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[JBPBRC]

Estelindis wrote...

One could make the argument that, by reaching organic-synthetic unity, our thoughts could become linked in a kind of universal internet, and, that by understanding each other in this way, a genuine utopia would result. However, would this mean that people would lose the right to keep some things private? Would others interpret doing so as having something negative to hide? There are times when we aren't even happy with the things we think in our own minds; we can have an internal negative thought about someone or something but strive to present a positive face. But would that be possible if everyone was able to see everything we thought or felt? Not all our thoughts are pretty. There are times when understanding another person makes you hate them, not love them.

And thus began Mass Effect: Minority Report.

[Mr. Parker]

I've just completed the game for the first time ever. Destroy was the ending that made the most sense for me in terms of risks and rewards. I didn't like dooming the Geth or synthetic life, but it seemed the lesser evil out of all the options, as there were so many unknowns about controlling or synthesis, and especially as the boy seemed rather untrust worthy. Control seemed incredibly risky, and there was only one shot at ending the conflict for good. Synthesis seemed to go against everything the galaxy had been fighting against. At least destroy put the reapers down for good, and that was pretty much what all the races had come together for.

[Verit]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

-Draikin- wrote...

The problems with not only Synthesis but all of the Catalyst's choices is that they force the player to accept an outcome he/she wasn't looking for.

That's because Shepard is confronted with a cosmic problem that isn't relevant to him. The inevitability of organic extinction is something far larger than the Reapers. So you're right. Shepard, as well as all organics, are too small to appreciate the scope of the "problem". But Shepard can choose to not care about it.

You're correct, the problem isn't relevant to Shepard. In fact, the problem doesn't exist. You're saying it's inevitable, yet organic extinction never happened. The Leviathans were so stupid it boggles the mind. First of all they programmed a synthetic AI to prevent synthetics from destroying organic life, and gave it near unlimited power to achieve that goal. Why do that when they didn't even believe that they could potentially be destroyed by synthetics? Shepard asks that question and is basically told that the Leviathans were so powerful that they didn't even imagine the possibility of that happening. Are you kidding me? Talk about creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Modifié par -Draikin-, 02 novembre 2012 - 03:04 .

[Gurluas]

Synthesis does not take away free will, or make everyone Reaper slaves or take away individuality.
Synthesis integrates tech with organics, and makes synthetic understand the organics, because synthetics know how the organics works, synthetics will not longer rebel, and the organics know how synthetics work, being part synthetic, they will no longer try to eliminate them.

Hence a new solution is in place.
That is why I think synthesis is shown as the best possible ending, because despite what people thinks, it does not intrude on free will, is not overly risky like control, and it does not kill any innocents, in fact, it restores the innocents inside the Reaper to the galactic community.

Modifié par Gurluas, 02 novembre 2012 - 03:51 .

[Karrie788]

See, there's where I really can't understand the logic behind it all, and I welcome an explanation. Synthesis or not, I'm pretty sure people will still find reasons to wage wars anyway. They may understand each other, but that doesn't bring acceptance.

[Reorte]

Gurluas wrote...

Synthesis does not take away free will, or make everyone Reaper slaves or take away individuality.
Synthesis integrates tech with organics, and makes synthetic understand the organics, because synthetics know how the organics works, synthetics will not longer rebel, and the organics know how synthetics work, being part synthetic, they will no longer try to eliminate them.

Hence a new solution is in place.
That is why I think synthesis is shown as the best possible ending, because despite what people thinks, it does not intrude on free will, is not overly risky like control, and it does not kill any innocents, in fact, it restores the innocents inside the Reaper to the galactic community.

That's a load of nonsense. Do you honestly believe that not completely understanding each other will inevitably lead to the extinction of all organic life? It's a ludicrously far-fetched claim with nothing to back it up, as is understanding each other prevents it (it's not as if we don't have plenty of wars with other humans, is it?)

