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So Synthesis is bad, no matter what we see or hear? *Updated*


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#101
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CosmicGnosis wrote...

Let's look at some pictures. All three slides are exclusive to the Synthesis ending.


"... to recover the greatness that was lost... and surpass it."


"We will reclaim our worlds... and the stars."


"... taking our first steps into a new and wonderful future, where organics and synthetics can coexist peacefully."

BSN, I want you to be absolutely clear with me. Do the majority of you believe that these slides should not be taken literally? That is, the slide are illusions, exaggerations, half-truths, etc.? There is absolutely nothing good about these slides? Is there something sinister or deceptive about them? The krogan really don't rebuild and improve their civilization? The quarians and geth really don't willingly coexist and rebuild Rannoch together?

No matter what we see or hear, Synthesis is a deception?

Nothing wrong with taking it at face value.  I believe that is the intent of the writers.  Victory, peace, harmony, whatever you want to call it.  Obviously a lot of members here disagree with the concept, understadably, but all we know for certain is what is shown, hence your uploaded pictures.  Everything else is up to the imagination.  Be consistent though! If you take the Synthesis ending at face value then you have to take all of the endings at face value.  Don't cherry pick.

You're not going to convince very many on the other side to see it your way, and you don't need any sort of justification either.  You could say that the ending choices/consequences have a little something for everyone, but not everything, by a long shot.  Those pretty pictures come at a price too, just like all of the other endings pay a price.

#102
The Anti-Saint

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Random Geth wrote...
 In Synthesis, you get "and then everything was great and we, like, totally all understood each other, and, like, y'know, totally made peace and transcended and stuff, man. It was groovy."


:lol::lol::lol:

Quote of the day, hippy magic and all....also in my sig for all to see.

Modifié par The Anti-Saint, 31 octobre 2012 - 03:08 .


#103
Malanek

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The Anti-Saint wrote...

Random Geth wrote...
 In Synthesis, you get "and then everything was great and we, like, totally all understood each other, and, like, y'know, totally made peace and transcended and stuff, man. It was groovy."


:lol::lol::lol:

Quote of the day, hippy magic and all....also in my sig for all to see.

Indeed. Turns out the Crucible was a giant bong. Who knew.

#104
Althix

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synthesis have only one goal. it's for joker to have sick relationship with a doll.
synthesis is one most stupid ending in entire game.

so i rather shoot them, you know - my right to destroy is greater than their right to live.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 31 octobre 2012 - 03:59 .


#105
3DandBeyond

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CosmicGnosis wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Is this aimed at something in particular? Like the belief that Synthesis is nothing but Reaper Indoctrination?


Not exactly, but many people simply don't trust Synthesis. They suspect that there is something fundamentally twisted about it, and that it can't possibly be as good as it seems.


The slides are super silly.  They indicate in spite of what Synthesis requires you to do and what it means, that people are super happy.  Play ME again or just remember what others said about what Synthesis does.  Listen to what EDI says about it.  Consider the story of the Rachni and Krogan, the genophage, and also consider that there were people in ME that didn't even want implants of any kind.

EDI says people are given knowledge.  That's advancement before it is earned and before people are "ready" for it.  This caused problems for the Krogan.  Tech is fully integrated with organic DNA (ok as described this is magic, plain and simple-how does that happen, galaxy wide and to every organic thing).  What tech is fully integrated?  Reaper tech?  And think about what that means.  Even if every being and every organic thing only got a single teeny tiny nanite, that's a lot of tech considering how much organic stuff exists in the galaxy.  There are also very likely to be beings that have no knowledge yet of this "war".  And unless all the relays are activated (if the relays are used to disperse this tech somehow), those people that exist beyond locked relays will not be synthesized.  But, this bears out another inconsistency-the reapers always shut down relays once they enter the galaxy (first thing they supposedly do), but for some reason they don't shut down the relays this time.

