgan.

[SeptimusMagistos]

I can understand why Anora behaves the way she does, but I cannot forgive it. If she wasn't willing to support my Warden against Loghain, she should have arranged a rescue from someone who already wants her on the throne. Instead she means to use the Warden's support to whatever extent she can and then turn against him as soon as he stops serving her ambition.

There is no room for lies and betrayal in politics. Anora learned that the hard way.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I can understand why Anora behaves the way she does, but I cannot forgive it. If she wasn't willing to support my Warden against Loghain, she should have arranged a rescue from someone who already wants her on the throne. Instead she means to use the Warden's support to whatever extent she can and then turn against him as soon as he stops serving her ambition.

Who else was there, besides the Warden? And why should she trust Alistair as king? Don't bother giving an argument based on personal knowledge of him, she doesn't have any. All she knows is that his brother was basically a moron.

There is no room for lies and betrayal in politics. Anora learned that the hard way.

You obviously haven't been reading the fluff. Or paying attention to the plot of Dragon Age II.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Who else was there, besides the Warden? And why should she trust Alistair as king? Don't bother giving an argument based on personal knowledge of him, she doesn't have any. All she knows is that his brother was basically a moron.

If the Warden is the only person who can help her, she should have stuck to their initial 'Anora is in trouble and we all agree Loghain must be stopped' bargain. Or at the very least she should have negotiated in good faith and told the Warden that she wouldn't support him unless he supported her and left her father alive. Instead she instantly turns to deception and betrayal to get her way.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You obviously haven't been reading the fluff. Or paying attention to the plot of Dragon Age II.

Did so. Total honesty worked out much better for everyone involved; deception only caused problems. All the liars and traitors ended up dead there too.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Who else was there, besides the Warden? And why should she trust Alistair as king? Don't bother giving an argument based on personal knowledge of him, she doesn't have any. All she knows is that his brother was basically a moron.

If the Warden is the only person who can help her, she should have stuck to their initial 'Anora is in trouble and we all agree Loghain must be stopped' bargain. Or at the very least she should have negotiated in good faith and told the Warden that she wouldn't support him unless he supported her and left her father alive. Instead she instantly turns to deception and betrayal to get her way.

What I'm saying is that she knew that this bargain would end with Alistair on the throne, and didn't trust him to rule.  And exactly why do you expect her to be honest with the Warden when said Warden is armed and Anora isn't? Especially since said Warden has shown themselves to be capable of winning fights that oughtn't be winnable? Even without that, Anora's best chance of her father not dying is to be at the Landsmeet with a say in what's happening. Do you really think she expects you to let that happen without promising to support you?

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You obviously haven't been reading the fluff. Or paying attention to the plot of Dragon Age II.

Did so. Total honesty worked out much better for everyone involved; deception only caused problems. All the liars and traitors ended up dead there too.

The Tevinter Imperium as a whole seems to be doing well, considering. And the Orlesian Nobles have only recently started having trouble. Yes, Meghren died, but Orlais as a whole did well enough. Yes Celene is dealing with a rebellion, but my understanding is that she's actually better morally than the rebel faction's leader, which is part of why she's facing one. If she loses, that's her comeuppance, now what about theirs? And for how long have the Orlesian nobles basically gotten away with everything, anyway? And the Kirkwall nobles you save in DA:2 are in the process of getting called out for massive corruption when you stop the process. My point is that people can get away with lying, hypocrisy, and basically outright evil actions in Thedas. It has a long history of happening. Heck, most of the people who die as a result of betraying people are probably your work.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 05 novembre 2012 - 04:49 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

What I'm saying is that she knew that this bargain would end with Alistair on the throne, and didn't trust him to rule.

That's what happens when you bargain from a suboptimal position. Sometimes you have to accept outcomes that aren't your ideal.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

And exactly why do you expect her to be honest with the Warden when said Warden is armed and Anora isn't? Especially since said Warden has shown themselves to be capable of winning fights that oughtn't be winnable?

