I do agree with you OP. I kept waiting for for Shepard to swagger towards the screen with her cheeky smirk just like she did in 1 and 2 so I could jump up and yell "F*** YEAH! I JUST PUNCHED OUT CTHUHLU!"
There were a host of other issues I had with the ending but this lack of a sense of accomplishment was definitely part of it.
Possible reason why the ending failed.
Débuté par
AdmiralCheez
, oct. 31 2012 04:06
Retour en haut
#127
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:01
GreyLycanTrope
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I'm saying I'd like a story to be emotinally engaging but that it shouldn't rely on that alone, emotional mainpulation's not all it's cracked up to be, you need a bit of rational thinking to lead you some place satisfying sometimes. The EC was gushing with emotion but was still unsatsifying for a good chuck of us. Some of the fixes just left more questions.CaptainZaysh wrote...
Are you really arguing for a less emotionally engaging story?
Modifié par Greylycantrope, 31 octobre 2012 - 06:02 .
#128
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:03
LiarasShield
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- Members
- 6 924 messages
This was the reason the ending failed
Whether or not you enjoyed the conclusion to Mass Effect 3 (personally I feel
it tarnished an otherwise masterful series) please take a look at the
pre-release quotes below from websites and interviews with the game's
developers, writers and producers.
Does all that talk of meaningful player choice, multiple significantly
different endings and closure for the characters and series not seem,
at the very least, strange?
I believe Bioware can be legitimately accused of, at best, fudging the
truth if not outright deceit given the inconsistency between notions
of choice, closure etc. expressed before the game was released and
the ending as it currently stands.
In my opinion Bioware produced a badly written, ill-conceived shambles
of an ending riddled with plot holes and logical inconsistencies but
even if you loved the final moments of this great game do you really
think what was stated in the interviews below has been proved true?
Maybe Walters, Gamble, Hudson et al will be proved right when a decent
ending is released via (presumably free) DLC that explains the
original ending was just some sort of hallucination/indoctrination.
I'm not holding my breath waiting for that though.
Official Mass Effect Website
http://masseffect.com/about/story/
“Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any
other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience
and outcome.”
Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.c...-3-mac-walters/
“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass
Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”
Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.fina...-all-audiences/
“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think
one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are
optimal for different people “
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computera...missing-in-me2/
“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as
much as we are anyway.”
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/
“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry
“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the
architect of what happens."
“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless
of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide
some answers to these people.”
“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being
brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they
got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was
because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you
didn't make”
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...s-effect-3.aspx
“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the
universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in
Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different
based on what you would do in those situations.”
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.c...fans-interview/
“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get
some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”
“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the
lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers,
being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an
end.”
Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”
Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2
Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”
Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many
decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.”
“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player
decide what your story is.”
EDIT: Couple more interesting quotes I found, enjoy......or not.
Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....in_bioware.html
Mass Effect 3 will shake up the player's moral choices more than ever
before, even going so far as allowing the Reapers to win the battle
for Earth, according to BioWare's community representative Mike
Gamble.
In an inteview with NowGamer at Gamescom, we asked if BioWare was taking risks with Mass Effect 3's
plot, including a negative ending in which the Reapers win. Gamble simply said, "Yes". We asked him again to confirm what he had just said and he said, "Yes".
EDIT: thanks to Our_Last_Scene for pointing out that this quote was clarified on Mike Gamble's twitter feed (apparently the 'reapers win' scenario is simply the 'Critical Mission Failure' message the player receives if they dawdle too long at the crucible before making their choice, see this link for info - http://twitter.com/#...895746313363457)
Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....ry_details.html
"Of course you don’t have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play
all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you’ll
still get all the same endings and same information, it’s just a
totally different way of playing"
Casey Hudson (Director)
http://gamescatalyst...active-stories/
“The whole idea of Mass Effect3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and
the Reapers, and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all
of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to
live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3.”
Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.computera...ly-good/?page=2
“There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And
even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to
some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending
where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things
- it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the
final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who
plays it.”
EDIT: Thanks to Skidrow-Garrett for pointing out another mystifying quote or two. It seems Bioware worked for years on the ending and are really pleased with it. I think it makes new DLC to address all the concerns less likely, unfortunately.
