Aller au contenu

Photo

So Synthesis is bad, no matter what we see or hear? *Updated*


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
257 réponses à ce sujet

#201
MegaSovereign

MegaSovereign
  • Members
  • 10 794 messages

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

On my death bad I'd be begging for Synthesis.


You know you just reminded me of something I thought about yesterday.
If pick Synthesis, is TIM really dead?

Reaper code doesn't simply die, Reapers that are considered "dead" still function.


I don't think Synthesis brings people back to life. Otherwise we'd be seeing Saren and TIM and Anderson holding hands.


Synthesis combines Synthetics and Organics to create a new DNA.
Wouldn't the Synthetic part of TIM that still functions combine with the Organic part?



That synthetic part isn't living in the first place...

#202
Gurluas

Gurluas
  • Members
  • 50 messages

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

On my death bad I'd be begging for Synthesis.


You know you just reminded me of something I thought about yesterday.
If pick Synthesis, is TIM really dead?

Reaper code doesn't simply die, Reapers that are considered "dead" still function.


I don't think Synthesis brings people back to life. Otherwise we'd be seeing Saren and TIM and Anderson holding hands.


Synthesis combines Synthetics and Organics to create a new DNA.
Wouldn't the Synthetic part of TIM that still functions combine with the Organic part?



Well...The husk seemed to regain sentience.
It is possible that TIM would reactivate *shrug*

#203
Reorte

Reorte
  • Members
  • 6 601 messages

Gurluas wrote...

Well...The husk seemed to regain sentience.
It is possible that TIM would reactivate *shrug*

Urgh, bad luck for anyone recently dead and buried but not long enough to have thoroughly decomposed.

#204
Guest_A Bethesda Fan_*

Guest_A Bethesda Fan_*
  • Guests

MegaSovereign wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

On my death bad I'd be begging for Synthesis.


You know you just reminded me of something I thought about yesterday.
If pick Synthesis, is TIM really dead?

Reaper code doesn't simply die, Reapers that are considered "dead" still function.


I don't think Synthesis brings people back to life. Otherwise we'd be seeing Saren and TIM and Anderson holding hands.


Synthesis combines Synthetics and Organics to create a new DNA.
Wouldn't the Synthetic part of TIM that still functions combine with the Organic part?



That synthetic part isn't living in the first place...


That is debatable.

#205
T-Raks

T-Raks
  • Members
  • 823 messages
Honestly, I don't care about the slides in any ending. The choice my Shepard makes has nothing to do with the slides. It has to do with what my Shepard fights for. Synthesis has nothing to do with it. Rainbows or not.

#206
ybz

ybz
  • Members
  • 4 messages
As a warning, this is very long. You probably will not want to read all of it, but this is my point-by-point take down on why the synthesis ending is utter nonsense in my opinion.

For the record, I like the synthesis ending for the reason that it's a "feel-good" denouement. Even if your choices throughout the game didn't affect things, you know that in the end, ultimately, good things happened and peace is achieved. Hooray!

Then, as soon as I start to actually think, the whole suspension of disbelief collapses on itself.


[1] First, the idea that you can somehow reliably fuse synthetics with organic genetic code is absurd at best. There is no way that this could be done to every single organism in the galaxy, each species having its own unique genetic code, without killing some (all?). Certainly, mental and bodily functions would be drastically altered. Biology is a very, very complex system. Everything is inter-linked, and even modifying a single gene (or protein conformation) can have off-target or secondary effects far downstream of the molecule itself. Biological systems are "engineered" by time and selection, and frankly, even minute disruptions to the structure of something like DNA would be catastrophic to how it works right now. It's just unreasonable to think that the Star-Child could compute and design a new DNA that also works perfectly, while ensuring that ALL other bodily functions continue to work. For every species. That's preposterous. 

