84 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

Since my first opinion of Anora is that she's reasonably honest for a politician if a bit overly dramatic, my second opinion would be that she rocks that hairstyle.

[Lotto]

Wouldn't ****** on fire to put her out. Still made her queen alongside Alistair.

[TEWR]

Faerunner wrote...

Then the epilogue rolled around, revealing that Anora cracked down on the alienage when starvation drove the elves to start food riots, and I thought: "maybe she's too much like her father after all."

We don't know the exact circumstances of the riot, however. Riots are generally not very peaceful. They can be, but that makes them more protests then riots. But given how the people of Amaranthine were ready to attack the Warden-Commander/Hero of Ferelden, I'd say it's likely the Elves grew violent -- possibly due to being unable to buy food from human merchants because of a lot of tension.

Anora can hardly cater to a mob's demands -- that shows weakness, which makes a mob grow bolder down the line -- and she can't force the food to grow faster after the Blight devastated much of the farmland.

And I doubt she'd have been able to convince them to stand down, as the Elves might take issue with her relation to Teyrn Loghain -- who signed off on slavery to fund the army, though I find that to be due to him not having the Circle on his side because of Wynne and because Howe brought up the notion -- and also take issue with how she's lived a rich life for all her life, so she can't possibly relate.

If they grew violent and she's the only one on the throne, the only real course of action politically is to put it down, sad as that is. But that's if they grew violent.

Which is why I have her marry a hardened Alistair. They can deal with things the other isn't really capable of. Alistair becomes well-loved by the common populus while Anora is the more politically savvy one -- though Alistair shows himself as wanting to learn as well.

Alistair would be able to interact with the populus because he's lived a very... meager life so he knows where they come from. And they'd listen to him, more then likely.

Anora controls the nobility, Alistair controls the commoners.

Now if they could only have a child or two, things would be peachy.

Faerunner wrote...

Loghain wants freedom for all of Fereldan, but sells the elves into slavery to pay for his war

But he probably wouldn't have had to do that if the Circle had allied itself with him, as then Loghain could've made use of the Lucrosians/Tranquil to churn out enchanted goods he could sell to fund his war.

So I blame Wynne and Howe more then I do Loghain. He signed off on it, but reluctantly so. Howe more then likely brought up the idea and Wynne's actions earlier caused Loghain to be unable to use the only alternative means to garner money.

Faerunner wrote...

Anora wants prosperity for all of Fereldan, but cracks down on the starving elves instead of addressing the reason they started riotting in the first place.

She can't address the reason they rioted. The Blight destroyed much of the farmland and she can't yell at the crops and make them grow faster. Goods are scarce at this time and I doubt the Elves would've listened to her for the very reasons I stated.

Faerunner wrote...

Mac Tirs don't want to take the time come up with an alternate way to pay for war

Loghain had an alternative way.

Wynne ****ed it up.

or find a way to alleviate hunger so the elves can be spared; it's quicker and easier to just tear into them now and sweep up the bodies later.

What other way is there? With much of the farmland destroyed, goods are scarce. Sure, they could probably start fishing a lot, but given the territorial disputes between Ferelden and Kirkwall -- as we see in DAII -- that might start to get a bit.... violent.

In fact, Amaranthine ships were being attacked by someone high up in Kirkwall's nobility. What if those ships had food? That'd certainly cause problems.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2013 - 05:11 .

[Jedimaster88]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


But he probably wouldn't have had to do that if the Circle had allied itself with him, as then Loghain could've made use of the Lucrosians/Tranquil to churn out enchanted goods he could sell to fund his war.

So I blame Wynne and Howe, not Loghain. He signed off on it, but reluctantly so. Howe more then likely brought up the idea and Wynne's actions earlier caused Loghain to be unable to use the only alternative means to garner money.

Wasnt Wynne fighting on about the same place as Aveline which in this case is the frontline? If so, can you really blame her? Aveline views what happened as betrayal so of course Wynne does also.

Now that I think about it, Im wondering if Loghain tried to contact the circle again after the demon threat was over. Then again it was the warden who solved the situation, not him so I dont know if they had helped him in any way.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


If they grew violent and she's the only one on the throne, the only real course of action politically is to put it down, sad as that is. But that's if they grew violent.

This reminds me of a pondering  that I found from my book during high school. Dont remember if it was psychology or some other subject. It was something like this:


There is a basket full of apples. One of the apples has become rotten. You throw the rotten one away. Later there is another rotten apple. (I dont remember if there was one or several rotten apples after the first one)

Is it better to just throw the rotten one(s) away OR do you try to find out if there is something in the basket itself that makes the apples rot?

Modifié par Jedimaster88, 14 décembre 2012 - 07:14 .

[TEWR]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Wasnt Wynne fighting on about the same place as Aveline which in this case is the frontline? If so, can you really blame her? Aveline views what happened as betrayal so of course Wynne does also.

Wynne isn't a general and she doesn't know warfare, so she shouldn't presume to know what constitutes betrayal and what constitutes tactical retreat.

Aveline is at best just an experienced soldier, but she can't capably give out commands in the field as a tactician -- hell, she's not even suited to be a Guard-Captain for Kirkwall because she fails so badly at it, along with Meredith and the Templars.

Is it understandable to view it as such? Sure. Doesn't mean she was right, or that she should've blabbed about how "Loghain's EVIL!!!!!" to the entire Mage community.

Thankfully, Wynne will admit that she was wrong to Loghain eventually. And in the Circle, she'll say she regrets talking about it knowing what happened afterwards.

Now that I think about it, Im wondering if Loghain tried to contact the circle again after the demon threat was over. Then again it was the warden who solved the situation, not him so I dont know if they had helped him in any way.

Doubtful that he did. He probably received some missive by them saying "We know of Ostagar" or heard about the RoA coming down on the Mages and wrote them off as being not on his side at best and not alive at worst.

There is a basket full of apples. One of the apples has become rotten. You throw the rotten one away. Later there is another rotten apple. (I dont remember if there was one or several rotten apples after the first one)

Is it better to just throw the rotten one(s) away OR do you try to find out if there is something in the basket itself that makes the apples rot?

Apples and Elves .

Seriously though, it's a different thing that I don't think applies here. Anora knows what's causing the Elves to riot: starvation brought on by the massive decrease in fertile Fereldan farmland. The cause of the apples rotting could be due to any number of things.

The problem is however that you can't easily solve that issue she's dealing with. And given how Anora is the daughter of Loghain -- someone who collaborated with slavers -- and has always had a rich life, her promises wouldn't be taken seriously by them, I think.

Anora has more experience with dealing with the nobility then she does the populus, because ultimately the two groups behave differently.

And if the Elves are turning violent, then she's left with even less options on how to deal with them, if she's ruling alone. If Alistair's ruling with her, she and he both go out into the countryside and earn large amounts of approval from the populus. Alistair might help her be a better person that can interact with the populus, while she'll help him be a better person in matters of politics. 

But there are a lot of questions I'd ask about this basket of apples:

1) Did I just stumble upon a full basket?
2) If so, how long has it been sitting out in the open?
3) Did I just pick them off the tree?
4) If so, how long have they been at the point of being prime for the picking?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 décembre 2012 - 07:34 .

[TEWR]

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Which would have been a nice thing to investigate and address rather than just arbitrarily cracking down and causing even more tension than there already was. Elves live with scarce conditions every day, so I don't think it's  the shortage of food itself so much as the disproportionate shortage for elves compared to humans. [/quote]

Note that again, we don't know the circumstances of the riot. Sure, they might not have gotten food because of humans being pricks. That's always a possibility. But that's only if that was the case. And if so, you don't know that Anora didn't try to resolve it peacefully. All you know is that she had to crack down on the violent Elves in the end.

But given how Ferelden's farmland was destroyed almost entirely, I'm going with Occam's Razor: Food supplies were in the crapper.

And it's not "arbitrarily cracking down". That's Harrowmont and the Casteless. 

