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[Trigunvts]

I don't necessarily think the endings are an illusion. Unless the ending is changed the ending is what it is (unless you choose to accept the fan made endings as the endings) but I can still believe glowboy is lying about synthesis being the best choice,

[JamieCOTC]

Trigunvts wrote...

I don't necessarily think the endings are an illusion. Unless the ending is changed the ending is what it is (unless you choose to accept the fan made endings as the endings) but I can still believe glowboy is lying about synthesis being the best choice,

People who believe this really should read the leaked script. 

Once Shepard reaches the top of the elevator he begins a conversation
with GUARDIAN where all the mysteries of the universe are
revealed.Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the
Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become
one with the Reapers.

Guardian was changed to the Catalyst when they cut out the Prothean from the main game and "becoming one w/ the Reapers" was changed to synthesis. Before ME3 was launched there was concern about how MP would affect the game. Repeatedly Casey and co. reassured fans that they could experience the best ending w/ single player alone. When the game launched, however, players could not get a high enough EMS to have Shepard survive w/out playing MP. So either they lied, screwed up or destroy wasn’t the best ending. When the EMS issue was “fixed” Chris Priestly revealed that Shepard surviving was meant to be essentially an easter egg.  The whole "your ending is the best ending" didn't come about until after the backlash.

In earlier draft of the script the Catalyst is much more clear in its intent and seems to be waiting for Shepard to come to him rather than trying to trick him/her.

Shepard: What... is this?

Catalyst: This is the Citadel. Where I live.

Shepard: And who are you, exactly?

Catalyst: I am the Catalyst.

Shepard: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst.

Catalyst: An honest mistake. The Citadel is an extension of me.

Catalyst: You must be quick. The war still rages out there.

Shepard: But, the Crucible... it didn't work?

Catalyst: The Crucible is a tool, much like the Reapers. And tools need a user.

Shepard: I don't …

Catalyst: You are the user of the Crucible, as I am the user of the Reapers.

Catalyst: I was created eons ago to solve a problem. The Reapers are my solution.

Shepard: What?

Catalyst: The Reapers main purpose is to prevent organics from
creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy
them.

Shepard: But that's exactly what you're doing.

Catalyst: Not exactly. The Reapers harvest fully developed civilizations, leaving the lesser ones intact.

Catalyst: And the essence of each harvested civilization is stored, forever, in Reaper form.

Shepard: What is it you want from me?

Catalyst: I can harness and direct the energy of the Crucible.

Catalyst: But you must choose how to release it.

Catalyst: And you must decide the form its energy will take.

Shepard: I don’t understand.

Catalyst: The energy can be released as a destructive force.
Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will be
destroyed.

Catalyst: As will much of the technology your kind rely on.

Catalyst: Including the relays you will use to dispense the energy.

Shepard: And the other choice?

Catalyst: You may harness the energy. Use it to circumvent my control of the Reapers.

Shepard: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.

Catalyst: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.

Shepard: And what happens to me?

Catalyst: You will subvert my existence. You will control the Reapers. You will continue to seek an answer to problem.

Shepard: But the Reapers will obey me?

Catalyst: Correct.

Catalyst: There is another choice.

Catalyst: My ultimate goal, the exact solution to the singularity problem, is to combine the synthetic and the organic.

Shepard: Combine?

Catalyst: Much like yourself. You are already a melding of both.

Catalyst: If you choose so, your energy, combined with that of
the Crucible, can be used to convert, and transform each of our kind.

Catalyst: We, will become like you, and organic life will become
like us. And the problem of Technological Singularity will be solved.

Catalyst: But you must choose.

Catalyst: But you must act. It must be your volition that guides my actions.

Catalyst: Go. If you falter now, the cycle will continue. I will not act as Catalyst if you do not act first.

Shepard: So, I just...

 

This just means that the original intent was that synthesis was BW's choice for best ending, which is really obvious actually, but as fans do when disapointed they make rationalizations.  There is nothing wrong w/ thinking the kid is lying, but I don't for one second beleive that was the original intent.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 06 janvier 2013 - 08:00 .

[CosmicGnosis]

JamieCOTC wrote...

In earlier draft of the script the Catalyst is much more clear in its intent and seems to be waiting for Shepard to come to him rather than trying to trick him/her.

Shepard: What... is this?