[2] Next, we have to consider a plot fallacy. The Crucible was, as far as we know, designed entirely as a weapon against the Reapers; the "destroy" capability. How does it, when linked to the Citadel/Star-Child, inexplicable "open new possibilities", as the Star-Child himself termed it? The plot hole that is the Crucible is described as a giant power source.. so how precisely does it allow for the dissemination of a wave that can alter everything's DNA. Destroy is somewhat believable; a destructive signal is sent throughout the galaxy. Control as well; a new set of instructions and commands. Synthesis? Not so much, unless the green wave is mutagenic, but that cannot be controlled to the already impossibly precise levels needed to achieve synthesis as depicted. Not to mention it also works in the inverse capacity of bringing to "life" synthetics, while simultaneously discriminating them from common non-sentient machines and tools like space ships. 

Detractors may argue, the Crucible IS just an energy source. The "synthesis" capability is built into the Citadel, as it is presumed to be the Reapers' ultimate goal. Very well, but in this case, if this capability already existed, why couldn't the Reapers build their own power source? And furthermore, why did the Reapers try to destroy the plans for the Crucible in past cycles, if it was capable of producing their desired outcome? Because of the hand-waving explanation that organics weren't "ready"? Well, if you keep forcing them to start over every 50k years, I'm not sure they'd ever be ready. The reason implied that Shepard was "ready" is that (s)he successfully reached the Citadel, which has no makes no biological sense, especially since human DNA is not necessarily similar to that of any other species. 

[3] This leads me to another point regarding DNA. All terrestrial species are carbon-based, and feature A, T, G, and C as the fundamental nucleotides. Is this likely to be true of any other species in the Mass Effect universe? Probably not. In fact, Prothean DNA is said to be quad-stranded. I'm not even saying that every species has different DNA (like humans vs dogs); every species isn't even guaranteed to use the same genetic monomers! But let's just presume every species in the galaxy ends up with the exact same DNA post-Crucible. 

[4] The biggest problem is, I just don't believe synthesis would work to achieve galaxy peace. I'm not even concerned with the morality with forcing species-wide genetic mutations for conformity. Everything living on Earth today shares the same genetic base, but there's predation and parasitism. Even amongst humans, within the same species, we wage war, kill, and commit horrific crimes. This has nothing to do with our genetic homogeneity, but rather contrivances and wants derived from the thinking mind. As long as people will want, they will devise ways to take, and from this arises conflict. So unless the Crucible took away the free will of everything in the galaxy, there's no reason it would prevent warfare. The Krogan and the Turians may still fight. The remaining Batarians will still be pirates. War will still exist because the primary reason for conflict was not an issue of "type of life". Case in point: Didn't the geth and the quarians achieve peace and a pact to rebuild Rannoch together?

Now, I recognize the primary issue is specifically the conflict between synthetics and organics (I find it curious that the Leviathans/Star Child are not concerned with the far more prevalent conflicts between organics and organics... call it evolution? Then, what's wrong with synthetics in the first place?). But synthesis just makes it worse. Now, everyone is syntho-organic. You've stopped the conflict between synthetics and organics forever, because there are none left. That's great, but what about the inevitable future conflicts between syntho-organics and other syntho-organics? There is a false insinuation that after synthesis, the galaxy has universal understanding of everyone else. Even assuming a common syntho-DNA, peace is NOT guaranteed. And what if people develop future synthetics; will that not still lead to conflict, only this time between synthetics and syntho-organics? What about the inevitable rise of new organic life? This ultimately achieves nothing!

[5] Also, the glowing circuits don't make sense. The change is implied to be molecular. You wouldn't glow or have discrete circuits. Looks cool, though, I guess. 
Ultimately, it feels to me like this is the choice they wanted you to pick. It's the "everyone is happy" ending, but frankly, it asks you just to accept that peace has been achieved, without giving a satisfying reason as to why. It also contradicts the powerful message of unity in the face of adversity, to a fight against a common enemy. You spend the whole game overcoming differences and recruiting everyone to your cause, just so we can be told they key to peace is conformity. 


TL;DR:
[1]Biology is too complex to rewrite for every species, let alone on the fly.
[2]How the hell did the Crucible even manage to do that?
[3]Post-Crucible, everyone's DNA should still be different, but even if it wasn't...
[4]Conflict will still exist. And new organics and synthetics may still arise later. So nothing was solved.

