253 réponses à ce sujet

[Xariann]

Bzilla wrote...

SavagelyEpic wrote...

Biotics can now detonate even MORE explosions and that somehow makes them less useful?


Okay.

This. You can now cause FEs and BEs consecutively.

I'm still partial to biotics over tech or combat classes.

Ditto. If a Quarian engineer casts incinerate on a brute for example, and a human adept fires his/her biotics twice, he/she will get two explosions.

[wk38]

whateverman7 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

Except the goal is not to buff them so they are overpowered, but to buff them in a way that give them equal footing as weapon/tech classes.

that's the thing: they are on equal footing with tech/weapon characters....if they buffed them how yall want, they'd be close to, if not,  overpowered....

curious: what biotic characters are yall talking about that are so underpowered in comparison to weapon/tech characters?

Exactly give examples rather than make a general statement...  you can't possibly tell me that the GI has more health than some of the adepts (unless you're not using hunter mode, but then you're not doing as much damage as you could be)...

[wk38]

Xariann wrote...

Bzilla wrote...

SavagelyEpic wrote...

Biotics can now detonate even MORE explosions and that somehow makes them less useful?


Okay.

This. You can now cause FEs and BEs consecutively.

I'm still partial to biotics over tech or combat classes.

Ditto. If a Quarian engineer casts incinerate on a brute for example, and a human adept fires his/her biotics twice, he/she will get two explosions.

This.  People seem to forget about this... just because you warped something, then someone hit the same target with overload doesn't mean your warp effect is gone... use throw twice and you have 2 explosions... that's a lot of damage and crowd control... which is also why everyone claiming that it's pointless to play an adept if no one else on your team is playing an adept are completely wrong... 

Modifié par wk38, 01 novembre 2012 - 06:36 .

[doozerdude]

Increase all adept's barriers by 15%, heavy melee (non krogan) detonates biotic combos.

Edit: Also, passive training power damage increases damage of combos

Modifié par doozerdude, 01 novembre 2012 - 06:37 .

[Clayless]

Volkai7 wrote...

Biotics are no longer BETTER than tech/combat classes, so if you're looking for a 'best' class, then biotics no longer stand out.

However, Biotics are still equal in power to tech and combat classes, so they're still entirely viable.

This.

Seriously what biotics are you talking about OP? The Fury? No. The Justicar? No. The Drell? No. The Vanguards? No.

In fact Engineers are much rarer than biotics.

[john-in-france]

I used to use AA all the time, then we had adjustments and then the crappy lag every other match or just from wave 6 (don't ask, but that seems to be the magic number) and my AA became a liability. I can now see why people spec her for Asari Sniper...after all if it takes you over 5 seconds to follow up stasis due to lagggity maclag, a gun shot is more effective.

On paper and with a local team/friends then Biotics still rule, with PuGs and random ping....hahahahhaaa

[megabeast37215]

Here's the reason why Biotics are worth taking over combat classes: Warp Ammo.

Warp ammo IV does + 100% Biotic bonus damage, what does that mean? Mr. Fagnan said it means, "Any target primed for biotic explosion, receives the Biotic bonus damage." (Do not ask me for the link... last time I found it, it was on page 25, and that was 3 days ago)

So.. the reason that matters, is that you can Reave/Singularity/any biotic primer an enemy, and get +100% weapon damage with Warp ammo IV. 75% with Warp ammo III...

This is the buff to biotics that we've been waiting for... and it puts them TOTALLY on par with other weapon classes.

[NuclearTech76]

whateverman7 wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Obviously I despise biotics, which is why I made a thread advocating them getting buffs to their powers.

If you don't understand the bonuses that apply to weapon based/combat classes that is more than I care to get into.

where is that thread, cause this surely isnt it

i understand and know of all the bonuses in the game, just curious which ones you're talking about that make weapon characters so much better than biotics....

Are you being intentionally dense or did you just suffer a massive reading comprehension fail? Notice the buff the biotics part of the intial post.

[TheThirdRace]

megabeast37215 wrote...

Here's the reason why Biotics are worth taking over combat classes: Warp Ammo.

Warp ammo IV does + 100% Biotic bonus damage, what does that mean? Mr. Fagnan said it means, "Any target primed for biotic explosion, receives the Biotic bonus damage." (Do not ask me for the link... last time I found it, it was on page 25, and that was 3 days ago)

So.. the reason that matters, is that you can Reave/Singularity/any biotic primer an enemy, and get +100% weapon damage with Warp ammo IV. 75% with Warp ammo III...