You just answered your own question.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Even without that, Anora's best chance of her father not dying is to be at the Landsmeet with a say in what's happening. Do you really think she expects you to let that happen without promising to support you?

Again, I understand why she does what she does. I'm just not having someone who thinks like that on the throne.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
And the Kirkwall nobles you save in DA:2 are in the process of getting called out for massive corruption when you stop the process.

Is this the pro-Templar version? Because in pro-mage they're attacked for conspiring to remove a ruler. Technically they aren't lying to anyone about that, they're just hiding their activities.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
My point is that people can get away with lying, hypocrisy, and basically outright evil actions in Thedas. It has a long history of happening. Heck, most of the people who die as a result of betraying people are probably your work.

Perhaps. But they died nonetheless. Ergo, lying and betrayal fails by way of self-fulfilling prophecy. The lesson here, of course, is to never betray people you can't take in a fight. Even those of them who aren't coincidentally dedicated to cleaning up the politics of Thedas won't appreciate it.

[Corker]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

If the Warden is the only person who can help her, she should have stuck to their initial 'Anora is in trouble and we all agree Loghain must be stopped' bargain. Or at the very least she should have negotiated in good faith and told the Warden that she wouldn't support him unless he supported her and left her father alive. Instead she instantly turns to deception and betrayal to get her way.

What initial 'Anora is in trouble and we all agree Loghain must be stopped' bargain?  I remember an 'Anora is in trouble and it will look really bad if her death is pinned on Eamon' mission motivated out of pure self-interest on Eamon's part.

And she doesn't 'instantly' turn to deception and betrayal.  She negotiates in perfectly good faith - and follows up on it at the Landsmeet - from the start of the conversation.  She only bluffs the Warden late in negotiations, if it becomes clear her throne or her father are in danger. 

[SeptimusMagistos]

Corker wrote...

What initial 'Anora is in trouble and we all agree Loghain must be stopped' bargain?  I remember an 'Anora is in
trouble and it will look really bad if her death is pinned on Eamon' mission motivated out of pure self-interest on Eamon's part.

I might be misremembering about the first part, but I definitely remember us all agreeing that Loghain must be stopped. If she didn't want to be part of the anti-Loghain club she should have just said so.

Corker wrote...
And she doesn't 'instantly' turn to deception and betrayal.  She negotiates in perfectly good faith - and follows up on it at the Landsmeet - from the start of the conversation.

As long as you agree to give her everything she wants. When presented with terms that are unacceptable to her does she say so and try to use her limited bargaining power to get part of what she wants? Nope. She decides to flat-out lie about her positions and attempts to double-cross her erstwhile allies.

Faerunner wrote...

Says the person that wouldn't voluntarily rescue her unless she unconditionally served the ambition of the Warden.

Not true. I'd probably do it anyway.

Faerunner wrote...She saw an opportunity to strike an agreement that she thought would be beneficial to both parties. You and she both want Loghain deposed from the regency. You and she both know you'll need a strong case against Loghain to get the wishy-washy Landsmeet to empeach him. You both know you'll have to replace him with a reigning monarch in order to get the Landsmeet to unite against the Blight. She offers to give you the support you need to empeach him in exchange for you giving the support she needs to regain her throne. It's a symbiotic agreement. "I support you, you support me." If you decide you don't want to support her, it's not exactly fair or realistic to expect her to support you no matter what you decide to do.

And yet when spoken to she implies that she's willing to offer you her support regardless of who's replacing Loghain, as long as it's someone other than him. If she's not willing to bargain on the terms offered she needs to just say so. Because once I know I can't trust anything she says our negotiations break down and I'm forced to treat her as an enemy.

Corker wrote...
You clearly don't know anything about politics. Hell, have you even been paying attention to the game?

Sure I have. Lying and betrayal has brought everyone nothing but grief, including the very people doing it. It might be effective in the short run, but as Anora learned too late, it fails to produce long-term results.