If you don't think that changing someone at an incredibly fundamental level isn't intruding on free will then heaven help you. And if you think doing that to every single living thing in the galaxy is less bad than the loss of a very small percentage of sentient beings then you scare me.

[Gurluas]

Understanding others brings acceptance. If you can truly understand others, you can see their viewpoints. There will still be conflicts, but it wont be the same kind of large scale conflicts, and the synthetics and organics will not have the massive block that forces them to wage war on each other.

As for why they won't hate the Reapers...It is because the Reapers are innocents now. The Reapers were slaves to the Catalyst, now everyone in the galaxy can feel the suffering of the Reapers, they can feel what they were forced to do, and that it wasn't them who willingly destroyed them. They feel the individual minds inside the Reapers, sure some may be against it, but with such a deep level of understanding, I think even diehards like Javik can see that the Reapers existing now, are not the Reapers controlled by the Catalyst.

And no, it doesnt intrude on free will, it intrudes on their right of choice perhaps, but they do have free will, the change was just forced upon them.

Modifié par Gurluas, 02 novembre 2012 - 03:58 .

[Karrie788]

Gurluas wrote...

Understanding others brings acceptance. If you can truly understand others, you can see their viewpoints. There will still be conflicts, but it wont be the same kind of large scale conflicts, and the synthetics and organics will not have the massive block that forces them to wage war on each other.

As for why they won't hate the Reapers...It is because the Reapers are innocents now. The Reapers were slaves to the Catalyst, now everyone in the galaxy can feel the suffering of the Reapers, they can feel what they were forced to do, and that it wasn't them who willingly destroyed them. They feel the individual minds inside the Reapers, sure some may be against it, but with such a deep level of understanding, I think even diehards like Javik can see that the Reapers existing now, are not the Reapers controlled by the Catalyst.

And no, it doesnt intrude on free will, it intrudes on their right of choice perhaps, but they do have free will, the change was just forced upon them.

So you're saying that every being in the galaxy, because he/she knows what's inside the Reapers' head now, is just going to forget the fact that they've been destroying their worlds, killing their loved ones and most likely ruining their lives? They still have feelings, they're not all completely reasonable, they can feel hatred. And I'm not trolling, I'm sincerely interested in the answer. Because that's one of my biggest problems with Synthesis. I just don't buy it. I can't see those people agreeing to work with the Reapers. Not all of them anyway. Javik wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be alone in that regard. Unless they're completely brainwashed.
At any rate I don't think the result is worth it.

[Gurluas]

Imagine if someone mind controlled an innocent boy to cut his own arms off and drink his own blodd, then mind controlled him to kill your family, then suddenly you felt all his suffering, all his regret,
You could feel that this boy was the biggest victim of them all, he never wanted to hurt you.

And now he seeks redemption and wants to amend for his mistakes. Would you kill him for something he didn't do out of mere unjustified retribution (Which it would be, as he never comitted the deed, the mind controller did)
I am sure the majority would be able to understand this, as they can feel every Reaper's emotion. The Reapers are free now.

Infinite peace is not possible, but peace between organic and synthetics would have been achieved, and the prevention of the total extinction has been achieved.

Modifié par Gurluas, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:07 .

[Reorte]

Gurluas wrote...

Understanding others brings acceptance. If you can truly understand others, you can see their viewpoints. There will still be conflicts, but it wont be the same kind of large scale conflicts, and the synthetics and organics will not have the massive block that forces them to wage war on each other.

As for why they won't hate the Reapers...It is because the Reapers are innocents now. The Reapers were slaves to the Catalyst, now everyone in the galaxy can feel the suffering of the Reapers, they can feel what they were forced to do, and that it wasn't them who willingly destroyed them. They feel the individual minds inside the Reapers, sure some may be against it, but with such a deep level of understanding, I think even diehards like Javik can see that the Reapers existing now, are not the Reapers controlled by the Catalyst.