Ray Muzyka (Co-Founder of Bioware)
http://penny-arcade....ing-a-trilogy-a
“I just finished an end to end playthrough, for me the ending was the
most satisfying of any game I’ve ever played….the decisions you make in
this game are epic,”
“The team has been planning
for this for years, since the beginning of the Mass Effect franchise.
Largely the same team, most of the same leads have worked on this for
years and years. They’ve thought about [the ending] for years and years.
It’s not something they’ve had to solve in a week or a month even, but
over the course of five or ten years.”
Whether or not you enjoyed the conclusion to Mass Effect 3 (personally I feel
it tarnished an otherwise masterful series) please take a look at the
pre-release quotes below from websites and interviews with the game's
developers, writers and producers.
Does all that talk of meaningful player choice, multiple significantly
different endings and closure for the characters and series not seem,
at the very least, strange?
I believe Bioware can be legitimately accused of, at best, fudging the
truth if not outright deceit given the inconsistency between notions
of choice, closure etc. expressed before the game was released and
the ending as it currently stands.
In my opinion Bioware produced a badly written, ill-conceived shambles
of an ending riddled with plot holes and logical inconsistencies but
even if you loved the final moments of this great game do you really
think what was stated in the interviews below has been proved true?
Maybe Walters, Gamble, Hudson et al will be proved right when a decent
ending is released via (presumably free) DLC that explains the
original ending was just some sort of hallucination/indoctrination.
I'm not holding my breath waiting for that though.
Official Mass Effect Website
http://masseffect.com/about/story/
“Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any
other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience
and outcome.”
Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.c...-3-mac-walters/
“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass
Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”
Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.fina...-all-audiences/
“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think
one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are
optimal for different people “
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computera...missing-in-me2/
“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as
much as we are anyway.”
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/
“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry
“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the
architect of what happens."
“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless
of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide
some answers to these people.”
“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being
brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they
got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was
because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you
didn't make”
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...s-effect-3.aspx
“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the
universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in
Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different
based on what you would do in those situations.”
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.c...fans-interview/
“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get
some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”
“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the
lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers,
being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an
end.”
Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”
Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2
Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”
Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many
decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.”
“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player
decide what your story is.”
EDIT: Couple more interesting quotes I found, enjoy......or not.
Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....in_bioware.html
Mass Effect 3 will shake up the player's moral choices more than ever
before, even going so far as allowing the Reapers to win the battle
for Earth, according to BioWare's community representative Mike
Gamble.
In an inteview with NowGamer at Gamescom, we asked if BioWare was taking risks with Mass Effect 3's
plot, including a negative ending in which the Reapers win. Gamble simply said, "Yes". We asked him again to confirm what he had just said and he said, "Yes".
EDIT: thanks to Our_Last_Scene for pointing out that this quote was clarified on Mike Gamble's twitter feed (apparently the 'reapers win' scenario is simply the 'Critical Mission Failure' message the player receives if they dawdle too long at the crucible before making their choice, see this link for info - http://twitter.com/#...895746313363457)
Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....ry_details.html
"Of course you don’t have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play
all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you’ll
still get all the same endings and same information, it’s just a
totally different way of playing"
Casey Hudson (Director)
http://gamescatalyst...active-stories/
“The whole idea of Mass Effect3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and
the Reapers, and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all
of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to
live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3.”
Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.computera...ly-good/?page=2
“There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And
even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to
some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending
where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things
- it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the
final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who
plays it.”
EDIT: Thanks to Skidrow-Garrett for pointing out another mystifying quote or two. It seems Bioware worked for years on the ending and are really pleased with it. I think it makes new DLC to address all the concerns less likely, unfortunately.
Ray Muzyka (Co-Founder of Bioware)
http://penny-arcade....ing-a-trilogy-a
“I just finished an end to end playthrough, for me the ending was the
most satisfying of any game I’ve ever played….the decisions you make in
this game are epic,”
“The team has been planning
for this for years, since the beginning of the Mass Effect franchise.
Largely the same team, most of the same leads have worked on this for
years and years. They’ve thought about [the ending] for years and years.
It’s not something they’ve had to solve in a week or a month even, but
over the course of five or ten years.”
#129
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:20
crimzontearz
-
- Members
- 16 785 messages
lol, to be fair someone has actually directly apologized about 1 of those statements
#130
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:22
hiraeth
-
- Members
- 1 055 messages
crimzontearz wrote...
lol, to be fair someone has actually directly apologized about 1 of those statements
really? who? i didn't hear about an apology!
