253 réponses à ce sujet

[NuclearTech76]

Perhaps a better question would be in light of the significant DPS advantage of combat classes, do BEs need a significant buff?

[NuclearTech76]

OniGanon wrote...

Control, mostly. Tech powers and comboes can bring a bit of control with powers like Overload, but they can't do it as reliably, as powerfully and in as wide an aoe as Biotics can.

Also... Warp + Incendiary Ammo =

That is almost cheating. Not really an intended game mechanic.

[Asebstos]

Biotic classes tend to synergize better than combat classes. Many combat classes have grenade powers, which means they don't really play well with others since they're all competing for the same resource. Multiple Biotic teammates in the same lobby, especially if they all have biotic primers and detonators, means near constant BEs, which really ramps up the DPS.

[Fortack]

TheThirdRace wrote...

Maybe you're right... I still think Adepts are more squishy than any other class even with their powers. I play 95% of the time as an Adept and almost exclusively on Platinum and they do drop like flies, even the Justicar. Not saying you're wrong, only stating that on Platinum it all comes down to how fast you can dispatch the enemy because 3 shots in a row kills you. Since biotic explosions are slower to pull out, Adepts die more often even if they do a lot of damage with their biotic explosions.

Of course I am right. I'm Lord High Researcher in matters scientific for Clan Urdnot. If you disagree I'll kill you

Seriously though, I like playing squishy characters and go rambo b/c IMO it's a lot more fun to use their powers in a smart way to avoid taking damage than to play a tanky character who has no brains but soaks up tons of damage with a smile.

Platinum is boss horde mode. It's terribly balanced and since you're fighting mostly boss level enemies CC is pretty useless. I prefer Gold b/c it has a good mix of all enemy types and you can use a much wider variety of tactics to be successful yet a small mistake will get you killed. Adepts can still be very strong on Platinum but only for mass BEs and/or debuffing. Not my kind of thing coz the one thing I like best of biotics is CC (since ME1).

[NuclearTech76]

Asebstos wrote...

Biotic classes tend to synergize better than combat classes. Many combat classes have grenade powers, which means they don't really play well with others since they're all competing for the same resource. Multiple Biotic teammates in the same lobby, especially if they all have biotic primers and detonators, means near constant BEs, which really ramps up the DPS.

This I will grant you, even ammo on platinum is very difficult to get much less grenades. A team of biotics can dish out good damage without having as much demand for resources from the ammo boxes. However, I would still advocate a buff given most of the biotics squishiness. They are supposed to be powerful and they are pretty underwhelming for the most part when compared to almost any infiltrator, most soldiers, and most engineers.

[capn233]

They need more win sauce from ME1. I suggest replacing Pull Evolution 6 with Master Lift, which allows you to lift an Atlas.

Either that or leave them mostly alone since they are still very powerful and don't require much aiming.

Modifié par capn233, 01 novembre 2012 - 03:52 .

[Zancloufer]

Fortack wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

[...] combat classes that have superior weapon damage to biotics.

Uh, there are biotic powers that debuff enemies and increase weapon damage. Add Warp Ammo and and they are equal (if not far beyond) the damage bonuses Combat Powers provide. Warp Ammo IV, for example, gives a 120% damage bonus vs primed targets.

You make it sound like the only point of biotic powers is to create explosions. There's a lot more to em than that, as others already pointed out.

Does Warp Ammo IV really give +120% damage vs primed targets?  If so why doesn't EVERYONE run around with Warp ammo + a class with Warp?  Could stack 100% armour weakening and a 125%+ damage amp.  With things like a Reegar Carbine the Krogan Shaman could in theory with Warp ammo III just melt EVERYTHING (Like Gold Banshee dead in 1 clip everything).

Might want to try this now.  Wasn't sure how to spec/play him just getting him yesterday but this (if it works) gives me evil ideas . . .

[Fortack]

Zancloufer wrote...

Fortack wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

[...] combat classes that have superior weapon damage to biotics.

Uh, there are biotic powers that debuff enemies and increase weapon damage. Add Warp Ammo and and they are equal (if not far beyond) the damage bonuses Combat Powers provide. Warp Ammo IV, for example, gives a 120% damage bonus vs primed targets.

You make it sound like the only point of biotic powers is to create explosions. There's a lot more to em than that, as others already pointed out.

Does Warp Ammo IV really give +120% damage vs primed targets?  If so why doesn't EVERYONE run around with Warp ammo + a class with Warp?  Could stack 100% armour weakening and a 125%+ damage amp.  With things like a Reegar Carbine the Krogan Shaman could in theory with Warp ammo III just melt EVERYTHING (Like Gold Banshee dead in 1 clip everything).

Might want to try this now.  Wasn't sure how to spec/play him just getting him yesterday but this (if it works) gives me evil ideas . . .

