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[Steelcan]

Eterna5 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
Your Shepard being a dick also doesn't make it void. 

. The geth are no more alive than my computer I'm writing this on. Same goes for EDI. Imitating life is different from being alive

Well look at you, arbitarily defining what life is. You must be a God. You should pick Control. 

. Defining characteristics of life, 1. Made of cells. 2. Evolves. 3. Reproduces. 4. Respiration of some kind. 5.Nutrition. 5. Sensitivity to change. 6. Excretion of wastes.  The geth do not fulfill these requirements.

Defining characteristics of Organic life. 

. Life. There is no such thing as synthetic life.

[Argolas]

Eterna5 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Deadly genocide spaceships. Always watching. And with a leader you don't understand.

Leader of everything =/= Guardian for the many?

This isn't Renegade control man. 

Partly headcanon, partly logic. Do you doubt Javik would choose to fight?

One casualty kind of pales in comparrison to the mass genocide in Destroy. 

First one was a misunderstanding. It is the reaper's leader you don't understand.
Holoshep leads the reapers. People do not understand Holoshep, but the reapers are still here. It is kind of... intimidating, I suppose?

Do you know everything about your government? Does not understanding everything that goes on there make you terrified for your life everyday?

We do not know where the world is going with all these economical and environmental crises, we really can't do much about it and neither do we fully understand what those who are in charge do. So yes, sometimes it is a little terrifying.

But if I do not want my government anyomore and enough people agree, I can tell them in the next election and they have to go. Now try telling Holoshep to leave...
And I feel a lot better since I know that my government is not capable of destroying all life in the galaxy (although the galaxy is only Earth by now).

[Eterna]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Deadly genocide spaceships. Always watching. And with a leader you don't understand.

Leader of everything =/= Guardian for the many?

This isn't Renegade control man. 

Partly headcanon, partly logic. Do you doubt Javik would choose to fight?

One casualty kind of pales in comparrison to the mass genocide in Destroy. 

First one was a misunderstanding. It is the reaper's leader you don't understand.
Holoshep leads the reapers. People do not understand Holoshep, but the reapers are still here. It is kind of... intimidating, I suppose?

Do you know everything about your government? Does not understanding everything that goes on there make you terrified for your life everyday?

I think the situation is slightly different considering the Reapers were just annihilating everything in their path without mercy, and now they're very suddenly under the control of a holographic representation of Shepard. So I think it's pretty reasonable to believe a lot of people would be intimidated by something that has the capability to kill eveyone very easily, and is commanding those which expressed the motive to want to do exactly that.

But you're gvernment also has the power to kill you very easily too. They could do it right now, and nobody would know. 

 Regardless, I'm sure the intimadating factors of the reapers would fade over time once people realized they have no interest in harvesting them. 

[Syroel13]

Padok Wilks: Commiting genocide to stop genocide just ensures that nobody is left alive.
-Why I dont choose destroy. The geth fought and finally became free and independent and EDI finally gains understanding. I will not take that from them. This is not that black and white.

My shepard is ME. I play as him, his actions are determiend by me, how he looks, who he loves, how he fights, and what he simply does are all determined by me. If i want him to be the gaurdian of the galaxy, I trust that he will do what I will do.

Synthesis gives sythetics and organics what they want. But it does feel like forced evolution. I love the outcome of it. But I dont feel im allowed to make THAT big of a choice.

[Eterna]

Steelcan wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
Your Shepard being a dick also doesn't make it void. 

. The geth are no more alive than my computer I'm writing this on. Same goes for EDI. Imitating life is different from being alive

Well look at you, arbitarily defining what life is. You must be a God. You should pick Control. 

. Defining characteristics of life, 1. Made of cells. 2. Evolves. 3. Reproduces. 4. Respiration of some kind. 5.Nutrition. 5. Sensitivity to change. 6. Excretion of wastes.  The geth do not fulfill these requirements.

Defining characteristics of Organic life. 

