354 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Denial? That "broken, worthless AI" orders you to die by A, B or C or Game Over. And you do. It's broken and worthless, and it's still the boss of you. You don't seem all that stoopid, so why don't you see it? It's a powerful psychic mechanism.

Orders? He doesn't order anything. Just tells you what the options are. It doesn't have the capability to choose for itself.

If snything's the boss, it's the situation itself.

And how does that make things any better?

[hiraeth]

AlanC9 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Denial? That "broken, worthless AI" orders you to die by A, B or C or Game Over. And you do. It's broken and worthless, and it's still the boss of you. You don't seem all that stoopid, so why don't you see it? It's a powerful psychic mechanism.

Orders? He doesn't order anything. Just tells you what the options are. It doesn't have the capability to choose for itself.

If snything's the boss, it's the situation itself.

To me, it's like a bad vacation story. After months of anticipating and packing and preparing yourself for a beach vacation, you arrive at Sunny Island expecting to check-in to the nice hotel that you reserved a long time ago. The person manning the front desk tells you, "Due to reasons that you wouldn't even begin to understand, we are no longer able to give you the room you reserved. However, we can offer you either (a) the porta pottie down the street, ( a cardboard box with a blanket, or © that pile of rocks outside."

You're right, the person at the front desk isn't *ordering* me to pick any of those choices, but that doesn't make the situation any less sh*tty. Furthermore, I didn't get the room that I reserved/was led to believe I would get, and I didn't get a good reason as to why, so I have every right to be upset/complain and request that I be given my room back.

Modifié par MassEffectFShep, 03 novembre 2012 - 05:47 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

To be philosophical, seeing BioWare fancies that. The series lost its soul. While cliche, we came to expect Shepard by those definitions. He or she could transcend the impossible no matter the obstacle. This was readily apparent throughout the series; Shepard was the driving force that made the impossible, possible. Our expectations going into ME3 were no different than before. We were going to challenge the impossible and rise above it.

Except... that never happened.

Instead, when we reached the impossible. It remained impossible. We were told these are the only solutions and Shepard nodded along. We "won" because the Reapers allowed us to. In that moment, all flairs of adrenaline and expectations were snuffed out. Ironically, the Extended Cut drove this point with the Refusal choice.

Our victory was hollow and meaningless. That's when and why the ending failed.

[paul165]

Arcian wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

magnetite wrote...

I personally believe society is going downhill when every game or film must have a cliche Hollywood ending (action packed or happy ending with you and your LI). 

Mass Effect ALREADY WAS cliche Hollywood stuff.  Go replay the other two games.  I'm serious.

I'm not opposed to non-traditional narratives, but one does not simply change tone and style in the last five minutes of a lengthy epic.

For example, ever read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle?  It's a really depressing story about how this one immigrant worker's life gets worse and worse and worse.  He loses his job, his kids die, and eventually he winds up wandering the countryside bitter and peniless.

BUT THEN SUDDENLY HE GOES TO A SOCIALIST RALLY AND EVERYTHING IS MAGICALLY OKAY
BECAUSE SOCIALISM IS AWESOME!

Greetings, sudden toneshift.  Are you trying to make a point?

So yeah, an otherwise grim and gritty story with a fluffy bunnies ending is just as obnoxious.  I've read plenty of grim and gritty books with soul-crushingly downeriffic endings and loved the crap out of them.  I still choke up when I think about All Quiet on the Western Front.  Damn good book!

THE POINT: Consistency is important!

Consistency is not only important, it is everything. Without it, the plot thread gets torn up to all hell.

Yes related to that for me is the feeling you didn't really win in any meaningful way the galaxy survived because Casper gave up for reasons that make no sense. For me the whole of ME3 was one, long, tedious exercise in futility and then the Reapers give up and you die anyway!

Talk about shoot the shaggy dog.

[Maxster_]

ld1449 wrote...