Cyonan ran some tests, here's the topic : social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/14719565

Here's a Platinum solo video with someone using Warp IV rounds on a Hurricane. Just watch how fast it goes through armor when enemies are inside the AF : www.youtube.com/watch

[NuclearTech76]

Zancloufer wrote...

Fortack wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

[...] combat classes that have superior weapon damage to biotics.

Uh, there are biotic powers that debuff enemies and increase weapon damage. Add Warp Ammo and and they are equal (if not far beyond) the damage bonuses Combat Powers provide. Warp Ammo IV, for example, gives a 120% damage bonus vs primed targets.

You make it sound like the only point of biotic powers is to create explosions. There's a lot more to em than that, as others already pointed out.

Does Warp Ammo IV really give +120% damage vs primed targets?  If so why doesn't EVERYONE run around with Warp ammo + a class with Warp?  Could stack 100% armour weakening and a 125%+ damage amp.  With things like a Reegar Carbine the Krogan Shaman could in theory with Warp ammo III just melt EVERYTHING (Like Gold Banshee dead in 1 clip everything).

Might want to try this now.  Wasn't sure how to spec/play him just getting him yesterday but this (if it works) gives me evil ideas . . .

Try incendiary ammo plus a class with warp after that.

[TheThirdRace]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Perhaps a better question would be in light of the significant DPS advantage of combat classes, do BEs need a significant buff?

The short answer would be: No.

The problem with biotic explosions is not their damage, it's the time required to detonate one. Slightly reducing the cooldowns on most of the powers with a 8 seconds base cooldown value to 6 seconds, would yield a difference of half a second. The choice of a base cooldown value of 6 is just for an example, it could be anywhere between 6 and 8 for it to make it more acceptable (7 seems a good starting point).

Lets make the math with Warp:
- Base cooldown: 8 seconds
- Loadout cooldown: 200%
- Warp skill #2 (Recharge speed): 25%
- Warp evo #6 (Recharge speed): 35%

So with the base Warp (no skills) you have a cooldown of 8 / (1 + 2) = 2.66 seconds
With skill #2 only you have a cooldown of 8 / (1 + 2 + 0.25) = 2.46 seconds
With evolution #6 you have a cooldown of 8 / (1 + 2 + 0.25 + 0.35) = 2.22 seconds

Now lets make the math with a 6 seconds base cooldown instead of 8
So with the base Warp (no skills) you have a cooldown of 6 / (1 + 2) = 2 seconds
With skill #2 only you have a cooldown of 6 / (1 + 2 + 0.25) = 1.84 seconds
With evolution #6 you have a cooldown of 6 / (1 + 2 + 0.25 + 0.35) = 1.66 seconds

So the diffence between the 2 base cooldowns are
2.66 vs 2 = 0.66 seconds
2.46 vs 1.84 = 0.62 seconds
2.22 vs 1.66 = 0.56 seconds

That "half" seconds would give a small boost to DPS using biotics without changing the damage of biotic explosions. It would also allow Adepts to be more effective in a team with no other biotics.

As for the argument of a team of 4 Adepts would now decimate things, well it's a matter of opinion. I played teams with 4 biotics before (still do some times) and we decimate things, but we consistently take more time to extract on Platinum than with a pure weapon/tech team composed of the same players. 4 Geth Infiltrators will almost always extract before 4 biotics, 4 Destroyers too. There is also a big caveat of using a team of 4 biotics: you have to use different kit because you can't detonate your teammate's Warp with your own Warp. So you need much more tactics and timing to pull of that kind of team and in the end you still extract in longer times.

Edit:
After some calculations, maybe the best base cooldown would be 6.5 seconds.
So with the base Warp (no skills) you have a cooldown of 6.5 / (1 + 2) = 2.17 seconds
With skill #2 only you have a cooldown of 6.5 / (1 + 2 + 0.25) = 2.00 seconds
With evolution #6 you have a cooldown of 6.5 / (1 + 2 + 0.25 + 0.35) = 1.81 seconds

So the diffence between the 2 base cooldowns are
2.66 vs 2.17 = 0.49 seconds
2.46 vs 2.00 = 0.46 seconds
2.22 vs 1.81 = 0.41 seconds

Modifié par TheThirdRace, 01 novembre 2012 - 05:40 .

[NuclearTech76]

TheThirdRace wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Perhaps a better question would be in light of the significant DPS advantage of combat classes, do BEs need a significant buff?

The short answer would be: No.

The problem with biotic explosions is not their damage, it's the time required to detonate one. Slightly reducing the cooldowns on most of the powers with a 8 seconds base cooldown value to 6 seconds, would yield a difference of half a second. The choice of a base cooldown value of 6 is just for an example, it could be anywhere between 6 and 8 for it to make it more acceptable (7 seems a good starting point).