. Life. There is no such thing as synthetic life.

In this games universe there is. 

[Eterna]

Argolas wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Deadly genocide spaceships. Always watching. And with a leader you don't understand.

Leader of everything =/= Guardian for the many?

This isn't Renegade control man. 

Partly headcanon, partly logic. Do you doubt Javik would choose to fight?

One casualty kind of pales in comparrison to the mass genocide in Destroy. 

First one was a misunderstanding. It is the reaper's leader you don't understand.
Holoshep leads the reapers. People do not understand Holoshep, but the reapers are still here. It is kind of... intimidating, I suppose?

Do you know everything about your government? Does not understanding everything that goes on there make you terrified for your life everyday?

We do not know where the world is going with all these economical and environmental crises, we really can't do much about it and neither do we fully understand what those who are in charge do. So yes, sometimes it is a little terrifying.

But if I do not want my government anyomore and enough people agree, I can tell them in the next election and they have to go. Now try telling Holoshep to leave...
And I feel a lot better since I know that my government is not capable of destroying all life in the galaxy (although the galaxy is only Earth by now).

America has enough nuclear weapons to level the world. 

[Steelcan]

Eterna5 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
Well look at you, arbitarily defining what life is. You must be a God. You should pick Control. 

. Defining characteristics of life, 1. Made of cells. 2. Evolves. 3. Reproduces. 4. Respiration of some kind. 5.Nutrition. 5. Sensitivity to change. 6. Excretion of wastes.  The geth do not fulfill these requirements.

Defining characteristics of Organic life. 

. Life. There is no such thing as synthetic life.

In this games universe there is. 

. You cannot prove that they are alive.  You can program a computer to say it is alive, but that doesn't make it true.  -Just to clear something up, I view the synthetics as self aware and rational, but not alive like organic life.

[The Night Mammoth]

Eterna5 wrote...

But you're gvernment also has the power to kill you very easily too. They could do it right now, and nobody would know.

The point being that not a single member of my government wants to, whilst it's only Shepard and her undefined amount of control over the Reapers standing between them and everyone in the galaxy being vaporized. 

The Catalyst had control over the Reapers, and yet they were still all arrogant, merciless and sadistic f*cks, employing horrendous and needlessly painful ways of completing their tasks. 

Regardless, I'm sure the intimadating factors of the reapers would fade over time once people realized they have no interest in harvesting them. 

If there's going to be a problem, it's most likely going to happen sooner, rather than later. 

[Bill Casey]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
Hey man, I can choose Synthesis if you want me to. I like the song.

www.youtube.com/watch

I like the song too...
It's quite... mysterious... denotes secrecy...


I like all of the ending songs...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 31 octobre 2012 - 03:23 .

[Legion of 1337]

Syroel13 wrote...

Padok Wilks: Commiting genocide to stop genocide just ensures that nobody is left alive.
-Why I dont choose destroy. The geth fought and finally became free and independent and EDI finally gains understanding. I will not take that from them. This is not that black and white.

My shepard is ME. I play as him, his actions are determiend by me, how he looks, who he loves, how he fights, and what he simply does are all determined by me. If i want him to be the gaurdian of the galaxy, I trust that he will do what I will do.

Synthesis gives sythetics and organics what they want. But it does feel like forced evolution. I love the outcome of it. But I dont feel im allowed to make THAT big of a choice.

Ultimately Sheppard is a static brick who only shows emotions that you want him to show, so Sheppard is like a badass, inspiring, ultra-awesome version of the player. So, he does whatever the player feels they would do in the same situation. If you think you could responsibly handle the Reapers, even with your brain converted into an AI, then by all means take a crack at it.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
Well look at you, arbitarily defining what life is. You must be a God. You should pick Control. 

. Defining characteristics of life, 1. Made of cells. 2. Evolves. 3. Reproduces. 4. Respiration of some kind. 5.Nutrition. 5. Sensitivity to change. 6. Excretion of wastes.  The geth do not fulfill these requirements.

