257 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

Synthesis isn't quite universally bright. Jacob has his low EMS slide where he's comforting the grieving. Of course, it's balanced with Kasumi getting a happy ending only in Synthesis.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

jtav wrote...

Synthesis isn't quite universally bright. Jacob has his low EMS slide where he's comforting the grieving. Of course, it's balanced with Kasumi getting a happy ending only in Synthesis.

I have a feeling that is due to limited space on the DLC download, synthesis does not show Grunt leaving the shuttle with Wrex either for example.

[Malanek]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Edit:
About the "earned" benefits? By whose standards? Who determines if, or when, something is "earned"? This kind of thinking is Protestant work ethic, it's very specific to a certain cultural substream of the western hemisphere. Why the hell is it less acceptable to get the same benefits as a gift?

I presume you were responding to me. I have no idea what "Protestant work ethic" is, what I said was in no way based on that. There are plenty of times this theme has come up within ME itself. The Krogan were uplifted before they were ready and it resulted in disaster. The Protheans meddled with the Asari and the Asari used it to gain a big advantage on the rest of the galaxy through deceipt and hypocrisy. The Reapers "gave" the Mass Relay technology to numerous cycles so that they would develop along the lines they wanted so they could be easily wiped out.

Not developing technology naturally removes innovation. It's a common theme of science fiction that sentient alien species should not be interfered with but left to develop naturally. Real history involves great civilisations start to falter when they stagnate with complacency rather than continue to strive and innovate.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I have to admit, I have sometimes wondered why certain people insist that Synthesis represents everyone being indoctrinated and/or the Catalyst and the Reapers being in control when the slides at the end supply no evidence to support that.

To say that the Synthesis slides are bad writing and that the writers didn't earn the generally upbeat picture they present is a valid argument, even if it's one that I think is somewhat overblown. But I do have to draw the line at interpretations that rest too much on "it's all an illusion"-type logic that can never exactly be disproven but doesn't flow naturally from the narrative as it's presented. I mean, how do we know that the Eden Prime beacon wasn't a fake designed by the Reapers and that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated the moment (s)he received the vision?

[Seival]

Most people who dislike Synthesis just don't have proper understanding of this ending.

[Anacronian Stryx]

CosmoGnosis wrote...

Let's look at some pictures. All three slides are exclusive to the Synthesis ending.


"... to recover the greatness that was lost... and surpass it."


"We will reclaim our worlds... and the stars."


"... taking our first steps into a new and wonderful future, where organics and synthetics can coexist peacefully."

BSN, I want you to be absolutely clear with me. Do the majority of you believe that these slides should not be taken literally? That is, the slide are illusions, exaggerations, half-truths, etc.? There is absolutely nothing good about these slides? Is there something sinister or deceptive about them? The krogan really don't rebuild and improve their civilization? The quarians and seth really don't willingly coexist and rebuild Rannoch together?

No matter what we see or hear, Synthesis is a deception?

Yeah it's a pretty utopia alright, Sad you had to violate every single form of life in the galaxy to achieve it by forcefully alter their DNA with a trait will persist and grow stronger since both parents will have it.

Sad you had to perform an act that makes anything evil that the reapers did seem petty in comparison..and all this only to save the small handful of sentient races.

[CosmicGnosis]

jtav wrote...

Synthesis isn't quite universally bright. Jacob has his low EMS slide where he's comforting the grieving. Of course, it's balanced with Kasumi getting a happy ending only in Synthesis.

...That's interesting.

[blueumi]

no i get that the reapers would be different as well we all would that does not mean that it would be good or bad nore does it change that they did not get a say in it that it was just done to people because shepard wants to be god and change everyone

since it was never done before how could even the reapers know if it would be good

we don't know much because bioware did not give us much to work with so it's not a choice made with peoples eyes open

[Ieldra]

Seival wrote...
Most people who dislike Synthesis just don't have proper understanding of this ending.

For me, there is exactly one legitimate reason for disliking it: the fact that you must change the biochemistry of all life in order to get it. I find it quite understandable if people don't want to do that. 