Then, synthesis also is explained as giving full understanding of organics to synthetics.  Ok, if all organics in the galaxy are altered to be a hybrid, organics no longer exist, so why do this?  Beyond that, as it's explained, that is giving synthetics (at least the geth) exactly what they did not want to have given to them.  They wanted to learn, to follow many different paths.  Synthesis creates a single path for all.  All knowledge and understanding from one viewpoint.  You can find corollaries that exist now in closed societies and even some more open ones-people learn things along certain paths.  But if today Bob was king of the world and able to give everyone full knowledge, it would be knowledge according to Bob.  Fallout 3 has a funny kind of example of this with the Republic of Dave.  It's not just what that knowledge is and where it comes from that's problematic, but it's also that this idea of supposedly knowing everything would lead to stagnation.  It's also the idea of who is giving out the tech (the kid, leviathan, someone else?) and understanding.

Furthermore, in EDI's narration she talks about possibly transcending death itself-which means a new idea of what supposedly everyone wants-immortality.  Don't see a problem with people being immortal and still breeding?  Ever hear of the Krogan or the Rachni?

The problem is also that synthesis is considered by the kid to be something everyone wants and that leads to perfection as well as the end of evolution.  He also thinks it's inevitable.  The basis for choosing it is so flawed (the logic for it needing to be a choice is as well as the idea that everyone wants to be perfected by tech and that it's the pinnacle of evolution somehow).  Could it happen?  Maybe, but not through evolution.  Does everyone want it?  No.  Is it inevitable?  No it is not.  The whole galaxy could disappear because of some travelling black hole before then.  How does the kid (an incredibly flawed "intelligence") come up with all this it's inevitable stuff?  According to who?  He's a product of the idiotic Leviathans who enthralled idiots that created this idea of inevitable killer synthetics by continually creating killer synthetics.  He thinks synthesis is super smart, but he's a moron.  He says it can't be forced, but doing something to someone's body without their permission is a definition of force.  This is all the basis for choosing it-force something that some moron AI thinks makes sense upon the whole galaxy using some unknown things to do that, with fundamentally flawed understanding of people and what they want.  It's substituting the will of one person based upon the explanation of what will happen for the will of an entire galaxy.  How can that turn out well? 

The slide shows are nothing more than an attempt to show people that the galaxy is not destroyed.  They were included because for one thing it was faster and cheaper to show silly slide shows, but along with the narration and cut scenes exist because in the original endings BW destroyed the galaxy.  They then claimed they did not mean that to happen and didn't know how fans got that idea.  So the epilogs are to show that it didn't.  They tried to make everything appear happy and IMO it makes it all appear silly.

#106
GreyLycanTrope

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I take the ending very literally, slides included. Still don't like synthesis.

#107
Fingertrip

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Synthesis seems like the most ideal and peaceful solution of them all.

Sorry, but I don't see any proofs that it's bad.

#108
Vigilant111

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The Twilight God said it best: "None of these happened in real time", these are visions, and reality rarely turns out to be expected

And like 3DandBeyond said, these slides carry ulterior motives for being included, and they do not quite explain the questions at hand, in fact, they prompted even more questions

Modifié par Vigilant111, 31 octobre 2012 - 01:51 .


#109
Karrie788

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Fingertrip wrote...

Synthesis seems like the most ideal and peaceful solution of them all.

Sorry, but I don't see any proofs that it's bad.

According to the slides, yes, it most likely is. And that's probably the reason why so many people, myself included, are even more creeped out by it. Honestly, I've been trying to wrap my mind around that ending, but it's so detached from everything we've been hearing during all three games that I just can't buy it. I simply don't buy that because people have "knowledge" and a new "DNA", people are simply going to accept that the gigantic machines that were destroying their worlds and killing their loved ones moments before want to help them now, so it's totally cool, let's all be buddies. I don't buy it. They still have feelings, they are still angry, bitter from the war. Javik is an example of that. Javik acting totally cool during the Memorial scene in the Synthesis ending was very OOC in my opinion.

As best, it looks silly (the Keiji/Kasumi slide... come on, really?), at worst, it's creepy. But again, I guess it's very personal what ending you prefer. I don't think anyone is right or wrong, really. A lot of it relies on speculation, so no one has universal truthé

#110
ATiBotka

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Yeah, Synthesis is bad.