This is the buff to biotics that we've been waiting for... and it puts them TOTALLY on par with other weapon classes.

I know we have our differences when it comes to Adept, and this is one more example. To "correct" the lack of power of biotics, they boosted their weapon damage instead of adjusting the problem: their powers.

There also something people that argue against me tend to forget. When I play an Adept, it's for biotic explosions first and foremost, not for the weapons, not for detonating fire explosions. It's nice to be able to use weapons and detonate fire explosions, but that's not why you want to play an Adept. If I wanted to play like that, I'd chose a different class.

Adepts might be overpowered on Bronze and Silver, but on Gold they slide to very good and Platinum to slightly better than good. People say Adepts are "overpowered" but they talk about the Fury 90% of the time. What about the Phoenix Adept that is just bad. How about the Justicar on Platinum where Pull + Reave is much harder to do and the Bubble is nowhere near as usefull when you need to move around?  What happens to the Drell Adept if he can't use a Gear that give him extra grenade capacity, isn't he severly limited then? And how about the Human Adept (my favorite) which now cannot do a combo in less than 2.22 seconds, which means to prime + detonate + prime, it now needs 4.5 seconds, enough times for any other class to melt the enemy before you can. The Asari is good, but it's Stasis isn't really great on Platinum... The Krogan Shaman is pretty good, even if the Shockwave has a limited use, although his Krogan health & shield helps a lot for his goodness. I won't talk about the Volus since it's a support character, but don't tell me he wrecks havok on Platinum either... So what Adept did I left out, what Adept is really a force to be reckoned with, an Adept that can rival Demolisher, GI or Destroyers? Oh yeah, the sole example you always repeat to describe the Adepts: the Fury... So, if I resume the only argument you give us to say the Adepts don't need a small boost is to give the only Adept that can spam biotic explosion all day with virtually no weakness whatsoever...

As an example, if you built your own house and forgot to put some power socket in the living room. Using a 30 feet power cord extension coming from your bedroom would solve the problem, but I'm pretty sure you would agree the right solution is to install power sockets in the living room to solve the problem at its roots. Sometimes slapping some makeup won't make you prettier, if you know what I mean

I know you won't agree with me, and I respect that. We're not asking for the moon here, we're asking small changes like a biotic power should detonate a biotic primer before detonating a fire explosion and to reduce slightly the base cooldown of some powers so they can get closer to the Fury while still being a long way from. Is it that much impossible to understand? Or you gonna say that the solution to a power problem is to slap a weapon boost?

Modifié par TheThirdRace, 01 novembre 2012 - 07:44 .

[whateverman7]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Are you being intentionally dense or did you just suffer a massive reading comprehension fail? Notice the buff the biotics part of the intial post.

challenge/dont agree with what someone said, instead of justifying/giving examples/backing up their stance/claims, they go with insults...good ole bsn

you mention in 1 sentence maybe a slight damage buff...that doesnt negate the rest of the bashing and asking why choose a biotic character over a weapon/tech one in your initial post....which surely doesnt make this a 'buff biotics' thread...if you wanted to do a thread like that, you wouldve done a thread like that

[A Wild Snorlax]

Both drell are very powerful.

Warp + incendiary is another good one.

As for the normal biotic classes not really no, they are a bit underpowered imo.

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

I know we have our differences when it comes to Adept, and this is one more example. To "correct" the lack of power of biotics, they boosted their weapon damage instead of adjusting the problem: their powers.

There also something people that argue against me tend to forget. When I play an Adept, it's for biotic explosions first and foremost, not for the weapons, not for detonating fire explosions. It's nice to be able to use weapons and detonate fire explosions, but that's not why you want to play an Adept. If I wanted to play like that, I'd chose a different class.