[quote]
Yeah, the people of Amaranthine were ready to attack the Warden-Commander, but they also back down if you use diplomacy to convince them that you intend to address their concerns and/or actually do something about it. Then the reason they took up arms in the first place was removed and they went home happy.[/quote]

Sure, you can be diplomatic. But that only works because they're willing to listen to the Warden-Commander. Do you honestly think that the Elves would pay heed to the words of Anora Mac Tir, the daughter of Loghain Mac Tir, man who authorized them to be sold into slavery? The woman that's lived a rich life her entire life? The woman who, in their view, didn't do anything about the slavery until it was politically convenient for her?

Even though she was unaware of it going on, THEY wouldn't know that.

Diplomacy only works if people will actually listen to it and respond to it. Because of the slavery thing and Anora's life as a high noble's daughter/Queen of Ferelden, I very much doubt Anora would be successful at convincing anyone to give her time to investigate.




[quote]Notice that elves only go up in arms when a situation becomes unbearable, or when unequal treatment between humans and elves becomes too painful to ignore. But they also back down when they feel like their concerns are addressed, and/or treatment between humans and elves are more fair than they were before.[/quote]

Yeah... there's never been an incident in-game where Elves backed down peacefully because their concerns were addressed. 

There have been two riots in Ferelden. The first was during Arl Howe's tenure in Denerim. That one was justified, because... well Howe's an ****. And they fought.

The second was when Anora was Queen by herself and that was due to starvation, but the circumstances of it we don't know. However, Anora is not someone who's going to go "I have no time for this. Kill the Elves, especially if they get violent". That's trying to impose Howe on Anora, which is maddening.

Given how the Elves have always come by food well enough in the past -- hell, you see Elves carrying food and selling it in the opening of the CE origin -- I see no reason to try and lay this at the feet of "those damn humans".

And this is coming from the person who believes that Orlais/the Chantry conspired in some grand scheme to take down the Dales.

[quote]No, but she can make sure that what little food there is available is more evenly distributed between elves and humans, and/or open the lines of communication between the throne and the leaders of the elven community (Hahren, Bann) to show that humans really aren't getting more food than elves, so sit tight until the crops grow again.[/quote]

First, that thing about even distribution could still be seen as catering to a mob. To the second, that would be the appropriate response, as it shows strong leadership.

And what if she did that? What if the Hahren/Bann of the Alienage tried to persuade the Alienage to be patient, but malcontents in the Alienage riled up a lot of them and Anora was forced to pick the lesser of two evils?

And you do see some malcontents. The first time you enter the Alienage, three Elves are beating up a human just because he wanted to cut through the Alienage to get somewhere because it was faster that way

The two evils being:

1) Do nothing about rioting Elves, wherein they'll proceed to be violent against the city resulting in the deaths of Elves and Humans -- possibly having Humans rioting against the rioting Elves, causing rampant chaos.

2) Quell the rioting Elves by force, as diplomacy and negotiation have been tried and failed. The loss of Elves being something she wouldn't want to have gone for, but if it saves more lives in the long run on both sides then it's the right call under those circumstances. 


[quote]Anora is also the one who draws attention to the suspicious activity going on with the alienage if the Warden talks to her, which can go a long way in gaining their approval if she lets them know, as they like any human who is on their side.[/quote]

Unless they begin to wonder why she investigated it when it was politically convenient for her, instead of stopping it before it began.

Elves distrust Humans. Humans distrust Elves. It's sad, but repairing the rift is not going to be as easy as you think it is.


[quote]She can also ease restrictions on the alienage and grant a bann of the alienage, which can also contribute to gaining their esteem.[/quote]

Which she does. She does ease their restrictions. And we can infer that through that, the Hahren was named Bann.


[quote]The city elves are poor, desperate people who will take whatever they can get. In their day-to-day lives, they'll take any dirt-pay job they can just to feed their families, and they'll trust any human they think is trying to help them. [/quote]

IIRC, some Elves were getting pissed off at the Chantry priest because she was.... a Chantry priest who was overseeing their marriage and trying to get the Elves to not do anything that might result in bloodshed -- bloodshed to the Elves, the nobility, etc.


[quote]Vaughan, Urien, Howe, Loghain, and Anora just throw their weight around the alienage, ignore elves when they cry fowl, crush them when they try to make humans listen, then scoff and roll their eyes when elves get sour with them, then keep throwing their weight around like before.[/quote]

Vaughn, yes.

Urien, no. We don't know what his stance on the Elves was.

Howe, yes. But he's in another category entirely. He deserves that special place of Evil.

Loghain, no. Loghain actually admires the Elves. He admires the Elves' ability to be great bowmen, recruited them into his army during The Stolen Throne, and did not "scoff, roll his eyes, and crush them". He did not purge the Alienage.

Gaider has gone on record to say that Howe did many things without Loghain's knowledge or even approval while Loghain was out in the field. The purge of the Alienage was entirely Howe. The only thing Loghain can be held accountable for is the slavery, which was only necessary as a last recourse. Had the Circle allied with him, he could've petitioned them to make enchanted goods which he could sell to other people -- like the Free Marches, whom he is not against taking support from. Only Orlais.

Is it still horrible that he signed off on it? Absolutely. Is it still a crime? Yeah. But given the other factors at play here -- Howe, Wynne trashing Loghain's alliance with the Circle, etc. -- it's mitigated, if only slightly depending on who you ask.

As for Anora, you're taking what you do know -- the end result -- and saying that she doesn't care one ounce about the Elves because she's just some callous **** throwing her weight around. I believe the term for that is.... "putting the cart before the horse."



[quote]If they actually listened to elves' concerns when they cry fowl, they'd never have to rebel or riot and everyone would be happy.[/quote]

That's foolish. Life and politics are not so happily idealistic. It's not some romantic concept of "Just hold hands and be friends!"


[quote]Based on what she has done for them already, it would be so easy for Anora to garner good relations with elves if she set her mind to it, and yet, by all accounts, she doesn't even bother.[/quote]

"Yet, by all accounts, she doesn't even bother".

When I repeat, we don't know the circumstances of the riot. You're assuredly putting the cart before the horse. You're taking the lack of evidence as the evidence of it being completely absent. You think that because you don't know she did the proper course of action upon hearing of the starving Elves, that she didn't do it at all.

[quote]
And yet, as far as I know, the elven food riots and crackdown of the alienage never occurs if Alistair is put on the throne - even with Anora.[/quote]

Why wouldn't it happen if they're both ruling? Alistair has potentially more sway with the Elves. He's a former Warden and Duncan often visited the Alienage and was a friend. He's lived a crappy life himself, so he can relate to the Elves -- if not completely, but he's closer to their level.

Just because you don't hear about it happening doesn't mean it never did. Given that Ferelden's farmland was almost destroyed entirely and that's a common thing on ALL playthroughs, I'd say it did happen. And he handled it without bloodshed.

He was just able to get the Elves to listen to him. 


[quote]I seriously doubt there is no Blight-induced food shortage just because Alistair is king - unless he decides that Fereldan should put more effort into helping the crops grow (kind of like how the Warden-Commander can decide to put more resources into protecting crops while ruling Amaranthine) in which case the food shortage really is Anora's fault.[/quote]

It's good that you doubt the idea there isn't a Blight-induced food shortage, because I never claimed that there wasn't. In fact, I've repeatedly said there is a Blight-induced food shortage.

And yes, the WC can protect the farmland. But that doesn't save it entirely. It's still getting destroyed. All he does is manage to save more of it then otherwise would've been had some other option been chosen. And even then, Amaranthine is still only barely skating by, but food riots are occurring.

And no, Anora would be doing her best to protect the farmland as much as she can -- with their army weakened, it'd be tough to do on a national scale. If she wasn't, then the humans would be rioting as well.


[quote

Bolded. He signed off on it. He was responsible for it. He could have stopped it. He chose not to. It's his fault. That's the thing about leadership: you take blame when things go wrong, not just credit when things go right. [/quote]

Fair point. It was wrong of me to say he's not at fault, more so given that I've said I do blame him for that in the past. He's not completely at fault however.