The ending is still crap. People are settling for crap that was already half rendered in the development. By and large, its assumed that the EC DLC was done a month after the announcement, just held back for two aditional months (which they used to work on Leviathan, which was not a planned DLC either) in order to compete with Skyrim since they'd announced that they would be releasing dawn guard around the same time.

The first DLC to be released was supposed to be Omega. This is believed because there were files already in the vanilla game, which meant a good chunk of Omega was already finished.

With the ending backlash they've had to postpone Omega thrice, once for the EC to stop the financial bleed, Once for Leviathan to "foreshadow" the ending for anyone that hadn't yet beaten the game (around 43 percent of people who bought the game had beaten it by that point if I'm not mistaken), and now again in october because Microsoft most likely had a full roster with all these releases at the end of the month.

So essentially, they did the bare minimum for people , and some are praising it like its the gift of the gods.

The EC was a DLC done as much on the cheap as possible. It wasn't even fully compressed, taking up the limit 2G when, fully compressed its barely 1.2 and most of those are in the ending slides, which were EACH made as  FULL movie rather than actual slides that would have saved a ****load of space.

Wrex led didn't cure the genophage? Full movie.

Wrex led and cured the genophage? Full movie

Wreave led and Cured the Genophage? Full movie

Wrex led and cured the genophage? Saved Quarians and Geth? Full movie.

Wrex led and cured the genophaage saved Quarians and killed Geth? Full movie.

The combinations go ON and ON and ON.

OF COURSE THE ****ING THING TOOK UP A GIG WITH NO ONE KNOWING WHAT THE HELL COULD BE SO LARGE!!!!

This is not even including the full movies done for Synthesis with everyone glowing.

So yeah. I hardly count the Extended cut as a Godsend.

It was given grudgingly, and not even well done at that.

Yeah, they inflated size, to give excuses about dlc's size limit.
And created massive plohole with teleporting Normandy and others. And teleporting Normandy was easily avoidable, showing how exactly they care.

[Maxster_]

AlanC9 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Denial? That "broken, worthless AI" orders you to die by A, B or C or Game Over. And you do. It's broken and worthless, and it's still the boss of you. You don't seem all that stoopid, so why don't you see it? It's a powerful psychic mechanism.

Orders? He doesn't order anything. Just tells you what the options are. It doesn't have the capability to choose for itself.

If snything's the boss, it's the situation itself.

Sure, not orders.
And when Shepard tries to set his own terms - everyone dies.
Sure, not forced at all

And of course, Catalyst is able to choose for himself. He is sentient, and he already made such choice when wiped out Leviathans(with thralls). There just no way to force him to change his decision(his new "solutions" to non-extistant problem), only unconditional surrender to his will.

Modifié par Maxster_, 03 novembre 2012 - 07:20 .

[SpamBot2000]

AlanC9 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Denial? That "broken, worthless AI" orders you to die by A, B or C or Game Over. And you do. It's broken and worthless, and it's still the boss of you. You don't seem all that stoopid, so why don't you see it? It's a powerful psychic mechanism.

Orders? He doesn't order anything. Just tells you what the options are. It doesn't have the capability to choose for itself.

If snything's the boss, it's the situation itself.

Is that so? Why not pick nothing and see what happens?

[Nightwriter]

AlanC9 wrote...

 Well, I won't bother to quote that nstar post again, since it's been repeated enough. But it does bring to mind why I
didn't have a big problem with the ending.

I've always seen Shep as someone who would face the unpleasant truths and do the things that others can't or won't do. So, the galaxy is trapped in a cycle brought on by an AI following bad premises to an idiotic conclusion? Yep, that sucks.... so, what can be done about it? While arguing with the Catalyst might have been entertaining, there's no reason to think it would be any more persuadable than Sovereign was. ( Would ten minutes of circular dialogue with he Catalyst have made the ending better, or worse?)

Which leaves using the Crucible. Using that is hardly "bowing down" to that broken, worthless AI. What he thinks and wants aren't of any concern.