#131
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:24
crimzontearz
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- Members
- 16 785 messages
hold on let me take a quick screencapMassEffectFShep wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
lol, to be fair someone has actually directly apologized about 1 of those statements
really? who? i didn't hear about an apology!
#132
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:28
silverexile17s
-
- Members
- 2 547 messages
I agree with your points. and it's nice to see SOMEONE here that has the PROOF to back their points.LiarasShield wrote...
This was the reason the ending failed
Whether or not you enjoyed the conclusion to Mass Effect 3 (personally I feel
it tarnished an otherwise masterful series) please take a look at the
pre-release quotes below from websites and interviews with the game's
developers, writers and producers.
Does all that talk of meaningful player choice, multiple significantly
different endings and closure for the characters and series not seem,
at the very least, strange?
I believe Bioware can be legitimately accused of, at best, fudging the
truth if not outright deceit given the inconsistency between notions
of choice, closure etc. expressed before the game was released and
the ending as it currently stands.
In my opinion Bioware produced a badly written, ill-conceived shambles
of an ending riddled with plot holes and logical inconsistencies but
even if you loved the final moments of this great game do you really
think what was stated in the interviews below has been proved true?
Maybe Walters, Gamble, Hudson et al will be proved right when a decent
ending is released via (presumably free) DLC that explains the
original ending was just some sort of hallucination/indoctrination.
I'm not holding my breath waiting for that though.
Official Mass Effect Website
http://masseffect.com/about/story/
“Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any
other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience
and outcome.”
Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.c...-3-mac-walters/
“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass
Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”
Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.fina...-all-audiences/
“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think
one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are
optimal for different people “
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computera...missing-in-me2/
“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as
much as we are anyway.”
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/
“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry
“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the
architect of what happens."
“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless
of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide
some answers to these people.”
“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being
brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they
got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was
because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you
didn't make”
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...s-effect-3.aspx
“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the
universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in
Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different
based on what you would do in those situations.”
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.c...fans-interview/
“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get
some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”
“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the
lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers,
being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an
end.”
Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”
Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2
Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”
Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many
decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.”
“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player
decide what your story is.”
EDIT: Couple more interesting quotes I found, enjoy......or not.
Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....in_bioware.html
Mass Effect 3 will shake up the player's moral choices more than ever
before, even going so far as allowing the Reapers to win the battle
for Earth, according to BioWare's community representative Mike
Gamble.
In an inteview with NowGamer at Gamescom, we asked if BioWare was taking risks with Mass Effect 3's
plot, including a negative ending in which the Reapers win. Gamble simply said, "Yes". We asked him again to confirm what he had just said and he said, "Yes".
EDIT: thanks to Our_Last_Scene for pointing out that this quote was clarified on Mike Gamble's twitter feed (apparently the 'reapers win' scenario is simply the 'Critical Mission Failure' message the player receives if they dawdle too long at the crucible before making their choice, see this link for info - http://twitter.com/#...895746313363457)
Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....ry_details.html
"Of course you don’t have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play
all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you’ll
still get all the same endings and same information, it’s just a
totally different way of playing"
Casey Hudson (Director)
http://gamescatalyst...active-stories/
“The whole idea of Mass Effect3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and
the Reapers, and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all
of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to
live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3.”
Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.computera...ly-good/?page=2
“There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And
even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to
some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending
where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things
- it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the
final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who
plays it.”
EDIT: Thanks to Skidrow-Garrett for pointing out another mystifying quote or two. It seems Bioware worked for years on the ending and are really pleased with it. I think it makes new DLC to address all the concerns less likely, unfortunately.
Ray Muzyka (Co-Founder of Bioware)
http://penny-arcade....ing-a-trilogy-a
“I just finished an end to end playthrough, for me the ending was the
most satisfying of any game I’ve ever played….the decisions you make in
this game are epic,”
“The team has been planning
for this for years, since the beginning of the Mass Effect franchise.
Largely the same team, most of the same leads have worked on this for
years and years. They’ve thought about [the ending] for years and years.
It’s not something they’ve had to solve in a week or a month even, but
over the course of five or ten years.”