[quote]

When did the game or writers ever say that Loghain planned on using the Circle to sell enchanted goods to pay for war?[/quote]

Nowhere. But it's common sense. He wants the Mages to help his war effort against the Darkspawn. The Lucrosians exist to garner money for the Circle. The Tranquil/Formari crank out enchanted goods. War costs money.

Ipso facto: He would be using them to raise money for the war.

[quote]
Even if that was so, I don't buy that the only way to afford his civil war was through either enchanted goods or slaves, and nothing else. Was there truly nothing else he could have done? No other course of action? No other decisions or alternatives? [/quote]

No, there wasn't. War -- especially civil wars -- are not the best way to promote trade from internal channels. Think of the Circle as being external. It's its own little speck on the map of Ferelden.

If he had the Circle on his side, he would've and could've asked them to churn out enchanted goods and trade them to foreign nations -- the Free Marches, Nevarra, etc. -- and send Loghain the money, through which he could fund the war effort.

It would work even better had there been no civil war, but meh... it'd still work with the Civil War, albeit slightly tougher.

Actually, he could've promoted trade with Orzammar if the Circle was allied with him, more so if Bhelen was on the throne. 

[quote]He couldn't have taken the many guards he posted away from the borders to fight?[/quote]

Costs money. They have to have food, which costs money. They need a way to get to where the fighting is, which costs money. 

[quote]He couldn't have let the Wardens come in just long enough to fight the Blight and then boot them out afterward?[/quote]

Orlais has a history mired in conjunction with the Wardens of using the Blights as a pretense to "aid" a nation when it's so physically weakened that it can't sustain itself, and then they never leave until they're booted out by force.

Which costs lives, land, and money.

And from what he knew at Ostagar -- and the events in the Calling, plus what was known to the general populus about Sophia Dryden -- he couldn't trust the Wardens at all. From what he knew, they seemed to be Orlesian agents. Hence why he said they were responsible for the king's death. 

It was wrong, of course, but from what he had to go off of -- history and recent events -- it was an understandable position to take.


[quote]He couldn't have sent out a draft in reigions under his and Howe's control?[/quote]

Costs money and resources to outfit soldiers. 


[quote]He couldn't have recruited elves to help in the armies (even just as laborers to take some strain off the backs of his men.)[/quote]

Costs money to pay them. Costs money to outfit them.

It's not like during the Orlesian occupation, where it was a rebellion against tyrants. That was fighting for independence, with the members knowing that the Rebel Army didn't have the resources to go along with having soldiers -- money and supplies, for instance. But they fought anyway, because they were fighting for an ideal. 

Though I personally think Loghain should've done the Night Elves once more, but as I said that costs money.


[quote]He couldn't have stepped down from the regency so the nobles would no longer feel the need to rebel?[/quote]

The thing about deaths of kings with no immediate successor is that it creates a power vacuum. People like Howe would fight for the throne. 

Even if he had relented -- though the Bannorn was gearing up for war which leads me to believe they struck the actual first blow, and I've said before that I doubt if he had relented they would've just gone "LOL thanks man!" -- there would still be people like Howe.

Howe is in the greater control of the Coastlands, and he would probably try and launch a Civil War anyway because he desires power. Other people like him would probably ally with him.

So basically, civil war was inevitable after Loghain had to retreat.

And why don't you blame Teagan for instigating a Civil War during a Blight?He's the one who riled up the nobility with the "Your withdrawal was most.... fortuitous" schtick. He's the one that caused the Bannorn to gear up. 

For Christ's sake, matters of politics are best handled when you don't have a damn invasion that destroys the land on your doorstep going "OH HAI!!". If he's going to take issue with Loghain in the Regency, it's best to do that when the Darkspawn are dealt with and the realm is safe.

Never mind that thinking you can defeat a general whose strategies freed Ferelden seems a bit... foolish.

[quote]He couldn't have let his daughter use her well-established competency and popularity among the nobles to do the talking for him, instead of reducing her to a puppet ruler to maintain his own regency and let Howe (the most detested thing in the Bannorn) run the asylum? [/quote]

Well, I have stated in the past that his going to Howe of all people is at best rather absurd, given how Loghain knows Anora's the real brains behind the throne. I can't really say why he did that. Only thing that comes to mind is Howe wormed his way into Loghain's mind and played the douchenozzle part, making Loghain think that he was better equipped to handle the political decisions.

[quote]TEWR wrote...

Although I guess to an extent, maybe Howe made Loghain think that Anora would be one of the following:
1) too rattled by Cailan's death to truly be in a state of mind to help2) too conflicted over the implications about Cailan's death.[/quote]

Both of which are sort of talked about by Anora. She's very distraught over Cailan's death and even asks her father if he killed Cailan. When he tells the truth of the matter -- that it was his own doing -- she leaves the room angrily.

So... I wouldn't be surprised if Howe told Loghain both of those things, and then in that scene Loghain felt it was true. More then he wanted to believe.

Or Loghain just didn't want to ****** off the man who now controls enough of the Coastlands to launch a third front against Loghain.

[quote]

And yet even in times of prosperity for humans, most elves barely have enough money or food to get by. In times of scarcity for humans, do you think they would suddenly start sharing more with elves? If most humans don't have enough to have seconds, then how much do you think the elves have? I think inequality of distribution of food between humans and elves lies in the heart of the matter, so that should have been at least been addressed.[/quote]

But you don't know it wasn't addressed. All you know is what happened at the end -- the quelling of riots -- but you don't know the chain of events leading up to it, aside from starvation being one of the main factors. I'm basing what I think happened around Anora's character, whereas you're just going "Human scum" a la Demona.



[quote]This resulted in being slaughtered by the next arl, when all he had to do was ask why they rebelled, express sympathy for the injustice committed against them, and say that the person responsible (Vaughan) was dead (because of the Warden) or executed (as he locks Vaughan in his dungeon if he isn't killed by the CE Warden), and they could have gone home happy. But nope; he had to butcher them just because he could.[/quote]

That's because Howe's a power-hungry tyrant who feels he deserves more and wouldn't care about betraying his closest friends. He views Elves as beasts and anyone who's in his way -- of any race -- as just being steps on the ladder to his "deserved power".

If Nathaniel Howe had been the Arl, he'd have made efforts to help the Elves.


[quote]Since elves are shown to be remarkably complacant when they feel their concerns are finally addressed[/quote]

We don't see an incident in-game where their concerns are addressed by the nobility and they happen to be like "Thanks man!"


[quote]I don't think Anora even bothered putting in the effort.[/quote]

To be fair, Cailan was the one doing the interactions with the populus. Anora was simply the one controlling the aspects of governing -- which is a time consuming job that leaves little time for other things.

Cailan would've been the one to meet with the Elves, because he was always out in the city. Anora was keeping the nobility from being a bunch of dumbasses.

[quote]
Oh yeah, and there was nothing else he could have done with the situation. It was either magic or slavery, nothing [/quote]

That's right, there was nothing else that could be done. War costs money. Civil wars drain a nation's coffers faster, I would think, because you've got multiple sides in the same nation expending money to kill their neighbors.

[quote]

I've already said. Elves live with scarce resources every day[/quote]

They have food and water, as the intro to the CE origin shows us. 

They live in ****ty homes, wear ****ty clothes, and have ****ty jobs, but they've got food. You don't hear about any starvation happening to Ferelden's Alienage Elves before the Blight came along.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2013 - 05:13 .

[Corker]

I'm okay with Anora's response to the elven riot.

She's not perfect. She's a noblewoman of her time and place, and that comes with certain ideas about elves. From our time and place, we can see that they're wrong. I don't think that makes her a hideous evil devil-witch. It makes her a flawed person with a cultural blind spot.

Moreover, fixing that blind spot would require her to be written as almost impossibly enlightened and forward-thinking for her time and place, which would jar. Once prejudice against elves has been established as common, making a point of her not having it would stick out as obvious pandering: Look how nice she is! Look how much better than everyone else!