Modifié par SeptimusMagistos, 05 novembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

What I'm saying is that she knew that this bargain would end with Alistair on the throne, and didn't trust him to rule.

That's what happens when you bargain from a suboptimal position. Sometimes you have to accept outcomes that aren't your ideal.

Anora didn't believe the country could afford such, and it only gets worse if her father is still in danger.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

And exactly why do you expect her to be honest with the Warden when said Warden is armed and Anora isn't? Especially since said Warden has shown themselves to be capable of winning fights that oughtn't be winnable?

You just answered your own question.

You expect her to honestly say to an armed warrior "I will not support you politically" while in his fortress.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Even without that, Anora's best chance of her father not dying is to be at the Landsmeet with a say in what's happening. Do you really think she expects you to let that happen without promising to support you?

Again, I understand why she does what she does. I'm just not having someone who thinks like that on the throne.

No lying, under any circumstances?

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
And the Kirkwall nobles you save in DA:2 are in the process of getting called out for massive corruption when you stop the process.

Is this the pro-Templar version? Because in pro-mage they're attacked for conspiring to remove a ruler. Technically they aren't lying to anyone about that, they're just hiding their activities.

"Like fat dathrasi you feed and feed, and complain only when your meal is taken away!" Is this ringing a bell?

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
My point is that people can get away with lying, hypocrisy, and basically outright evil actions in Thedas. It has a long history of happening. Heck, most of the people who die as a result of betraying people are probably your work.

Perhaps. But they died nonetheless. Ergo, lying and betrayal fails by way of self-fulfilling prophecy. The lesson here, of course, is to never betray people you can't take in a fight. Even those of them who aren't coincidentally dedicated to cleaning up the politics of Thedas won't appreciate it.

The most recent examples you can give died nonetheless, and not in Tevinter. It doesn't always happen. Heck, I think most of the Orlesian nobles are still probably doing okay. And I didn't mention the Dwarven Succesion thing, where the only way to have corruption curbed is to put the biggest snake in the bunch on the throne.

Edit: Or you meant the people you killed died nonetheless? Yeah, there's that, but I still don't think you really get just how much backstabbing goes on in politics. You're not going to clean it up, and probably the best reaction to it is to put an actual politician in power to represent the already weak country of Ferelden, or failing that at least cause Alistair to grow some backbone before you put him in the top-spot and expect him to negotiate. (I recall a previous thread where you refuse because it weakens his motivation to do what's right. I'd like to point out, however, that hardening him doesn't seem to push him far enough in that direction for concern.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 05 novembre 2012 - 06:59 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Anora didn't believe the country could afford such, and it only gets worse if her father is still in danger.

Again, I understand her motivations. I still find her actions unacceptable.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You expect her to honestly say to an armed warrior "I will not support you politically" while in his fortress.

As opposed to betraying him at a latter date and hoping that the royal guards are tougher than the small army that tried to apprehend the Warden at Howe's estate, yes. People sometimes take refusal badly. People nigh universally do so with betrayal.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No lying, under any circumstances?

Tough one. I'm willing to support lying to people who you know for sure are lying to you or are known for lying to others. Other than that? It's pretty situational, but the fact she resorted to deception twice in such quick succession makes me doubt her character. Moreover, it makes me doubt her ability as a ruler. How do I know she won't try to pull the same tricks on a macro scale, losing allies for Ferelden the same way she lost them for herself?

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

"Like fat dathrasi you feed and feed, and complain only when your meal is taken away!" Is this ringing a bell?

Oh, that's just the Arishok. He thinks it's corruption whenever people switch professions. I will, however, point out that being honest when dealing with him tends to pay off a lot better than lying.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The most recent examples you can give died nonetheless, and not in Tevinter. It doesn't always happen. Heck, I think most of the Orlesian nobles are still probably doing okay. And I didn't mention the Dwarven Succesion thing, where the only way to have corruption curbed is to put the biggest snake in the bunch on the throne.