(Yes, I mean you @Blueprotoss. Lots of us are still waiting for you to give us proof of your claims)
#133
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:30
silverexile17s
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- Members
- 2 547 messages
It's true. Deus Ex may not be where the concept originated, but it's where it became the most famous and popular from.MassEffectFShep wrote...
Blueprotoss wrote...
Gervaise wrote...
Reading the Final Hours, it is revealled that originally we were going to be given a conventional big boss ending with a synthesised and power boosted TIM. Presumably after beating him we would simply press the button and get a conventional destroy ending with Reapers wiped out and everyone else surviving, except possibly Shepard. For some reason, the writers decided this would too cliched and predictable and so we got the endings we did. May be they should do a DLC ending with the one they originally planned and then when people get to the beam, that is where they are given the choice of a) conventional ending (TIM boss) ordirector's cut (the current endings). Since they have made it clear that Shepard's story ends regardless and it would be impossible to write a sequel without canonising one of the endings anyway, this would make little difference except allowing those people who do not enjoy the endings, to experience the original "conventional" vision of the writers rather than the later "non-conventional" one.
iakus wrote...
Such an ending would be cliched and uncreative. Truly a DXHR rip-off.
Yet I would pay good money to replace the current ending with that, if it meant Shepard could rejoin the crew/LI, look out over a devastated London, and go "What do we do now?"
For Deus Ex to be the originator of those "endings" then DE would have to be one of the 1st science fiction stories to exist especially when Babylon 5, Megaman, Iron Man, Transformers, Blade Runner, Robocop, and the Matrix existed before DE. Its also odd that Blade Runner, Robocop, and the Matrix heavily influenced DE as a series.
i don't think he was asserting that DXHR was the first of its kind to do an ending like this..just a recent example. posts would be really long and painful if we had to recount the history of science fiction endings to make a point.
#134
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:34
crimzontearz
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- Members
- 16 785 messages
MassEffectFShep wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
lol, to be fair someone has actually directly apologized about 1 of those statements
really? who? i didn't hear about an apology!
img51.imageshack.us/img51/8489/screenshot2012103114325.png
there, at the time we were talking a lot about the weapons, the deleted enemies and so on, I did ask him a week prior about the lack of sufficient war assets in SP to get the breath scene, he inquired to the guy who coded it and the answer was that, as you see, that is how it was meant to be....even tho he was told before there would be enough assets in the game to get ALL endings
Modifié par crimzontearz, 31 octobre 2012 - 06:35 .
#135
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:39
hiraeth
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- Members
- 1 055 messages
crimzontearz wrote...
MassEffectFShep wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
lol, to be fair someone has actually directly apologized about 1 of those statements
really? who? i didn't hear about an apology!
(image)
there, at the time we were talking a lot about the weapons, the deleted enemies and so on, I did ask him a week prior about the lack of sufficient war assets in SP to get the breath scene, he inquired to the guy who coded it and the answer was that, as you see, that is how it was meant to be....even tho he was told before there would be enough assets in the game to get ALL endings
thanks crimzontearz! very nice of you to share it with us
#136
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:44
crimzontearz
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- Members
- 16 785 messages
I have been sharing that and more for a while but people keep forgetting
Also, in a prior message he let me know that Casey seemed adamant about having a happy non sacrifice ending....god only knows WTF happened to that
Also, in a prior message he let me know that Casey seemed adamant about having a happy non sacrifice ending....god only knows WTF happened to that
#137
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:45
inko1nsiderate
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I think the reasons the ending was not well receive, at least right at release, largely boil down to implementation. The final mission didn't have the aspects people love about the Suicide Mission (not enough player input), and there are wonky bits in the end in terms of both cut-scenes, dialogue and how it actually plays. This could be intentional (IT), or this could be because the ending was rushed to be implemented in game (what I believe).
I think the ending would have worked better (or at least been met with less initial fan rage and only later be raged after in-depth analysis of the ending) with a few minor changes:
1) Have the scene from the EC that shows the death of those who go with you as the default scene in the original cut (regardless of EMS). This makes the ending feel pretty bleak, but it would have been obvious what had happened to them. Have the people stepping off the Normandy be different, obviously. Then when the EC gets added you would get the option to save them based on EMS, making the EC a novel DLC instead of fixing problems with the ending DLC.