Unfortunately, people don't generally work that way. It puts me very much in mind of the US Founding Fathers on slavery. I can admire the admirable things they did, while abhorring the abhorrent things they did, and try to neither idolize nor demonize them.

[Jedimaster88]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Apples and Elves .

But there are a lot of questions I'd ask about this basket of apples:

1) Did I just stumble upon a full basket?
2) If so, how long has it been sitting out in the open?
3) Did I just pick them off the tree?
4) If so, how long have they been at the point of being prime for the picking?

:DYeah I know its not the perfect example but after reading some of the earlier posts I couldnt help but to think of it.

As for the other questions, sorry I dont have answers. The book didnt give any details. The whole apple thing was a metaphor for a totally different subject that I no longer remember. It was about five years ago when I read the book.

[sylvanaerie]

Alienage purges happen all the time. Anora isn't the first ruler who had it happen on their 'watch'. One reason I think pairing her with Alistair is it seems to be a better balance for the country. I just can't bring myself to do it. If Anora is queen, Alistair stays a grey warden in my games, or I marry her to my boy Cousland. If Alistair is king, he either marries my lady Cousland or rules alone (with my warden helping him as Chancellor).

I would imagine The Ethereal Writer Redux is overstating the devastation of the Blight on the countryside in saying the farmland was 'almost entirely destroyed'. From events in Awakenings, there's been some impact but not the near total nuclear meltdown of 'almost entirely destroyed'. One of the choices the warden has to make is 'do I protect the farmlands'. I usually chose trade being as I felt it was more important to get what was actually produced or imported moving to those who needed it.

Also, the Blight was resolved in a year's time. Most people outside Ferelden didn't even know there was a Blight till it was done (and some don't believe it even several years later). So I doubt even darkspawn could 'almost entirely destroy' all the farmable land in Ferelden.

However Ferelden did have problems afterward caused by the blight and most likely a large part of it was starvation, disease and death caused by the blighted countryside. I am certain Anora did all she could to alleviate it as much as possible. We aren't given any particulars in the slide, only that they revolted and it was put down violently. While I don't think Anora bothered herself too much over their fate, I am also certain she didn't sit on her ass eating cake while the elves starved. War is war, it's ugly, brutal and, in the case of a blight, has a particularly nasty aftereffect. She's a capable administrator and is ruthless enough to make the tough choices, perhaps there simply wasn't enough to go around to everyone despite the best planning. She's not Jesus who can feed a multitude on a loaf and a couple of fish, she's only human. I get the feeling Bioware threw in that card just to make Alistair look better as a ruler in that light.

Also, remember, the devs have said the ending slides should be taken as 'rumors of what might have happened (speculation) after the events in Origins'. Or did you really believe Anders remained with the Grey Wardens, and Cullen went batsh*t insane slaughtering apprentices and running off screaming into the night?

[Jedimaster88]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

"And why don't you blame Teagan for instigating a Civil War during a Blight?He's the one who riled up the nobility with the "Your withdrawal was most.... fortuitous" schtick. He's the one that caused the Bannorn to gear up."


Do we know fully what Loghain told about Ostagar to the nobility?

"Everything I have done has been to secure Ferelden´s independence. I have not shirked my duty to the throne and neither will any of you." Loghain doesnt give the truth that he couldnt save Cailan. Instead he offers this which kind of gives the image that he is hiding something. Teagan propably took it as a threat.

Also:

Warden: You dont believe Loghain´s lies?
Teagan: What, that he pulled his men in order to save them? That Cailan risked everything in the name of glory? Hardly. Loghain calls the grey wardens traitors, murderers of the king. I dont believe it, it is an act of a desperate man.


Also if you mention Ostagar at the landsmeet, that one guy says that some of them are curious about what really happened there.


Loghain did something wrong when told about Ostagar. Either some people just wont accept the truth OR Loghain did a horrible job at telling about the battle.

[Corker]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Warden: You dont believe Loghain´s lies?
Teagan: What, that he pulled his men in order to save them? That Cailan risked everything in the name of glory? Hardly. Loghain calls the grey wardens traitors, murderers of the king. I dont believe it, it is an act of a desperate man.

I always liked this bit.  Because Cailan did risk everything in the name of glory, and we know that.  It really drives home the uncertainty of people's beliefs - although Teagan was rarely at court and probably didn't know his nephew all that well, he knows Cailan would never do that!  Somebody else knows Loghain is the Hero of River Dane and would never do anything to harm king or country. 

There are times when the 'unreliable narrator' principle makes me want to tear my hair out (this is not the real world, it is a fantasy world and I rely on your NPCs to understand how it works!) but there are times when it works just fine.  People's reactions to the events of Ostagar is one of the times I think it works.

[TEWR]

Also, the Blight was resolved in a year's time. Most people outside Ferelden didn't even know there was a Blight till it was done (and some don't believe it even several years later). So I doubt even darkspawn could 'almost entirely destroy' all the farmable land in Ferelden.

By the final stretch of the game, you can see how far the Blight spread. It took up the majority of the Bannorn and the Bannorn consists of primarily -- if not entirely -- farmland.

Do we know fully what Loghain told about Ostagar to the nobility?

Based on Teagan's comments, he told them the truth coupled with what he believed to be the truth.

The "what Loghain believed to be the truth" is obviously the Wardens being traitors and murderers of the king. It's false, but based on what he had to go off recently and historically it seemed to be true.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Either some people just wont accept the truth OR Loghain did a horrible job at telling about the battle.

Some of both, I think.

[Wulfram]

Anora probably didn't have a huge amount of choice but to crack down, by that point.

But she lacks Alistair's vision to build up a good working relationship and trust with the community in the alienage, that would allow situations like this to be handled without ending up in violence. I doubt the Elves under Alistair actually have that much more food, but they know that their complaints will be heard, and that some real effort will be made on their behalf.

She does clearly have a lack of awareness of the situation in the alienage - hence her boasting about how she's been the awesomest Queen ever to a City Elf whose experience of her rule has not exactly been positive.

[TEWR]

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

However, I maintain that I have noticed that the elves tend to be more brutally treated under Mac Tir rule than under Theirin rule.[/quote]

Sure, maybe. I wouldn't say we know exactly how Maric's reign was regarding the Elves, and we never really hear much bad things happening during Cailan's rule -- save for what happened with Adaia, circumstances unknown.



[quote]Under Loghain, they are purged violently and sold into slavery. (The former out of negligence and the latter out of free will.) Make excuses for him all you want, it's what happened. Under Anora, they're brutally cracked down. I'm not a fan.[/quote]

Under Anora, they rioted violently. Circumstances leading up to it being unknown, violent riots rarely help matters. It just creates more tension.

Peaceful protests, while not having the best chance of success, have a much better success rate then violent riots. Violently rioting will just lead to one outcome in most cases: death.

If it doesn't, it's due to some rare factor -- the Warden being able to peacefully dispel the riot of starving commoners being one such thing, and only because they listen to what he has to say because he's either a war hero or a representative of the Order that saved the nation.

As a war hero, his word can be trusted -- and if he was an Elf dealing with Elves, then more so. As an Orlesian, he's still a Warden. There's going to be some distrust still -- you see it during the fealty ceremony a little bit -- but he's also representing the Wardens. 

[quote]You keep lecturing me about how I don't know for sure how Anora dealt with the situation, but you don't know how the elves dealt with the situation either. If you're allowed to give Anora the benefit of the doubt, then I can do the same for the elves.[/quote]

Except I'm not claiming that they're not going to trust her, as opposed to earlier when you were claiming Anora just arbitrarily cracked down on them. Just that I see it as unlikely they would trust her, even if she tried to get them too, based on how they would more then likely view it. 

They would more then likely see her as a human woman who only got involved when things were politically convenient for her, but did nothing as it was going on earlier -- made worse by her status as Loghain Mac Tir's daughter.