Catalyst: This is the Citadel. Where I live.

Shepard: And who are you, exactly?

Catalyst: I am the Catalyst.

Shepard: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst.

Catalyst: An honest mistake. The Citadel is an extension of me.

Catalyst: You must be quick. The war still rages out there.

Shepard: But, the Crucible... it didn't work?

Catalyst: The Crucible is a tool, much like the Reapers. And tools need a user.

Shepard: I don't …

Catalyst: You are the user of the Crucible, as I am the user of the Reapers.

Catalyst: I was created eons ago to solve a problem. The Reapers are my solution.

Shepard: What?

Catalyst: The Reapers main purpose is to prevent organics from
creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy
them.

Shepard: But that's exactly what you're doing.

Catalyst: Not exactly. The Reapers harvest fully developed civilizations, leaving the lesser ones intact.

Catalyst: And the essence of each harvested civilization is stored, forever, in Reaper form.

Shepard: What is it you want from me?

Catalyst: I can harness and direct the energy of the Crucible.

Catalyst: But you must choose how to release it.

Catalyst: And you must decide the form its energy will take.

Shepard: I don’t understand.

Catalyst: The energy can be released as a destructive force.
Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will be
destroyed.

Catalyst: As will much of the technology your kind rely on.

Catalyst: Including the relays you will use to dispense the energy.

Shepard: And the other choice?

Catalyst: You may harness the energy. Use it to circumvent my control of the Reapers.

Shepard: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.

Catalyst: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.

Shepard: And what happens to me?

Catalyst: You will subvert my existence. You will control the Reapers. You will continue to seek an answer to problem.

Shepard: But the Reapers will obey me?

Catalyst: Correct.

Catalyst: There is another choice.

Catalyst: My ultimate goal, the exact solution to the singularity problem, is to combine the synthetic and the organic.

Shepard: Combine?

Catalyst: Much like yourself. You are already a melding of both.

Catalyst: If you choose so, your energy, combined with that of
the Crucible, can be used to convert, and transform each of our kind.

Catalyst: We, will become like you, and organic life will become
like us. And the problem of Technological Singularity will be solved.

Catalyst: But you must choose.

Catalyst: But you must act. It must be your volition that guides my actions.

Catalyst: Go. If you falter now, the cycle will continue. I will not act as Catalyst if you do not act first.

Shepard: So, I just...

 

This just means that the original intent was that synthesis was BW's choice for best ending, which is really obvious actually, but as fans do when disapointed they make rationalizations.  There is nothing wrong w/ thinking the kid is lying, but I don't for one second beleive that was the original intent.

That conversation is SO MUCH clearer than the original...

I also like the fact that Destroy is more thematically consistent. The relays are destroyed only in that ending, synthetics are destroyed, and technology in general is damaged.

Also, if the only options available are Destroy and Control, then Control is clearly more appealing. I think I'm starting to accept the claim that BioWare, at the last minute, tried to subvert our expectations as to what is right and wrong. This was probably the real "twist". The problem is that they never explained away indoctrination...

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 06 janvier 2013 - 08:17 .

[Wayning_Star]

so many artists, not enough canvas..

[Volc19]

I don't think synthesis is evil. I can recognize that, in the short term, our Galaxy is richer and more happy because of it. I do not see it as indoctrination or bad just because Saren liked it.

I do, however, see situations that may arise in the future that would cause a Synthesized Galaxy to become an antagonistic force.

As an example, we have the Reapers. They exist generally unaltered. They have only stopped the harvest because the problem that they have been trying to solve has gone and solved itself. Now, what happens when, and this is a 'when' rather than an 'if', we travel the stars further, and end up in a new galaxy? What happens when we explore it and stumble upon life that isn't synthesized? The standard populace will likely not care, but the Reapers will try to enact their solution on this life. After that, there are few courses of action that can be taken. We could either oppose the Reapers and attempt to start another war with them, killing billions in the crossfire. We could create another crucible and move the citadel to the new galaxy to synthesize it against the will of the population, potentially provoking a conflict with them. Or we could just let the Reapers reap uninterrupted, exterminating all life in that galaxy on a regular basis and inflicting horrors upon them that can hardly be conceptualized. We will become the green plague, marauding through the universe and telling all life that they are to be synthesized or obliterated.