2) Right after we see the relays 'exploding' have the scenes that were added in the EC showing the Reapers on other worlds leaving/being destroyed, but only for medium EMS (still has Earth getting fried) or high EMS (Earth saved as well). This would have clarified that the galaxy was messed up in low EMS, but could still have been fine for higher EMS, and it would also add to the feeling the player needs at the end of the game that the Reapers have been dealt with (if not outright destroyed).
3) Have the entire EC dialogue of the Catalyst in the ending with the option to Refuse. The EC would then add cut-scenes showing the allied forces being defeated and the Reapers winning before showing the Liara beacon scene.
4) The breathe scene not requiring MP but an insane completionist playthrough.
These changes would have made the ending a lot less objectionable to many right off the bat, and would also make the EC more than just a patch.
I think the ending would have worked better (or at least been met with less initial fan rage and only later be raged after in-depth analysis of the ending) with a few minor changes:
1) Have the scene from the EC that shows the death of those who go with you as the default scene in the original cut (regardless of EMS). This makes the ending feel pretty bleak, but it would have been obvious what had happened to them. Have the people stepping off the Normandy be different, obviously. Then when the EC gets added you would get the option to save them based on EMS, making the EC a novel DLC instead of fixing problems with the ending DLC.
2) Right after we see the relays 'exploding' have the scenes that were added in the EC showing the Reapers on other worlds leaving/being destroyed, but only for medium EMS (still has Earth getting fried) or high EMS (Earth saved as well). This would have clarified that the galaxy was messed up in low EMS, but could still have been fine for higher EMS, and it would also add to the feeling the player needs at the end of the game that the Reapers have been dealt with (if not outright destroyed).
3) Have the entire EC dialogue of the Catalyst in the ending with the option to Refuse. The EC would then add cut-scenes showing the allied forces being defeated and the Reapers winning before showing the Liara beacon scene.
4) The breathe scene not requiring MP but an insane completionist playthrough.
These changes would have made the ending a lot less objectionable to many right off the bat, and would also make the EC more than just a patch.
Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 31 octobre 2012 - 06:49 .
#138
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:48
Tyrannosaurus Rex
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crimzontearz wrote...
I have been sharing that and more for a while but people keep forgetting
Also, in a prior message he let me know that Casey seemed adamant about having a happy non sacrifice ending....god only knows WTF happened to that
Really? That's odd. Part of me thought that it was Casey's idea to have almost always Shepard die in some artistic, symbolic sacrifice BS. So who did come up with the idea, Mac?
#139
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:49
crimzontearz
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no clue...mind you he also told me he was only tangentially involved but he was very sure of it
#140
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:50
Blueprotoss
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Agreed on the history of science fiction part, but if those are recent examples then a lot of things would have copied those "endings". I can't specificly say that he's serious, but some people are sadly serious about that on BSN.MassEffectFShep wrote...
Blueprotoss wrote...
iakus wrote...
Such an ending would be cliched and uncreative. Truly a DXHR rip-off.
Yet I would pay good money to replace the current ending with that, if it meant Shepard could rejoin the crew/LI, look out over a devastated London, and go "What do we do now?"
For Deus Ex to be the originator of those "endings" then DE would have to be one of the 1st science fiction stories to exist especially when Babylon 5, Megaman, Iron Man, Transformers, Blade Runner, Robocop, and the Matrix existed before DE. Its also odd that Blade Runner, Robocop, and the Matrix heavily influenced DE as a series.
i don't think he was asserting that DXHR was the first of its kind to do an ending like this..just a recent example. posts would be really long and painful if we had to recount the history of science fiction endings to make a point.
Modifié par Blueprotoss, 31 octobre 2012 - 06:50 .
#141
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:53
Iakus
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MassEffectFShep wrote...
i don't think he was asserting that DXHR was the first of its kind to do an ending like this..just a recent example. posts would be really long and painful if we had to recount the history of science fiction endings to make a point.
This. And in addition the chocies we do have are often accused of being ripped off from Deus Ex.
#142
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 06:55
Blueprotoss
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If thats the case then you should know that people are effected differently with emotions and to say that something is or isn't emotional to you would be opinion. To be fair emotion is always present but individually we choose to embrace or ignore it.Greylycantrope wrote...
CaptainZaysh wrote...
Are you really arguing for a less emotionally engaging story?