[quote]I agree though that all we can do is speculate. We can argue all year until our fingers turn red and bloody over whether the elves hold Anora's relation to Loghain or her wealthy upbringing against her - though I personally think her being born a commoner would win some brownie points since it would give them hope that she can help non-nobles like them rise above their station too - but we just don't know.

Though to be honest, I have never seen or heard any elf comment on Loghain, Anora, or the slavery situation ever, so I don't know if there is even any in-game evidence to support your claims of their contempt for Anora. Alternate-character interpretation, I guess.[/quote]

Pretty much. It's all speculation. Now, there is some way to go both sides. Anora does have an Elven friend/confidant, so some Elves in the Alienage might like that -- plus her being born a commoner originally, as you said. Though remember, she's lived a rich life more then a common life -- and some Elves may indeed view the slavery tackling as her being good for them.

Others may argue that she only got involved when it was convenient for her, bring up her relation to Loghain, and say she's lived a rich life.

Who would have more pull? I dunno. I'm somewhat of a cynic, so I'd think that there'd be more Elves bringing up the negative viewpoints on Anora and swaying others to that perspective then there'd be Elves bringing up positive viewpoints.


[quote]I said the elves welcomed the human healers with open arms, despite the mass kidnapping and possible gang-rape committed by Bann Vaughan and the several months long purge committed by Arl Howe, and despite having every reason not to trust humans, because they were sick and thought they were finally getting the medical help they needed after going through a purge and a plague.[/quote]

That's not backing down because their concerns were addressed though.

That's just being peaceful because they thought they were getting help, as the riots had already been put down. Backing down would be if they were getting pretty testy and then when some people came to help address the concerns, they said "Alright, thanks. We're good now."



[quote]Shianni is the only one who openly reviles them, but the other elves tell her to be quiet because the humans are finally helping them out, so stop ruining it for everyone. (Ironically, the city elf with the most outspoke "damned humans" attitude that you accuse me of having ends up being on the mark.)[/quote]

I think, to an extent, both sides were right. There was obviously no Blight disease, but there was sickness. I think the Healers were actually healing the sick people and sending them back out, but were keeping the healthy ones. Slavers can't take people that are liable to die on the journey due to being sick when taken.


[quote]Apart from that though, it's true that there's never been an incident in-game where elves backed down peacefully, but then humans have never offered to address their concerns either. Elves riot because of Vaughan? Howe purges them, etc.[/quote]

Like I said, Howe's his own brand of evil. It's not really fair to use him as an example of humans everywhere not addressing concerns of the Elves.

He doesn't address the concerns of anyone he views as lessers in his mind.


[quote]The first time I enter the Alienage? My characters were born and bred in the Alienage. [/quote]

Well, the first time a non-CE enters the Alienage .


[quote]To be fair though, the alienage was just locked down for several months for a brutal purge, wherein human guards slaughtered elven civilians (I don't think purges involves spring cleaning), and the guy thinks he can just waltz in and none of the elves are going to be angry to see another human in their territory after the butchery they just endured? I tell his ass off every time I see him.[/quote]

I don't think it's really justified to tell him off, assault him, or anything. Being angry at his presence? Sure, that's fine. But don't make that known to anyone except other Elves.

And by the love of the Paragons, don't ****ing try and beat him/kill him. That's just the whole violence begets violence thing. If they had killed him, his family might've sought retribution. The Elves might've refused to go for the crime, leading to eventually... another riot. Possibly one worse then the one Howe did -- and that one tore the ****ing Veil.



[quote]I wouldn't go that far. Unless the epilogue specifically states that Anora named so-and-so the new Bann of the Denerim Alienage, I don't think it happened.[/quote]

That's fine. I just said we can infer it. Whether she actually did it or not, I don't know. But I'd like to think she did.


[quote]Anora doesn't even grant the Hahren a seat at the Landsmeet; Alistair does. Plus, both Anora and Alistair only name a city elf the Bann of the Denerim Alienage if the CE Warden specifically asks for it, or dies defeating the Archdemon, so I don't think she'd do it of her own volition.[/quote]

But with her naming it after the Warden died, that is her doing it of her own volition. Unless the CE is somehow haunting her, she's making the choice.



[quote]Also, while there is no concrete evidence either way, I think her easing alienage restrictions loosens your theory that the elves detest her. (Sorry to keep skipping tons of sections, but it just seems redundant to keep saying "I don't know if this happened, because we don't know if that happened" to every "What if she/they did this" scenario you keep throwing at me.)[/quote]

I wouldn't say that. Of course, it really depends on just what restrictions she eased up on. But I don't think the Elves would've been going "Oh thank the Maker! She's on our side!"

Like I said, I'm a bit of a cynic.

[quote]
To be fair, they were drunk off their asses. It's pretty well implied in the opening narration and conversation with various NPC's that just about everyone's been cracking into the kegs long before the wedding ceremony starts. When Duncan first enters the Alienage, Soris wants to ask him to leave because, "Wine is flowing, and I'm more worried about some of our boys." Then Vaughan shows up and kidnaps the women in broad daylight, everyone is tense and unhappy, few elves feel very fond of humans at the moment, a single unarmed human woman happens to be in sight, drunkenness lowers impulse control, and you have a recipe for unfortunate behavior. [/quote]

Fair enough.

[quote]Plus, if these are the same drunken elves you encounter when you first leave Cyrion's House, then they're not exactly model citizens of any community. It's not exactly fair to hold the actions of a few drunken idiots against the entire alienage.[/quote]

Assuming they are the same Elves -- only did the CE origin twice, once for each gender. -- then yes it is unfair to hold all Elves accountable. That holds true for many things -- Mages, Templars, Humans, etc.


[quote]Hell, I think the Hahren and a few nice elves are the ones who escort her out of the alienage for her own safety, so it's not like all the elves are just blind human haters.[/quote]

And not all humans are blind Elf haters either. IIRC, wasn't it mentioned that the Cousland family was generally very nice to their Alienage Elves?



[quote]He raised Vaughan and let him run wild in the Alienage. I think that's pretty damning evidence.[/quote]

You can lovingly raise a person to care for their people, but it won't always stick. By the CE origin, Urien was off fighting the Darkspawn -- and he died there, too.

So it's less that he let Vaughan run amok, but that Vaughan was legally the one in charge.

It's not really damning evidence. It doesn't cast him in a particularly favorable light, I'l grant, but it's not like he's just as bad as Vaughan.


[quote]Yep, he admires them enough to sell them into slavery to fund his army. He admires their ability to be great bowmen enough not to recruit them into his army during his civil war (which I keep saying he can end at any time but chooses not to, so I hold every death and slave sale at his feet as much as anyone else).[/quote]

But would he have had to do the slavery thing if the Circle was allied with him? If the Bannorn hadn't been pressing him to step down at the worst possible time?

I don't see why he should step down in a time of Blight when the Bannorn are playing the part of fools. They're the ones threatening Civil War with the Darkspawn at their heels. They're the ones gearing up for battle against their own people.

Loghain's fault following Ostagar's failure is that he addressed the Bannorn in the wrong way, but they made their choices by deciding to fight a war against each other -- depleting the coffers, sacrificing men, etc.

Had Loghain yielded to them, I doubt very much they would've just let him go. They would've believed he killed the king himself, tried him for High Treason, and at best imprisoned him -- stripping away his title, possibly having some backlash against Anora happen as well -- and at worst would've sent him to the hangman's noose. And then his supporters might've waged war regardless.

And without Loghain, they might've been destroyed, thus destroying even more of the army.

This isn't some romantic idea of "If he surrenders, things will be peachy". A lot of people actually get so pissed off at the Warden for recruiting him into the Wardens -- as you can hear from bartenders. Just the same, a lot of people are glad he's alive -- another thing you can hear from bartenders -- and that in turn boosts morale.

Without the Wardens to say "Wait", Loghain would've been killed had he surrendered during the course of the game.

Loghain never wanted a Civil War. He never struck the first blow, though he addressed the Bannorn in the worst way -- but then, he's not a politician. And he is not an idealist, as Anora tells us. He's a realist.