To be fair about it, that's just because there isn't an Alistair equivalent running around. If there were, I would put him on the throne in a heartbeat.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Edit: Or you meant the people you killed died nonetheless? Yeah, there's that, but I still don't think you really get just how much backstabbing goes on in politics. You're not going to clean it up, and probably the best reaction to it is to put an actual politician in power to represent the already weak country of Ferelden, or failing that at least cause Alistair to grow some backbone before you put him in the top-spot and expect him to negotiate. (I recall a previous thread where you refuse because it weakens his motivation to do what's right. I'd like to point out, however, that hardening him doesn't seem to push him far enough in that direction for concern.)

If by politician you mean Anora, I felt compelled to keep her away from power because I felt she had the potential to utterly destroy Ferelden. Applying her style of conflict resolution to the kinds of trouble Ferelden is likely to find itself in is a horrible, horrible idea.

And hardening Alistair isn't a huge loss, but it's definitely a step in the wrong direction.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]SeptimusMagistos wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Anora didn't believe the country could afford such, and it only gets worse if her father is still in danger.[/quote]

Again, I understand her motivations. I still find her actions unacceptable. [/quote]

You think it's unacceptable to lie for the sake of an entire country?

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You expect her to honestly say to an armed warrior "I will not support you politically" while in his fortress.[/quote]

As opposed to betraying him at a latter date and hoping that the royal guards are tougher than the small army that tried to apprehend the Warden at Howe's estate, yes. People sometimes take refusal badly. People nigh universally do so with betrayal. [/quote]

In Eamon's estate, she doesn't even have the royal guards. If the Warden does decide to kill her, there's essentially nothing she can do. And she wants to attend the Landsmeet, so that she can have some say in whether her father lives or dies. Especially if you showed a complete lack of interest in sparing him yourself.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No lying, under any circumstances?[/quote]

Tough one. I'm willing to support lying to people who you know for sure are lying to you or are known for lying to others. Other than that? It's pretty situational, but the fact she resorted to deception twice in such quick succession makes me doubt her character. Moreover, it makes me doubt her ability as a ruler. How do I know she won't try to pull the same tricks on a macro scale, losing allies for Ferelden the same way she lost them for herself? [/quote]

The first time, you did the one thing you were explicitly told could get her killed. The second time, you were trying to take her throne and kill her father. If Ferelden's allies are like that, Ferelden needs new allies.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

"Like fat dathrasi you feed and feed, and complain only when your meal is taken away!" Is this ringing a bell?[/quote]

Oh, that's just the Arishok. He thinks it's corruption whenever people switch professions. I will, however, point out that being honest when dealing with him tends to pay off a lot better than lying. [/quote]

He seems to have a point. My impression is that the qunari are getting converts because Kirkwall is so horribly mismanaged that even the totalitarian qun sounds better.

Anway, the point I was trying to raise is that the nobles get away with their corruption, largely because of Hawke.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The most recent examples you can give died nonetheless, and not in Tevinter. It doesn't always happen. Heck, I think most of the Orlesian nobles are still probably doing okay. And I didn't mention the Dwarven Succesion thing, where the only way to have corruption curbed is to put the biggest snake in the bunch on the throne.[/quote]

To be fair about it, that's just because there isn't an Alistair equivalent running around. If there were, I would put him on the throne in a heartbeat. [/quote]

An Alistair equivalent would probably have failed, especially if he's eqiuvalent to an unhardened Alistair. Edit: In fact, Harrowmont can be considered to be such. Not because Alistair is morally myopic with regards to the poor, but because Harrowmont just lets the nobles do whatever, and an Alistair who doesn't have it driven home that he ought to stand up for himself will very likely do the same thing.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Edit: Or you meant the people you killed died nonetheless? Yeah, there's that, but I still don't think you really get just how much backstabbing goes on in politics. You're not going to clean it up, and probably the best reaction to it is to put an actual politician in power to represent the already weak country of Ferelden, or failing that at least cause Alistair to grow some backbone before you put him in the top-spot and expect him to negotiate. (I recall a previous thread where you refuse because it weakens his motivation to do what's right. I'd like to point out, however, that hardening him doesn't seem to push him far enough in that direction for concern.)
[/quote]

