354 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

I lol'ed at the title - "possible reasons"

[AdmiralCheez]

spirosz wrote...

I lol'ed at the title - "possible reasons"

Well, yeah.  I mean obviously it might not be the ONLY reason, and a lot of people don't think the ending failed at all.

[SNascimento]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

No, that is the finality as it is. When you die, do you think you are going to feel awesome and pumped afterwards? No, because that is the end, it's final.
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ME3's ending feels like the death of your story, of shepard story. That is what I mean by finality.

Death of the hero is okay so long as it is an epic, worthy, and meaningful death.  I was actually prepped for Shepard to die.

Provided I get to go out like this.

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You are missing my point.
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I never said Shepard's death. I said Shepard's story. Your story. The one you made across all three games. I'm using the term death because that is the closest thing I can think of to explain ME3's ending, the finality of it is like the finality of death. The uncertainty, the completeness, the finality... 
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There is a reason why pictures like this exist:
.

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One can say that the main goal of ME3's ending is to make you reach acceptance. If you can do that, truly do that, you actually get something very good out of ME3 trilogy. Something better than the good feeling you would have with a happy ending.
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[hiraeth]

SNascimento wrote...

One can say that the main goal of ME3's ending is to make you reach acceptance. If you can do that, truly do that, you actually get something very good out of ME3 trilogy. Something better than the good feeling you would have with a happy ending.

I can see where you're coming from...my only problem is that I can never accept an ending like that. Like...ever.

[AdmiralCheez]

SNascimento wrote...

I never said Shepard's death. I said Shepard's story. Your story. The
one you made across all three games. I'm using the term death because
that is the closest thing I can think of to explain ME3's ending, the
finality of it is like the finality of death. The uncertainty, the
completeness, the finality...

[...]

One can say that the main goal of ME3's ending is to make you reach acceptance. If you can do that, truly do that, you actually get something very good out of ME3 trilogy. Something better than the good feeling you would have with a happy ending.

STOP.

LOOK.

I DO NOT MIND THAT THE STORY ENDS.  I DO NOT MIND THAT SHEPARD AND CO. WILL NOT BE HAVING ADVENTURES TOGETHER ANYMORE.

ARE WE CLEAR ON THAT?

GOOD.

NOW GO BACK AND READ THE OP AGAIN.  IT IS NOT THE FINALITY THAT IS THE PROBLEM, BUT THE LACK OF TRIUMPH.

I AM TYPING IN CAPITAL LETTERS FOR MAXIMUM CLARITY.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 31 octobre 2012 - 04:59 .

[SNascimento]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

I never said Shepard's death. I said Shepard's story. Your story. The
one you made across all three games. I'm using the term death because
that is the closest thing I can think of to explain ME3's ending, the
finality of it is like the finality of death. The uncertainty, the
completeness, the finality...

[...]

One can say that the main goal of ME3's ending is to make you reach acceptance. If you can do that, truly do that, you actually get something very good out of ME3 trilogy. Something better than the good feeling you would have with a happy ending.

STOP.

LOOK.

I DO NOT MIND THAT THE STORY ENDS.  I DO NOT MIND THAT SHEPARD AND CO. WILL NOT BE HAVING ADVENTURES TOGETHER ANYMORE.

ARE WE CLEAR ON THAT?

GOOD.

NOW GO BACK AND READ THE OP AGAIN.  IT IS NOT THE FINALITY THAT IS THE PROBLEM, BUT THE LACK OF TRIUMPH.

I AM TYPING IN CAPITAL LETTERS FOR MAXIMUM CLARITY.

.
But the problem is that you are missing a simple principle. Finality, as it is, cannot give a sense of triumph. 
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The triumph comes before the end. Didn't you feel triumph after defeating Soverign? Or winning the Battle of The Collector base? Or curing the Genophage? Or resolving the hundred years old Quarian-Geth conflit? I bet you did, at least in one of them. But the end doesn't give sense of triumph. And I'm not meaning ME3's ending here. I'm meaning the absolute end, like the end of a life. 

Modifié par SNascimento, 31 octobre 2012 - 05:04 .

[spirosz]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

spirosz wrote...

I lol'ed at the title - "possible reasons"

Well, yeah.  I mean obviously it might not be the ONLY reason, and a lot of people don't think the ending failed at all.

I agree with you and I'm in the boat that doesn't really mind the ending, it's more the core game itself that has me not wanting to go back, unfortunetly. 

