86 réponses à ce sujet

[Maclimes]

SirGladiator wrote...

Merrill never died in any of my playthroughs either. She should definitely return like Leliana. Leliana was a beloved character, thats why she returned. Obviously Merrill isnt as awesome as Leliana, but she's cool and should definitely be back regardless of what a few players might've done. Others, like Anders, who a LOT of people killed, thats different, he probably should stay dead, but the ones that most everybody loves should return, that would obviously include Merrill.

Please tell me your sig is a reference to the 1985 Matthew Broderick/Michelle Pfeifer movie.

[xsdob]

Merril, new host for justice.

[Urzon]

I puppy dies everytime someone misuses the word "retcon"...

Be a hero, and please learn the correct definition of retcon today!

[DPSSOC]

Urzon wrote...

I puppy dies everytime someone misuses the word "retcon"...

Be a hero, and please learn the correct definition of retcon today!

Retcon - Retroactive Continuity - Any new information that changes or adds to previously established continuity.  Learning Varric has a horrible fear of the dark would be a retcon because it's something we're learning now that's applied to past events; it would mean that all the time in the Deep Roads, despite what he says or how he acts, he was absolutely terrified and puts those moments in a new light.  A character who was established as dead, like Leliana or in this case Merrill, showing up alive is also a retcon.

The difference between a good retcon, which most people don't complain about, and a bad retcon is how they're worked in.  If Merrill is alive in DA3 regardless of whether or not she survived your playthrough and the devs take the "it didn't happen" approach, that's a bad retcon.  If they go the Wynne route (possessed by a spirit/demon to keep her alive) or someone found her bleeding out in the street and healed her that's not.

[Urzon]

DPSSOC wrote...

 A character who was established as dead, like Leliana or in this case Merrill, showing up alive is also a retcon.

Leliana was never established as dead. Everyone just assumed she was, since she was left dieing in the ruined temple. While it hasn't been established how she survivied, it has been established that she did survive that encounter with the Warden.

Therefore, not a retcon. Unless Merrill's death has been WoG'ed 100%, the same can be said for her as well.

[DPSSOC]

Urzon wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

 A character who was established as dead, like Leliana or in this case Merrill, showing up alive is also a retcon.

Leliana was never established as dead. Everyone just assumed she was, since she was left dieing in the ruined temple. While it hasn't been established how she survivied, it has been established that she did survive that encounter with the Warden.

Therefore, not a retcon. Unless Merrill's death has been WoG'ed 100%, the same can be said for her as well.

Merrill and Leliana were established as dead the same way everyone else in the games was established as dead (reduced to 0 hp, fell to the ground, looted, no post fight survival convo ala Zevran).  Using this logic everyone and everything we fight in DA2 could come back to life and it wouldn't be a retcon.  They died, it's just a matter of how they came back(if they bring Merrill back).

[fchopin]

I don’t want Merril in DA3, i don’t care if she is dead or alive.

If she is back in DA3 then give us the option to tell her to get lost from the first time we see her. I don’t want her in my team.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

No. I killed her in 2 out of 3 of my playthroughs and i never want to see her again. She was worst character in DA, i would rather have Isolde as companion.

Modifié par Chaos Lord Malek, 31 octobre 2012 - 10:41 .

[Urzon]

DPSSOC wrote...

Merrill and Leliana were established as dead the same way everyone else in the games was established as dead (reduced to 0 hp, fell to the ground, looted, no post fight survival convo ala Zevran).  Using this logic everyone and everything we fight in DA2 could come back to life and it wouldn't be a retcon.  They died, it's just a matter of how they came back(if they bring Merrill back).

No, we assume they are dead. The only people that can establish a 100% total death of a character is Mr. Gaider or his fellow writers, and unless one of them wants to devote an unhealthy amount of time establishing a R.I.P. list of all the dead npcs on the forums; none of us can be 100% sure that some of the supposedly dead characters might not make a return.

