Weeks after this post and I still get angry when I read it. I don't want you to think I haven't responded because I think you're right or anything, because I don't, so I'll try to blurt out some answers. Prepare for short, terse replies.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Sure, maybe. I wouldn't say we know exactly how Maric's reign was regarding the Elves, and we never really hear much bad things happening during Cailan's rule -- save for what happened with Adaia, circumstances unknown.[/quote]
Dragon Age wiki says several purges in the last decade alone to quell riots. Origin information shows that elves live with abuse, squalor, and poverty every day. The only riot we see is when the elves are pushed too far, thanks to Vaughan's sadism. Elves most likely put up with a lot and only riot as a last resort, so the powers that be must push them too far before they riot.
The City Elf Warden lives with a lot of oppression and abuse before meeting King Cailan. Cailan is horrified on learning what's really going on in the alienage and promises to look into it. We learn later that Anora was the true power behind his throne. Loghain takes over after Cailan and allows howe to purge the alienage and sell the survivors into slavery. Anora can promise the City Elf Warden to grant more freedoms for the alienage. In the epilogue, we learn that she cracks down on them, undoing any progress she might have started. She doen't have the excuse of ignorance that Cailan had, or the explanation of ignorance that Loghain liked to hide behind.
[quote]Under Anora, they rioted violently. Circumstances leading up to it being unknown, violent riots rarely help matters. It just creates more tension.
Peaceful protests, while not having the best chance of success, have a much better success rate then violent riots. Violently rioting will just lead to one outcome in most cases: death. [/quote]
Which is why people only riot when they feel they have nothing to lose. Why would people who already live with abuse, poverty, and oppression finally decide they've fallen far enough to react with violence? Chew on that for a while.
[quote]If it doesn't, it's due to some rare factor -- the Warden being able to peacefully dispel the riot of starving commoners being one such thing, and only because they listen to what he has to say because he's either a war hero or a representative of the Order that saved the nation.
As a war hero, his word can be trusted -- and if he was an Elf dealing with Elves, then more so. As an Orlesian, he's still a Warden. There's going to be some distrust still -- you see it during the fealty ceremony a little bit -- but he's also representing the Wardens. [/quote]
And Anora potentially busted Howe's and Loghain's slave-trading wide open, saving any further souls from slavery. That should also earn her some trust among the elves if she's willing to apply for it. Also, why do you assume the Warden is a he?
[quote]Except I'm not claiming that they're not going to trust her, as opposed to earlier when you were claiming Anora just arbitrarily cracked down on them. Just that I see it as unlikely they would trust her, even if she tried to get them too, based on how they would more then likely view it.
They would more then likely see her as a human woman who only got involved when things were politically convenient for her, but did nothing as it was going on earlier -- made worse by her status as Loghain Mac Tir's daughter.[/quote]
Speculation on your part, nothing more.
I can speculate that when she sides with the Warden, she tells the Landsmeet that her father locked her away when she tried to speak out against him, and would have killed her had the Warden not rescued her. If this is the official story when she is queen (and it is technically true), then it would be even more incentive for the elves to give her the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps she did not know of the slave-trading until much later, perhaps she knew but could not do anything to help until the Warden rescued her. It could go either way.
[quote]Pretty much. It's all speculation. Now, there is some way to go both sides. Anora does have an Elven friend/confidant, so some Elves in the Alienage might like that -- plus her being born a commoner originally, as you said. Though remember, she's lived a rich life more then a common life -- and some Elves may indeed view the slavery tackling as her being good for them.[/quote]
You say it's speculation, and yet you keep trying to prove how your speculation holds more ground.
[quote]Others may argue that
she only got involved when it was convenient for her, bring up her relation to Loghain, and say she's lived a rich life.[/quote]
She only got involved when she was able to escape imprisonment from Howe. Howe--the guy who also purged the alienage and sold elves into slavery with Loghain's consent. Being related to Loghain loses incrimination when you remember he locked her up when she spoke against him. Living a rich life might also lose some incrimination when you consider she was born of common blood, so commoners might hope she'll offer them the chance to rise up too.