If by politician you mean Anora, I felt compelled to keep her away from power because I felt she had the potential to utterly destroy Ferelden. Applying her style of conflict resolution to the kinds of trouble Ferelden is likely to find itself in is a horrible, horrible idea. [/quote]

Anora's style of conflict resolution seems to be to let things lie unless something really bad is about to happen. If Alistair kills Loghain, Anora just lets it go. She makes clear she's unhappy, but she doesn't do anything to him over it. The only time she works to get you killed is if you either put the country in a position she doesn't think can work for it, or she catches you actively trying to kill her father.

As further proof of this, she hasn't managed to get the place invaded yet, has she? Heck, even Celene likes her, and Celene was trying to steal Anora's man!

[quote]
And hardening Alistair isn't a huge loss, but it's definitely a step in the wrong direction.
[/quote]

I would argue its not. He becomes willing to deal with Loghain not being executed without ditching the country completely, and as I previously mentioned there's some question as to Eamon's intentions regarding Alistair's rule. Would an unharded Alistair stand up to Eamon?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 05 novembre 2012 - 08:51 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You think it's unacceptable to lie for the sake of an entire country?

It's not that I find lying under those circumstances morally reprehensible, it's that I find it stupid and entirely likely to backfire. Which it did.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

In Eamon's estate, she doesn't even have the royal guards. If the Warden does decide to kill her, there's essentially nothing she can do. And she wants to attend the Landsmeet, so that she can have some say in whether her father lives or dies. Especially if you showed a complete lack of interest in sparing him yourself.

Again, yes, she wants that. She can either accept that you can't always get what you want or she can make an alliance with a man she just claimed was dangerously unbalanced while sacrificing any chance of cooperation with the one who's actually proven capable of accomplishing things. If she were just a person, I could possibly forgive that. But those sorts of shifting allegiances are unacceptable in someone who wants power over others.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The first time, you did the one thing you were explicitly told could get her killed.

Nope. This is a stupid argument when she uses it and it's a stupid argument when her supporters do. Catherine clearly doesn't know that Howe was involved in kidnapping Anora, and she certainly isn't aware of Loghain's involvement. This was the perfect time to try to explain the situation to her. If the negotiation goes well, everone benefits. If it doesn't, the Warden is once again left with the same option of surrendering or fighting he had before. Here are the outcomes for that situation:

Warden surrenders and Anora fails to get away: she is no worse off than if she had kept her helmet. Or does she think her disguise would work even when captured?

Warden surrenders and Anora gets away: again, she's no worse off than before.

Warden doesn't surrender, Anora doesn't get away: she's actually better off because there is no chance that one of the archers is going to pick her as a target.

Warden doesn't surrender, Anora gets away: she is still no worse off than before.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
The second time, you were trying to take her throne and kill her father. If Ferelden's allies are like that, Ferelden needs new allies.

And she thinks she's actually helping by telling the Warden she's cool with this? What was her plan for after the Warden kills whatever guards are sent against him?

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

He seems to have a point. My impression is that the qunari are getting converts because Kirkwall is so horribly mismanaged that even the totalitarian qun sounds better.

Anway, the point I was trying to raise is that the nobles get away with their corruption, largely because of Hawke.

It's a complicated situation, all right. But by your own argument corruption didn't exactly work out all that well for those nobles or the people underneath them. That's a poor argument for trying to insert more corrupt people into the system.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

An Alistair equivalent would probably have failed, especially if he's eqiuvalent to an unhardened Alistair. Edit: In fact, Harrowmont can be considered to be such. Not because Alistair is morally myopic with regards to the poor, but because Harrowmont just lets the nobles do whatever, and an Alistair who doesn't have it driven home that he ought to stand up for himself will very likely do the same thing.