#111
Tootles FTW

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If there was a Pink ending where Shepard sacrifices him/herself and every Reaper turns into a tamed unicorn and there are ending slides of our squad prancing into the sunset surrounded by double-rainbows (all the way across the sky!) would that also be an acceptable option? I say thee nay.

I don't care if Bioware says Synthesis works. That a cyber-ghost appears before me in the final five minutes of the series is bad enough. That he also tells me that he can magically fuse organics with synthetics via a beam of light and it will STOP ALL TEH BAD THINGS (ermahgerd!!) and it's totally cool, just jump in that beam right there...no. No. The biggest theme of the series was strength through diversity - a theme that even Javik reiterates by acknowledging that his cycle failed because everyone was too homogenized since the Protheans trampled all other cultures. Synthesis doesn't just contradict this theme, it tells you it was wrong and the Reapers were right all along...now we're just arguing over method (Synthesis is basically what the Reapers have been doing the entire time - minus the liquifying portion of the process).

#112
3DandBeyond

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The slides and even the narration are so much like photos from a friend's vacation. When I was a kid there was always someone in the neighborhood (usually one family) that went on trips and invited the whole neighborhood to see their vacation slideshow. The family that did this was really a stereotypical dysfunctional one (like the family in Arrested Development but less funny). You just knew they weren't having fun on vacation, but were all smiles in the slide show. ME3's slides are like that to me. Synthesis is just shown to be way happier than the others and there's no basis for this to be so. Silliness on top of magic.

#113
Vigilant111

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3DandBeyond wrote...

The slides and even the narration are so much like photos from a friend's vacation. When I was a kid there was always someone in the neighborhood (usually one family) that went on trips and invited the whole neighborhood to see their vacation slideshow. The family that did this was really a stereotypical dysfunctional one (like the family in Arrested Development but less funny). You just knew they weren't having fun on vacation, but were all smiles in the slide show. ME3's slides are like that to me. Synthesis is just shown to be way happier than the others and there's no basis for this to be so. Silliness on top of magic.


Are you accusing those slides for being pro-synthesis propaganda that only shows the positives and not the heartbreaks and the tears behind synthesis?! How dare you! *gasps

#114
Karrie788

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Tootles FTW wrote...

If there was a Pink ending where Shepard sacrifices him/herself and every Reaper turns into a tamed unicorn and there are ending slides of our squad prancing into the sunset surrounded by double-rainbows (all the way across the sky!) would that also be an acceptable option? I say thee nay.

At least I would have laughed my a** off to that ending. It would have been quite a sight. :lol:
"Friendship is magic!"

Tootles FTW wrote...

I don't care if Bioware says Synthesis works. That a cyber-ghost appears before me in the final five minutes of the series is bad enough. That he also tells me that he can magically fuse organics with synthetics via a beam of light and it will STOP ALL TEH BAD THINGS (ermahgerd!!) and it's totally cool, just jump in that beam right there...no. No. The biggest theme of the series was strength through diversity - a theme that even Javik reiterates by acknowledging that his cycle failed because everyone was too homogenized since the Protheans trampled all other cultures. Synthesis doesn't just contradict this theme, it tells you it was wrong and the Reapers were right all along...now we're just arguing over method (Synthesis is basically what the Reapers have been doing the entire time - minus the liquifying portion of the process).

Agree completely.

#115
3DandBeyond

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Tootles FTW wrote...

If there was a Pink ending where Shepard sacrifices him/herself and every Reaper turns into a tamed unicorn and there are ending slides of our squad prancing into the sunset surrounded by double-rainbows (all the way across the sky!) would that also be an acceptable option? I say thee nay.

I don't care if Bioware says Synthesis works. That a cyber-ghost appears before me in the final five minutes of the series is bad enough. That he also tells me that he can magically fuse organics with synthetics via a beam of light and it will STOP ALL TEH BAD THINGS (ermahgerd!!) and it's totally cool, just jump in that beam right there...no. No. The biggest theme of the series was strength through diversity - a theme that even Javik reiterates by acknowledging that his cycle failed because everyone was too homogenized since the Protheans trampled all other cultures. Synthesis doesn't just contradict this theme, it tells you it was wrong and the Reapers were right all along...now we're just arguing over method (Synthesis is basically what the Reapers have been doing the entire time - minus the liquifying portion of the process).