And yes, by this logic everyone and everything can come back and try and kill us in the future. Is it possible? Yes. Thedas is a land filled with very powerful magics, and unknown things we haven't even see or heard of. Is it likely? Hell no. All the writers would have to go insane for them to even think of writing something like that, and the company would be insane to publish it.

Modifié par Urzon, 31 octobre 2012 - 11:37 .

[Terrorize69]

DPSSOC wrote...

Urzon wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

 A character who was established as dead, like Leliana or in this case Merrill, showing up alive is also a retcon.

Leliana was never established as dead. Everyone just assumed she was, since she was left dieing in the ruined temple. While it hasn't been established how she survivied, it has been established that she did survive that encounter with the Warden.

Therefore, not a retcon. Unless Merrill's death has been WoG'ed 100%, the same can be said for her as well.

Merrill and Leliana were established as dead the same way everyone else in the games was established as dead (reduced to 0 hp, fell to the ground, looted, no post fight survival convo ala Zevran).  Using this logic everyone and everything we fight in DA2 could come back to life and it wouldn't be a retcon.  They died, it's just a matter of how they came back(if they bring Merrill back).

Your party members and even the PC can be reduced to zero HP and fall to the ground dead, yet they stand up when no enemies are nearby.

[fchopin]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Your party members and even the PC can be reduced to zero HP and fall to the ground dead, yet they stand up when no enemies are nearby.

It’s called magic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ACtually, what I'm worried abotu is how ANYONE survived the dreamer quest...you know...where you are warend that getting killed in the Fade = death and where you can kill half of your party only for them to dance around happily as if nothing happened.

[Terrorize69]

fchopin wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Your party members and even the PC can be reduced to zero HP and fall to the ground dead, yet they stand up when no enemies are nearby.

It’s called magic.

That's right! The same magic that allows Leliana and Merrill to stand up after the PC has left the scene

Retcon and death don't go together when in a world filled with magic, spirits, demons and gods. The rules are different then say ME.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ACtually, what I'm worried abotu
is how ANYONE survived the dreamer quest...you know...where you are
warend that getting killed in the Fade = death and where you can kill
half of your party only for them to dance around happily as if nothing
happened.

If I were to take a guess, I'd say the anicent Dalish ritual had safeguards that would protect those it sent in.

Modifié par Terrorize69, 31 octobre 2012 - 01:19 .

[Wulfram]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Your party members and even the PC can be reduced to zero HP and fall to the ground dead, yet they stand up when no enemies are nearby.

Party members are knocked out, not dead.  They never get their head chopped off or fall apart like they're made out of lego.  They don't get their Codex updated to say that they're dead.

[Terrorize69]

Wulfram wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Your party members and even the PC can be reduced to zero HP and fall to the ground dead, yet they stand up when no enemies are nearby.

Party members are knocked out, not dead.  They never get their head chopped off or fall apart like they're made out of lego.  They don't get their Codex updated to say that they're dead.

There you go then, some people are simply knocked out and not dead. I'm not so sure about that, I've seen party members suffer finishers before who then get up anyway.

Also a large part of the Codex is written by the PC from their POV.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ACtually, what I'm worried abotu
is how ANYONE survived the dreamer quest...you know...where you are
warend that getting killed in the Fade = death and where you can kill
half of your party only for them to dance around happily as if nothing
happened.

If I were to take a guess, I'd say the anicent Dalish ritual had safeguards that would protect those it sent in.

Doesn't that make it pointless to warn you about dying in the Fade then?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Wulfram wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Your party members and even the PC can be reduced to zero HP and fall to the ground dead, yet they stand up when no enemies are nearby.

Party members are knocked out, not dead.  They never get their head chopped off or fall apart like they're made out of lego.  They don't get their Codex updated to say that they're dead.

I'd liek to remind everyone that the "head chop of critical finisher" is nothing but a random animation. A product of mechanics, not fluff.
Trying to use it as an argument is pointless (especailly since you can kill her wihout that animation playing).