Regarding the slavery, from a military standpoint, he felt that they were screwed anyway since the Alienage was structurally unable to survive a Darkspawn attack.

That's certainly how he felt about it should the Darkspawn attack Denerim. That the Warden can save it is by luck, not by any actual militaristic truth.

From an economic standpoint, it was his only option and I fervently believe it was Howe's idea. Howe shows utter contempt for the Elves. If Loghain had the Circle on his side -- and not been so manipulated by Howe, and possibly having grown weary with the toll current events are taking upon his mind -- he would've shot that down. He might've even recruited them into the army.

Incoming headcanon: I'd like to think that he'd try and get the Elves sold into slavery back by having Fereldan spies going to Tevinter. 



[quote]

Also, I'm going to point out that David Gaider did not write Loghain's character, nor did he write the Landsmeet. Mary Kirby did. Even when he talks about Loghain, David Gaider usually says his interpretation of Loghain is this or that. It could be that his interpretation is different from what Mary Kirby thinks and what Loghain is really thinking or doing. Sure, Gaider is the head writer, but he can't be responsible for every character, every quest, every area, and every goings-on.[/quote]

I would think if what he's saying about Loghain is so different then what Mary Kirby envisioned, she would've said so.


[quote]Also, David Gaider has a habit of retroactively rewriting various characters. Maric cheating on his wife to create a bastard is such an intregal part of Alistair's background and self-image that it's impossible to escape through the game, then The Stolen Throne/The Calling comes around and suddenly he only slept with someone years after she died?[/quote]

Well, isn't that assuming that Fiona is Alistair's mother? It's never really confirmed that was the case, and Goldanna seems to back up how Alistair's mother was a serving woman. DG has said that Alistair is the only known bastard of Maric's. The key word there is "known", as it says that there are a few others out there.


[quote]Uh-huh. Loghain sells elves into slavery in the game, but then The Stolen Throne comes around and suddenly he admires them so much that he becomes a champion for their rights during the Rebellion, despite never lifting a finger to help them since and selling them into slavery once he's taken the helm? Uh-huh.[/quote]

If you play as an Elf, he'll tell you of his admiration for the Elves. He'll even tell a City Elf "Don't let anyone ever tell you that you don't belong. First Warden Maric brought was a woman and she was the finest warrior I've ever seen"

He'll tell a Dalish Elf that he's never seen an equal with a bow like the Dalish are before meeting the one Maric knew or since then.

You're focusing so much on the slavery thing -- which is a crime, don't get me wrong -- that you're also choosing to see him as some monstrously wicked bastard who doesn't give a damn about anyone.

Fact: What is necessary isn't always morally acceptable, and Loghain acknowledges this.

Fact: Loghain implies that he's burdened by a lot of the things he's done -- a few times, actually -- and that he has his own ways of coping with it, as opposed to drinking or praying like other generals he's known did.

Fact: He still admires the Elves, even if he had to do something morally repugnant -- but not without valid reasons, as opposed to a "**** the Elves" mentality -- to the Elven community of Denerim.


[quote]Has Gaider specifically said what Howe did without Loghain's knowledge or approval? Has Gaider specifically said that Howe led the purge without Loghain's knowledge or approval? Has Gaider said that Loghain tried to stop it or help it? Until he does, I'm not giving Loghain a pass on this one. [/quote]

Specifically? No. But I think it's pretty evident that Howe would've done that on his own without Loghain's knowledge, as you do hear in-game that Loghain was out in the field a lot dealing with the Civil War.

[quote] And don't tell me "civil war" like it's an excuse, because I still say he could have been the bigger man and ended the war, but he chose not to, so his actions are on him)[/quote]

Except that premise operates off of a romantic mindset where his surrender wouldn't have resulted in **** happening -- his execution/imprisonment, a civil war still going on anyway, etc.

If the Bannorn against Loghain were so foolish to wage war during a Blight, I doubt they'd be smart enough to actually let Loghain keep his titles, land, and life so as to avoid a continued one.

They weren't politely asking him to step down. They were demanding it, under threat of Civil War.


[quote]
I still say it's hideously hypocritical of him to go into such a passionate rant about being a victim of brutal occupation, but being willing to sell other people into slavery. I also find it sickening that he is willing to sell elves to their historical oppressors (Tevinter) to keep humans from their historical oppressors (Orlais).[/quote]

There are more Alienages in Ferelden then just in Denerim.

He's not selling Elves to save humans. He's selling some Elves to save Humans, Elves, and Dwarves elsewhere in Ferelden.

And even then, he finds it morally repugnant himself, but knows that it's necessary from a military and economic standpoint since the Alienage was militaristically unable to withstand an assault from the Darkspawn -- barring a miracle (the Warden) -- and economically it was his only option.


[quote]
In other words, if you shift the blame onto someone else, Loghain might look better by comparison.[/quote]

Mitigating circumstances exist so as to make a person more understandable and sympathetic in why they did something.

[quote]You make it sound like Wynne deliberately sabotaged his efforts to help the nation out of spite.[/quote]

No, I'm not. I'm not making it sound like that or saying that. But it is her fault that the Circle couldn't financially help Loghain.

Loghain wanted the Circle to be on his side, as they were Ferelden's greatest asset against the Darkspawn. Militarily, that much is obvious. Economically, it's not so obvious but just as necessary. 

She put honor before reason. It's her fault, knowing or not, that Loghain had to resort to authorizing such a drastic thing as slavery. If she had kept her fat yap shut, lives wouldn't have been lost to the Uldred Uprising and Loghain would've had an alternative -- and morally acceptable -- means to raise money.


[quote]She was at the front lines, she saw him retreat, and she saw the destruction he left behind. From where she was standing, she had every right to view him as a traitor and a deserter. Uldred tried to get the Circle to sign on with him, but he conveniently forgot to mention that both he and Loghain deserted at Ostagar. Wynne simply had to drag herself back to explain, "It took me so long to return because I barely escaped with my life because these ****s left everyone in the fortress to die" and that's all they needed to hear.[/quote] 

And she's not a soldier. She doesn't know warfare. She knows how to fight, but she knows jack **** about strategy. 

Unless she's in command of the lives of thousands of soldiers out in the field or has studied warfare, she shouldn't dare to presume what is betrayal and what is a tactical retreat.

She's a Mage living a sheltered lifestyle and she's operating off of an Honor Before Reason mentality. How dare you try and get the Circle to align with the lesser of two evils! The Circle should remain neutral instead of saying "We're only fighting the Darkspawn with you because they're the common enemy, not out of any trust in you!".


[quote](which he did)[/quote]

A tactical retreat is not desertion.

[quote]Plus, if Loghain really was as invested in the Circle as you imply, you would think he would have made more of an effort to get them on his side. Talking to only one mage about forming an alliance, relying on said one mage to convince the entire Circle, then abandoning them at the first sign of trouble and not even trying to pick them up again doesn't imply he was very heavily invested in them.[/quote]

I'm sorry, but for one thing Uldred was a very influential Mage within the Circle. He had been weeding out blood mages to improve his own standing amongst the Mages and Templars and at the same time by doing so he was hiding his own status.

IMO, he was getting Mages to learn blood magic and selling out some of them -- Jowan among them -- to do what the game tells us -- improving his own standing/hiding his own status.

The game supports that he's been teaching other Mages blood magic by the fact that he had a little brigade behind the doors.

Secondly, you're assuming Loghain even heard about the trouble the Circle was dealing with. Considering Gregoir sent word to Denerim for the RoA -- and even then, IIRC he'll state he's not sure if it arrived -- and Loghain was busy dealing with the Bannorn gearing up for war, it wasn't that he didn't want to help them. 

It's that from a realistic military standpoint, he couldn't divert his forces to go aid the Circle without at the same time leaving his own forces weakened to deal with the Bannorn. But if he had heard about the RoA, then there's one valid reason he can think of for what that's happening: Abominations, things that destroy commoners and even seasoned Templars.