[M2S SOLID JOSH]

hate when people blame shepards death as the sole reason of the hate of the ending( not to u op)... i expected shep to die in at least some of the endings but theres so much more wrong with the endings than some people think

[AdmiralCheez]

SNascimento wrote...

But the problem is that you are missing a simple principle. Finality, as it is, cannot give a sense of triumph. 
.
The triumph comes before the end. Didn't you feel triumph after defeating Soverign? Or winning the Battle of The Collector base? Or curing the Genophage? Or resolving the hundred years old Quarian-Geth conflit? I bet you did, at least in one of them. But the end doesn't give sense of triumph. And I'm not meaning ME3's ending here. I'm meaning the absolute end, like the end of a life.

Well, at the absolute ending to life, you're dead.  You can't feel anything.  But in your final moments?  It's possible to be at peace, to be proud of what you've done, to be comfortable leaving your loved ones behind knowing that they can take care of themselves.

But death itself?  Yep.  Great void of nothing.  Thankfully, playing Mass Effect doesn't kill you.

What I mean by triumph is to feel a sense of accomplishment as the credits roll.  To do so, you have to feel that all your effort has been worth it.  I didn't feel like anything I had done meant anything.  I didn't feel proud of myself.  I felt like I'd screwed everyone over in all three (four if you count Refuse) decisions.

To continue with your stupid death analogy, it's the difference between dying with dignity or dying in misery.  It's possible to comfortably leave the universe behind without horribly mucking it up first.  In fact, I was hoping I could leave it behind knowing that I made things better.

I do not feel a joyous departure through roboticide, Reaper dictatorship, the rise of the peace-borg, or the death of everyone I know and love.  All four of them leave the galaxy in a possibly worse state than it was before.

Seriously, couldn't I just go down punching Harbinger in the face or something?

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 31 octobre 2012 - 05:27 .

[FlamingBoy]

SNascimento wrote...

 I think Bioware made the right choice with ME3's ending..People don't like it because the finality of it. .

fi·nal·i·ty/fīˈnalətē/

Noun:

The fact or impression of being an irreversible ending: "the finality of death".
.
And by ending, I mean only what happens after your pick your choice. The starkid is another matter. What I'm sure is, if after your choice you had an ending more in tone with the exntended cut and a reunion with your LI, ME3's ending disater would NEVER have happened.
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There would be people complaining about the starkid, space magic and plot holes, but this guys exist ever since ME2. Actually, ME2 have a lot of this criticisms, but nonetheless is regarded as the best in the trilogy by the majority. 

its possible, but i don't agree because finality suggests that the ending was somehow good while ignoring all the qualms that was wrong with it. Also you say that if the ending was in tone with the extended cut/ reunion with the love interest will some how negate the ending controversy.

Again I do not agree there were significant parts wrong with the ending that was simply beyond forgiveness for the fanbase (especially considering how questionably they treated us before and after the crisis)

[Iakus]

M2S SOLID JOSH wrote...

hate when people blame shepards death as the sole reason of the hate of the ending( not to u op)... i expected shep to die in at least some of the endings but theres so much more wrong with the endings than some people think

Some endings, yeah.  But all the endings (that one breath scene is only a hint, not a certainty that Shep survived) is railroading at its "finest"   

nd that's why the endings failed.  Railroading.  It doesnt' matter what allies you gather.  It doesnt' matter what chocies you make.  It doesn't matter if you were paragon or renegade, or even how much MP you played, you can't win on your own terms.  Victory is taken away from us, and it's only though the Catalyst's blessing that we're allowed to proceed.

And oh yeah, Shepard has to burn.  No getting around that either

Granted EC somewhat helped on showing EMS having an actual effect.  It better differentiated between low medium and high EMS endings.  Also, slide shows kindasorta show how our choices made a difference.  But it's still more cosmetic than anything else.  Having krogan troops still makes no difference over more salarian dreadnoughts.  ANd the consequences of each choice are rather horrific to contemplate.

And Shepard still has to burn for the galaxy's sins. Dying alone and in pain,  Because tragedy is cool now and heroes must die for victory to have meaning

[BonFire5]

There's that, plus they decided to make the mood incredibly somber (or as somber as action/opera writers can get). Why does a space opera war have to feel depressing all the time?

[SNascimento]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

But the problem is that you are missing a simple principle. Finality, as it is, cannot give a sense of triumph. 
.
The triumph comes before the end. Didn't you feel triumph after defeating Soverign? Or winning the Battle of The Collector base? Or curing the Genophage? Or resolving the hundred years old Quarian-Geth conflit? I bet you did, at least in one of them. But the end doesn't give sense of triumph. And I'm not meaning ME3's ending here. I'm meaning the absolute end, like the end of a life.