Defining characteristics of Organic life. 

. Life. There is no such thing as synthetic life.

In this games universe there is. 

. You cannot prove that they are alive.

The game pretty much tells you.

You can program a computer to say it is alive, but that doesn't make it true.

What if a computer is programmed to allow it to emotionally, logically, and independently contemplate the idea itself? 

 -Just to clear something up, I view the synthetics as self aware and rational, but not alive like organic life.

So it's a semantic difference, at best.

[SNascimento]

A good choice.

[Steelcan]

The game also tells you that the Reapers are really our friends. I reject that notion. As for your second point, when does any AI in ME show emotion? Legion doesn't, EDI comes close, but to me it looks like an imitation of life rather than actual life

Modifié par Steelcan, 31 octobre 2012 - 03:35 .

[CosmicGnosis]

Now here's something to ponder. My Shepard is mostly Paragon, and I want the Illusive Man to realize that he's indoctrinated. Therefore, I have to choose anti-Control dialogue options.

Does this make my Shepard a hypocrite? From his perspective, the new information he gains from the Catalyst changes his understanding of the situation. He basically has to admit that Control is the only way to end the war in a non-violent and non-intrusive way.

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Now here's something to ponder. My Shepard is mostly Paragon, and I want the Illusive Man to realize that he's indoctrinated. Therefore, I have to choose anti-Control dialogue options.

Does this make my Shepard a hypocrite? From his perspective, the new information he gains from the Catalyst changes his understanding of the situation. He basically has to admit that Control is the only way to end the war in a non-violent and non-intrusive way.

. You don't know Control is possible until you meet Casper.  All of a sudden it is perfectly feasible? Not the point....

No he is not a hypocrite because he is saying what he thinks is true at the time

[Legion of 1337]

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Now here's something to ponder. My Shepard is mostly Paragon, and I want the Illusive Man to realize that he's indoctrinated. Therefore, I have to choose anti-Control dialogue options.

Does this make my Shepard a hypocrite? From his perspective, the new information he gains from the Catalyst changes his understanding of the situation. He basically has to admit that Control is the only way to end the war in a non-violent and non-intrusive way.

. You don't know Control is possible until you meet Casper.  All of a sudden it is perfectly feasible? Not the point....

No he is not a hypocrite because he is saying what he thinks is true at the time

The problem is that the dialogue sounds absolutist, rather than saying "it COULD be a good idea, but you, TIM, are not fit to control the Reapers". If Sheppard could concede to tha fact that Control would be a good idea in theory, but resist it because he doesn't trust the Illusive man, picking control would make more sense.

[Steelcan]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...
Now here's something to ponder. My Shepard is mostly Paragon, and I want the Illusive Man to realize that he's indoctrinated. Therefore, I have to choose anti-Control dialogue options.
Does this make my Shepard a hypocrite? From his perspective, the new information he gains from the Catalyst changes his understanding of the situation. He basically has to admit that Control is the only way to end the war in a non-violent and non-intrusive way.

. You don't know Control is possible until you meet Casper.  All of a sudden it is perfectly feasible? Not the point....
No he is not a hypocrite because he is saying what he thinks is true at the time

The problem is that the dialogue sounds absolutist, rather than saying "it COULD be a good idea, but you, TIM, are not fit to control the Reapers". If Sheppard could concede to tha fact that Control would be a good idea in theory, but resist it because he doesn't trust the Illusive man, picking control would make more sense.

. The only in game evidence of Control's feasibility is the research data from Sanctuary, which is never mentioned again....

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The game also tells you that the Reapers are really our friends. I reject that notion.

I don't remember us being told that and your rejection is irrelevant. 

As for your second point, when does any AI in ME show emotion? Legion doesn't,

Regret.

EDI comes close,

She does, several times. Pride, love, loyalty, disgust, protectivness. 

but to me it looks like an imitation of life rather than actual life

Looks like more semantics to me. What's the distinction? 