[quote]Who would have more pull? I dunno. I'm somewhat of a cynic, so I'd think that there'd be more Elves bringing up the negative viewpoints on Anora and swaying others to that perspective then there'd be Elves bringing up positive viewpoints.[/quote]
In other words, you choose to believe the elves brought the crackdown on themselves.
You're a selective cynic. You're idealistic when it comes to Loghain and Anora, and you'll use
any excuse to absolve them of any wrong-doing. When it comes to
other characters, you'll be as critical as possible and use any lack of direct evidence to damn them for their own actions, and even other people's. When it comes to Loghain or Anora, you'll use any excuse to blame their actions on someone else--in this case, you'll try to blame Anora's crack-down on the elves on the elves.
[quote]That's not backing down because their concerns were addressed though.
That's just being peaceful because they thought they were getting help, [/quote]
Indeed, I wonder why they don't do it more often.
[quote]I think, to an extent, both sides were right. There was obviously no Blight disease, but there was sickness.
I think the Healers were actually healing the sick people and sending them back out, but were keeping the healthy ones. Slavers can't take people that are liable to die on the journey due to being sick when taken.[/quote]
Proof or this statement is as good as useless.
[quote]Like I said, Howe's his own brand of evil. It's not really fair to use him as an example of humans everywhere not addressing concerns of the Elves.[/quote]
Point. You missed it. Have we seen Loghain or Anora address elven concerns when they're in power either? Cailan was willing to look into corruption in the alienage when it was brought to his attention. Alistair does more to assure elven rights than elect a Bann of the Alienage. Can we say the same for Loghain or Anora? Considering the former greenlit slavery and the latter continued to crack down despite knowing what they suffer (any ignorance she might have been able to claim at the start of the game is gone by the end), I'm inclined to doubt it.
[quote]I don't think it's really justified to tell him off, assault him, or anything. Being angry at his presence? Sure, that's fine. But don't make that known to anyone except other Elves.
And by the love of the Paragons, don't ****ing try and beat him/kill him. That's just the whole violence begets violence thing. If they had killed him, his family might've sought retribution. The Elves might've refused to go for the crime, leading to eventually... another riot. Possibly one worse then the one Howe did -- and
that one tore the ****ing Veil.[/quote]
This coming from the person who insists Anora cracking down on the alienage must be the elves' fault (victim-blaming) and who insists everything terrible Loghain does is the fault of everyone but Loghain. (His slave-trading alone is apparently the fault of Teagan, Wynne, Howe, Caladrius... everyone but him.) Apparently everything questionable Loghain and Anora do are because of someone else, but anything questionable the elves do is all on them, even if the people around them might arguably push them to be nasty. Nice consistency.
[quote]That's fine. I just said we can infer it. Whether she actually did it or not, I don't know. But I'd like to think she did.
But with her naming it after the Warden died, that is her doing it of her own volition. Unless the CE is somehow haunting her, she's making the choice.[/quote]
Just because you'd like to think it doesn't mean it happened.
The epilogue specifically mentions Alistair giving the Hahren a seat on the Landsmeet every time he's made king, but absolutely never mentions it when Anora is made queen without Alistair also on the throne. From that, we can "infer" that she doesn't do it, wishful thinking aside.
[quote]I wouldn't say that. Of course, it really depends on just what restrictions she eased up on. But I don't think the Elves would've been going "Oh thank the Maker! She's on our side!"[/quote]
After everything they went through under Vaughan, Loghain and Howe's reign, any loosened restrictions would be welcome. Have you ever lived in poverty? When you're hungry enough, any bit of food is welcome. When you're bullied enough, any bit of kindness is welcome.
[quote]Like I said, I'm a bit of a cynic.[/quote]
You're a cynic when it comes to the elves, an idealist when it comes to Anora.
Your favoritism doesn't prove her actions are really more altruistic than what we read in-game.
[quote]And not all humans are blind Elf haters either. IIRC, wasn't it mentioned that the Cousland family was generally very nice to their Alienage Elves?[/quote]
No in-game evidence that I've seen. Iona says that the elves seem to be treated well, but then she also says this to a Cousland who could get her in trouble with her noble mistress (who's also a friend of the family) if she says anything bad about the family. People tend to be more honest with their peers than figures of authority (who could punish them for having the wrong opinion or action). As a City Elf, if you talk to Nessa's family, they say they hear that the Highever Alienage is even worse than the Denerim Alienage. If you talk to Nelaros as a female elf (don't know about males), he actually says it's worse in Highever.