As far as the world is concerned, her head wan't ever chopped off.
Now if it was a special CUTSCENE, then things would be different....

[Terrorize69]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ACtually, what I'm worried abotu
is how ANYONE survived the dreamer quest...you know...where you are
warend that getting killed in the Fade = death and where you can kill
half of your party only for them to dance around happily as if nothing
happened.

If I were to take a guess, I'd say the anicent Dalish ritual had safeguards that would protect those it sent in.

Doesn't that make it pointless to warn you about dying in the Fade then?

It would, if Marethari was an anicent elven and knew about such ritual fully. Instead she only knew parts of it in a tome, with most knowledge being lost in the ages.

Either that or she wasn't confident in her ability to preform the ritual perfectly,  so warned them just incase.

[Knight of Dane]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ACtually, what I'm worried abotu is how ANYONE survived the dreamer quest...you know...where you are warend that getting killed in the Fade = death and where you can kill half of your party only for them to dance around happily as if nothing happened.

Because they don't get killed, their dream does, kinda.

Remember, Feynriel is a dreamer which means he can enter the fade physically, which is what you are retreiving in the fade, hsi physical body, while you and your companions are only there in dreams while your physical bodies sleep in Ariani's house.

[Janus198]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
She's not the only one who can be killed in DA2, you know. Maybe you should make a thread for every single killable character next.

Why should i do this?
Is there any DA 2 character who is so difficult to kill like Merrill? No, i don´t think so.

[Giltspur]

I imagine she'll stay dead in those imports.  Bioware probably wants to limit their use of the resurrection fairy to really special cases as opposed to doing it willy nilly.

[Tootles FTW]

The only time I want to see the dead walking In Dragon Age is in a zombie situation.

I wonder why you're specifically concerned with Merrill, though, unless you think her character would or should have some sort of significant presence in DA:I?

[Wulfram]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'd liek to remind everyone that the "head chop of critical finisher" is nothing but a random animation. A product of mechanics, not fluff.
Trying to use it as an argument is pointless (especailly since you can kill her wihout that animation playing).

As far as the world is concerned, her head wan't ever chopped off.
Now if it was a special CUTSCENE, then things would be different....

It's a random animation that doesn't apply to squad members, because they aren't dead, and shouldn't apply to anyone else that isn't intended to be dead.

The point is not the precise method of their death, but that the game has given us clear and unequivocal information that they are in fact dead.

edit:  I don't have any great problem with retcons if they're done for a useful purpose.  But acting like it's totally reasonable to treat what we're shown on the screen as total lies bugs me.

Modifié par Wulfram, 31 octobre 2012 - 03:09 .

[Janus198]

Tootles FTW wrote...
I wonder why you're specifically concerned with Merrill, though, unless you think her character would or should have some sort of significant presence in DA:I?

Let see she is a popular character and LI. And i think her story arc isn´t done. 
Why not use her again? (not as companion)
The only problem about this is. She can die. But that not so easy like Anders. It reminds me a lot of the Leliana case,
where you only can kill her during the Urn of Sacred Ashes Quest  under certain conditions.
But in DA 2 Leliana got a plot armor and was immortal. So why not use the same trick for Merrill again?

Modifié par Janus198, 31 octobre 2012 - 03:30 .

[Tootles FTW]

^Because it's unnecessary to force her into games where she was killed? I understand you wanting more of your favorite companion/LI - I'd have liked the same with Fenris - but I think our hopes were squashed when they announced that plans for a DA2 Expansion were cancelled in favor of focusing on DA:I.

Instead of turning her into some sort of plot critical DA:I character that could potentially "ruin" her, why not keep her as a cameo? It wouldn't interfere with anyone's playthroughs where she was dead, and for the people that kept her alive it'd be a nice little acknowledgement....a la Alistair & Zevran in DA2.