Our emotions are predefined electrical signals in our brains triggered by certain stimuli. It's the same for a synthetic except it happens in a processor instead of an organic organ. 

[spirosz]

I've liked all your threads, so props to you for figuring out what you want out of the ending.

[The Night Mammoth]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Now here's something to ponder. My Shepard is mostly Paragon, and I want the Illusive Man to realize that he's indoctrinated. Therefore, I have to choose anti-Control dialogue options.

Does this make my Shepard a hypocrite? From his perspective, the new information he gains from the Catalyst changes his understanding of the situation. He basically has to admit that Control is the only way to end the war in a non-violent and non-intrusive way.

Yes. 

And stupid, for letting the Catalyst change his understanding of the situation. 

[Steelcan]

1. Catalyst, basically spells it out. 2. Legion doesn't even comment on the living quarters for the kids at Pragia. 3. Again, she never really does. She always rationalizes it or has to change her programming for it to happen. 4. Our emotions are subject to experiences we have had. Synthetics not so much

Modifié par Steelcan, 31 octobre 2012 - 03:46 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

1. Catalyst, basically spell it out.

So it was more hyperbole than any sort of factual point.

No, the Catalyst does not tell you the Reapers are your friends.

2. Legion doesn't even comment on the living quarters for the kids at Pragia.

Don't care. He expresses regret at having lied to Shepard twice during the Rannoch arc.

3. Again, she never really does. She always rationalizes it or has to change her programming for it to happen.

I'm pretty sure humans often try to rationalize and explain their emotions too. I know I do. 

4. Our emotions are subject to experiences we have had. Synthetics not so much

So EDI doesn't feel love for Joker because of their partnership throughout the story, doesn't feel loyalty toward Shepard because you don't just treat her like a machine, doesn't feel disgust over what the Reapers are doing on Earth because she has an fondness for organics, and doesn't feel protective of the crew inside the Normandy because they have accepted her as one of their own?

How would you explain the emotions EDI feels? They certainly aren't preprogrammed, she was shackled and her creators had no intention of her being in the situation you find her in. 

[xAmilli0n]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Now here's something to ponder. My Shepard is mostly Paragon, and I want the Illusive Man to realize that he's indoctrinated. Therefore, I have to choose anti-Control dialogue options.

Does this make my Shepard a hypocrite? From his perspective, the new information he gains from the Catalyst changes his understanding of the situation. He basically has to admit that Control is the only way to end the war in a non-violent and non-intrusive way.

Congrats on picking your ending.

As to your question here, I can see a pure paragon being in conflict, but if he sees it is the only way to stop the reapers and allow the galaxy to develop on its own terms...he would take the risk.

[CosmicGnosis]

xAmilli0n wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Now here's something to ponder. My Shepard is mostly Paragon, and I want the Illusive Man to realize that he's indoctrinated. Therefore, I have to choose anti-Control dialogue options.

Does this make my Shepard a hypocrite? From his perspective, the new information he gains from the Catalyst changes his understanding of the situation. He basically has to admit that Control is the only way to end the war in a non-violent and non-intrusive way.

Congrats on picking your ending.

As to your question here, I can see a pure paragon being in conflict, but if he sees it is the only way to stop the reapers and allow the galaxy to develop on its own terms...he would take the risk.

Yeah, people are giving me a hard time about that. I've really tried to figure out a way to prevent Shepard from getting involved in galactic affairs.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Eterna5 wrote...

America has enough nuclear weapons to level the world. 

And more than one person in charge of government with check and balances to ensure they don't use those weapons for that very reason. There's also China and Russia they have the same power. The three nations keep each other in check, mutual destruction and all. Reapers don't have checks and balance. Only one person is in charge, and there's nothing holding that person back save shepard's memories, and given how Catalyst 1.0 interpreted his preserve all life objective, that's not comforting.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 31 octobre 2012 - 04:03 .