Which raises the question.... why did I feel this way about the ending, rather than nstar's way. Any guesses?

I think people who use the "debating with it would have been useless" argument are kind of missing the point.

Whether or not the Catalyst would have stroked its chin philosophically and said "hmm, your words have merit" is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that the most important points get some kind of representation -- that we don't lose our voice in the final moment of truth. So far the only ending where they get representation is the one where the entire galaxy dies.

The Catalyst's response to this doesn't really matter. If we end up pulling some kind of Kirk-esque mind whammy on the robot, and out-argue it, fine. If it refuses to hear us, and we end up needing to blow it up and go home, fine.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 03 novembre 2012 - 08:32 .

[silverexile17s]

Arcian wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Consistency is not only important, it is everything. Without it, the plot thread gets torn up to all hell.

Yes related to that for me is the feeling you didn't really win in any meaningful way the galaxy survived because Casper gave up for reasons that make no sense. For me the whole of ME3 was one, long, tedious exercise in futility and then the Reapers give up and you die anyway!

Talk about shoot the shaggy dog.

+1

+20

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Denial? That "broken, worthless AI" orders you to die by A, B or C or Game Over. And you do. It's broken and worthless, and it's still the boss of you. You don't seem all that stoopid, so why don't you see it? It's a powerful psychic mechanism.

Orders? He doesn't order anything. Just tells you what the options are. It doesn't have the capability to choose for itself.

If snything's the boss, it's the situation itself.

And how does that make things any better?

In effect, he is ordering you to make a choice.

The problem with this also is that outwardly no, he isn't ordering you to do anything, but he does have some big bad guys looming outside that will destroy everything you hold dear if you don't make one of these choices.  It's so stupid.  The AI, though intelligence is too good a word for it, says his solution won't work anymore and yet, if you don't make a choice his logic tells him it's just so smart to keep using something that will not fulfill his purpose.  Where's the logic in that.  Logic would say, stop using what is not working and try and develop something else.  Instead he is using a broken hammer to pound a screw into a warped plank in a leaky boat.  The hammer (the reapers) are not working.  The screw (Shepard) could be better used.  The warped plank (the choices) are not effective at solving Shepard's purpose but the kid insists on having them fit his leaky boat (the illogical purpose). 

The situation was created by the Leviathans and the kid-the choices only exist because of them.  Stop sending a non-working solution to fix a non-existent, irrelevant problem and the choices go away.

The options are splintered fragments of what the kid has been doing all along.  The crucible changes the kid, he says this-it changes him.  He needs new solutions.  The crucible splits his solution into three parts all of which existed within his reaper solution.  Synthesis is what he attempted to do with the reapers and it failed-it's always failed, he says.  Control is what he's been doing and it's failed, because he thinks the problem still exists, perhaps because of Leviathan's abilities to still enthrall people (since those who were enthralled created the killer synthetics in the first place) and because the reaper machines still exist with organic essence within them but now as reapers.  Destroy is a final solution and he's also tried to do this.  It's kind of a circle in a circle.  It's almost like he created the reapers in order to destroy the machines, but uses them to destroy.  What it seems is that he wants is for someone else to find a way to destroy them or at least to make them unnecessary.  But all of this is so ridiculous, because the kid is supposed to be a logic device.  That means it should not continue doing something that is not logical, especially if it recognizes it isn't.  In effect, it created a whole solution that does not work and the crucible is dividing it into parts which don't solve either Shepard's problem or the kid's.

I'd like to think there's a real reason for BW choosing to call that thing a crucible (which is a test, especially a grind in a battle) and to call the kid a catalyst which is a force for change or something that starts a reaction or promotes one.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Nightwriter wrote...
I think people who use the "debating with it would have been useless" argument are kind of missing the point.

Whether or not the Catalyst would have stroked its chin philosophically and said "hmm, your words have merit" is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that the most important points get some kind of representation -- that we don't lose our voice in the final moment of truth. So far the only ending where they get representation is the one where the entire galaxy dies.