This exactly.  The kid has been trying to achieve it, from the first by putting his creators into a machine and creating the reapers.  I know people will say, "but the kid has nothing to do with the choices.  He didn't create them."  Ok, let's go with that as if it's true.  The kid still explains the choices and shows his bias to Shepard.  The explanations suck and the questions asked by Shepard are not the ones I wanted answered at all.  But the kid does more; he gives reasons as to why Shepard should make a choice.  Stupid, illogical ones, but his reasons. 

The choices are like some fragmented example of what the reapers have been doing, what the kid has been doing.  Control, Synthesis, and Destroy are all what the kid has been trying to achieve or trying to do.  It seems that the crucible merely acted like a prism and split the beam into 3 forms of light, 3 choices.  That means the choices are still the product of trying to solve a particular problem-the Leviathans and their thralls creating killer synthetics.  They have no bearing on what the galaxy is now doing.  I'm looking for a true yellow ending.  We have red, green, and blue.  Somehow, synthesis green is seen as midway between destroy and control, but that makes no sense.

#116
Norwood06

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CosmicGnosis wrote...

BSN, I want you to be absolutely clear with me. Do the majority of you believe that these slides should not be taken literally? That is, the slide are illusions, exaggerations, half-truths, etc.? There is absolutely nothing good about these slides? Is there something sinister or deceptive about them? The krogan really don't rebuild and improve their civilization? The quarians and geth really don't willingly coexist and rebuild Rannoch together?

No matter what we see or hear, Synthesis is a deception?


- no, take the slides literally.  Synthesis is not a deception. 
- there is plenty good about these slides.  Nothing sinister or deceptive about the slides. 
- Krogran do rebuild, per that slide.  Quarians & Geth live happily ever after together on Rannoch. 

I don't like Synthesis, but it's not a deception.  Synthesis is a unilateral transformation of all life, from single-cell organisms to all of the galactic civilizations.  Shep changes the essence of everyone in the universe. So when you question Synthesis, don't ask about that is true and what's a lie.  Ask:

- What if people didn't want to be changed?  Why should Shep get to forcibly change their basic biological make-up?
- What if I don't want all life to be half synthetic?  I personally found the idea creepy, and the green tint on everything in the epilogue was very off-putting. 
- What can you achieve in Synthesis that can't be achieved by other ends? My preference, control, still has the Krogan rebuilding plus the Quarians and Geth at peace.  To my mind, control loses out on the active participation of the Reapers in society.  I'd trade that for perserving organic life as is. 

#117
3DandBeyond

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Norwood06 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BSN, I want you to be absolutely clear with me. Do the majority of you believe that these slides should not be taken literally? That is, the slide are illusions, exaggerations, half-truths, etc.? There is absolutely nothing good about these slides? Is there something sinister or deceptive about them? The krogan really don't rebuild and improve their civilization? The quarians and geth really don't willingly coexist and rebuild Rannoch together?

No matter what we see or hear, Synthesis is a deception?


- no, take the slides literally.  Synthesis is not a deception. 
- there is plenty good about these slides.  Nothing sinister or deceptive about the slides. 
- Krogran do rebuild, per that slide.  Quarians & Geth live happily ever after together on Rannoch. 

I don't like Synthesis, but it's not a deception.  Synthesis is a unilateral transformation of all life, from single-cell organisms to all of the galactic civilizations.  Shep changes the essence of everyone in the universe. So when you question Synthesis, don't ask about that is true and what's a lie.  Ask:

- What if people didn't want to be changed?  Why should Shep get to forcibly change their basic biological make-up?
- What if I don't want all life to be half synthetic?  I personally found the idea creepy, and the green tint on everything in the epilogue was very off-putting. 
- What can you achieve in Synthesis that can't be achieved by other ends? My preference, control, still has the Krogan rebuilding plus the Quarians and Geth at peace.  To my mind, control loses out on the active participation of the Reapers in society.  I'd trade that for perserving organic life as is. 