Modifié par ybz, 03 novembre 2012 - 02:39 .


#207
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 190 messages
An interesting post, ybz. I'll give a short reply, but I suggest that you read the OP of my Synthesis compendium thread, because I've dealt with most of those objections there.

(1) "Making everyone a hybrid with some kind of new DNA analogue" isn't on the table any more since the Extended Cut. There are not just technological but logical problems with that concept, based on the fact that organics and synthetics are based on mutually exclusive design principles. I think that's why the EC changed things from "hybrids with a new DNA" into "organic species will get an 'altered matrix' to integrate technology" and "synthetics will gain full understanding of organics". Note that there is a contradiction between that and the "new DNA" line that still exists. In the case of contradictions, I feel justified to choose the option I like best, and of course the hybrids with "new DNA" concept is nonsense so I choose the other.

(2) There is a contradiction between "The Crucible is little more than a power source" and "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities". That doesn't just affect the Synthesis ending, it affect the whole ending scenario. Again, in the case of contradictions, I feel justified to choose the option I like best, and I prefer the Synthesis to originate in the Crucible, because that gives agency to the species that built it into the Crucible (see my Synthesis compendium thread for a justification of that) instead of this divinity-analogue we meet on the Citadel.
Also, the Crucible was not necessarily designed to destroy the Reapers, it was designed to end the harvesting cycle. That many people can only imagine the latter to come to pass through the former is of no consequence.

(3) I would hesitate to make assumptions about what technology can and cannot do. Sufficiently advanced technology looks like magic, remember? I agree that the scale and intricacy of the change threatens suspension of disbelief, but it's not exactly a logical problem, it's a problem of adhering to genre conventions.

(4) As I said to others: Synthesis is not designed to bring universal peace. It is not designed to do away with war. It is designed to solve one specific problem: that of synthetics out-evolving organics to the point that the latter become extinct. It is meant to preserve aspects of the organic life form, nothing more. The post-Synthesis galaxy will experience a generally bright future, but that's not to say that there won't be new horrors along with the new wonders, and that there will be no conflict.

(4a) Yes, there is a thematic disconnect between making peace on Rannoch and the ending scenario. It is not a contradiction though. No malice is assumed for the extinction scenario posited by the Catalyst. Details in my Synthesis compendium thread and especially JShepppp's very insightful thread "Why the Catalyst's logic is right II".

(5) I see the circuit patterns and the eyes as an artistic representation of invisible changes. Bioware said that there are elements in the endings which are not meant to be taken literally. This is one of them.

TL;DR:
Synthesis has some thematic and logical problems, but some of them are superficial, and the others can be done away with with a little interpretation. In the case of contradicitons (there are two), just choose the side you like best.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 novembre 2012 - 08:45 .


#208
inko1nsiderate

inko1nsiderate
  • Members
  • 1 179 messages

Ieldra2 wrote...
(2) There is a contradiction between "The Crucible is little more than a power source" and "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities". 


Is it?  That is like saying there isn't a difference between steam power and widely available fusion power.  Point of fact: changing power sources has lead to some of the largest paradigm shifts in human history.  Just sayin'.

I'm also skeptical of the other contradiction being a flat out contradiction.  I think people are just taking the DNA thing a little too literally when it is clearly just a way of quickly conveying that the change being made is intrinsic rather than superifical.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 03 novembre 2012 - 09:25 .


#209
Guest_Arcian_*

Guest_Arcian_*
  • Guests

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Let's look at some pictures. All three slides are exclusive to the Synthesis ending.

Posted Image
"... to recover the greatness that was lost... and surpass it."

Posted Image
"We will reclaim our worlds... and the stars."

Posted Image
"... taking our first steps into a new and wonderful future, where organics and synthetics can coexist peacefully."

BSN, I want you to be absolutely clear with me. Do the majority of you believe that these slides should not be taken literally? That is, the slide are illusions, exaggerations, half-truths, etc.? There is absolutely nothing good about these slides? Is there something sinister or deceptive about them? The krogan really don't rebuild and improve their civilization? The quarians and geth really don't willingly coexist and rebuild Rannoch together?