I'm saying I'd like a story to be emotinally engaging but that it shouldn't rely on that alone, emotional mainpulation's not all it's cracked up to be, you need a bit of rational thinking to lead you some place satisfying sometimes. The EC was gushing with emotion but was still unsatsifying for a good chuck of us. Some of the fixes just left more questions.
#143
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 07:58
drayfish
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@ AdmiralCheez:
I largely agree with everything that you are stating so wonderfully, fine AdmiralCheez, although I would take issue with the description of the endings as being in any way arty or thought-provoking ...and with your analogy of Blue from Blue's Clues being decapitated (...not a sentence I would have ever thought I would write). She is responsible for getting the mail, after all.
At best the endings of Mass Effect 3 were to me a clutch of metaphorical vagaries that sketch a ham-fisted moral quandry. In no other medium or narrative would a writer be allowed to employ such a lazy plot device as a magical 'I win' button; to invoke such a blatant deus ex machina in the final minutes of the tale; and to inflict such a thorough, last minute eviceration of theme, without being castigated wildly by criticism.
I was (and have been continued to be) surprised that some have described this ending as bold or original, when literally all of these faults were condemned by critics like Aristotle and Horace over two thousand years ago. These truly are elemental storytelling no nos.
And can people please stop using that cheap, misrepresentative stereotype that anyone who hated the ending just wanted a 'Boo yah' Shepard-rides-into-the-sunset bit of nonsense? While a happy ending would not have been unwelcome, most everyone I know expected to lose Shepard, expected there to ba mass casualties. What we didn;t expect was the very principles that Shepard was fighting for (inclusivity, autonomy, freedom) to be proved hollow buzz words that can be ultimately abandoned in order to 'do what needs to be done'.
And @ magnetite:
There is a big difference between 'getting closure' and having the game sell out everythign that you were fighting for my compelling you to do your enemy's racist bidding in a nihilistic act of desperation that willing inflicts attrocities upon your own people. I personally find it troubling that people are so swift to accept moral apathy in their narratives that they actually scoff at people who are not so willing to surrender their ethics for a 'happy ending'.
I largely agree with everything that you are stating so wonderfully, fine AdmiralCheez, although I would take issue with the description of the endings as being in any way arty or thought-provoking ...and with your analogy of Blue from Blue's Clues being decapitated (...not a sentence I would have ever thought I would write). She is responsible for getting the mail, after all.
At best the endings of Mass Effect 3 were to me a clutch of metaphorical vagaries that sketch a ham-fisted moral quandry. In no other medium or narrative would a writer be allowed to employ such a lazy plot device as a magical 'I win' button; to invoke such a blatant deus ex machina in the final minutes of the tale; and to inflict such a thorough, last minute eviceration of theme, without being castigated wildly by criticism.
I was (and have been continued to be) surprised that some have described this ending as bold or original, when literally all of these faults were condemned by critics like Aristotle and Horace over two thousand years ago. These truly are elemental storytelling no nos.
And can people please stop using that cheap, misrepresentative stereotype that anyone who hated the ending just wanted a 'Boo yah' Shepard-rides-into-the-sunset bit of nonsense? While a happy ending would not have been unwelcome, most everyone I know expected to lose Shepard, expected there to ba mass casualties. What we didn;t expect was the very principles that Shepard was fighting for (inclusivity, autonomy, freedom) to be proved hollow buzz words that can be ultimately abandoned in order to 'do what needs to be done'.
And @ magnetite:
There is a big difference between 'getting closure' and having the game sell out everythign that you were fighting for my compelling you to do your enemy's racist bidding in a nihilistic act of desperation that willing inflicts attrocities upon your own people. I personally find it troubling that people are so swift to accept moral apathy in their narratives that they actually scoff at people who are not so willing to surrender their ethics for a 'happy ending'.
Modifié par drayfish, 31 octobre 2012 - 08:01 .
#144
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 07:59
Arppis
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Wait you guys are still talking about this? *scraches his head*
#145
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 08:37
Blueprotoss
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Deus Ex is far from popular as you say it is until some people got to the end of ME3 and found out what DE was after the small amount of fallout that occured.silverexile17s wrote...
MassEffectFShep wrote...
Blueprotoss wrote...