Well, at the absolute ending to life, you're dead.  You can't feel anything.  But in your final moments?  It's possible to be at peace, to be proud of what you've done, to be comfortable leaving your loved ones behind knowing that they can take care of themselves.

But death itself?  Yep.  Great void of nothing.  Thankfully, playing Mass Effect doesn't kill you.

What I mean by triumph is to feel a sense of accomplishment as the credits roll.  To do so, you have to feel that all your effort has been worth it.  I didn't feel like anything I had done meant anything.  I didn't feel proud of myself.  I felt like I'd screwed everyone over in all three (four if you count Refuse) decisions.

To continue with your stupid death analogy, it's the difference between dying with dignity or dying in misery.  It's possible to comfortably leave the universe behind without horribly mucking it up first.  In fact, I was hoping I could leave it behind knowing that I made things better.

I do not feel a joyous departure through roboticide, Reaper dictatorship, the rise of the peace-borg, or the death of everyone I know and love.  All four of them leave the galaxy in a possibly worse state than it was before.

Seriously, couldn't I just go down punching Harbinger in the face or something?

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But you would miss something very important: uncertainty and the new beginning. Especially the former.
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Let me put an ending scenario here and you tell me if this is something more close to what you'd like to see, just don't analize it to much. You pick destroy option: All reapers are destroyed, but the geth, EDI and the galaxy infrastructure remains intact. You last scene is Shepard being held by your friends while dying, and they say that he did it, he stopped the reapers and everybody is oh so very proud of him. Than you get a nice epilogue showing the afterward. Shepard being endless praised, maybe a classic statue scene. You get difference scenes depending on your actions and everything.
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There is it. Pretty straight foward, don't you think? How would you liked it?
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I'm very confident if that ending was available the uproar wouldn't have existed, or at least would have been minimal compared to what is was. People would be satisfied by it. But then, its message would be completely different from the one we've got now. Continuing with my stupid death analogy, you can't make it happen while give certainty to the player. You have to make it wonder what will happen after the end.

[FlamingBoy]

magnetite wrote...

It's a known fact people are afraid of change. The fact that this game had to end with a happy ending (riding off with LI into the sunset actually would have only happened in destroy since Shepard gets indoctrinated in control or synthesis) or a action-packed finale even though you would have lost (Conventional victory is suicide, as stated many times throughout the game).

I personally believe society is going downhill when every game or film must have a cliche Hollywood ending (action packed or happy ending with you and your LI).

Something where the galaxy is in utter ruin, but the enemy is destroyed, at the same time has a slim ray of hope is not what the mainstream people understand. It's almost the polar opposite of what they'd expect. They don't like these kinds of endings.

When someone tries to do something different, it usually ends up in a huge controversy and or outrage. Change is good. We need more of these kind of endings even if society can't understand that.

this is kind of strange logic when my favorite movie is butch cassidy and the sundance kid (60's movie)
or the widely praised red dead redemption (even though I did not like it)

you also suggest that people did not "used" to be this way that they used to like these endings. I therefore bring your attention to sherlock holmes and the negativity that brought about the author
Edit: or comparing the street car named desire movie vs the play

to suggest that some how I did not "get" it, or that the game (ME3) was somehow before its time and audiences were just not ready for it.... well frankly it theres a difference between being deep with meaning and vague

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 31 octobre 2012 - 05:48 .

[AdmiralCheez]

magnetite wrote...

I personally believe society is going downhill when every game or film must have a cliche Hollywood ending (action packed or happy ending with you and your LI). 

Mass Effect ALREADY WAS cliche Hollywood stuff.  Go replay the other two games.  I'm serious.

I'm not opposed to non-traditional narratives, but one does not simply change tone and style in the last five minutes of a lengthy epic.

For example, ever read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle?  It's a really depressing story about how this one immigrant worker's life gets worse and worse and worse.  He loses his job, his kids die, and eventually he winds up wandering the countryside bitter and peniless.

BUT THEN SUDDENLY HE GOES TO A SOCIALIST RALLY AND EVERYTHING IS MAGICALLY OKAY
BECAUSE SOCIALISM IS AWESOME!

Greetings, sudden toneshift.  Are you trying to make a point?

So yeah, an otherwise grim and gritty story with a fluffy bunnies ending is just as obnoxious.  I've read plenty of grim and gritty books with soul-crushingly downeriffic endings and loved the crap out of them.  I still choke up when I think about All Quiet on the Western Front.  Damn good book!

THE POINT: Consistency is important!