No matter what we see or hear, Synthesis is a deception?

No, it isn't. It would, however, be completely useless had not EDI and the geth died in Destroy, as the practical results of Synthesis (organic-synthetic peace, knowledge, limitless life) will come to pass in time without the need to augment the entire galaxy. The real insult here is that they wrecked the most thematically appropriate ending in order to shove their Super MAC and Casey's dream of utopia down people's throats.

#210
Clayless

Clayless
  • Members
  • 7 051 messages
OP I think the main reason why people harp on about it being a lie is because of the IT.

Now that that fanon has faded to all but the most rabid believers, most people have come to accept that Synthesis isn't a deception.

#211
SpamBot2000

SpamBot2000
  • Members
  • 4 463 messages

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

OP I think the main reason why people harp on about it being a lie is because of the IT.

Now that that fanon has faded to all but the most rabid believers, most people have come to accept that Synthesis isn't a deception.


No, the main reason is the unbelievably stupid nature of synthesis. It is very hard to wrap one's head around the proposition that presumably qualified writers seriously thought it would be a super idea.

#212
TheRealJayDee

TheRealJayDee
  • Members
  • 2 952 messages

Seival wrote...

Most people who dislike Synthesis just don't have proper understanding of this ending.


*sigh* Posted Image

Ieldra2 wrote...

No ending is made to be liked by everyone. Bioware knew that a large percentage of people wouldn't like Synthesis, and they made the endings divisive on purpose (though they may have underestimated the intensity of the reaction).


I would really, really dearly love to have some of the ME3 folks talk about their expectations towards the reception of the endings, both original and EC.

#213
SpamBot2000

SpamBot2000
  • Members
  • 4 463 messages

TheRealJayDee wrote...

I would really, really dearly love to have some of the ME3 folks talk about their expectations towards the reception of the endings, both original and EC.


This will probably happen eventually. Looking forward to it myself.

#214
Bill Casey

Bill Casey
  • Members
  • 7 609 messages

SpamBot2000 wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

I would really, really dearly love to have some of the ME3 folks talk about their expectations towards the reception of the endings, both original and EC.


This will probably happen eventually. Looking forward to it myself.


Casey Hudson: "I didn’t want the game to be forgettable, and even right down to the sort of polarizing reaction that the ends have had with people–debating what the endings mean and what’s going to happen next, and what situation are the characters left in. That to me is part of what’s exciting about this story. There has always been a little bit of mystery there and a little bit of interpretation, and it’s a story that people can talk about after the fact."

Modifié par Bill Casey, 03 novembre 2012 - 08:02 .


#215
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 190 messages

SpamBot2000 wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

I would really, really dearly love to have some of the ME3 folks talk about their expectations towards the reception of the endings, both original and EC.


This will probably happen eventually. Looking forward to it myself.

I hope so. I'm still confused about why they didn't see this sh*tstorm coming. I mean, the original endings weren't just "polarizing", they were almost universally reviled. I don't think they really appreciated or expected this kind of "not forgettable".

#216
CosmicGnosis

CosmicGnosis
  • Members
  • 1 594 messages
Updated the first post.

#217
Hey

Hey
  • Members
  • 4 080 messages
CosmicG.. Are you ready to openly champion synthesis yet? I've noticed to becoming more clear on your preference as of late. Is it time?

#218
Indy_S

Indy_S
  • Members
  • 2 092 messages
Even though a Utopia is portrayed, it feels wrong. It seems jarring to me that nobody reacts to Synthesis in a negative way in-universe. Otherwise, yeah, it's fine.

Modifié par Indy_S, 06 janvier 2013 - 10:04 .


#219
CosmicGnosis

CosmicGnosis
  • Members
  • 1 594 messages

Festae9 wrote...

CosmicG.. Are you ready to openly champion synthesis yet? I've noticed to becoming more clear on your preference as of late. Is it time?


I've always loved the results of Synthesis. I just hate the space magic ("organic energy" makes me cringe) and the forced application of it upon the entire galaxy.

#220
CosmicGnosis

CosmicGnosis
  • Members
  • 1 594 messages

Indy_S wrote...