[JamieCOTC]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

In earlier draft of the script the Catalyst is much more clear in its intent and seems to be waiting for Shepard to come to him rather than trying to trick him/her.

Shepard: What... is this?

Catalyst: This is the Citadel. Where I live.

Shepard: And who are you, exactly?

Catalyst: I am the Catalyst.

Shepard: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst.

Catalyst: An honest mistake. The Citadel is an extension of me.

Catalyst: You must be quick. The war still rages out there.

Shepard: But, the Crucible... it didn't work?

Catalyst: The Crucible is a tool, much like the Reapers. And tools need a user.

Shepard: I don't …

Catalyst: You are the user of the Crucible, as I am the user of the Reapers.

Catalyst: I was created eons ago to solve a problem. The Reapers are my solution.

Shepard: What?

Catalyst: The Reapers main purpose is to prevent organics from
creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy
them.

Shepard: But that's exactly what you're doing.

Catalyst: Not exactly. The Reapers harvest fully developed civilizations, leaving the lesser ones intact.

Catalyst: And the essence of each harvested civilization is stored, forever, in Reaper form.

Shepard: What is it you want from me?

Catalyst: I can harness and direct the energy of the Crucible.

Catalyst: But you must choose how to release it.

Catalyst: And you must decide the form its energy will take.

Shepard: I don’t understand.

Catalyst: The energy can be released as a destructive force.
Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will be
destroyed.

Catalyst: As will much of the technology your kind rely on.

Catalyst: Including the relays you will use to dispense the energy.

Shepard: And the other choice?

Catalyst: You may harness the energy. Use it to circumvent my control of the Reapers.

Shepard: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.

Catalyst: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.

Shepard: And what happens to me?

Catalyst: You will subvert my existence. You will control the Reapers. You will continue to seek an answer to problem.

Shepard: But the Reapers will obey me?

Catalyst: Correct.

Catalyst: There is another choice.

Catalyst: My ultimate goal, the exact solution to the singularity problem, is to combine the synthetic and the organic.

Shepard: Combine?

Catalyst: Much like yourself. You are already a melding of both.

Catalyst: If you choose so, your energy, combined with that of
the Crucible, can be used to convert, and transform each of our kind.

Catalyst: We, will become like you, and organic life will become
like us. And the problem of Technological Singularity will be solved.

Catalyst: But you must choose.

Catalyst: But you must act. It must be your volition that guides my actions.

Catalyst: Go. If you falter now, the cycle will continue. I will not act as Catalyst if you do not act first.

Shepard: So, I just...

 

This just means that the original intent was that synthesis was BW's choice for best ending, which is really obvious actually, but as fans do when disapointed they make rationalizations.  There is nothing wrong w/ thinking the kid is lying, but I don't for one second beleive that was the original intent.

That conversation is SO MUCH clearer than the original...

I also like the fact that Destroy is more thematically consistent. The relays are destroyed only in that ending, synthetics are destroyed, and technology in general is damaged.

Also, if the only options available are Destroy and Control, then Control is clearly more appealing. I think I'm starting to accept the claim that BioWare, at the last minute, tried to subvert our expectations as to what is right and wrong. This was probably the real "twist". The problem is that they never explained away indoctrination...

Shepard was supposed to come under Reaper control (and control taken away from the player) toward the end of the game, but it was scrapped because they couldn't get the technical issue of having dialogue choices pop up w/out total player control to work.  (This is according to to the "Final Hours of ME3 App"). My guess is that Shepard was supposed to become indoctrinated, but instead they threw together some ambigious scenes to make people speculate if s/he was becoming indoctrinated ... or not.   However Shepard being indoctrinated or not has little to do w/ the final choices. The only way IT makes any sense is if Shepard wakes up after picking destroy and there is more to do, the games isn't over, which what was the orginal theory of IT. Think about it. Starbrat isn't fond of destroy or control.  He's pointing toward synthesis and if that's a trap then it stands to reason the other two choices are a trap as well which makes refuse the only logical choice if StarBrat was lying.

As I said before if you want to play an IT ME3, fine.  I just don't beleive it was BW's original intent. I honestly beleive the endigs were meant to be taken at face value and anything esle is giving Mac and Casey too much credit.

[Ieldra]

Trigunvts wrote...
People who believe this really should read the leaked script. 
[...]