And no, it doesnt intrude on free will, it intrudes on their right of choice perhaps, but they do have free will, the change was just forced upon them.

You can completely understand someone's motivation and life and be revolted by it. It doesn't completely bring 100% acceptance. There'e enough evidence in-game that synthetic and organic life are as capable of understanding each other as any member of a species is to another member of the same species. To go beyond that would completely require changing how people think.

People who suffered at the hands of the Reapers will still hate the Reapers. And there's no evidence to suggest that the Reapers weren't completely happy with what they were doing. They appear to demonstrate individual decision-making and appeared entirely happy with their actions. If they were slaves at all they were willing slaves trusted enough to operate on their own.

[Karrie788]

Gurluas wrote...

Imagine if someone mind controlled an innocent boy to cut his own arms off and drink his own blodd, then mind controlled him to kill your family, then suddenly you felt all his suffering, all his regret,
You could feel that this boy was the biggest victim of them all, he never wanted to hurt you.

And now he seeks redemption and wants to amend for his mistakes. Would you kill him for something he didn't do out of mere unjustified retribution?
I am sure the majority would be able to understand this, as they can feel every Reaper's emotion. The Reapers are free now.

No, I wouldn't. I don't think so anyway. Still, my family is dead, I'm pretty sure I would be pissed as hell. Not everybody would react reasonably anyway. We can feel hatred. It's irrational, but it's there. And in such a context, I just don't buy that people would agree with all of this. Maybe you can envision, but I can't. At least it makes you like the Synthesis ending, good for you. Personally it sickens me.

Modifié par Karrie788, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:09 .

[Gurluas]

The Reapers were slaves, and the Catalyst directed them. The Reapers were forced to mindlessly carry out their purpouse. Think of it as... Shackling an AI.

And many are irrational because they cannot understand.
We cannot see inside other's mind, we cannot feel the emotions of others.
Post-Synthesis, this is possible.

It's like...Everyone is connected and able to feel one another, similar to the Zhu's hope colonists, but at the same time, they also retain free will.

Modifié par Gurluas, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:10 .

[Karrie788]

Sorry, but that's not what I'm talking about. I don't care if the Reapers are innocent or not. I focus on the galaxy's races here, and I believe that no, understanding doesn't bring immediate and complete acceptance, because irrational feelings are in the way.

[Gurluas]

As I said, irrationality often comes from being unable to understand.
When they can understand everyone, they also understand the Reaper's suffering. The Reapers have suffered far more than them.

I think even Javik would not want to kill the innocent minds trapped inside the Reapers forced to carry out genocide for countless millenia against their will.

I also think that Synthesis makes unsentient things sentient, at least Husks...and some VI programs become sentient, such as Keiji in the greybox.

[Reorte]

Gurluas wrote...

The Reapers were slaves, and the Catalyst directed them. The Reapers were forced to mindlessly carry out their purpouse. Think of it as... Shackling an AI.

There's little to no evidence to back that up and a lot to suggest that the Reapers were entirely happy and complicit with what they were doing. It would've been massively safer for the Catalyst to create them to want to do what they did (unless it was as cack-handed as the quarians were, which considering its inability to say anything of sense is possible I suppose).

It's like...Everyone is connected and able to feel one another, similar to the Zhu's hope colonists, but at the same time, they also retain free will.

Wow, talk about an utterly vile violation of privacy.

[Gurluas]

Feeling one another, does not mean being able to pry in intimate thoughts and so on.
and no, Reapers are definitely mindcontrolled/forced.

Remember how they were built?, they were organic minds processed and fused into the reaper. The Reaper is essentially the organic equivalent of a Geth, instead of a million programs, it has a million minds.

None of those minds would ever have accepted to carry out the Reaper's acts unless indoctrinated or forced.
They are basically shackled to carry out those commands.

Modifié par Gurluas, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:18 .

[Karrie788]

Gurluas wrote...