I get what you're saying and this is about synthesis, but I really can't see control as being good either-you say that it loses out because the reapers participate in society and to me, that is the biggest negative.  I really tried to imagine if that is something I would do to people.  It is so much not about Shepard dying, but it's about what Shepard is doing to the galaxy.  It seems great that everything gets rebuilt, but the tone is ominous and it injects Shepard into flawed tech just as assuredly as Synthesis injects flawed tech into the whole galaxy (magical, no two ways about it).  It also means the galaxy must accept reapers and variants (things that were killing their planets) living in their midst.

With Synthesis we have no idea what tech is being forced into everyone's body and where the full understanding of organics that synthetics get and knowledge that organics get, comes from.  We still have no idea who created the crucible, so what tech, what knowledge, what understanding?  Unless I know that I must assume it's reaper tech (all tech in the galaxy is based on reaper tech anyway).  That's flawed tech, just as any tech created by inherently flawed organics is flawed.  Ever take your car to a mechanic and have them make the problem worse, or create a new problem?  Ever get a computer virus, have a computer break down, have it make odd mistakes?  How about this, ever hear of a computer error killing people or flawed tech causing deaths?  Do you really think it's a great idea to have this stuff fully integrate with people in their DNA or on a molecular level?  Someone created it and no one is perfect, no one can be perfect, so no tech is perfect.  It's all based upon something flawed.  So, by all means let's just think people can attain perfection by putting imperfection into their bodies.

Control is the external corollary to synthesis, but it's known flawed tech.  You are uploading Shepard's intelligence into tech (created by the Leviathans) that is where the kid exists.  The kid is fundamentally flawed and putting Shepard into that doesn't change that fact.  It's like taking a computer with a bad hard drive and warped motherboard and adding a new CPU and RAM-Shepard's thoughts and memories.  Do you think it will work better?

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 31 octobre 2012 - 02:26 .


#118
Jackal13th

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CosmicGnosis wrote...

Let's look at some pictures. All three slides are exclusive to the Synthesis ending.

Posted Image
"... to recover the greatness that was lost... and surpass it."

Posted Image
"We will reclaim our worlds... and the stars."

Posted Image
"... taking our first steps into a new and wonderful future, where organics and synthetics can coexist peacefully."

BSN, I want you to be absolutely clear with me. Do the majority of you believe that these slides should not be taken literally? That is, the slide are illusions, exaggerations, half-truths, etc.? There is absolutely nothing good about these slides? Is there something sinister or deceptive about them? The krogan really don't rebuild and improve their civilization? The quarians and geth really don't willingly coexist and rebuild Rannoch together?

No matter what we see or hear, Synthesis is a deception?



It depends on how yoy see it some like it some don't.

#119
Tootles FTW

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@3DandBeyond - Yea, I like Control more as an ominous, Renegade!Shep option. Imagine if we had a similar situation during WW2 where we enacted a beam that transformed all naz!s into non-aggressive mecha-naz!s. They won't kill you, but they have supreme power to patrol and enact "peace" over the Earth - including the millions and millions of people they've attempted to kill and whose families they've killed.

Yet another reason why the harmony-BS apparent in the Synthesis ending grosses me out - people would not just accept the presence of the Reapers following the horrors of their assault.

#120
Norwood06

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3DandBeyond wrote...

I get what you're saying and this is about synthesis, but I really can't see control as being good either-you say that it loses out because the reapers participate in society and to me, that is the biggest negative.  I really tried to imagine if that is something I would do to people.  It is so much not about Shepard dying, but it's about what Shepard is doing to the galaxy.  It seems great that everything gets rebuilt, but the tone is ominous and it injects Shepard into flawed tech just as assuredly as Synthesis injects flawed tech into the whole galaxy (magical, no two ways about it).  It also means the galaxy must accept reapers and variants (things that were killing their planets) living in their midst.