Adepts might be overpowered on Bronze and Silver, but on Gold they slide to very good and Platinum to slightly better than good. People say Adepts are "overpowered" but they talk about the Fury 90% of the time. What about the Phoenix Adept that is just bad. How about the Justicar on Platinum where Pull + Reave is much harder to do and the Bubble is nowhere near as usefull when you need to move around?  What happens to the Drell Adept if he can't use a Gear that give him extra grenade capacity, isn't he severly limited then? And how about the Human Adept (my favorite) which now cannot do a combo in less than 2.22 seconds, which means to prime + detonate + prime, it now needs 4.5 seconds, enough times for any other class to melt the enemy before you can. The Asari is good, but it's Stasis isn't really great on Platinum... The Krogan Shaman is pretty good, even if the Shockwave has a limited use, although his Krogan health & shield helps a lot for his goodness. I won't talk about the Volus since it's a support character, but don't tell me he wrecks havok on Platinum either... So what Adept did I left out, what Adept is really a force to be reckoned with, an Adept that can rival Demolisher, GI or Destroyers? Oh yeah, the sole example you always repeat to describe the Adepts: the Fury... So, if I resume the only argument you give us to say the Adepts don't need a small boost is to give the only Adept that can spam biotic explosion all day with virtually no weakness whatsoever...

As an example, if you built your own house and forgot to put some power socket in the living room. Using a 30 feet power cord extension coming from your bedroom would solve the problem, but I'm pretty sure you would agree the right solution is to install power sockets in the living room to solve the problem at its roots. Sometimes slapping some makeup won't make you prettier, if you know what I mean

I know you won't agree with me, and I respect that. We're not asking for the moon here, we're asking small changes like a biotic power should detonate a biotic primer before detonating a fire explosion and to reduce slightly the base cooldown of some powers so they can get closer to the Fury while still being a long way from. Is it that much impossible to understand? Or you gonna say that the solution to a power problem is to slap a weapon boost?

i'm not talking about the fury specifically being overpowered, i'm talking about all them in general if they buffed them.... they would be very close, if not, overpowered....cause what you and others seem to be forgetting: just like there are weapon mods, there are biotic mods....mods that can increase all your biotic powers...if the base of the powers was increased, add on a mod, that's overpowered....

all the characters have pros/cons, so it boils down to how you use them....you can take any of the adepts and put in work, on all levels of difficulties...you want an adept that can rival the demo, GI, & destroyer? the drell says hi...

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

i'm not talking about the fury specifically being overpowered, i'm talking about all them in general if they buffed them.... they would be very close, if not, overpowered....cause what you and others seem to be forgetting: just like there are weapon mods, there are biotic mods....mods that can increase all your biotic powers...if the base of the powers was increased, add on a mod, that's overpowered....

all the characters have pros/cons, so it boils down to how you use them....you can take any of the adepts and put in work, on all levels of difficulties...you want an adept that can rival the demo, GI, & destroyer? the drell says hi...

Take for example the Adaptative War Amp on Warp. Warp does 250 base damage, so the added 15% do 37.5 more damage. The typical Warp (evo 2/4/5) can be done every 2.46s so the 37.5 damage has a DPS of 15.24 with perfect timing. You now have a typical Warp that does a total of 337.5 damage which gives a DPS of 137.2.  Since Adaptative War Amp affect power damage, it doesn't affect biotic explosions in any way. What you can conclude from this is that you really need a weapon or a biotic explosion to really do some damage.

So now take the Avenger X, no mods, no ammo. It does 48.2 damage with a rate of fire of 500 PRM which give a sustained DPS of 327.9 (taken from the manifest detailer). We already have an higher DPS for the Avenger over Warp before we even slap an equivalent gear on. And we all know how much the Avenger sucks. Do I really need to continue the explaination or I already made my point?

People tend to forget that using powers isn't instantenous either so the time the casting animation is playing, you can't fire you gun either. So alternating between shooting and using powers is slower than just shooting unless the damage coming from your power somehow do the same DPS as your gun. That's why biotic explosions exist in the first place, Bioware needs them to balance things out. More often than not, it takes more time to detonate a biotic explosion than just shoot the enemy and kill it. Now that fire/cryo explosions are all over the place it's somewhat even harder to pull off a biotic explosion. Granted, fire/cryo explosions are nice, but if I wanted to do fire/cryo explosions all day long, I would have played another class, not the Adept.

To that extent, what I'm suggesting is not to boost the powers of Adepts beyond the weapon and tech classes, but to allow Adepts to reduce the time needed for their biotic explosions. There are 2 main things that can be done to allow this.

First, you could give priority to explosions from the same type as the detonator, meaning a biotic detonator would always detonate a biotic primer first. If there's not biotic primer, it would then proceed with a fire/cryo/tech detonation if possible. The same principle should also apply to all type of explosions, meaning fire should prioritize fire explosion, etc.  That would effectively reduce the time for a biotic user to detonate biotic explosions because it wouldn't have to bother with less effective explosions first.

