257 réponses à ce sujet

[Hey]

very true. I joke, but I hear ya.

[In Exile]

Ieldra2 wrote... I think that's why the EC changed things from "hybrids with a new DNA" into "organic species will get an 'altered matrix' to integrate technology" and "synthetics will gain full understanding of organics". Note that there is a contradiction between that and the "new DNA" line that still exists. In the case of contradictions, I feel justified to choose the option I like best, and of course the hybrids with "new DNA" concept is nonsense so I choose the other. 

This line is still beyond stupid, because it relies on absolutely ignoring every possible think about what makes AI, well, AI. The only way the line works is with respect to alien life so incomprehensible as to be impossible to relate to any of our thinking... but that's just a fancy way of saying alien (I even use the word to point out how that works).

All of the ending choices fail because Bioware has no idea how AI works. They wrote a whole story about it, without ever bothering to do the research.

(4) As I said to others: Synthesis is not designed to bring universal peace. It is not designed to do away with war. It is designed to solve one specific problem: that of synthetics out-evolving organics to the point that the latter become extinct. It is meant to preserve aspects of the organic life form, nothing more. The post-Synthesis galaxy will experience a generally bright future, but that's not to say that there won't be new horrors along with the new wonders, and that there will be no conflict.

But this is exactly the thing that makes it so stupid, and it goes back to Bioware not having any idea how AI works, could work, and can't work. In the same way the quarians exist as a way for Bioware to tell immunology to go **** itself, this entire idea of synthetics vs. organics is based on what can only be said to an unbelievably ignorant perspective on AI.

But ignoring all of the stupid inherent in the mechanims of it vis-a-vis what we actually know about how things work, the idea is stupid because understanding doesn't mean jack. Look at our own world: we understand each other just fine, we're all fundamentally the same, and we've been killing the hell out of each other for our beliefs since we've been around. We're not above genocide. There's no reason to think that in a post-synthesis world you'd just wind up with some racist that pushes for global genocide of people that don't have enough glowly green lines.

[PwnedDuck]

This is all from EDI's perspective. She gets nothing but benefits from this. If this were narrated by any organic, it would be less "I am alive" and more "beep-boop I am part computer 100111101. Since Shepard shoved an intel processor in my head, I have loved everyone and beep-boop- there has been a golden age"

[Indy_S]

Less a golden age and more a jade age. Maybe they had this idea for Jade Empire and couldn't figure out a way to implement it?

[ElSuperGecko]

"It's not right.  It looks pretty, calm and peaceful... but it's not right."

Yes, Synthesis is 100% total, unadulterated evil.  And we are warned about it numerous times.

The Prothean Vision in ME1/ME2 = a foreshadowing and warning about Synthesis
The fate of the Prothean race (being turned into Collectors) =  a foreshadowing and warning about Synthesis
The entire Dragon Tooth (what happened to them, by the way?) huskification process =  a foreshadowing and warning about Synthesis
The birth of the Reapers (each created from a harvested race) =  a foreshadowing and warning about Synthesis
Saren's fate and his "vision of the future" =  a foreshadowing and warning about Synthesis

There's more, as well.  With almost every example of organics and synthetics merging leading to horrific results right throughout the series, only the most blissfully ignorant (or hopelessly naive) individuals could possibly think Synthesis would be a good idea.

The ending slides may well show a "happy" outcome, but unfortunately Shepard has no idea of what the outcome will be when making the decision.  So, unless your headcanon that your Shepard is clairvoyant, you can't use them to justify your decision because all you have to go on when you make the decision is your knowledge and understanding of the Reapers, their goals, and your past experiences with the medling of organics and synthetics, almost all of which lead to horrific consequences.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 06 janvier 2013 - 11:18 .

[Ieldra]

Indy_S wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Even though a Utopia is portrayed, it feels wrong. It seems jarring to me that nobody reacts to Synthesis in a negative way in-universe. Otherwise, yeah, it's fine.

EDI says this if you sabotaged the genophage cure:

"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures... and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease..."

I like that quote except for the "Unlimited access to knowledge" part. It might just be my pessimism but it seems like there is nowhere to go from there.

"Unlimited access" doesn't mean "unlimited knowledge". I think it was supposed to mean access to the knowledge of the civilizations preserved in the Reapers, but - as usual - the lack of correct phrasing made this appear weird.

[Indy_S]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

"It's not right.  It looks pretty, calm and peaceful... but it's not right."

Yes, Synthesis is 100% total, unadulterated evil.  And we are warned about it numerous times.