Even though a Utopia is portrayed, it feels wrong. It seems jarring to me that nobody reacts to Synthesis in a negative way in-universe. Otherwise, yeah, it's fine.


EDI says this if you sabotaged the genophage cure:

"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures... and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease..."

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 06 janvier 2013 - 10:20 .


#221
Hey

Hey
  • Members
  • 4 080 messages

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Festae9 wrote...

CosmicG.. Are you ready to openly champion synthesis yet? I've noticed to becoming more clear on your preference as of late. Is it time?


I've always loved the results of Synthesis. I just hate the space magic ("organic energy" makes me cringe) and the forced application of it upon the entire galaxy.


So I'm the catalyst CosmicG and tonight you have to choose.  Tonight.  You have to dive off your lilly pad.  What is it?  What do you choose, tonight?

#222
Indy_S

Indy_S
  • Members
  • 2 092 messages

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Even though a Utopia is portrayed, it feels wrong. It seems jarring to me that nobody reacts to Synthesis in a negative way in-universe. Otherwise, yeah, it's fine.


EDI says this if you sabotaged the genophage cure:

"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures... and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease..."


I like that quote except for the "Unlimited access to knowledge" part. It might just be my pessimism but it seems like there is nowhere to go from there.

#223
CosmicGnosis

CosmicGnosis
  • Members
  • 1 594 messages

Festae9 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Festae9 wrote...

CosmicG.. Are you ready to openly champion synthesis yet? I've noticed to becoming more clear on your preference as of late. Is it time?


I've always loved the results of Synthesis. I just hate the space magic ("organic energy" makes me cringe) and the forced application of it upon the entire galaxy.


So I'm the catalyst CosmicG and tonight you have to choose.  Tonight.  You have to dive off your lilly pad.  What is it?  What do you choose, tonight?


Well, if you start using somewhat clever technobabble instead of references to vitalism, I'll probably dive into the beam. Oh, and could you also not let Synthesis affect everyone? Like, let them get used to the idea first?

Or better yet: JUST TAKE YOUR REAPERS AND LEAVE US ALONE. :pinched:

#224
Hey

Hey
  • Members
  • 4 080 messages

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Festae9 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Festae9 wrote...

CosmicG.. Are you ready to openly champion synthesis yet? I've noticed to becoming more clear on your preference as of late. Is it time?


I've always loved the results of Synthesis. I just hate the space magic ("organic energy" makes me cringe) and the forced application of it upon the entire galaxy.


So I'm the catalyst CosmicG and tonight you have to choose.  Tonight.  You have to dive off your lilly pad.  What is it?  What do you choose, tonight?


Well, if you start using somewhat clever technobabble instead of references to vitalism, I'll probably dive into the beam. Oh, and could you also not let Synthesis affect everyone? Like, let them get used to the idea first?

Or better yet: JUST TAKE YOUR REAPERS AND LEAVE US ALONE. :pinched:


GAME OVER

#225
CosmicGnosis

CosmicGnosis
  • Members
  • 1 594 messages

Festae9 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Festae9 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Festae9 wrote...

CosmicG.. Are you ready to openly champion synthesis yet? I've noticed to becoming more clear on your preference as of late. Is it time?


I've always loved the results of Synthesis. I just hate the space magic ("organic energy" makes me cringe) and the forced application of it upon the entire galaxy.


So I'm the catalyst CosmicG and tonight you have to choose.  Tonight.  You have to dive off your lilly pad.  What is it?  What do you choose, tonight?


Well, if you start using somewhat clever technobabble instead of references to vitalism, I'll probably dive into the beam. Oh, and could you also not let Synthesis affect everyone? Like, let them get used to the idea first?

Or better yet: JUST TAKE YOUR REAPERS AND LEAVE US ALONE. :pinched:


GAME OVER


SO BE IT.

But you know, I suppose making Synthesis hard to swallow was kind of a good idea. Otherwise, everyone would choose it. Of course, BioWare could have done some smarter things with it, and Destroy is waaaay too popular compared to the others.