The second thing that can be done to reduce the timed needed for their biotic explosions is to actually reduce the base cooldown on some "long" powers. I've provided an example with Warp using a base cooldown of 6.5  seconds instead of 8 that would give between a boost of 0.41 to 0.49 second. That's not extraordinary, but that's a start and I still shaved 1.5 seconds from the base cooldown. No amount of "added power damage" will have any real effect on the DPS of powers, but now that the biotic explosions happens less than half a second faster, the DPS is slightly better. Since the cooldown is lower, the Adept will probably spend more time casting powers but that balance itself because of the animation time so there will be less time shooting.

As for the damage of biotic explosions, it is great but it also have a diminishing return on a lot of enemies. If you do 4000 damage on an enemy that has only 1000 health, you waste 3000 damage. So doing 3000 or 10000 damage is irrelevant in this instance because 1000 is all you need. A gun will likely do less damage, but won't waste that much damage on the enemy. That means that a gun will kill the enemy relatively faster than powers because they have a lesser threshold (cooldown) than powers. That's also why I don't think the changes I suggest would put Adepts in the overpowered category.

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

Take for example the Adaptative War Amp on Warp. Warp does 250 base damage, so the added 15% do 37.5 more damage. The typical Warp (evo 2/4/5) can be done every 2.46s so the 37.5 damage has a DPS of 15.24 with perfect timing. You now have a typical Warp that does a total of 337.5 damage which gives a DPS of 137.2.  Since Adaptative War Amp affect power damage, it doesn't affect biotic explosions in any way. What you can conclude from this is that you really need a weapon or a biotic explosion to really do some damage.

So now take the Avenger X, no mods, no ammo. It does 48.2 damage with a rate of fire of 500 PRM which give a sustained DPS of 327.9 (taken from the manifest detailer). We already have an higher DPS for the Avenger over Warp before we even slap an equivalent gear on. And we all know how much the Avenger sucks. Do I really need to continue the explaination or I already made my point?

People tend to forget that using powers isn't instantenous either so the time the casting animation is playing, you can't fire you gun either. So alternating between shooting and using powers is slower than just shooting unless the damage coming from your power somehow do the same DPS as your gun. That's why biotic explosions exist in the first place, Bioware needs them to balance things out. More often than not, it takes more time to detonate a biotic explosion than just shoot the enemy and kill it. Now that fire/cryo explosions are all over the place it's somewhat even harder to pull off a biotic explosion. Granted, fire/cryo explosions are nice, but if I wanted to do fire/cryo explosions all day long, I would have played another class, not the Adept.

To that extent, what I'm suggesting is not to boost the powers of Adepts beyond the weapon and tech classes, but to allow Adepts to reduce the time needed for their biotic explosions. There are 2 main things that can be done to allow this.

First, you could give priority to explosions from the same type as the detonator, meaning a biotic detonator would always detonate a biotic primer first. If there's not biotic primer, it would then proceed with a fire/cryo/tech detonation if possible. The same principle should also apply to all type of explosions, meaning fire should prioritize fire explosion, etc.  That would effectively reduce the time for a biotic user to detonate biotic explosions because it wouldn't have to bother with less effective explosions first.

The second thing that can be done to reduce the timed needed for their biotic explosions is to actually reduce the base cooldown on some "long" powers. I've provided an example with Warp using a base cooldown of 6.5  seconds instead of 8 that would give between a boost of 0.41 to 0.49 second. That's not extraordinary, but that's a start and I still shaved 1.5 seconds from the base cooldown. No amount of "added power damage" will have any real effect on the DPS of powers, but now that the biotic explosions happens less than half a second faster, the DPS is slightly better. Since the cooldown is lower, the Adept will probably spend more time casting powers but that balance itself because of the animation time so there will be less time shooting.

As for the damage of biotic explosions, it is great but it also have a diminishing return on a lot of enemies. If you do 4000 damage on an enemy that has only 1000 health, you waste 3000 damage. So doing 3000 or 10000 damage is irrelevant in this instance because 1000 is all you need. A gun will likely do less damage, but won't waste that much damage on the enemy. That means that a gun will kill the enemy relatively faster than powers because they have a lesser threshold (cooldown) than powers. That's also why I don't think the changes I suggest would put Adepts in the overpowered category.

so what about the mods (not gear, mods) that increase power recharde speed? increase power damage?

everything you typed is nicely written and presented, but it's not true....right now, the adepts are just as viable/strong/(insert whatever word you want), as the weapon/tech characters....no type of character is overshadowing another type like that...they all have pros/cons, and all can be used on any difficulty level

[corporal doody]

ASARI

[Taritu]

They need to reduce the mobs dodging biotic abilities by a LOT. Rebuffing BEs back to 4 meters also would be good. But the problem is mostly in the older classes: the AA is now, imo, essentially trash (yes, I can play her fine, top the boards, blah, but I will do better with almost any other class.)