The Prothean Vision in ME1/ME2 = a foreshadowing and warning about Synthesis
The fate of the Prothean race (being turned into Collectors) =  a foreshadowing and warning about Synthesis
The entire Dragon Tooth (what happened to them, by the way?) huskification process =  a foreshadowing and warning about Synthesis
The birth of the Reapers (each created from a harvested race) =  a foreshadowing and warning about Synthesis
Saren's fate and his "vision of the future" =  a foreshadowing and warning about Synthesis

There's more, as well.  With almost every example of organics and synthetics merging leading to horrific results right throughout the series, only the most blissfully ignorant (or hopelessly naive) individuals could possibly think Synthesis would be a good idea.

The ending slides may well show a "happy" outcome, but unfortunately Shepard has no idea of what the outcome will be when making the decision.  So, unless your headcanon that your Shepard is clairvoyant, you can't use them to justify your decision because all you have to go on when you make the decision is your knowledge and understanding of the Reapers, their goals, and your past experiences with the medling of organics and synthetics, almost all of which lead to horrific consequences.

I disagree that it was foreshadowed by most of those but I agree that something is wrong with Synthesis. I'm okay with blind faith being rewarded but it still feels like it shouldn't end like that.

[Indy_S]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

I like that quote except for the "Unlimited access to knowledge" part. It might just be my pessimism but it seems like there is nowhere to go from there.

"Unlimited access" doesn't mean "unlimited knowledge". I think it was supposed to mean access to the knowledge of the civilizations preserved in the Reapers, but - as usual - the lack of correct phrasing made this appear weird.

It could very well mean that but that phrasing certainly sets off alarms in my head. For one reason or another, I believe there is a peak in evolution and I believe that the portrayal of Synthesis justs puts us there immediately, with no prospect of change in the future. There might still be, but that's why it feels plain strange to me.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Synthesis is pure bad, its supporters are horribly bad, OP is bad for making this thread and they should all feel bad!

[ElSuperGecko]

Indy_S wrote...
I disagree that it was foreshadowed by most of those but I agree that something is wrong with Synthesis. I'm okay with blind faith being rewarded but it still feels like it shouldn't end like that.

Well, that's up to you, but upon hearing the Catalyst "describe" (for want of a better word, it does't really give us much information about it and expects us to take it's "perfect solution" on faith alone) Synthesis, those situations are immediately what my mind turned to, as they all show what happens when organics are melded with synthetics under the eye of the Reapers.

And while we're on the subject, here's another thought:  no one designing or working on the Crucible had any idea that it was going to be used for Synthesis in the first place. Everyone believed it was a weapon, to be used against the Reapers. Synthesis is NOT our idea, Hackett's idea, Liara's idea or any of the Crucible scientist's ideas, it is an idea and suggestion put forward by no-one other than the Catalyst, and the Catalyst alone. Reaper technology allows Synthesis, and as we are explicitly told within the game by Garrus "nothing good EVER came from Reaper tech."

[DirtyPhoenix]

PwnedDuck wrote...

This is all from EDI's perspective. She gets nothing but benefits from this. If this were narrated by any organic, it would be less "I am alive" and more "beep-boop I am part computer 100111101. Since Shepard shoved an intel processor in my head, I have loved everyone and beep-boop- there has been a golden age"

Just trying to imagine how the Destroy epilogue would sound like if narrated by a synthetic.. oh wait.

[Keatstwo]

Eh, there's still plenty to see and do in the universe post-synthesis. Just because everyone doesn't have to evolve any more doesn't mean that life is over. Do you get up in the morning and just go back to bed when it suddenly dawns on you that the human race won't be evolving biologically in your lifetime? Societal change and acquisition of new knowledge and experiences occur independently of physical evolution.

[Indy_S]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Indy_S wrote...
I disagree that it was foreshadowed by most of those but I agree that something is wrong with Synthesis. I'm okay with blind faith being rewarded but it still feels like it shouldn't end like that.

Well, that's up to you, but upon hearing the Catalyst "describe" (for want of a better word, it does't really give us much information about it and expects us to take it's "perfect solution" on faith alone) Synthesis, those situations are immediately what my mind turned to, as they all show what happens when organics are melded with synthetics under the eye of the Reapers.