The Catalyst's response to this doesn't really matter. If we end up pulling some kind of Kirk-esque mind whammy on the robot, and out-argue it, fine. If it refuses to hear us, and we end up needing to blow it up and go home, fine.

This, so much this!

Just 5 minutes ago, Shepard used his power of words to talk an insane TIM to commit suicide or mock him into lowering his guard.

And yet now, when being faced with a crazy AI. Shepard just bends down and takes it right in the rear end, not bothering to put any kind of fight.

[3DandBeyond]

Nightwriter wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

 Well, I won't bother to quote that nstar post again, since it's been repeated enough. But it does bring to mind why I
didn't have a big problem with the ending.

I've always seen Shep as someone who would face the unpleasant truths and do the things that others can't or won't do. So, the galaxy is trapped in a cycle brought on by an AI following bad premises to an idiotic conclusion? Yep, that sucks.... so, what can be done about it? While arguing with the Catalyst might have been entertaining, there's no reason to think it would be any more persuadable than Sovereign was. ( Would ten minutes of circular dialogue with he Catalyst have made the ending better, or worse?)

Which leaves using the Crucible. Using that is hardly "bowing down" to that broken, worthless AI. What he thinks and wants aren't of any concern.

Which raises the question.... why did I feel this way about the ending, rather than nstar's way. Any guesses?

I think people who use the "debating with it would have been useless" argument are kind of missing the point.

Whether or not the Catalyst would have stroked its chin philosophically and said "hmm, your words have merit" is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that the most important points get some kind of representation -- that we don't lose our voice in the final moment of truth. So far the only ending where they get representation is the one where the entire galaxy dies.

The Catalyst's response to this doesn't really matter. If we end up pulling some kind of Kirk-esque mind whammy on the robot, and out-argue it, fine. If it refuses to hear us, and we end up needing to blow it up and go home, fine.

What it is is bad writing.  And that some can give that a pass and say that's fine is really beyond my comprehension.  The content of products is not hands off - it is exactly why you buy a product.  Posters saying that Shepard was called upon to make tough decisions when others wouldn't, really ignores the fact that Shepard was never called upon to make them in this way without at least thinking they were fixing the problem and without having some idea that the good can outweigh the bad and at least make sense.

If Shepard at least had the opportunity to decry the choices as not fitting the circumstances and the kid as the enemy in some realistic way and the outcome was one of these occurrences at least that would have been an attempt to use real logic.  The kid should have loomed at least as large as those he commanded or should have made you feel that he did.  The only time he does is when he says "so be it", but people still tend to argue even knowing that, that the kid is just doing what he must.  Ok, but he pull that so be it out of his butt somewhere?  That should tell you all you need to know about what the kid is and what the choices are to him.  He doesn't get mad if Shepard makes a choice, only when Shepard doesn't.

What the kid thinks and wants are totally relevant.  He has shown that he is anything but some drone or some under control AI.  He gives the choices their explanation and paints them so as to try and show one as his favorite.  It plays so much like the poison wine segment in the Princess Bride.  You want to make this choice because he likes it, but if you dislke him, you should not want to make a choice he likes.  He is not the brightest AI ever made and is horrifically flawed.

You hit the nail on the head-Shepard is lost in this ending segment.  I'd assert this happens from the moment Shepard hits Earth, but especially after getting to the conduit.  Shooting Anderson, meaningless.  Anderson dies, oh well.  In contact with Hackett at one point, meets the kid, sees what's what, never tries to contact anyone.  Meets the kid and asks who the kid is and is told that it controls the great big monsters outside that are destroying ships and killing people and even says that to the kid and then accepts the kid's statements on all of this.  Only an idiot would accept that.  If someone's sending killer clowns and you are watching killer clowns shoot people and you say that's what's happening, you don't just accept the assertion that the killer clowns are just doing what they must.  You tell the fool who now says he wants to help you to stop sending killer clowns, at least to stop them right now.  Even if it doesn't work, you still tell him to knock it off.  That's what real people do.  They don't just move on to have a conversation and tea with the guy.