(Yes, the fury and the Valkyrie are fine.)

Modifié par Taritu, 01 novembre 2012 - 10:37 .

[Parallax Demon]

Volkai7 wrote...

Biotics are no longer BETTER than tech/combat classes, so if you're looking for a 'best' class, then biotics no longer stand out.

However, Biotics are still equal in power to tech and combat classes, so they're still entirely viable.

In PUG's? Just no!

Way too many powers / ammo types makes BE's almost impossible in PUG's.

An all Biotic team does some serious damage, but 3 Biotics and one TGI, specced with overload and using Disruptor rounds can turn a easy Gold game into a complete nightmare.

[FlowCytometry]

Most of the power creep that's helped the player-side of things has been applied to weapons over powers. Part of the reason is less scaling factors- powers don't get as many potential modifiers to their base as weapons can due to mods- but also one has to consider that most powers offer control *with* damage. If you look at the 'control' weapons (falcon, nerfed krysae, scorp, etc), they are also less damage overall vs. other weapons, so it kinda makes sense that powers which offer control lack some in overall damage.

Power classes are still great- esp tech ones now. Biotic powers could prob use better gear mods to give 'em a boost, but they aren't that far behind. It would be nice if biotic detonators prioritized detonating biotic primers instead of just the most recently applied primer- that would help since, aside from vs. shields, they are still the 'best' combo overall.

There doesn't need to be that many changes though; as long as BW keeps releasing lighter weapons that are good, power classes won't ever be that far behind.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Is there any reason to choose biotics over combat classes now?

No, not if you want the most powerful characters.  But if you just like space magic even though space magic classes suck compared to combat classes, then yes.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 01 novembre 2012 - 11:34 .

[Shrakelle]

Fun.

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

so what about the mods (not gear, mods) that increase power recharde speed? increase power damage?

everything you typed is nicely written and presented, but it's not true....right now, the adepts are just as viable/strong/(insert whatever word you want), as the weapon/tech characters....no type of character is overshadowing another type like that...they all have pros/cons, and all can be used on any difficulty level

For the mods, I suppose you're talking about the consumables since there are technically no weapon mods that do what you're talking about.

The "Power Amplifier" will not do a whole lot extra damage and the same type of "damage amplifier" exist for weapons with the exact same stats so this has no effect whatsoever on the conclusion I made earlier about damage.

The "Power Efficiency" will give you a 30% extra cooldown, but with a base cooldown of 8, 200% from loadout and the best options on Warp, it will still have a cooldown of 2.05 seconds. Compared to the 2.22 seconds you can get without the consumable, it's a difference of 0.17 seconds, which is not significant enough to show in-game. Now use a base cooldown of 6.5 seconds instead of 8 and you have a cooldown of 1.66 seconds. Compared to the 2.22 seconds without the consumable, it's a difference of 0.55 seconds. So even with a base cooldown of 1.5 seconds lower than the current value of 8, you can barely manage to cut half a second from the final cooldown. Overall this will help a bit, but it's far from being overpowered and it's with the absolute best conditions possible.

It's easy to say what I explain is simply not true when you can't be bothered to support your opinions with facts. I'm not saying Adepts are useless or that they are overshadowed by other class, only that their powers lack a bit and my suggestions would give them the slight boost needed.

[Titus Thongger]

4 man vanguard team is a unstoppable rape train even on gold

[TheThirdRace]

Titus Thongger wrote...

4 man vanguard team is a unstoppable rape train even on gold

I agree, but the changes I suggested don't affect Vanguards at all and the problem is with the Adepts not the Vanguards...

[Atheosis]

I find many of the biotic classes to be immensely powerful with the right builds/loadouts (regardless of whether other biotics are around). To the people who are saying otherwise I can only say there is something wrong with how you are playing them.

[Malanek]

It's only a few weapons that once they get up to high level start to obsolete biotics. In a team though, combinations of biotics can still hold their own. I wouldn't worry about it too much but for ME4 I would be a little more careful about weapon power creep.