Debatable. The myopia is really my biggest problem with Harrowmont.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Anora's style of conflict resolution seems to be to let things lie unless something really bad is about to happen. If Alistair kills Loghain, Anora just lets it go. She makes clear she's unhappy, but she doesn't do anything to him over it. The only time she works to get you killed is if you either put the country in a position she doesn't think can work for it, or she catches you actively trying to kill her father.

When Alistair told her she was going to be locked in a tower she told him she'd have done worse to him if their positions were reversed. It served to reassure me that I made the right choice. I was a bit sick of the 'ends justify the means' crowd by then.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
As further proof of this, she hasn't managed to get the place invaded yet, has she?

Does a civil war count? It's mostly Loghain's fault, but she was in his camp at the time.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I would argue its not. He becomes willing to deal with Loghain not being executed without ditching the country completely, and as I previously mentioned there's some question as to Eamon's intentions regarding Alistair's rule. Would an unharded Alistair stand up to Eamon?

I feel like I can trust Alistair to throw the mother and grandmother of all temper tantrums if Eamon tries to get him to do something that goes against his beliefs. I also feel like I can trust Alistair to make bolder moves than Anora would in regards to doing what's right.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]SeptimusMagistos wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You think it's unacceptable to lie for the sake of an entire country?[/quote]

It's not that I find lying under those circumstances morally reprehensible, it's that I find it stupid and entirely likely to backfire. Which it did. [/quote]

Brutal honesty doesn't always work better. How the Warden reacts to being outright refused depends on said Warden, and at least if he reacts badly to being backstabbed at the Landsmeet there's some chance she won't get stabbed.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

In Eamon's estate, she doesn't even have the royal guards. If the Warden does decide to kill her, there's essentially nothing she can do. And she wants to attend the Landsmeet, so that she can have some say in whether her father lives or dies. Especially if you showed a complete lack of interest in sparing him yourself.[/quote]

[quote]

Again, yes, she wants that. She can either accept that you can't always get what you want or she can make an alliance with a man she just claimed was dangerously unbalanced while sacrificing any chance of cooperation with the one who's actually proven capable of accomplishing things. If she were just a person, I could possibly forgive that. But those sorts of shifting allegiances are unacceptable in someone who wants power over others. [/quote][/quote]

Being able to keep allegiances fluid is kind of neccesary in politics. No country is going to agree with you on everything.

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The first time, you did the one thing you were explicitly told could get her killed.[/quote]

Nope. This is a stupid argument when she uses it and it's a stupid argument when her supporters do. Catherine clearly doesn't know that Howe was involved in kidnapping Anora, and she certainly isn't aware of Loghain's involvement. [/quote][/quote]

At what point does that become clear?

[quote][quote]
This was the perfect time to try to explain the situation to her. If the negotiation goes well, everone benefits. If it doesn't, the Warden is once again left with the same option of surrendering or fighting he had before. Here are the outcomes for that situation:

Warden surrenders and Anora fails to get away: she is no worse off than if she had kept her helmet. Or does she think her disguise would work even when captured?

Warden surrenders and Anora gets away: again, she's no worse off than before.

Warden doesn't surrender, Anora doesn't get away: she's actually better off because there is no chance that one of the archers is going to pick her as a target.

Warden doesn't surrender, Anora gets away: she is still no worse off than before.

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
The second time, you were trying to take her throne and kill her father. If Ferelden's allies are like that, Ferelden needs new allies.[/quote]

And she thinks she's actually helping by telling the Warden she's cool with this? What was her plan for after the Warden kills whatever guards are sent against him? [/quote]

Since nobody in Thedas is aware that the Warden is made invincible through plot and reloads, Anora still has good reason to believe an archer might get in a lucky shot.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

He seems to have a point. My impression is that the qunari are getting converts because Kirkwall is so horribly mismanaged that even the totalitarian qun sounds better.