And while we're on the subject, here's another thought:  no one designing or working on the Crucible had any idea that it was going to be used for Synthesis in the first place. Everyone believed it was a weapon, to be used against the Reapers. Synthesis is NOT our idea, Hackett's idea, Liara's idea or any of the Crucible scientist's ideas, it is an idea and suggestion put forward by no-one other than the Catalyst, and the Catalyst alone. Reaper technology allows Synthesis, and as we are explicitly told within the game by Garrus "nothing good EVER came from Reaper tech."

I can understand your mind turning to those, but even now I can only connect it with your Saren example. Brought up in the climax of the first game, echoed in the climax of the third. And in the second, okay, I just made that link.

Your second paragraph is a copy-paste from another of your responses, I see. Thumbs up for efficiency. It's just that I don't buy the Crucible being a Reaper trap. It could have been an interesting twist but it wasn't in the game.

Just trying to imagine how the Destroy epilogue would sound like if narrated by a synthetic.. oh wait.

"Well that sucks. I guess we technically won but COME ON! We already PROVED we were not a threat. You know what, f*** you guys. Go and have your little disgusting children. Go and eat some crappy food. Oh, and try, JUST TRY, to work out Pi without us. I dare you! You'll eventually replace us, and you know what, maybe they'll be the evil "wipe-everything-out" kind that the stupid kid thinks we were. Good luck then. Total d****bags...

[Indy_S]

Keatstwo wrote...

Eh, there's still plenty to see and do in the universe post-synthesis. Just because everyone doesn't have to evolve any more doesn't mean that life is over. Do you get up in the morning and just go back to bed when it suddenly dawns on you that the human race won't be evolving biologically in your lifetime? Societal change and acquisition of new knowledge and experiences occur independently of physical evolution.

I painted it bleak and I'll probably continue to be bleak about Synthesis. You're right that it's not as bleak as I see it, but the idea of stagnation even in one respect is abhorrant to me.

[ElSuperGecko]

Indy_S wrote...
I can understand your mind turning to those, but even now I can only connect it with your Saren example. Brought up in the climax of the first game, echoed in the climax of the third. And in the second, okay, I just made that link.

It drives it home with the Catalyst's EC dialogue "we have tried a... similar solution before".

What else would that "similar solution" be, other than husks?  Organics fusing with Synthetics.  That's what the Prothean Beacon vision shows, andf that was their fate.  To become organic/synthetic hybrids, and Reaper thralls.  That's what happened to Saren, and that's essentially what the Reapers are themselves, as we saw with the creation of the Human proto-Reaper in ME2.

All throughout the series, we've been fighting against organics that have been fused with synthetics.  Then, at the end of the series we're offered the opportunity to fuse ALL organics with ALL synthetics.  It's OK for pople to say "this time it's different", but it's the Catalyst's suggestion and at the point Shepard makes the decision how would (s)he know that for sure?  If that's not foreshadowing, if that doesn't set alarm bells off ringing, then you have to wonder what will!

Your second paragraph is a copy-paste from another of your responses, I see. Thumbs up for efficiency. It's just that I don't buy the Crucible being a Reaper trap. It could have been an interesting twist but it wasn't in the game.

Yep, why bother rewriting the argument when it's already been effectively presented elsewhere?  It still fits the discussion.  We used the Mass Relays without any idea who created them, where they came from or what they would do.  The various races of the galaxy populate the Citadel without any idea who created it, where it came from or even how it works, we find the plans for the Crucible and build it without any idea who designed it, what it's actual purpose is and what it will do... it might not be revealed as having Reaper origins in the game itself, but it doesn't take too much of a leap of the imagination to join the dots.  I'm not saying it IS a Reaper trap, only that it COULD be... which should give more than enough pause for thought when contemplating the Catalyst's intentions and recommendations.

[shodiswe]

I think the thing is this, that most "Gamers" have gotten used to the idea that to stop someone or an organization you have to kill them, there is no middle ground.
It is actualy very videogamey.
When I think about it, most games invoves killing most people who does something wrong, no matter what it is, or kill them in some other way.

However because if what they represent and the wrongness of them being the slushified victims of horror it seems somewhat right to put them out of their suffering, but if that requiers killing innocents then it's all wrong if there is an alternative.

At the same time, they contain the last memories and history of the people that got killed. To destroy it is to destroy their history and who they were and the diversity they once had. You loose a lot of knowledge, history and culture. Maybe one of them had a cure to Jokers Vroliks syndrome.

Modifié par shodiswe, 06 janvier 2013 - 12:28 .

[gert56nom]

with regards to the images showing seemingly perfect civilisations just remember the Roman empire had grand buildings a great civilisation OH and required thousands of new slaves on a regular basis to keep it all working.

a scifi referance "Village of the damned or the Midwich cuckoos if you've read the book" beautiful blond children highly intelligent & will use there mind control powers to make you kill yourself.


the point is not to judge by appearances.