Lets make the math with Warp:
- Base cooldown: 8 seconds
- Loadout cooldown: 200%
- Warp skill #2 (Recharge speed): 25%
- Warp evo #6 (Recharge speed): 35%

So with the base Warp (no skills) you have a cooldown of 8 / (1 + 2) = 2.66 seconds
With skill #2 only you have a cooldown of 8 / (1 + 2 + 0.25) = 2.46 seconds
With evolution #6 you have a cooldown of 8 / (1 + 2 + 0.25 + 0.35) = 2.22 seconds

Now lets make the math with a 6 seconds base cooldown instead of 8
So with the base Warp (no skills) you have a cooldown of 6 / (1 + 2) = 2 seconds
With skill #2 only you have a cooldown of 6 / (1 + 2 + 0.25) = 1.84 seconds
With evolution #6 you have a cooldown of 6 / (1 + 2 + 0.25 + 0.35) = 1.66 seconds

So the diffence between the 2 base cooldown s are
2.66 vs 2 = 0.66 seconds
2.46 vs 1.84 = 0.62 seconds
2.22 vs 1.66 = 0.56 seconds

That "half" seconds would give a small boost to DPS using biotics without changing the damage of biotic explosions. It would also allow Adepts to be more effective in a team with no other biotics.

As for the argument of a team of 4 Adepts would now decimate things, well it's a matter of opinion. I played teams with 4 biotics before (still do some times) and we decimate things, but we consistently take more time to extract on Platinum than with a pure weapon/tech team composed of the same players. 4 Geth Infiltrators will almost always extract before 4 biotics, 4 Destroyers too. There is also a big caveat of using a team of 4 biotics: you have to use different kit because you can't detonate your teammate's Warp with your own Warp. So you need much more tactics and timing to pull of that kind of team and in the end you still extract in longer times.

Agreed. Speed isn't everything but it does point to a significant DPS advantage. 4 GI will outpace pretty much everything but there are several classes that you have to go through before you reach an adept that has superior DPS outside of maybe the DA.

[TheThirdRace]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Agreed. Speed isn't everything but it does point to a significant DPS advantage. 4 GI will outpace pretty much everything but there are several classes that you have to go through before you reach an adept that has superior DPS outside of maybe the DA.

Yeah, people tend to forget that DPS isn't only about the damage, but also the speed you can dispatch it.

As for the Drell Adept, even if it has a great DPS, it's still more squishy with his half shield and he's limited by the number of grenades you carry. The Grenade gear helps a lot in his case.

[TommyNg]

Biotic should be equally powerful to tech , because its not fair that adept better than engineer

[Fortack]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Agreed. Speed isn't everything but it does point to a significant DPS advantage. 4 GI will outpace pretty much everything but there are several classes that you have to go through before you reach an adept that has superior DPS outside of maybe the DA.

You forget that GI's (or everyone else who use weapons as their main supply of damage) need good weapons first. It takes quite some time (or money) to get those gun whereas Adepts can deal high damage from the get go. Furthermore, GI's are (more or less) single target combatants. Adepts are very good at dealing good damage to multiple (closely packed) enemies.

[bogsters23]

favorite biotic asari valkyrie.  you can detonate your own BE's easily.  i play her fury style i have not tried the debuff one.  it's just fun to charge to bosses and asari dodge as you detonate your BE's.  i can pretty much kill almost all enemies with one explosion and few shots with my talon.

[whateverman7]

NuclearTech76 wrote...
Yeah I know my biotics get the hearty weapon bonuses that combat classes do.

Would anyone argue that combat classes have gotten much stronger since the start of the game with the new shield gating reduction and weapon damage buffs? Would anyone argue that biotics have gotten weaker? As stand alone characters they are much weaker, and squisher than other characters for the most part.

what bonuses make weapon classes better? making the gun shoot faster? hit harder? carry more ammo?....with the mods, biotics can do all those too, except increase rate of fire....you could make a case if biotics couldnt carry the same weapons as weapon classes, but they can....also, they have the most important bonus: the option of making a weapon do more damage.....

there is no such thing as 'combat' classes.....all the classes are used for combat, they just do it differently....now, there are weapon characters, and they have gotten better...but so have biotic characters....also, as stand alone characters, they arent weaker...in most cases, they can do more damage than weapon characters, cause they do damage with both powers and weapons, and not just weapons...

...it just seems you dont like biotic characters, which is cool....but what you're saying, is not true....

[whateverman7]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Perhaps a better question would be in light of the significant DPS advantage of combat classes, do BEs need a significant buff?

no...if they buff them, they'd be close to overpowered....also, you'd be having this same thread, except the question would be reversed....you'd be asking why choose a weapon character over a biotic character...

[NuclearTech76]

Fortack wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Agreed. Speed isn't everything but it does point to a significant DPS advantage. 4 GI will outpace pretty much everything but there are several classes that you have to go through before you reach an adept that has superior DPS outside of maybe the DA.