Hell, if he had sent forces to deal with it, there's no guarantee they could've gone to Lake Calenhad without falling to an attack from the Bannorn. War is hell, incase you didn't know.

Worse, if he had sent aid to the Circle, the Mages would've been exterminated. Gregoir only accepts it if the First Enchanter's alive. If you think garden variety soldiers with a scarce handful of Templars could take down four to seven Abominations in the Harrowing Chamber -- much less the entire tower full of Abominations, Demons, and Undead -- ranging from Rage to Pride, then that's just foolish. 

Numbers alone would matter little against enemies that can incinerate you in a heartbeat.

Sure, he might get the Templars, but he would've gotten them anyway if he had the Circle on his side. And again, standard variety soldiers aren't going to be much use against Abominations. 

No offense, but you're speaking from a mindset that isn't feasible in terms of military strategy or realistic sense. But of course, Loghain's just a pompous douchebag who abandons people at a whim.



[quote]
Also, I played Awakening. The farmlands were not as badly destroyed as you imply.[/quote]

Look at how far the Blight's spread by the time the Landsmeet is done. On the map you'll see a great blackness encompassing the vast majority of Ferelden.



[quote]Sure, they were damaged and food was more scarce, but budgetting in guards to protect the crops and escort the travelling merchants made it so there was enough food that people weren't starving.[/quote]

People were starving. Those commoners rioting in Awakening? Yeah, they weren't saying "We want more!"...

They were saying "Feed your people! We're starving!".


[quote]
And that's why I think he's a better monarch to the elves. Wanna argue with me about that too?[/quote]

He can get popular support yes, I don't contest that. But he can't get particular support without weakening the crown's authority at the same time. He's not a politician.

With Anora married to Alistair, Ferelden truly prospers. They act as balancing agents to one another. Alistair can get the commoners to be peaceful and love their monarchs while Anora can help control the Bannorn -- and a hardened Alistair will even begin to learn of what is best for the nation from Anora.



[quote]The Bannorn rebelled because they did not want him as their regent. He could have stepped down from the regency and taken away their reason to mobilize against him.[/quote]

See above where I say that realistically, they wouldn't have just let him skate by if he had surrendered. At best, he would've been imprisoned and stripped of his titles for a perceived "High Treason" when many of them weren't there. 

And then Loghain's supporters would've launched a war anyway.

Again, you've got a seriously romanticized outlook on this whole thing, where if he surrenders everything will be peachy.



[quote]Once again, Howe says, "There are demands that you step down from the regency. It looks like there will be civil war after all."[/quote]

Yeah, he also says they're gearing up for war. They were gearing up for war against their own brothers and sisters as opposed to temporarily aligning with Loghain to defeat a Blight.


[quote]Later, Anora tells Loghain, "Shouldn't we be fighting the darkspawn instead of each other?" Loghain answers, "The nobles must be brought to line, and then we'll deal with the darkspawn."[/quote]

They do need to be brought to line. They chose to go to war by gearing up for it and making demands that Loghain step down from the regency -- the regency that Anora herself was content with... and she's the damn Queen of the Nation.

Might not have been the ideal setup, but if Anora was fine with it then they're committing treason themselves.


[quote]

They need money to walk from Point A to Point B?[/quote]

They need to rest at inns don't they? They need to buy supplies at local villages don't they? They might need to buy horses, don't they (and Ferelden does have horses, as the HN and prequel books tell us)?

So yes, they do need money.


[quote]They don't eat up money from sitting along the border for months at a time, eating food?[/quote]

They might have food supplies there, assuming it's something along the lines of a tower.

[quote]

Big deal, the Blight has a history of devastating the planet to the point of near annilation. The taint also severely damages the ecosystems of areas they are in contact with, and some lands (like the Anderfels) are forever barren because of their prolongued exposure to the taint. So, naturally, letting the darkspawn run wild and pollute the farmlands with their taint helps Fereldan in the long run far more than accepting help early on and booting the foreign aid out while the nation is still healthy and prosperous. [/quote]

Except there's one problem with that.

Based on history, recent events, and Ostagar Loghain saw the Wardens as being Orlesian agents intent on weakening Ferelden to the point where it had to rely on Orlais to fight the Blight but also being too weak to fight back itself.

Like history indicated.

That was all the evidence he had pointed to. Everything he's seen, read, or heard has shown the Wardens and Orlais as being too interconnected to be trusted. 

Even now, half of Orlais is giddy at the prospect of repeating what they've done in the past. Conquering a weakened nation.

[quote]

So it's safe to let the darkspawn romp through the country without any opposition for months on end but it's more dangerous and expensive to let in some darkspawn experts to get rid of the darkspawn threat quickly and then escort them out of the country once the threat is over? [/quote]

Assuming of course, your nation isn't weakened to the point of being unable to stand on its own


[quote]So basically, doing anything to alleviate the burden of his troops and his freeholders is too expensive.[/quote]

Not too expensive. Just that it's going to cost money. And a few soldiers here and there aren't going to be able to take on a marching horde. The nation doesn't have a limitless supply of money. And yet the Bannorn thinks it best to launch a civil war during a time of Blight instead of thinking "Well, the Darkspawn are the real threat".

You criticize Loghain for not prioritizing the Darkspawn, yet defend the Bannorn when they fail to do the same thing. 

Smells like... hypocrisy.


[quote]
I seriously doubt that was even canon while the game was being made. Retroactively rewriting characers, remember?[/quote]

Not really. Loghain tells a Dalish Elf that the Elves have the most skill with bows that he's ever seen.

[quote]

During times of crisis, people tend to want to stick with the leader they know rather than taking a chance with a new one. Fereldan faced the threat of darkspawn and they were scared. Anora was an experienced and popular leader who they knew was a competent monarch thanks to her five-year reign with Cailan. She was already their queen since she was married/widowed to their king, so it would be safer and easier for everyone to just stay the course and keep her queen until the threat was over.[/quote]

But she authorized Loghain as her Regent. Loghain declared himself such at first, but she never contested it. Thus, she approved of it.

So they were required by Fereldan law to stick with Loghain, because Anora was fine with him at the helm at first.


[quote]While much of the Bannorn subverted Loghain with their armies, most of them admit that the reason they don't officially unite and vote him off the island with a Landsmeet is because, at the end of the day, they think he's their best chance against the darkspawn.[/quote]

source please, as it's said in-game that many people -- nobles and commoner alike -- are just as pissed that Loghain's alive after the Landsmeet as the people that are glad he's alive.


[quote]If he simply put his money where his mouth was and actually declare Anora queen regnant, step down from the regency and merely be a general of their armies, I think it's a decision they would be willing to live with. Unfortunately, it's not enough for Loghain to be the general of her armies, he has to ALSO be Regent (monarch in all but name) which just looks like a thinly veiled grab for power.[/quote]

Sure, he shouldn't be involved in politics, especially when he's not a politician and is relying on Howe.

But Anora was content with him declaring himself her Regent. She never contests it.

Could just be a Larry Caul-Lilly Caul father/daughter relationship though, but still. She's not saying "Father, you shouldn't be here! You should be just a general!" until later in the game.

[quote] Plus, Howe is an **** whom no one likes or supports.[/quote]

Awakening disproves that by giving us.... well, that conspiracy consisting of nobles that liked Howe.

Howe was mostly ill-loved, 'tis true. But people did care for him and ally with him.

That said, my point was that regardless there would be people like Howe. I never said they'd ally with him. Only that there'd be people like him.

[quote]
Bolded: I can say the same about Loghain. Worrying about the possibility that Orlais might use Grey Wardens to try to take Fereldan later (including those born and raised in Fereldan, apparently) should not take precedence over dealing with a horde of monsters hell-bent on destroying all life.[/quote]

Not use. Just take advantage of the Blight and the Wardens. As the Wardens are politically neutral during the events prior to post-Ostagar, they don't care about wars so long as the Darkspawn are able to be dealt with. Orlesian, Fereldan, Dalish, or monkeys.... they don't care who's running a nation so long as they're free to do their job.