Any other reason, yes, is probably rooted in a lack of understanding. The persistent myths about Synthesis are quite telling in that regard. Note that there appears to be an *unwillingness* to understand it for some weird reason. Some people cling to their negative preconceptions like a dogma, against what Bioware is telling us in the slides.

[LilLino]

Seival wrote...

Most people who dislike Synthesis just don't have proper understanding of this ending.

Indeed, because people who like it have the greatest brains in the world and absolutely deserve to feel superior to everyone else.

Yeah, good argument there.

[FlyingSquirrel]

It is just thematically inconsistent.

We spend 3 games getting to know various races of organics and synthetics. Despite their differences and histories the point is that life fights for a right to a future.

Synthesis subverts this theme by asserting that further though not total, physiological homogeneity (i.e. green circuits or whatever) is the surest way to peace. At best this is silly, at worst it is unsettling in a "body horror to prevent race war" way.

I guess I just don't see Synthesis as doing that. While it may be establishing *some* further homogeneity, is everyone having green eyes and synthetic implants that much bigger of a deal than the similarities that already exist? For example, everyone seems to communicate through speech that can be run through some sort of universal translator, with only the elcor needing to make further adjustments to be clear to other species. Aside from the hanar, all the spacefaring species seem to be bipedal or quadripedal. The asari are the only species that don't have two genders.

It looks to me, in the Synthesis epilogue, like turians are still turians, humans are still humans, krogan are still krogan, etc. The change is more along the lines of, say, blood-compatibility than actual merging of species. I wouldn't be surprised if post-Synthesis turians and quarians can now eat non-dextro-specific food, for example. From the way EDI is talking, it sounds like the changes have more to do with enhanced mental capacity, ease of communication and information, and medical advances than with elimination of the aspects that make the galaxy diverse.

[Eterna]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Simply put, everything in the Synthesis epilogue is about what Edi *hopes* will happen in the future.

These hopes are likely to not come to pass. The Catalyst is still in control. Non-Synthesized Life or non-Synthesized AI could and probably will arise; the Reaping will begin again once something disrupts the Reaper mind-control network necessary to eliminate conflict.

The Quarians and the Geth are *already* on a path to cooperatively rebuild Rannoch. Neither Control nor Synthesis is necessary for that outcome. And the only reason it wouldn't happen in Destroy is because the writers realized that without artificially inserting a downside to Destroy, nearly every player would pick it because the other two choices are abhorrent.

Good grief. 

[General User]

jtav wrote...

Synthesis isn't quite universally bright. Jacob has his low EMS slide where he's comforting the grieving. Of course, it's balanced with Kasumi getting a happy ending only in Synthesis.

I wouldn't call retreating into one's own private electronic fantasy world a happy ending.  Disturbing and pitiful would be more like it.

[Karrie788]

Lizardviking wrote...

I am not denying that synthesis is the most "happy rainbows" ending.

The fact that synthesis is the "happy rainbows" ending is what I find repulsive.

Exactly. It makes no sense. It's completely backwards from what we've seen so far.  I really have a hard time understanding how Synthesis supposedly brings peace between all living beings (including Reapers!). Understanding others doesn't necessarily bring acceptance.

Modifié par Karrie788, 30 octobre 2012 - 10:09 .

[Gervaise]

In response to some of the above threads: "I understand the synthesis ending perfectly well." Mind you I did need to see the epilogue before the truth really struck home:

- All life including plants have been changed by the effects. Take a look at the leaves on the planet where the Normandy puts down. Quite apart from the fact that this is bonkers science, it means that you have altered evolution totally and permanently. When the kid was telling me of the effects, I thought he just meant the higher lifeforms that were already dependent on technology. Declaring that synthesis is inevitable in such cases much carry some validity but not every lifeform in the galaxy.

- The positive effects  you highlight above are still going to occur on Tuchunka, they will just take that bit longer. All endings show the Krogan planning a rebuild (well if you cured the genophage and have Wrex and Eve as leaders they do). As against the snowy above some non descript world, in destroy you have London rebuilt as before.