And you put it so well, even if Shepard were to lose in a confrontation, at least it would have made some sense to have it be a real confrontation-there was more of one with TIM than with the kid.  Shepard had more of a confrontation with the Salarian over curing the genophage than with the AI kid.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 novembre 2012 - 04:30 .

[Raging_Pulse]

Lizardviking wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I think people who use the "debating with it would have been useless" argument are kind of missing the point.

Whether or not the Catalyst would have stroked its chin philosophically and said "hmm, your words have merit" is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that the most important points get some kind of representation -- that we don't lose our voice in the final moment of truth. So far the only ending where they get representation is the one where the entire galaxy dies.

The Catalyst's response to this doesn't really matter. If we end up pulling some kind of Kirk-esque mind whammy on the robot, and out-argue it, fine. If it refuses to hear us, and we end up needing to blow it up and go home, fine.

This, so much this!

Just 5 minutes ago, Shepard used his power of words to talk an insane TIM to commit suicide or mock him into lowering his guard.

And yet now, when being faced with a crazy AI. Shepard just bends down and takes it right in the rear end, not bothering to put any kind of fight.

+∞

[Grubas]

Lizardviking wrote...
....!

Just 5 minutes ago, Shepard used his power of words to talk an insane TIM to commit suicide or mock him into lowering his guard.

And yet now, when being faced with a crazy AI. Shepard just bends down and takes it right in the rear end, not bothering to put any kind of fight.

He could have at least asked why it must be him. Why is Shepard the chosen one

[Ticonderoga117]

Grubas wrote...
He could have at least asked why it must be him. Why is Shepard the chosen one

"Because you made it this far."

"But Anderson got to the console first."

"He was not worthy."

"Why?"

"Because... I said so!"

[3DandBeyond]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Grubas wrote...
He could have at least asked why it must be him. Why is Shepard the chosen one

"Because you made it this far."

"But Anderson got to the console first."

"He was not worthy."

"Why?"

"Because... I said so!"

But, but TIM made it there before everyone else.

This is so funny, actually I can imagine that being the kid's answer to everything-because I said so.  Followed by a big temper tantrum complete with tears.  Then Shepard would jump into the beam just to make it stop.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 novembre 2012 - 04:55 .

[Raizo]

My problem with ME3 in General is that I felt as if the whole entire game spat in my face. I did not feel as if any of my choices mattered in the end. I did not get to spend any time with the characters that I cared the most about in the ME Universe. I did not feel as if saved the day at the end of ME3, the original endings to ME3 were so bad and had so many holes in them that I did not feel as if there was any closure anywhere for anyone or anything.

[Blueprotoss]

AxStapleton wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Never said you had hatred but it seems like you want a creator to open Pandora's Box or that "can of worms".  Btw ME3 didn't contradict ME1/ME2 and Bioware still owns ME, which means they still wouldn't be in the wrong.   Its okay to have an opinion but to say differently is a whole different ball game.

Admitting that you've done wrong isn't a bad thing.

The Extended Cut being made (and pushing all other DLC back) really wasn't a case of Bioware patting themselves on the back for a job well done, believe me.  Plus, I didn't make any points on whether 'this contradicted that'.  I'm just stating the Extended Cut was made as remedy to the situation that the original ending made (there wouldn't have been nearly as much outcry if the Extended cut had been the original ending). It is a passive statement that they'd at least done some things wrong with the ending.

Oddly enough I didn't do anything wrong but its odd that you say this when you're focusing on opinions instead of the facts.

Btw if the EC was "created" for the small group of "ragers" then none of the sqaudmate scenes during the beam sequence wouldn't have appeared on Youtube months before the EC's release.

spirosz wrote...