[quote]You can lovingly raise a person to care for their people, but it won't always stick. By the CE origin, Urien was off fighting the Darkspawn -- and he died there, too.[/quote]
Evidence that Urien lovingly raised his son to care for his people or the statement's as good as useless. In fact, again, the origin description makes it very clear that abuse and oppression has been rampent in the alienage for years, and the Dragon Age Wiki says several purges in the last decade alone. Urien's castle is attached to the alienage gates. There's no way he did not know about this, let alone cause it.
Against the darkspawn, Urien could have been drafted rather than volunteer. His castle is down the street from the king's, after all. Going to war doesn't automatically make him an honorable person any more than Rendon Howe's military history with Bryce against Orlais makes him one.
[quote]So it's less that he let Vaughan run amok, but that Vaughan was legally the one in charge.[/quote]
Arl > Bann. Father > Son. I doubt Vaughan was legally the one in charge.
[quote]It's not really damning evidence. It doesn't cast him in a particularly favorable light, I'l grant, but it's not like he's just as bad as Vaughan.[/quote]
So far, I've seen more in-game evidence to suggest he is than not. "The evil that acts and the evil that allows evil," remember?
[quote]But would he have had to do the slavery thing if the Circle was allied with him? If the Bannorn hadn't been pressing him to step down
at the worst possible time? [...]
Incoming headcanon: I'd like to think that he'd try and get the Elves sold into slavery back by having Fereldan spies going to Tevinter. [/quote]
I tried to read this, and yet all I could see was: "It's not Loghain's fault. It's not Loghain's fault. It's
their fault.
They did it.
They made all the wrong decisions. They made him do all those bad things. It was Teagan's fault. It was the Bannorn's fault. It was the Darkspawn's fault. It was the Circle's fault. It was Wynne's fault. It was Howe's fault. It was everyone's fault but Loghain's!" Blaming other people for Loghain's horrible decisions doesn't make Loghain innocent. It just makes you look like an petulant child, stubbornly insisting that your hero never did anything wrong with no evidence other than you like him.
Headcanon is not canon. Your post lost any credibility it might have had.
[quote]I would think if what he's saying about Loghain is so different then what Mary Kirby envisioned, she would've said so.[/quote]
You would think, doesn't make it so. Maybe she doesn't know he's saying these things. Maybe she knows that Gaider fully admits these are just his personal interpretations of the character , and sadly believes that fans would realize it doesn't make his word 100% canon. How often does she come out and speak, anyway?
[quote]Well, isn't that assuming that Fiona is Alistair's mother? It's never really confirmed that was the case, and Goldanna seems to back up how Alistair's mother was a serving woman. DG has said that Alistair is the only
known bastard of Maric's. The key word there is "known", as it says that there are a few others out there.[/quote]
Maric is married to Rowan during the books, right? Does Gaider ever write about his in-marriage infidelities or bastards? Or does he gloss over them and only mentions the one time Maric produces a bastard years after his wife dies, and with a lot of guilt and hesitation if what I've heard of the books is accurate? Seems like retroactively rewriting his character and deliberately going out of his way to make him seem more sympathetic to me.
[quote]If you play as an Elf, he'll tell you of his admiration for the Elves. He'll even tell a City Elf "Don't let anyone ever tell you that you don't belong.
First Warden Maric brought was a woman and she was the finest warrior I've ever seen"[/quote]
Do you even read what you type? I've gotten that line multiple times. Loghain tells the line to a human woman as well as an elven woman because praising you for your
gender, not race. He doesn't tell this to a dwarven woman though, because he's praising her for her race. That's right. Loghain will praise dwarves but not elves. Chew on that.
[quote]He'll tell a Dalish Elf that he's never seen an equal with a bow like the Dalish are before meeting the one Maric knew or since then.[/quote]
Dalish training, not elven race. Cities Elves and Elven Mages are privvy to no such praise.