- Back in ME2 Mordin gave a lot of interesting reflections on what happens when creatures are advanced too fast and also what happens when you no longer have an incentive to advance. Plus he also commented about the Collectors "(various things).......replaced by tech, no soul , replaced by tech". He then went on to comment that he doubts you will find any art on the walls of a collector ship. EDI concentrates on the fact that the Reapers are helping to recover the glories of the past but what of new innovations and the achievements of currently primitive organics that have been halted in their natural advancement and forced onto a particular technological path?

- There is no such thing as a low EMS synthesis ending. I had sufficient EMS with the EC to access each of the endings including the Shepard breath scene. My synthesis slides showed the one with Jacob comforting someone. I thought it might be the reporter lady, someone else suggested it was one of the scientists, which makes more sense as they had worked on the Crucible, would appreciate what had happened more quickly than anyone else, and would know it was not something they designed into the device. Clearly therefore not everyone is thrilled by what has been done to them.

- the Intelligence never promised peace, just an end to the harvest, on its terms. It was Shepard who used the words peace. It is EDIs upbeat voiceover that makes it appear wonderful. Never forget, the Intelligence is still running the show. (Try imagining the voiceover with Harbinger's voice instead of EDI)

- all endings can be said to have a downside. With destroy there is likely to be a scramble for power and it is clear that the Citadel must now be permanently located over London because of the restored beam shown in the slide. With Control, the Quarians and Geth are no longer living in harmony on Rannoch. The Quarians still have their masks and the Geth are shown in a scene with Reaper and shadowy human figure in the background (implying that the Shepard consciousness now controls both Reapers and Geth) - God help anyone who gets on his/her wrongside. However, either of those seems preferable to synthesis for the reasons given above.

My preference is for Destroy because I do not accept the Catalyst's logic, have a mandate from my allies to destroy the Reapers and feel that their tyranny over the galaxy has gone on long enough. I am sorry for the effect on the Geth but essentially it is the fate of one artifical lifeform (who chose to download the Reaper code that condemns them) against that of every living organism in the galaxy. I love the complex diversity of life that I have encountered whilst travelling the galaxy. Think of the myriad of species we have on earth and then multiply it a millionfold, may be a billionfold. In one horrific act, all are transformed into a grotesque hybrid, with light bulbs for eyes (if they have them) and circuitry that many will not even have a use for. Give me natural evolution any day.

If the writers really prefer the synthesis ending, either they have not considered the implications of what they have imagined, or they understand it too well and think that it gives the greatest scope for a future distopia that a new hero will have to challenge.

Modifié par Gervaise, 30 octobre 2012 - 10:11 .

[spirosz]

Dat Utopia age, flawless.

[clennon8]

When examined in a vacuum, the concepts of synthesis and transhumanism are not inherently bad. At least, I don't think so.

But context matters.

The hundred hours leading up to the ending weren't just about shooting things. There were lessons being taught. Lessons about the Reapers and how they operate. About indoctrination. You were given notable examples of villains who were fooled into thinking they could control the Reapers or join with them. You had to put them down, the poor deluded fools.

Then, at the end, there was a pop quiz. It wasn't even all that subtle. The grand puppeteer of the Reapers tried to distract you from accomplishing your goal by offering up the same exact fantasies that TIM and Saren bought into.  The. Same. Exact. Ones.

Were you paying attention? Did you pass the test?  Or did you give in to the Reapers?

Modifié par clennon8, 30 octobre 2012 - 10:15 .

[Eterna]

clennon8 wrote...

When examined in a vacuum, the concepts of synthesis and transhumanism are not inherently bad. At least, I don't think so.

But context matters.

The hundred hours leading up to the ending weren't just about shooting things. There were lessons being taught. Lessons about the Reapers and how they operate. About indoctrination. You were given notable examples of villains who were fooled into thinking they could control the Reapers or join with them. You had to put them down, the poor deluded fools.

Then, at the end, there was a pop quiz. It wasn't even all that subtle. The grand puppeteer of the Reapers tried to distract you from accomplishing your goal by offering up the same exact fantasies that TIM and Saren bought into.  The. Same. Exact. Ones.

Were you paying attention? Did you pass the test?  Or did you give in to the Reapers?

No, I made them my ****es.