[SNascimento]

FlamingBoy wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

 I think Bioware made the right choice with ME3's ending..People don't like it because the finality of it. .

fi·nal·i·ty/fīˈnalətē/

Noun:

The fact or impression of being an irreversible ending: "the finality of death".
.
And by ending, I mean only what happens after your pick your choice. The starkid is another matter. What I'm sure is, if after your choice you had an ending more in tone with the exntended cut and a reunion with your LI, ME3's ending disater would NEVER have happened.
.
There would be people complaining about the starkid, space magic and plot holes, but this guys exist ever since ME2. Actually, ME2 have a lot of this criticisms, but nonetheless is regarded as the best in the trilogy by the majority. 

its possible, but i don't agree because finality suggests that the ending was somehow good while ignoring all the qualms that was wrong with it. Also you say that if the ending was in tone with the extended cut/ reunion with the love interest will some how negate the ending controversy.

Again I do not agree there were significant parts wrong with the ending that was simply beyond forgiveness for the fanbase (especially considering how questionably they treated us before and after the crisis)

.
Yes, I believed this. And I also said the ending I'm talking about is only the things that happen after you pick your choice. So I'm not talking about the catalyst. That part of the endings I think it's fantastic and I wouldn't change it even if I had the power to do so.
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But I do have a lot of problems with the ending sequence. Priority Earth was poorly done. It's not a bad mission by itself, but it's a disappoitment considering what it should have been. Here is where your war assets should have mattered. It should be a super suicide mission.
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Also, the catalyst, well. I don't like him. I don't like how the reapers were handled in ME3, especially Harbinger.
.
But that is something else completely. They are not the main source of people problems with the endings. 

Modifié par SNascimento, 31 octobre 2012 - 05:55 .

[Nightdragon8]

Finality is fine if it is done right, the day 1 of it, it, was done WRONG

One of the big mistakes was, not explainning how your squad got back to the normandy. and the normandy suddenly running from the battle. then with it crashing and the relays all blowing up kind of put the galaxy in a very screwed up state. so it really didn't feel like you won. Yea you killed/control/magicly made everyone organic robots, but it did still make it feel like you lost.

I'm fine with a hero who sacerfices himself for everyone, thats pretty much a definition of a Hero. But dont make the Hero's death seem for not,

The other thing was the 2 times it told me to "buy the DLC" at the end, one in a textbox then the other in the form of some desktop wallpaper.

Plus the fact that they used a Deus Ex ending right down to the color scheme = automatic fail, and I'm surprised that they didn't get sued over it.

[JPN17]

I'd also just like to say that it sucked that instead of getting an ending that I fought for and deserved for 3 games, I was only able to choose an ending that the god kid, who comes out of nowhere, gives to me at the very end. God kid resolves the plot, not Shepard. That's a big no in my book.

[Jadebaby]

Well yea.. I reckong the "f*ck yea" moment is a must. Especially in a video game.

However, I still can't understand how wanting to try something new, resulted in... well, this.

Although even if we had the f*ck yea moment and Shepard's fate was still determined by headcanon via a cliffhanger ending....

I'd still be pissed.

[StarcloudSWG]

Yes, the ending failed because emotionally, it ended on a 'down' moment.

If it had stopped with Anderson and Shepard sitting there, and then cut to the beam firing, THAT would have been an emotionally satisfying ending.

Instead, it proceeded to the Catalyst. And a whole crapload of open-ended questions.

[wright1978]

ME3 ending is a damp squib mess with so many huge problems to it.

There's all these war assets i've built up and yet they play virtually zero role in the ending. They are the missing f**k yeah moments. I don't see the Normandy, Destiny ascension, Krogan, geth, Quarians etc in action doing great things if i've accrued these assets.

Then there's the bizarre decision to bring ghost boy into the equation. It feels like they came up with the 3 ending types athey wanted nd then worked in a cheap device to achieve them that doesn't fit with anything else that came before.
I also dislike in a choice based game this desperate attempt by them to force Shep's death. Eventually they added in a Half arsed shep lives scenario but it should have been built in properly.

[Killer3000ad]

With all the gloominess in the lead up to the Battle for London a "F*CK YEAH!" ending was definitely needed. I still can't fanthom how no one in Bioware looked at the ending they had and said,"This is really bad, if we put this out the fans will be pissed." It was plain as day too so many how bad the ending was and we've made it loud and clear how much we hated it and still hate it post-EC, yet Bioware seems bound and determined to burn their franchise to the ground and bury it under a tonne of 'artistic integrity'.