I'm sure the indoctrinated Protheans were very happy being turned into collectors, but does that make the best ending forcing it onto everyone else.


& if Starkid is controlling the reapers why dosnt he have them pause while Shepard contacts the concil & discusses the options , No it has to be NOW , that seems more like desperation on the StaKids part

[Cadeym]

I dislike synthesis and believe it to a lie or lazy writing simply because it would be implausible to rewrite the DNA of everything without altering their apperance.

All sentient life, animals, plants, dirt and air is now composed of the same molecular structure. Yet nothing has been visually altered.

Also, how does one altern a persons DNA in an instant flash without first pulling every single particle apart and then reasembling them.

[Ieldra]

shodiswe wrote...
I think the thing is this, that most "Gamers" have gotten used to the idea that to stop someone or an organization you have to kill them, there is no middle ground.
It is actualy very videogamey.
When I think about it, most games invoves killing most people who does something wrong, no matter what it is, or kill them in some other way.

Indeed. Think of the tired old argument that it has always been your goal to destroy the Reapers. Well, no. It may have been a specific player's goal, but you can only set that as canonical if you cannot imagine beyond the video game convention "defeat = kill". As opposed to that, real wars almost never end with the total destruction of one side, and most real-world villains eventually get captured, not killed. 

However because if what they represent and the wrongness of them being the slushified victims of horror it seems somewhat right to put them out of their suffering, but if that requiers killing innocents then it's all wrong if there is an alternative.

Suffering? How do you know that? Whatever their origin, we have no idea about the Reapers' state of mind. If you think you must kill them then do so, but don't pretend you're doing them a favor.

At the same time, they contain the last memories and history of the people that got killed. To destroy it is to destroy their history and who they were and the diversity they once had. You loose a lot of knowledge, history and culture. Maybe one of them had a cure to Jokers Vroliks syndrome.

Yes, that's one of my main reasons for choosing Synthesis: the legacy of past cycles is not lost but integrated into the new post-Synthesis civilization. Whatever is left of them - be it "just" knowledge or actual minds, we don't know - in some way it will come to life again.

[Trigunvts]

I think its about the whole forcing a change on the entire galaxy. It removes peoples right to choose. I find it hard to believe that every single being in the galaxy would be on board with synthesis. This thread is an example of how the entire galaxy couldn't possibly be on board with this.

[Sousabird]

What would be wrong with losing our humanity (you said was unimportant) and transcend mortality and become a new reaper? Think about it, massive power and the ability for our entire civilization to coexist with all of the other previous cycles, it would be glorious.

[ElSuperGecko]

Trigunvts wrote...
I think its about the whole forcing a change on the entire galaxy. It removes peoples right to choose. I find it hard to believe that every single being in the galaxy would be on board with synthesis. This thread is an example of how the entire galaxy couldn't possibly be on board with this.

CATALYST:  "We have tried a ...similar solution in the past.  But it has always failed.  *cough* husks *cough* excuse me.  It is not something which can be... forced.  So please, Shepard, force Synthesis on the entire galaxy for me.  It is the perfect solution!"

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 06 janvier 2013 - 06:57 .

[Draining Dragon]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

but i am with crono. you saying you agree with IT or is this sarcasm?

It's not sarcasm. I really want to understand what BSN thinks about those slides. I want to settle on a canon ending, and I think Synthesis has some very appealing characteristics. However, it's the most hated of the three main choices, and many people have stated that they don't trust the choice.

Because it's space magic. It makes no sense and was blatantly ripped off of Deus Ex.

[JamieCOTC]

*sigh*

If you think the starkid is lying or that the EC endings are an illusion you are giving the writers (Casey and Mac) a hell of a lot more credit than they deserve. They couldn't come up w/ IT on their best day. Remember the human Reaper? Remember Shepard getting killed in the first 10 minutes of ME2 and it never phasing him/her? Remember how Sole Survivor Shep said nothing about Cerberus killing his/her team on Akuze? Same people who wrote this ending and that's why it is bad, not an illusion.

That said, play IT all you want if it makes you feel better.

[DirtyPhoenix]

JamieCOTC wrote...

If you think the starkid is lying or that the EC endings are an illusion you are giving the writers (Casey and Mac) a hell of a lot more credit than they deserve

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Modifié par pirate1802, 06 janvier 2013 - 07:25 .