As I said, irrationality often comes from being unable to understand.
When they can understand everyone, they also understand the Reaper's suffering. The Reapers have suffered far more than them.

I think even Javik would not want to kill the innocent minds trapped inside the Reapers forced to carry out genocide for countless millenia against their will.

I also think that Synthesis makes unsentient things sentient, at least Husks...and some VI programs become sentient, such as Keiji in the greybox.

I'm sorry. I see what you're saying, I understand your point of view, but I completely disagree. If I was in front of the killer of my family, my SO or whatever, I wouldn't care if he/she poured out his/her life to me and explained to me why he did what he did. Even if he/she had a good reason for it or didn't do it on purpose, I don't know, it would still be the person responsible for the death of someone I love. I would be pissed and hateful. Period.
Oh, and sorry again, but the Kasumi/Keiji slide was cringe-worthy to me.

I'm pretty sure Javik would be insanely angry. In fact I find that him being perfectly calm at the memorial scene to be one of the most OOC moments in the trilogy.

Anyway, I don't think either of us is going to convince the other. Still, it's interesting to read other points of view.

Modifié par Karrie788, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:20 .

[Gurluas]

Indeed...It is.
I just think that we cannot base this on how it would feel to have it be told. In Synthesis, they are literally FEELING it. Synthesis is not something which is easy to comprehend or justify, as none of us has tried to be connected to another organic, or to intimately feel the emotions and feelings of others. But I think it would be enough to incite understanding and at the very least grudging tolerance.

[Reorte]

Gurluas wrote...

Feeling one another, does not mean being able to pry in intimate thoughts and so on.

Still a gross violation of privacy.

and no, Reapers are definitely mindcontrolled/forced.

Evidence for that?

Remember how they were built?, they were organic minds processed and fused into the reaper. The Reaper is essentially the organic equivalent of a Geth, instead of a million programs, it has a million minds.

Nope, they turned people into mush and used that to build the Reaper somehow. Mulching people doesn't preserve minds. There'll be more of the original person's mind preserved in a husk.

None of those minds would ever have accepted to carry out the Reaper's acts unless indoctrinated or forced.
They are basically shackled to carry out those commands.

What minds?

You bring up the Zhu's Hope colonists. Shiala tells you that all the linked minds there let her resist indoctrination. So even if your brain could somehow survive being melted down, pumped through tubes, and then put back together (an idea as ridiculous as Synthesis itself) the resulting mass of minds would probably be rather hard to indoctrinate.

Modifié par Reorte, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:26 .

[Karrie788]

Gurluas wrote...

Indeed...It is.
I just think that we cannot base this on how it would feel to have it be told. In Synthesis, they are literally FEELING it. Synthesis is not something which is easy to comprehend or justify, as none of us has tried to be connected to another organic, or to intimately feel the emotions and feelings of others. But I think it would be enough to incite understanding and at the very least grudging tolerance.

And that's where my problem is. I can't buy it. It's completely out of reality, so distanced from what I've seen and been told so far that I can't understand it. The only rational explanation I have in my head when I look at these people is that they're all somehow brainwashed. It's confusing as hell and, well, creepy.
But again, it works for you; that's great. Destroy and Control pretty much satisfied me anyway. Thanks for the discussion, it was interesting.

Modifié par Karrie788, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:30 .

[MegaSovereign]

On my death bad I'd be begging for Synthesis.

[Gurluas]

To be honest, if real life achieved something similar, many of our problems would be gone.

Though I'd make it a free choice.

Modifié par Gurluas, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:35 .

[MegaSovereign]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

On my death bad I'd be begging for Synthesis.

You know you just reminded me of something I thought about yesterday.
If pick Synthesis, is TIM really dead?

Reaper code doesn't simply die, Reapers that are considered "dead" still function.

I don't think Synthesis brings people back to life. Otherwise we'd be seeing Saren and TIM and Anderson holding hands.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:49 .