Anway, the point I was trying to raise is that the nobles get away with their corruption, largely because of Hawke.[/quote]

It's a complicated situation, all right. But by your own argument corruption didn't exactly work out all that well for those nobles or the people underneath them. That's a poor argument for trying to insert more corrupt people into the system. [/quote]

Since I view Anora as (mainly) unselfish in motivation, I view her as a reasonable countermeasure against the Kirkwall nobles. Also, the original point "You haven't played Dragon Age II if you don't think corruption has a place in politics" was mainly a joke.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

An Alistair equivalent would probably have failed, especially if he's eqiuvalent to an unhardened Alistair. Edit: In fact, Harrowmont can be considered to be such. Not because Alistair is morally myopic with regards to the poor, but because Harrowmont just lets the nobles do whatever, and an Alistair who doesn't have it driven home that he ought to stand up for himself will very likely do the same thing.[/quote]

Debatable. The myopia is really my biggest problem with Harrowmont.[/quote]

I'm not certain you actually read the edit. But then again, there is a bit much in this back and forth. What I was saying was that my main problem with an unhardened Alistair is that he'll just go with anything the nobles say, or at least everything Arl Eamon says. That's also my lesser problem with Harrowmont. Hence, he can be considered an Alistair equivalent in that limited sense.

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Anora's style of conflict resolution seems to be to let things lie unless something really bad is about to happen. If Alistair kills Loghain, Anora just lets it go. She makes clear she's unhappy, but she doesn't do anything to him over it. The only time she works to get you killed is if you either put the country in a position she doesn't think can work for it, or she catches you actively trying to kill her father.[/quote]

When Alistair told her she was going to be locked in a tower she told him she'd have done worse to him if their positions were reversed. It served to reassure me that I made the right choice. I was a bit sick of the 'ends justify the means' crowd by then. [/quote]

On the other hand, if you make her queen and Loghain is already dead, she does nothing of the sort. When I married her and let him kill Loghain, she accepted both outcomes. She fought to save her father, giving in only when it was clear she had lost, but when it was clear I'd won, all she did was ask if I was sure I wanted to marry her, and passive-aggressively say "You could have done something different you know."

[quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
As further proof of this, she hasn't managed to get the place invaded yet, has she?[/quote]

Does a civil war count? It's mostly Loghain's fault, but she was in his camp at the time. [/quote][/quote]

Considering that this was Loghain's crap political skills, I'd say that the extent of her mistake was following his lead to that extent. (Let's not get into whether or not she should have been following him at all. That's a separate argument, and I'm already having trouble keeping track of all these different points at once.)

[quote][quote]
[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I would argue its not. He becomes willing to deal with Loghain not being executed without ditching the country completely, and as I previously mentioned there's some question as to Eamon's intentions regarding Alistair's rule. Would an unharded Alistair stand up to Eamon?[/quote]

I feel like I can trust Alistair to throw the mother and grandmother of all temper tantrums if Eamon tries to get him to do something that goes against his beliefs. I also feel like I can trust Alistair to make bolder moves than Anora would in regards to doing what's right.
[/quote][/quote]

What's right isn't always the issue. What is best for Ferelden takes precedence. On the other hand, you could just put them both on the throne, then you have a voice for both on the table. I believe both to be important, so that's usually what I do. Besides, who doesn't like a figurehead king who sneaks out to drink with the commoners, next to a scholar queen who builds a university?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 novembre 2012 - 09:27 .

[Jedimaster88]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Since I view Anora as (mainly) unselfish in motivation, I view her as a reasonable countermeasure against the Kirkwall nobles. Also, the original point "You haven't played Dragon Age II if you don't think corruption has a place in politics" was mainly a joke.

Doesnt Loghain himself warn that Anora´s TRUE loyalty is to herself and that she is willing to sacrifice anything for HER goals?

I kind of see her as a person who´s own goals come first and that she hides those goals behind noble intentions.