With Synthesis we have no idea what tech is being forced into everyone's body and where the full understanding of organics that synthetics get and knowledge that organics get, comes from.  We still have no idea who created the crucible, so what tech, what knowledge, what understanding?  Unless I know that I must assume it's reaper tech (all tech in the galaxy is based on reaper tech anyway).  That's flawed tech, just as any tech created by inherently flawed organics is flawed.  Ever take your car to a mechanic and have them make the problem worse, or create a new problem?  Ever get a computer virus, have a computer break down, have it make odd mistakes?  How about this, ever hear of a computer error killing people or flawed tech causing deaths?  Do you really think it's a great idea to have this stuff fully integrate with people in their DNA or on a molecular level?  Someone created it and no one is perfect, no one can be perfect, so no tech is perfect.  It's all based upon something flawed.  So, by all means let's just think people can attain perfection by putting imperfection into their bodies.

Control is the external corollary to synthesis, but it's known flawed tech.  You are uploading Shepard's intelligence into tech (created by the Leviathans) that is where the kid exists.  The kid is fundamentally flawed and putting Shepard into that doesn't change that fact.  It's like taking a computer with a bad hard drive and warped motherboard and adding a new CPU and RAM-Shepard's thoughts and memories.  Do you think it will work better?


Oh, there are *tons* of problems with Control. I agree with you, personally.  The catalyst took a reasonable directive, "preserve organic life so they keep giving us tribute" and came up with a bat sh*t crazy solution of Reaping.  Who knows what he'll do with Paragon Shep's directive to "defend the many & ensure everyone has a voice in their future."  The only hope is that reprograming Catalyst with Shep's mind may have helped fix the problem, but that's a reach.

But I don't really want to try to defend my preference here, all four choices have bad sides, but instead focus on possible legitimate objections to Synthesis, which OP wasn't seeing. 

Modifié par Norwood06, 31 octobre 2012 - 02:35 .


#121
jtav

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Catalyst gets replaced. You can see him fizzle out. AIShep is a new entity.

#122
FlyingSquirrel

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Bill Casey wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

These pictures are pretty much standard fair for societies that have eliminated free will...
You can skyrocket the standard of living, eliminate hate, poverty, discrimination, overpopulation, etc...

It's fundamentally how you create a utopian (dystopian) society...
Free will gets in the way of a lot of ****...


I assume you mean in other science fiction narratives? While that may sometimes be the case, I don't think every sci-fi utopia is actually a hidden dystopia. Star Trek, for example, plays its idealized future pretty straight - while there is still conflict, life seems to be a lot easier and more rewarding, and the Federation appears to be a free, open society.

I certainly don't consider Star Trek a utopia...


"Utopia" is too strong, yes, but it is certainly idealistic. There are still conflicts and even wars, but the Federation is still light years ahead of today's modern society when it comes to quality of life and peace between different races and cultures. All I'm saying is that there is no mind control or other coercion that "made" that happen in the Trek universe - humans, Vulcans, etc. built the Federation of their own accord.

#123
DoomsdayDevice

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Seeing as when organics are 'preserved' in Reaper form, their minds and memories will be preserved, the ending slides are IMO nothing more than 'Reaper Matrix' images made from the memories of those that are 'preserved' in Reaper form.

Those preserved in Reaper form 'live' inside a simulation that is made from their memories. They think their worlds are rebuilt by the Reapers, but it's just an illusion. The world they see is just the memories that have been preserved as well.

On Rannoch, when Shepard talks to the Reaper, it dies when you tell the Reaper that the species from which it was made were harvested thousands of years ago. Those preserved in the Reaper are not aware that they are dead. Once you remind them they are dead, the Reaper dies, as if the spell is broken.

This seems to suggest that all Reapers are victims of indoctrination, and that Harbinger is the one controlling them all. Which would fit with the idea that Harbinger is the Reaper AI.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 31 octobre 2012 - 03:48 .


#124
Wayning_Star

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Sorry Organics, it's not a matter of "Choices", it's a matter of when and where they're made. Apparently the MEU were asleep at the switch. That being on Mars and finding those easy pickings.. Now you're at the mercy of the catalyst. Don't like it? Too friggen bad.

Go Green!!

(hmm, that sound kind of familure,eh? I wonder why?!? ;)

#125
EagleScoutDJB

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Synthesis being bad is a matter of opinion, some people are OK with it and some people hate it. I think a better way to put it would be, no matter how much Bioware adds to the game they can't force people to like something they hate.