Just ignore Blue, when asked to provide some actual evidence, he'll ignore you or state that you're insulting him.

Ignorance will only create more ignorance while its ironic when you're insuting people without a simple discussion.

[Grubas]

Protoss is back to necro a long forgotten thread.

Mods, be so kind, please?

[Blueprotoss]

Grubas wrote...

Protoss is back to necro a long forgotten thread.

Mods, be so kind, please?

If it was truelly forgotten then you wouldn't be here and if the Mods should come then they should come for the insults that you just released.

[Gavrilo]

hmm i think "someone" done that on purpose,ruin ending.think a little,if ending was great and gives us opportunity to explore ending in many ways,with lets say 8 different or variations of endings(council saved or no,collector base destroyed or no etc),WOULD ANYONE PLAY MP AT ALL??? i think not,i would probably finish me3 6-7times with my saved chars from me2.than go back to me1 and kill council saved Ash,put an end on Rachni and had fun over and over again,knowing that at the end il kick Harbingers ass

[Blueprotoss]

Gavrilo wrote...

hmm i think "someone" done that on purpose,ruin ending.think a little,if ending was great and gives us opportunity to explore ending in many ways,with lets say 8 different or variations of endings(council saved or no,collector base destroyed or no etc),WOULD ANYONE PLAY MP AT ALL??? i think not,i would probably finish me3 6-7times with my saved chars from me2.than go back to me1 and kill council saved Ash,put an end on Rachni and had fun over and over again,knowing that at the end il kick Harbingers ass

Thats an assumption there even when people like me thought the MP would be a disaster later loved it and didn't touch the MP for the most part until after completing the SP.

[silverexile17s]

Blueprotoss wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Never said you had hatred but it seems like you want a creator to open Pandora's Box or that "can of worms".  Btw ME3 didn't contradict ME1/ME2 and Bioware still owns ME, which means they still wouldn't be in the wrong.   Its okay to have an opinion but to say differently is a whole different ball game.

Admitting that you've done wrong isn't a bad thing.

The Extended Cut being made (and pushing all other DLC back) really wasn't a case of Bioware patting themselves on the back for a job well done, believe me.  Plus, I didn't make any points on whether 'this contradicted that'.  I'm just stating the Extended Cut was made as remedy to the situation that the original ending made (there wouldn't have been nearly as much outcry if the Extended cut had been the original ending). It is a passive statement that they'd at least done some things wrong with the ending.

Oddly enough I didn't do anything wrong but its odd that you say this when you're focusing on opinions instead of the facts.

Btw if the EC was "created" for the small group of "ragers" then none of the sqaudmate scenes during the beam sequence wouldn't have appeared on Youtube months before the EC's release.

spirosz wrote...

Just ignore Blue, when asked to provide some actual evidence, he'll ignore you or state that you're insulting him.

Ignorance will only create more ignorance while its ironic when you're insuting people without a simple discussion.

1. If they didn't think that the ending needed improvement, they would not have made the EC at all. They would have told us to screw off. The knew they screwed up on the ending. They would not have re-prioritized the entire DLC lineup, and re-hire the entire squad cast if they thought otherwise.
Besides, what makes YOUR statement about it not being true any less opinion?

2.Didn't you just now insult someone yourself (calling them ignorant) when you just said that insults don't work?
And don't you wonder why everyone thinks that of you?

[silverexile17s]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Grubas wrote...

Protoss is back to necro a long forgotten thread.

Mods, be so kind, please?

If it was truelly forgotten then you wouldn't be here and if the Mods should come then they should come for the insults that you just released.

That is the general opinion of you. It's not just Grubas that thinks that way of you.
And bickering like this is going to get the thread locked.

"The fan cycle cannot be broken...even if the devs try."
That was the thread that you and I closed, because you would not let sleeping dogs lie. Just state an opinion, stop claiming it's fact when you have not given any proof, and stop nit-picking everyone's comments, because it gives the opinion that you are always trying to start something.