[quote]You're focusing so much on the slavery thing -- which is a crime, don't get me wrong -- that you're also choosing to see him as some monstrously wicked bastard who doesn't give a damn about anyone.[/quote]
No, I'm choosing to call him out on his consciously committed crimes. You are choosing to blame everyone under the sun for his actions except for him. You are choosing to make excuses for him instead of acknowledging that he did something terrible or, heaven forbid, might deserve to answer for it. Your excuses are just that: excuses.
[quote]Fact: What is necessary isn't always morally acceptable, and Loghain acknowledges this.[/quote]
Except that what Loghain does isn't necessary. He doesn't need to be regent to lead the queen's armies. He doesn't need to fight in the civil war. He doesn't need to sell his people into slavery to fund his war. He doesn't need to distrust his daughter or his people to handle the darkspawn without him. He has plenty of options that he continually chooses to ignore. Therefore, I hold him accountable for his decisions and actions.
[quote]Fact: Loghain implies that he's burdened by a lot of the things he's done -- a few times, actually -- and that he has his own ways of coping with it, as opposed to drinking or praying like other generals he's known did[/quote]
So he feels bad. Big deal. Doesn't change the fact that he did it knowing it was wrong at the time and knowing he had other options but chose to ignore them in favor of the action he knew were wrong but chose to do anyway.
[quote]Fact: He still admires the Elves, even if he had to do something morally repugnant -- but not without valid reasons, as opposed to a "**** the Elves" mentality -- to the Elven community of Denerim.[/quote]
He does not admire the elves. At best, he admires the Dalish's bowmanship. That's it. His attitude toward the elves in-game is dismissive and dehumanizing. "Whatever my regrets may be for the elves, I have done what was needed for the good of Fereldan," not even acknowledging that "the elves" are citizens of Fereldan too. It does not change the fact that he chooses to sell them into slavery rather than stepping down from the regency or accepting help from Grey Wardens. The fact that he chooses to sell the elves into slavery is what I hold against him. Don't like it? Blame Loghain for selling the elves into slavery. (I know you won't blame Loghain for
anything, but try.)
[quote]Specifically? No. But I think it's pretty evident that Howe would've done that on his own without Loghain's knowledge, as you do hear in-game that Loghain was out in the field a lot dealing with the Civil War.[/quote]
If he had, I might let Loghain off the hook. Since he didn't, I hold Loghain as responsible as Howe.
EDIT: Everything after this is lengthy and repetitive. More excuses for Loghain, more blaming on everyone else. I have to like how you resort to insulting Wynne to defend Loghain, and blame her for his "alliance" with the Circle falling through even though it was fragile from the start. Their support for him was tentative at best, and they would have pulled out as soon as they learned of his desertion even if they hadn't learned it from Wynne. He also didn't put any effort to see it through, and he also dropped them like a hot potatoe at the first sign of trouble. Face it; it wasn't a big investment for him, and it doesn't excuse his slave-trading. Nice try.
DOUBLE EDIT: Also, the "miltaristic" reason for selling the elves is bull. The alienage is in the center of the city, so the darkspawn would have to penetrate Denerim's outer walls and pass through the "stable" human part of the city to even reach the alienage. By that point, defending the alienage would be the least of his problems. Plus, Loghain has a track record of leaving people to the darkspawn (Ostagar, Lothering, the southern farming villages), so why not ignore them if the Blight managed to get to Denerim? It's a desperate rationalization. He wouldn't jeopardize human freedom to save them from darkspawn, so there's no excuse doing it to the elves.
Also interesting how you use Loghain's (idiotic) belief that he was doing the right thing at the time to completely excuse his actions, but then hold other characters' beliefs that they were doing the right thing at the time against them just because they turned out to be wrong in the long run. The Circle and Bannorn are morons for not saving their concerns with Loghain being a tyrant until after Blight, but Loghain is just fine for doing
the exact same thing with the Wardens and Orlais? The Bannorn are morons for not prioritizing the darkspawn, but Loghain was just "uninformed of the details" for doing
the exact same thing despite witnessing their numbers and strength firsthand (as his most repetitive excuse for abandoning Ostagar) when the Bannorn did not? I could go on, but now I'm tired and annoyed.
Modifié par Faerunner, 08 janvier 2013 - 10:33 .
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