You forget that GI's (or everyone else who use weapons as their main supply of damage) need good weapons first. It takes quite some time (or money) to get those gun whereas Adepts can deal high damage from the get go. Furthermore, GI's are (more or less) single target combatants. Adepts are very good at dealing good damage to multiple (closely packed) enemies.

Oh be honest now a GI can make a paperclip a deadly weapon. Single target maybe but they can take down multiple single targets faster than biotics can. The proof is in almost every speed run video you will find. 

[NuclearTech76]

whateverman7 wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...
Yeah I know my biotics get the hearty weapon bonuses that combat classes do.

Would anyone argue that combat classes have gotten much stronger since the start of the game with the new shield gating reduction and weapon damage buffs? Would anyone argue that biotics have gotten weaker? As stand alone characters they are much weaker, and squisher than other characters for the most part.

what bonuses make weapon classes better? making the gun shoot faster? hit harder? carry more ammo?....with the mods, biotics can do all those too, except increase rate of fire....you could make a case if biotics couldnt carry the same weapons as weapon classes, but they can....also, they have the most important bonus: the option of making a weapon do more damage.....

there is no such thing as 'combat' classes.....all the classes are used for combat, they just do it differently....now, there are weapon characters, and they have gotten better...but so have biotic characters....also, as stand alone characters, they arent weaker...in most cases, they can do more damage than weapon characters, cause they do damage with both powers and weapons, and not just weapons...

...it just seems you dont like biotic characters, which is cool....but what you're saying, is not true....

Obviously I despise biotics, which is why I made a thread advocating them getting buffs to their powers.

If you don't understand the bonuses that apply to weapon based/combat classes that is more than I care to get into.

[NuclearTech76]

bogsters23 wrote...

favorite biotic asari valkyrie.  you can detonate your own BE's easily.  i play her fury style i have not tried the debuff one.  it's just fun to charge to bosses and asari dodge as you detonate your BE's.  i can pretty much kill almost all enemies with one explosion and few shots with my talon.

The Fury and Valkyrie are two of my favorites but they both suffer from the AF bug at the most inopportune times.

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Perhaps a better question would be in light of the significant DPS advantage of combat classes, do BEs need a significant buff?

no...if they buff them, they'd be close to overpowered....also, you'd be having this same thread, except the question would be reversed....you'd be asking why choose a weapon character over a biotic character...

Except the goal is not to buff them so they are overpowered, but to buff them in a way that give them equal footing as weapon/tech classes.

[whateverman7]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Obviously I despise biotics, which is why I made a thread advocating them getting buffs to their powers.

If you don't understand the bonuses that apply to weapon based/combat classes that is more than I care to get into.

where is that thread, cause this surely isnt it

i understand and know of all the bonuses in the game, just curious which ones you're talking about that make weapon characters so much better than biotics....

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

Except the goal is not to buff them so they are overpowered, but to buff them in a way that give them equal footing as weapon/tech classes.

that's the thing: they are on equal footing with tech/weapon characters....if they buffed them how yall want, they'd be close to, if not,  overpowered....

curious: what biotic characters are yall talking about that are so underpowered in comparison to weapon/tech characters?

[drmoose00]

i still love playing them, and I do in gold frequently (yestreday found a PUG all biotics on geth London gold and it was a blast). They can hold their own in gold usually, although if the rest of the team are heavy hitters, then maybe not so much.

that said, I never see them in Platinum, and have found them to be somewhat useless there. All I see are infiltrators, engineers, and soldies.

[wk38]

The HA recently got a new and improved singularity that works on everything, gives DOT, and can set off multiple BE (if there are multiple enemies in the area)... (a friend and I have found that this class and the vorcha with flamer are a great team for lots of explosions of different types and crazy damage over time).

The AJ with a piranha X and acolyte x with ultralight materials still has a decent speed on cooldown... so you have pull+reave for weaker enemies, and reave+biotic sphere for armor... Reave+Sphere gives you one BE when set, and then immediately another because they'll be inside it, and it's one of the best (if not the best, comparable to Tac scan) at debuffing enemies, and anyone who wanders inside can be reaved for BE... if you also use incendiary ammo you can then also set off a fire explosion... if you'd even need to (and no it doesn't take that long to setup)...

and everyone knows how good the fury is... so yes there is still reason to play them...
While the tech and combat power characters can set off cryo, fire, and tech bursts, the adepts can set off all of those and BE. Warp plus incendiary ammo is amazing against bosses too..

Maybe some have less health, but they are still very effective... if you'd rather just use a GI or Destroyer that's your choice, but to answer your original question, YES there is still plenty reason to play biotic characters... They give you stagger, DOT, debuffing and explosions, what more do you need?