In earlier draft of the script the Catalyst is much more clear in its intent and seems to be waiting for Shepard to come to him rather than trying to trick him/her.

Shepard: What... is this?

Catalyst: This is the Citadel. Where I live.

Shepard: And who are you, exactly?

Catalyst: I am the Catalyst.

Shepard: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst.

Catalyst: An honest mistake. The Citadel is an extension of me.

Catalyst: You must be quick. The war still rages out there.

Shepard: But, the Crucible... it didn't work?

Catalyst: The Crucible is a tool, much like the Reapers. And tools need a user.

Shepard: I don't …

Catalyst: You are the user of the Crucible, as I am the user of the Reapers.

Catalyst: I was created eons ago to solve a problem. The Reapers are my solution.

Shepard: What?

Catalyst: The Reapers main purpose is to prevent organics from
creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy
them.

Shepard: But that's exactly what you're doing.

Catalyst: Not exactly. The Reapers harvest fully developed civilizations, leaving the lesser ones intact.

Catalyst: And the essence of each harvested civilization is stored, forever, in Reaper form.

Shepard: What is it you want from me?

Catalyst: I can harness and direct the energy of the Crucible.

Catalyst: But you must choose how to release it.

Catalyst: And you must decide the form its energy will take.

Shepard: I don’t understand.

Catalyst: The energy can be released as a destructive force.
Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will be
destroyed.

Catalyst: As will much of the technology your kind rely on.

Catalyst: Including the relays you will use to dispense the energy.

Shepard: And the other choice?

Catalyst: You may harness the energy. Use it to circumvent my control of the Reapers.

Shepard: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.

Catalyst: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.

Shepard: And what happens to me?

Catalyst: You will subvert my existence. You will control the Reapers. You will continue to seek an answer to problem.

Shepard: But the Reapers will obey me?

Catalyst: Correct.

Catalyst: There is another choice.

Catalyst: My ultimate goal, the exact solution to the singularity problem, is to combine the synthetic and the organic.

Shepard: Combine?

Catalyst: Much like yourself. You are already a melding of both.

Catalyst: If you choose so, your energy, combined with that of
the Crucible, can be used to convert, and transform each of our kind.

Catalyst: We, will become like you, and organic life will become
like us. And the problem of Technological Singularity will be solved.

Catalyst: But you must choose.

Catalyst: But you must act. It must be your volition that guides my actions.

Catalyst: Go. If you falter now, the cycle will continue. I will not act as Catalyst if you do not act first.

Shepard: So, I just...

This just means that the original intent was that synthesis was BW's choice for best ending, which is really obvious actually, but as fans do when disapointed they make rationalizations.  There is nothing wrong w/ thinking the kid is lying, but I don't for one second beleive that was the original intent.

This is from the intermediate version of the script. Still the narrative inconsistency exists, but the picture is much clearer. I can only repeat: why the hell did they replace that with nonsense?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 janvier 2013 - 12:37 .

[Eckswhyzed]

Volc19 wrote...

I don't think synthesis is evil. I can recognize that, in the short term, our Galaxy is richer and more happy because of it. I do not see it as indoctrination or bad just because Saren liked it.

I do, however, see situations that may arise in the future that would cause a Synthesized Galaxy to become an antagonistic force.

As an example, we have the Reapers. They exist generally unaltered. They have only stopped the harvest because the problem that they have been trying to solve has gone and solved itself. Now, what happens when, and this is a 'when' rather than an 'if', we travel the stars further, and end up in a new galaxy? What happens when we explore it and stumble upon life that isn't synthesized? The standard populace will likely not care, but the Reapers will try to enact their solution on this life. After that, there are few courses of action that can be taken. We could either oppose the Reapers and attempt to start another war with them, killing billions in the crossfire. We could create another crucible and move the citadel to the new galaxy to synthesize it against the will of the population, potentially provoking a conflict with them. Or we could just let the Reapers reap uninterrupted, exterminating all life in that galaxy on a regular basis and inflicting horrors upon them that can hardly be conceptualized. We will become the green plague, marauding through the universe and telling all life that they are to be synthesized or obliterated.

The Reaper's motivation to 'reap' comes from the Catalyst's control of them. With the destruction of the Citadel (and hence the Catalyst), my belief is that the Reapers do not have any desire to 'reap' in a post-synthesis galaxy.