For Deus Ex to be the originator of those "endings" then DE would have to be one of the 1st science fiction stories to exist especially when Babylon 5, Megaman, Iron Man, Transformers, Blade Runner, Robocop, and the Matrix existed before DE. Its also odd that Blade Runner, Robocop, and the Matrix heavily influenced DE as a series.
i don't think he was asserting that DXHR was the first of its kind to do an ending like this..just a recent example. posts would be really long and painful if we had to recount the history of science fiction endings to make a point.
It's true. Deus Ex may not be where the concept originated, but it's where it became the most famous and popular from.
#146
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 08:38
Blueprotoss
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Sadly this is still going on.Arppis wrote...
Wait you guys are still talking about this? *scraches his head*
#147
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 09:32
silverexile17s
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Strawman strikes again!!Blueprotoss wrote...
Deus Ex is far from popular as you say it is until some people got to the end of ME3 and found out what DE was after the small amount of fallout that occured.silverexile17s wrote...
MassEffectFShep wrote...
Blueprotoss wrote...
For Deus Ex to be the originator of those "endings" then DE would have to be one of the 1st science fiction stories to exist especially when Babylon 5, Megaman, Iron Man, Transformers, Blade Runner, Robocop, and the Matrix existed before DE. Its also odd that Blade Runner, Robocop, and the Matrix heavily influenced DE as a series.
i don't think he was asserting that DXHR was the first of its kind to do an ending like this..just a recent example. posts would be really long and painful if we had to recount the history of science fiction endings to make a point.
It's true. Deus Ex may not be where the concept originated, but it's where it became the most famous and popular from.
EVERYONE knows that seires. The endings were almost INSTANTLY linked with Deus Ex.
#148
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 09:33
silverexile17s
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Reverse logic is stalling the arguement.Blueprotoss wrote...
Sadly this is still going on.Arppis wrote...
Wait you guys are still talking about this? *scraches his head*
#149
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 09:49
frostajulie
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AdmiralCheez wrote...
Okay, I think most people here will agree that ME1 and 2 had awesome endings. Both peaked in emotional/gameplay intensity during the final battle, and both paid off with a resounding victory that, despite hard decisions and potentially massive losses, left the players feeling good about themselves. The minute players go through the Conduit/Omega 4 Relay, all bets are off, and right up until the final scene they're not sure whether they'e going to make it out alive. When Shepard finally stands up triumphant, players get to have a well-deserved "F* YEAH!" moment.
It's a tried and true way to cap off a game, a cliche players love.
But a beloved cliche is still a cliche. Bioware wanted to try something new. However, was that ultimately the best choice? Was it really a good idea to kill off the adrenaline in the final confrontation? Is it really appropriate for Shepard to decide the ultimate fate of the galaxy while standing next to a glowing ghost boy with soft, dreamy music playing in the background? Is it a good thing to deny players the critical "F* YEAH!", and instead bog them down with hazy uncertancies and morally ambiguous decisions that, no matter what they choose, have the potential to make them feel like a monster?
Is it really a good idea to not leave players feeling pumped as hell and good about themselves after investing hundreds of hours (and dollars!) into a series? Isn't this the one time you'd want to go with the "F* YEAH!" moment, even if it is a bit cliche?
I suppose the ending we got would have been an interesting conclusion in a different game (LIKE DEUS EX MAYBE JUST SAYIN), but Mass Effect had already laid out a clear template so far as what players should expect. It was a noble experiment, Bioware, but a failed one.
Sorry, but we (or I, at least) wanted the "F* YEAH!".
Good try, though. And thanks for the EC. I may still wangst about it, but it helped.
PS: Sorry if this thread is incoherent but I'm hella tired.
I do not think there was anything noble about the ending or the attempt to break cliche but I do agree with everything else you posted and because of that my opinion is more than slightly colored by the epic disappointment and let down engendered by the writers denying me my **** Yeah moment.
This is what was needed to save that craptastic ending
I wanted the fck yeah moment
#150
Posté 31 octobre 2012 - 10:23
GreyLycanTrope
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Wouldn't suprise me, Arrival seems very telling to of his writing style.Lizardviking wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
I have been sharing that and more for a while but people keep forgetting
Also, in a prior message he let me know that Casey seemed adamant about having a happy non sacrifice ending....god only knows WTF happened to that
Really? That's odd. Part of me thought that it was Casey's idea to have almost always Shepard die in some artistic, symbolic sacrifice BS. So who did come up with the idea, Mac?