[ghost9191]

very first time. i wasn't confused or anything. i hated the endings , and was kinda like what the f*ck . but knew which was which , so shot that tube .

then did pick control and synthesis but that was purely to see if they were different . and hell yeah they were , one was blue and the other green

so answer to your question clennon8 , yes i did pass the test

and don't forget all the messages about advancing races before they are ready and what not

@Eterna5

that is tempting though . renegade control is win

can steal candy from kids and be all like ... 

Modifié par ghost9191, 30 octobre 2012 - 10:26 .

[Armass81]

Malanek999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Edit:
About the "earned" benefits? By whose standards? Who determines if, or when, something is "earned"? This kind of thinking is Protestant work ethic, it's very specific to a certain cultural substream of the western hemisphere. Why the hell is it less acceptable to get the same benefits as a gift?

I presume you were responding to me. I have no idea what "Protestant work ethic" is, what I said was in no way based on that. There are plenty of times this theme has come up within ME itself. The Krogan were uplifted before they were ready and it resulted in disaster. The Protheans meddled with the Asari and the Asari used it to gain a big advantage on the rest of the galaxy through deceipt and hypocrisy. The Reapers "gave" the Mass Relay technology to numerous cycles so that they would develop along the lines they wanted so they could be easily wiped out.

Not developing technology naturally removes innovation. It's a common theme of science fiction that sentient alien species should not be interfered with but left to develop naturally. Real history involves great civilisations start to falter when they stagnate with complacency rather than continue to strive and innovate.

I think youre right there, Malanek.

And yet people want to keep using the mass relays, as there was a huge uproar when they were destroyed in the original endings... While I saw an opportunity for the galaxy to develop on our own path, everyone else just kept cryying and saying "how hopeless it all was". A clear sign on how indoctrinated and dependent we were on the reapers tech.

Nope, we wanna keep the relays, we wanna keep using reaper tech. It doesnt matter...

Modifié par Armass81, 30 octobre 2012 - 10:39 .

[clennon8]

I was okay with the idea of the relays being burned out, actually. They would have been rebuilt within a century.

[jtav]

Precisely. What people really want to be free of I think, is the idea of an outside force guiding our development. Only Control has anything like that, and it's debatable there.

[Malanek]

Armass81 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Edit:
About the "earned" benefits? By whose standards? Who determines if, or when, something is "earned"? This kind of thinking is Protestant work ethic, it's very specific to a certain cultural substream of the western hemisphere. Why the hell is it less acceptable to get the same benefits as a gift?

I presume you were responding to me. I have no idea what "Protestant work ethic" is, what I said was in no way based on that. There are plenty of times this theme has come up within ME itself. The Krogan were uplifted before they were ready and it resulted in disaster. The Protheans meddled with the Asari and the Asari used it to gain a big advantage on the rest of the galaxy through deceipt and hypocrisy. The Reapers "gave" the Mass Relay technology to numerous cycles so that they would develop along the lines they wanted so they could be easily wiped out.

Not developing technology naturally removes innovation. It's a common theme of science fiction that sentient alien species should not be interfered with but left to develop naturally. Real history involves great civilisations start to falter when they stagnate with complacency rather than continue to strive and innovate.

And yet people want to keep using the mass relays, as there was a huge uproar when they were destroyed in the original endings... While i saw an opportunity for the galaxy to develop on our own path.

Nope, we wanna keep the relays, we wanna keep using reaper tech. It doesnt matter...

Not from me. I always agreed with Matriarch Aethyta (or whatever her name was).

Learn to build them yourselves or build new starship technology that bypasses the need for them entirely and opens up all sorts of new worlds for colonisation. Don't you see the problem of only ever being able to travel in the proximity of one of them?

Edit: I see you edited. I'll leave this though.

Modifié par Malanek999, 30 octobre 2012 - 10:39 .

[FOX216BC]

@CosmicGnosis after reading and seenig all of your last polls and topics...
oh, you little synthesis crusader you.

[xAmilli0n]

The ideas behind synthesis are fine. The golden age that follows is fine.

What is not fine is how Shepard jumping into the beam, causes the Crucible to enact these changes on the whole galaxy INSTANTLY (pretty much instantly).

Synthesis is fine. Synthesis via Crucible doesn't make sense.

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 30 octobre 2012 - 10:53 .