[quote]Let me repeat this one more time. Anora: "Should we not be fighting the darkspawn instead of each other?" "The nobles must be brought to line, and then the darkspawn." I think Loghain is just as bone stupid for thinking the darkspawn can wait till later. [/quote]

To be fair, he didn't believe it was a true Blight -- only an extremely large raid -- and he wasn't exactly convinced by Duncan's vague comments of "Just trust me, I know it. I can sense the Archdemon".

If he had specifics to go off, he would've known the Darkspawn were the primary threat.


[quote]At least the Bannorn has the excuse of never actually seeing the horde, so they don't realize how dangerous it is.[/quote]

Except both Teagan and Eamon believe it to be a Blight themselves.


[quote]Loghain was at Ostagar, saw their numbers firsthand, and supposedly realized they were too numerous and too powerful to take with just his and Cailan's army... and yet he also thinks that he can ignore them for however many months it takes to force the nobles into line, like they're just going to sit around and wait for him to be ready to fight them before they start ravishing villages and polluting farmlands.[/quote]

He saw they were numerous yes, but numbers doesn't equal Archdemon level organization right off the bat. All he thought was that it was a large Darkspawn raid. A very ****ing big one.


[quote]Honestly, at times like this I think it just makes more sense for Loghain to be a plain villain that abandoned the king to die and let the darkspawn run amuck because he's just that ignorant and power-hungry. I cannot believe that the same man who supposedly chose to withdraw an army that stretches out to the horizon because he saw that the darkspawn were even too numerous and too dangerous would also make flippant comments like, "The nobles must be brought to line first." It makes him look like an even bigger moron than he would have if he just used the darkspawn to off the king and then realized they were more powerful than he thought too late.[/quote]

Except he does need to bring the nobility to line, if he wants to fight the Darkspawn next.

You try fighting a war on two fronts. See where it lands you and your men. Kudos if it's not face down in a ditch.


[quote]He's only got one private army, two if you count Howe, while they all have dozens of private armies and control most of the farmlands and trade routes. Plus he's stretched himself really thin by posting all those guards all along the borders, while they have no such strains.[/quote]

He has two Teyrnirs, plus the Arling of Denerim. He controls Gwaren while Howe controls Denerim, Amaranthine, and Highever. Factor in neighboring Banns that might feel pressured to ally with them out of survival -- Ceorlic for one -- and yeah...

A Teyrn commands Arls and Banns. A Bann has at best, a couple hundred soldiers and that's being generous. Add into that how Eamon's forces were.... well... scattered, and they have more at their disposal.

Plus you hear how Loghain's winning the war.



[quote]Yet another plot hole that I'm now convinced would be filled if Loghain was a plain villain. I appreciate BioWare trying to give him some depth and humanity, but I think they went overboard by trying to make him such a ridiculously sympathetic anti-hero. What he thinks, what he says, and what he does conflict so badly in the game that it would make more sense if he was a villainous jerk; then his thoughts and personality would jive with his opinions and actions. 
[/quote]

The sad thing is, they originally intended him to be a card-carrying villain, but tried to change it later on in development. That's why you have such contradictions as Eamon's poisoning, which logically has to happen after Ostagar.

So yes, they originally wanted him to be a plain old villain. But they changed it and had some major failures in execution, but he's now a man with depth -- even if it's largely hidden under three layers of concrete that requires piecing a lot of things together.

So he's now a character with depth. Not perfectly executed depth, but depth nonetheless.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 décembre 2012 - 02:48 .

[sylvanaerie]

Frankly I rather prefer him with depth. One note evil is covered well by Howe, admittedly a pretty vile individual with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. At least Loghain I can feel some pity for. Doesn't mean I like his character any better, but at least he has some notes besides just mustache twirly evil. I hate his character, what he does, but he isn't even in my top five most disliked characters in the game. At least the evil he does isn't based on his own selfish interests but there's an unhealthy dollop of a messianic complex in there. "Only I can save Ferelden!"

LOL and it would seem as with any thread on BSN, the topic jumps the tracks and derails into another Loghain debate. Even his detractors can't say the character doesn't stir up emotion and get them arguing his pros and cons here.

And in keeping with the OP's topic:

It took me at least a handful of playthroughs before I left Anora on the throne. Over the course of my gaming I began to hate her less and see her as a rather complex character with so little time to display that complexity (compared to say, Alistair who you get to see a lot more of in the game). It wasn't till I helped a friend with his fanfic that I began to dig into her motives and viewpoints and see her with a more objective eye (one where she isn't a rival). Then he made me a challenge, make a King Cousland run (which I countered with "make a Queen Cousland run) and we both had fun doing something we never had before.

I won't say I like her per se, but I hate her a lot less than I used to. For such a small (but pivotal) role, Bioware invested a lot of work into making her just as viable a candidate as Alistair for the throne.

And while I hate marrying her to Alistair from a personal level (it works for none of the principles involved, Alistair, Anora and the warden who is romancing him), for Ferelden it's a great move. Alistair has the 'common touch' which keeps Anora grounded to looking after the concerns of those with no voice in the Landsmeet, Anora has the administrative capability to see to the day to day concerns of ruling a kingdom.

What human is perfect? None of them are either, thank the Maker. Bioware breathed life into their creations if we can all argue so passionately and commit ourselves to their tale, even 3 years later.

And I still have to disagree with the perception of "the darkspawn almost entirely destroyed all of Ferelden's farmland".  I think its a perception thing, the player could see the advance, but that doesn't necessarily mean the darkspawn taint had time to completely lay fallow the land.  That seems to take decades to do (as with the First Blight), not a year.  There were 3 other Blights in the interim and it only talks about the Anderfels being that way because the blight there took almost a century to resolve.  I think it would be recoverable, though it may take a few years.  Though we do hear West Hills is overrun and South Reach has as well.  Overrun, yes, but completely destroy it, I think is an overestimation.  In DA2, 6-7 years later, King Alistair doesn't come to Kirkwall seeking aid for "the starving refugees".  The only concern he discusses with the Champion is "Orlais and their stinky cheeses, and their designs on reclaiming Ferelden for themselves".  We do see in Act 1 that the nobleman Hawke is hired to kill (if you chose to work for the Red Irons) is only on someone's death list because he was trying to help the Fereldens.  This would be consistant with "the land was damaged but recoverable".

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 16 décembre 2012 - 10:44 .

[Corker]

@Faerunner, I am sorry. My comment wasn't directed at you, and I apologize for not making that more clear.

[mousestalker]

This topic is quite interesting, however, the walls of quoted text and response are a bit much. What y'all are writing is well worth reading, but it would be easier for me to read if the text were broken up into smaller pieces, with perhaps one or two quoted paragraphs per post.

My apologies for the off topicness.

[Jedimaster88]

sylvanaerie wrote...


LOL and it would seem as with any thread on BSN, the topic jumps the tracks and derails into another Loghain debate. Even his detractors can't say the character doesn't stir up emotion and get them arguing his pros and cons here.


.

Loghain´s influence has spread even beyond Dragon age. Now he has made some touch with ME series.

Those of you who have played ME3 may know what Im talking about. There is a space battle going on with the Geth and the guy who voices Loghain is acting a Quarian admiral whose forces are battling the Geth. At that one key moment he makes a move that can be considered a reasonable tactical move but it also almost gets Sheppard and his squad mates killed. This move made MANY people angry.

Many people have said that this one move reminds them of Loghain. When I first played this scene, I also thought: "Well well, why does this feel and sound so FAMILIAR..."

This is an off topic thing and I apologize for it.

Modifié par Jedimaster88, 16 décembre 2012 - 05:29 .

[TEWR]

mousestalker wrote...

This topic is quite interesting, however, the walls of quoted text and response are a bit much. What y'all are writing is well worth reading, but it would be easier for me to read if the text were broken up into smaller pieces, with perhaps one or two quoted paragraphs per post.

My apologies for the off topicness.

Then this topic would be 10 pages long!